Comments on: Lowest paid should not be expected to bear the cost of recession http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/ hopping along the corridors of power Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:17:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: What would Hayek say http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69923 What would Hayek say Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:05:16 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69923 In space - no one can hear you recycle! Actually its hugely important especially considering the initial cost of getting any resource into orbit, therefore every resource is immensely scarce and valuable - if you can maximise its life and then break it down to be reused in another form, then that process is as valuable as air - given that a breathable atmosphere is the most precious thing you can have in space. The "space" community has actually been one of the leading sectors demonstrating concern about the use of our resources. The first photos of the planet from space had a significant public impact, in a better way than the currently overused cute megafauna images of polar bears on ice. Significant issue of being up there is sustainable atmosphere. Interestingly enough the technology going into submarines has provided some indicators of what is needed (carbon scrubbers etc). Underwater is also another huge area of fun sci-fi, but potentially more realistic exploration within my lifetime.

In space – no one can hear you recycle!

Actually its hugely important especially considering the initial cost of getting any resource into orbit, therefore every resource is immensely scarce and valuable – if you can maximise its life and then break it down to be reused in another form, then that process is as valuable as air – given that a breathable atmosphere is the most precious thing you can have in space. The “space” community has actually been one of the leading sectors demonstrating concern about the use of our resources. The first photos of the planet from space had a significant public impact, in a better way than the currently overused cute megafauna images of polar bears on ice.

Significant issue of being up there is sustainable atmosphere. Interestingly enough the technology going into submarines has provided some indicators of what is needed (carbon scrubbers etc). Underwater is also another huge area of fun sci-fi, but potentially more realistic exploration within my lifetime.

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69919 bjchip Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:19:14 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69919 <i>Our first job after getting up there is to learn how to live and work in space. Deep space. Complete ecosystems and recycling. Minimal energy usage for maintaining the system.</i> So who else here understood that Green principles of sustainability are CRITICAL to the success of space exploration? Never mind "warp drives" and "transporters"... how do you keep a closed ecosystem going for years, even decades at a time, with no inputs and outputs other than energy and heat? respectfully BJ

Our first job after getting up there is to learn how to live and work in space. Deep space. Complete ecosystems and recycling. Minimal energy usage for maintaining the system.

So who else here understood that Green principles of sustainability are CRITICAL to the success of space exploration?

Never mind “warp drives” and “transporters”… how do you keep a closed ecosystem going for years, even decades at a time, with no inputs and outputs other than energy and heat?

respectfully
BJ

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69918 bjchip Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:13:21 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69918 All that Sci-Fi but not involved in the space advocacy movemet... tsk... :-) Cheap Access To Space. respectfully BJ

All that Sci-Fi but not involved in the space advocacy movemet… tsk…

:-)

Cheap Access To Space.

respectfully
BJ

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69917 Trevor29 Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:54:40 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69917 CATS?

CATS?

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69916 bjchip Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:53:28 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69916 JH There is a logic that cuts through your erudite critique. It is the logic of "can I pay for it" . Basics. I have not bought a half-million dollar house because I looked at what the mortgage could get up to and recognized that I can't afford it. All the houses available were over 400K up to a little while ago. I make more than double the median wage. With 4 dependents I can't make the required payments. That is an unsustainably unaffordable market. What it SHOULD be is definitely subject to your critique and I am rather glad you made some of those points, which I Had not heard before. However, the NZ market is still IMHO absurd. A little less so now, but still absurd. respectfully BJ BJ

JH

There is a logic that cuts through your erudite critique. It is the logic of “can I pay for it” .

Basics.

I have not bought a half-million dollar house because I looked at what the mortgage could get up to and recognized that I can’t afford it. All the houses available were over 400K up to a little while ago.

I make more than double the median wage. With 4 dependents I can’t make the required payments. That is an unsustainably unaffordable market. What it SHOULD be is definitely subject to your critique and I am rather glad you made some of those points, which I Had not heard before.

However, the NZ market is still IMHO absurd. A little less so now, but still absurd.

respectfully
BJ

BJ

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69915 bjchip Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:42:04 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69915 Fun stuff. I didn't laugh (though I did smile some). If we want to go, first we have to get out there. Once you are in LEO you can boost out the rest of the way with vastly less "expensive" propulsion techniques. There are ways to deploy the light-sail to reach escape velocity, the vehicles are far less constrained. LEO is halfway to anywhere at all. Man rated access to space is feasible at a fairly low price. Rutan has some good ideas and a passenger carrying re-usable. It can't orbit... yet. Mass driving techniques can push stuff into orbit extremely cheap, it just has to be able to function after a couple of hundred g kick is applied. That isn't as much of a limit as you'd think. LEO is within fairly easy reach of a survivable environment... mostly. Ion drives are in use for very small thrusters on some satellites... station-keeping. They are more efficient (the particles leave at a higher velocity) but they do not scale up easily. Our first job after getting up there is to learn how to live and work in space. Deep space. Complete ecosystems and recycling. Minimal energy usage for maintaining the system. My expectation of "deep space" exploration is that we aren't going to get it from warp drives but from biochemistry and cold storage. The Sci-Fi from "Aliens" not Star-Trek. I don't really care. It is one of those problems I have purposely pushed out of my mind because the first problem is CATS and getting to LEO. THAT buys us time and our kids get to work on the next steps. BJ

Fun stuff. I didn’t laugh (though I did smile some).

If we want to go, first we have to get out there. Once you are in LEO you can boost out the rest of the way with vastly less “expensive” propulsion techniques. There are ways to deploy the light-sail to reach escape velocity, the vehicles are far less constrained. LEO is halfway to anywhere at all.

Man rated access to space is feasible at a fairly low price. Rutan has some good ideas and a passenger carrying re-usable. It can’t orbit… yet. Mass driving techniques can push stuff into orbit extremely cheap, it just has to be able to function after a couple of hundred g kick is applied.

That isn’t as much of a limit as you’d think. LEO is within fairly easy reach of a survivable environment… mostly.

Ion drives are in use for very small thrusters on some satellites… station-keeping. They are more efficient (the particles leave at a higher velocity) but they do not scale up easily.

Our first job after getting up there is to learn how to live and work in space. Deep space. Complete ecosystems and recycling. Minimal energy usage for maintaining the system.

My expectation of “deep space” exploration is that we aren’t going to get it from warp drives but from biochemistry and cold storage. The Sci-Fi from “Aliens” not Star-Trek. I don’t really care. It is one of those problems I have purposely pushed out of my mind because the first problem is CATS and getting to LEO. THAT buys us time and our kids get to work on the next steps.

BJ

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]]> By: What would Hayek say http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69913 What would Hayek say Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:07:30 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69913 Sapient - your comment about BJ laughing at us is probably true. I saw a few year ago consideration of using nuclear fusion to support space travel. Though there is a few issue of what happens when you start to approach near light speeds, that make the whole thing probab;y not feasible for deep space exploration (problem of too much space and not enough human time), which leads me back to interest in quantum and the possibility of bending space/moving from one point to another as a more feasible way to conduct long distance travel. For local travel to the Moon,Mars, Venus we should probably just use our Jetsons scooters :D

Sapient – your comment about BJ laughing at us is probably true. I saw a few year ago consideration of using nuclear fusion to support space travel. Though there is a few issue of what happens when you start to approach near light speeds, that make the whole thing probab;y not feasible for deep space exploration (problem of too much space and not enough human time), which leads me back to interest in quantum and the possibility of bending space/moving from one point to another as a more feasible way to conduct long distance travel.

For local travel to the Moon,Mars, Venus we should probably just use our Jetsons scooters :D

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]]> By: Sapient http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69905 Sapient Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:45:39 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69905 I wouldint approve of using nuculear explosions to propel a ship out of the atmosphere, though i understand there was a proposal for such quite awhile ago. using nuclear to provide the energy for an electricity driven drive would be the logical thing though. Use an accelerator driven reactor and a ion drive in conjunction prehaps :P , or the same reactor for the aforementioned meshed sailess solar-sail, lol, both towards and away from the sun :P . BJ is probally just reading this and laughing at how noobish our suggestons are :)

I wouldint approve of using nuculear explosions to propel a ship out of the atmosphere, though i understand there was a proposal for such quite awhile ago. using nuclear to provide the energy for an electricity driven drive would be the logical thing though. Use an accelerator driven reactor and a ion drive in conjunction prehaps :P , or the same reactor for the aforementioned meshed sailess solar-sail, lol, both towards and away from the sun :P . BJ is probally just reading this and laughing at how noobish our suggestons are :)

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69900 jh Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:58:51 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69900 "All of the Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey findings are based on one extremely simple metric known as a “house price-to-income” ratio. In short, Cox & Co. assume that you can “value” housing markets using this crude measure. The first problem here is that there is no statistical evidence that there is any stable or predictable long-term relationship between median incomes and house prices. Notwithstanding this, Wendell Cox claims, “The [house price to income ratio] in Australia is 6.0, double the 3.0 historic maximum norm and well above levels of just a decade ago.” In fact, the median incomes used for the purposes of creating these house price-to-income ratios are likely to be quite different to the incomes associated with the marginal home buyer (where the median income used in their ratio includes much lower income and higher credit risk households). The RBA has recently published some long-term analysis on the subject across a variety of countries. It is useful noting upfront that the RBA’s estimate of Australia’s house price-to-income ratio in 2007 of 5.5x is lower than the Demographia finding. The second interesting point deriving from ...." http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Demographia-Dogma-$pd20090129-NQTPP?OpenDocument&src=sph

“All of the Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey findings are based on one extremely simple metric known as a “house price-to-income” ratio. In short, Cox & Co. assume that you can “value” housing markets using this crude measure.

The first problem here is that there is no statistical evidence that there is any stable or predictable long-term relationship between median incomes and house prices. Notwithstanding this, Wendell Cox claims, “The [house price to income ratio] in Australia is 6.0, double the 3.0 historic maximum norm and well above levels of just a decade ago.” In fact, the median incomes used for the purposes of creating these house price-to-income ratios are likely to be quite different to the incomes associated with the marginal home buyer (where the median income used in their ratio includes much lower income and higher credit risk households).

The RBA has recently published some long-term analysis on the subject across a variety of countries. It is useful noting upfront that the RBA’s estimate of Australia’s house price-to-income ratio in 2007 of 5.5x is lower than the Demographia finding. The second interesting point deriving from ….”

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Demographia-Dogma-$pd20090129-NQTPP?OpenDocument&src=sph

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]]> By: turnip28 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69899 turnip28 Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:44:23 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69899 Just use Nuclear for space exploration, its a technology that we already harnessed and used. They were tesing Nuclear Rockets back in the 50's the projects got canceled thanks to the nimby.

Just use Nuclear for space exploration, its a technology that we already harnessed and used.

They were tesing Nuclear Rockets back in the 50′s the projects got canceled thanks to the nimby.

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]]> By: What would Hayek say http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69894 What would Hayek say Thu, 29 Jan 2009 04:17:02 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69894 Charged ions could work also - So much of what is being considered today in space exploration has been often covered by sci-fi writers in particular A.C.Clarke. Good to know my school time reading his works rather than Jane Austin is not wasted. - now we just need an engineer like BJ to get cracking with our excellent ideas. Where is he? He should have at least one solar vehicle ready to go by the end of the week for testing?

Charged ions could work also – So much of what is being considered today in space exploration has been often covered by sci-fi writers in particular A.C.Clarke. Good to know my school time reading his works rather than Jane Austin is not wasted.

- now we just need an engineer like BJ to get cracking with our excellent ideas. Where is he? He should have at least one solar vehicle ready to go by the end of the week for testing?

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]]> By: Sapient http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69893 Sapient Thu, 29 Jan 2009 03:57:09 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69893 a americas cup using solar wind? sounds just like "the wind from the sun" by A.C.Clarke, lol. Im not sure if it would work, but i would think it would make more sense to make use of the charged ions in the solar wind by using a magnetic feild to accelerate them and therefore transfer momentum to the ship; as opposed to massive solid sales you could have a massive mesh and probally gain greater acceleration; kind of like a massive ion drive using sparse matter; but not my feild :P

a americas cup using solar wind? sounds just like “the wind from the sun” by A.C.Clarke, lol.
Im not sure if it would work, but i would think it would make more sense to make use of the charged ions in the solar wind by using a magnetic feild to accelerate them and therefore transfer momentum to the ship; as opposed to massive solid sales you could have a massive mesh and probally gain greater acceleration; kind of like a massive ion drive using sparse matter; but not my feild :P

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]]> By: What would Hayek say http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69892 What would Hayek say Thu, 29 Jan 2009 03:44:49 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69892 zero-point energy sounds interesting - though I haven't heard of it. I'm also interested in solar sails for as solar energy source (using the sail to capture energy from the sun) and also as a form of propulsion (sailing on a breeze of radiation pressure). Chance to have fun with sailing ship design and having mock pirate fights in space!! - actually could have sail races in a sort of galactic america's cup. I've had friends working on these for NASA - I do have to admit I can't keep up with their maths (I need an extra brain to even try to be on the beginners level with them sometimes). I'm hopeful we won't wipe ourselves out - we already can do that with current technology and we stubbornly seem to persist:) Which is something I like. We really should worry more about the daleks;)

zero-point energy sounds interesting – though I haven’t heard of it. I’m also interested in solar sails for as solar energy source (using the sail to capture energy from the sun) and also as a form of propulsion (sailing on a breeze of radiation pressure). Chance to have fun with sailing ship design and having mock pirate fights in space!! – actually could have sail races in a sort of galactic america’s cup.

I’ve had friends working on these for NASA – I do have to admit I can’t keep up with their maths (I need an extra brain to even try to be on the beginners level with them sometimes).

I’m hopeful we won’t wipe ourselves out – we already can do that with current technology and we stubbornly seem to persist:) Which is something I like.

We really should worry more about the daleks;)

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]]> By: Sapient http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69886 Sapient Thu, 29 Jan 2009 02:58:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69886 Im much more interested in the implications of if, or if not, we can extract zero-point energy from a vacuum; thats a potentially massive source of energy, and i would much rather have such an energy source on our side before we open the doorway to a posible pandoras box star trek style exploration of space. :P , but then again, with that much energy imagine how fast we could wipe ourselves out :P I remmeber reading that one cubic metre of vacuum could potentially hold enough energy to boil the oceans :S

Im much more interested in the implications of if, or if not, we can extract zero-point energy from a vacuum; thats a potentially massive source of energy, and i would much rather have such an energy source on our side before we open the doorway to a posible pandoras box star trek style exploration of space. :P , but then again, with that much energy imagine how fast we could wipe ourselves out :P I remmeber reading that one cubic metre of vacuum could potentially hold enough energy to boil the oceans :S

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]]> By: What would Hayek say http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69884 What would Hayek say Thu, 29 Jan 2009 02:47:08 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69884 I like the thining that is going on into researching the quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle - whilst I know that at the moment its value only applies at the subatomic level - it does suggest the possibility of being able to travel vast distances through space. Its main use at the moment appears to be in super computing - but it is very exciting and opens up another possible door for moving outside of of planet earth. Very Star trek and stargate. I like your mention of orbital elevators- haven't heard that in awhile. The kid in me thinks it would be fun to have one (memories of reading Charlie and the great glass elevator). Thsi is fun.

I like the thining that is going on into researching the quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle – whilst I know that at the moment its value only applies at the subatomic level – it does suggest the possibility of being able to travel vast distances through space. Its main use at the moment appears to be in super computing – but it is very exciting and opens up another possible door for moving outside of of planet earth. Very Star trek and stargate.

I like your mention of orbital elevators- haven’t heard that in awhile. The kid in me thinks it would be fun to have one (memories of reading Charlie and the great glass elevator).

Thsi is fun.

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]]> By: Sapient http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69880 Sapient Thu, 29 Jan 2009 02:34:43 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69880 I dont think human habitation of space is so far away personally; while there is massive costs associated per ton with transport to space from the earths surface this cost could be cut down significantly through in-situ resource utilisation, with possible facilities being built in an environment with a far smaller escape velocity such as the moon or maybe the trojans. In my eyes, though i am not an engeneer, a small factory capable of reproducing and expanding itself could be placed on the moon and construct using in-situ resource utilisation larger facilities capable of greater feats and eventually construct a human habitable environment, the same facilities being able to be used to construct an orbital solar power system at a major discount. Human travel to space or the transportation of not readily avalible or produced substances could be acheived through the construction of megastructures such as an orbital space elevator, launch loop, or even a electromagnetic ram. Though oviously an orbital elevator is out of the question with present technology and the compresive/tensile strength of availible materials, not to mention the hazards of transporting living things through the van allen belts at such a slow speed, though i suppose the human capsules could detach and use rockets; a ram is not outside our technology and could provide a signifcant saving of fuel by providing the intitial velocity, the launch loop works in much the same fashion but with different quirks and benefits. Lol, Sci-Fi Rant, its been a long time since ive done one of those :P .

I dont think human habitation of space is so far away personally; while there is massive costs associated per ton with transport to space from the earths surface this cost could be cut down significantly through in-situ resource utilisation, with possible facilities being built in an environment with a far smaller escape velocity such as the moon or maybe the trojans. In my eyes, though i am not an engeneer, a small factory capable of reproducing and expanding itself could be placed on the moon and construct using in-situ resource utilisation larger facilities capable of greater feats and eventually construct a human habitable environment, the same facilities being able to be used to construct an orbital solar power system at a major discount.
Human travel to space or the transportation of not readily avalible or produced substances could be acheived through the construction of megastructures such as an orbital space elevator, launch loop, or even a electromagnetic ram. Though oviously an orbital elevator is out of the question with present technology and the compresive/tensile strength of availible materials, not to mention the hazards of transporting living things through the van allen belts at such a slow speed, though i suppose the human capsules could detach and use rockets; a ram is not outside our technology and could provide a signifcant saving of fuel by providing the intitial velocity, the launch loop works in much the same fashion but with different quirks and benefits.
Lol, Sci-Fi Rant, its been a long time since ive done one of those :P .

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]]> By: What would Hayek say http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69879 What would Hayek say Thu, 29 Jan 2009 02:08:17 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69879 Rama II is not a bad book - and Arthur C Clarke was great at being a futurist and sparkign the imagination of possible futures. I blame a.c.clarke and Douglas Adams for my ongoing interest in the possibility of going into space one day (one day...). You could also blame testosterone. If your having trouble gettig hold of either book let me know and I'll see if I can send you a copy. WWHS

Rama II is not a bad book – and Arthur C Clarke was great at being a futurist and sparkign the imagination of possible futures. I blame a.c.clarke and Douglas Adams for my ongoing interest in the possibility of going into space one day (one day…). You could also blame testosterone.

If your having trouble gettig hold of either book let me know and I’ll see if I can send you a copy.

WWHS

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]]> By: Sapient http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69878 Sapient Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:59:55 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69878 WWHS, Thanks. I would much prefer a solid fully backed currency to a fiat fractional reserve currency, i mearly beleive that fractional reserve does not necessarily not have aproper place in the economy, i beleive, atleast presently, that fractional reserve with a high reserve ratio could have a place, but the more i discus the matter with BJ the more i move of the fractional reserve boat :P . I am quite in love with Bj's energy backed currency system, though how it could be implimented is a bit of a hurdle, though i will dedicate some time to it in about a week and a half while im inbetween semesters :P . I went to the library the other day to get out the undercover economist but it was checked out so i got "Rama II", i will try and get on two those two books you mentioned after that (which considering how great a.c.clarke is shouldint be long :P ).

WWHS,
Thanks.
I would much prefer a solid fully backed currency to a fiat fractional reserve currency, i mearly beleive that fractional reserve does not necessarily not have aproper place in the economy, i beleive, atleast presently, that fractional reserve with a high reserve ratio could have a place, but the more i discus the matter with BJ the more i move of the fractional reserve boat :P . I am quite in love with Bj’s energy backed currency system, though how it could be implimented is a bit of a hurdle, though i will dedicate some time to it in about a week and a half while im inbetween semesters :P .
I went to the library the other day to get out the undercover economist but it was checked out so i got “Rama II”, i will try and get on two those two books you mentioned after that (which considering how great a.c.clarke is shouldint be long :P ).

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]]> By: turnip28 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69875 turnip28 Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:22:31 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69875 You are a broken record Toad. None of the guys coming for bailout money are free market people they are corporate facists big difference. As Ron Paul said on CNN to the retarded women yesterday morning the US hasn't been a capitalist country for a really long time. Mark I own a company here in the US my company pays no Tax none, why because its an S corp, you might want to get your facts straight before you make stupid comments like OMG companies don't pay tax. That democrat mis-quote is so absurd when over 50% of business's in the US file as s-corps, s corps don't file corp tax, the profits are taxed as personal tax and the small business still pays payroll tax by giving someone a job. A company pays truck loads of taxes by employing people. Hell in New York City I have to pay an extra 16% over and above the persons salary for the privellege of employing someone. Thats right in the US you PAY the government for the privellege of giving someone a job and you wonder why companies move jobs overseas, where they can escape they privillege.

You are a broken record Toad.

None of the guys coming for bailout money are free market people they are corporate facists big difference.

As Ron Paul said on CNN to the retarded women yesterday morning the US hasn’t been a capitalist country for a really long time.

Mark I own a company here in the US my company pays no Tax none, why because its an S corp, you might want to get your facts straight before you make stupid comments like OMG companies don’t pay tax. That democrat mis-quote is so absurd when over 50% of business’s in the US file as s-corps, s corps don’t file corp tax, the profits are taxed as personal tax and the small business still pays payroll tax by giving someone a job.

A company pays truck loads of taxes by employing people. Hell in New York City I have to pay an extra 16% over and above the persons salary for the privellege of employing someone. Thats right in the US you PAY the government for the privellege of giving someone a job and you wonder why companies move jobs overseas, where they can escape they privillege.

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]]> By: What would Hayek say http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69874 What would Hayek say Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:20:45 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/27/lowest-paid-should-not-be-expected-to-bear-the-cost-of-recession/#comment-69874 Sapient and BJ - been watching the thread and must express admiration for both your comments. I realise you and sapient are probably going to disagree with fractional reserve, but otherwise agree on so much more. It is an area that many (not all) economist are still debating and I can see how both sides have some valid points. BJ you might be interested to read Nial Ferguson www.niallferguson.com and his book "the ascent of money" - he does a good job of covering the history of how modern finance began including a decent section on the 19th (1800's) century experience without fractional reserve and low inflation. Sapient - your comment at 12.50 "This thread makes me realise just how right wing ive become as i apply increasing levels of logic and learn more about the world." It has been the pursuit of logic that has taken me along a similar path and yes it is about caring about society - deeply. A big part of my work is in trying to move from a feeding people fish, to teaching them to fish. Sometimes there is a need to provide fish, but being but building a resilient community that can adjust to incremental change and shocks is a long term better solution. I would say that we shouldn't forget the importance of ego/id/thymos as a driver for human behaviour and that it is important to satisfy those part of our self. Economics does not have all the answers and is still learning but it sure is an interesting place. Don't know if you have had the chance to read the undercover economist yet, but I also recommend Tim Harfords follow up book "The logic of life". Really recommend it and you don't need to have read the undercover economist to follow it. Good luck

Sapient and BJ – been watching the thread and must express admiration for both your comments. I realise you and sapient are probably going to disagree with fractional reserve, but otherwise agree on so much more. It is an area that many (not all) economist are still debating and I can see how both sides have some valid points.

BJ you might be interested to read Nial Ferguson http://www.niallferguson.com and his book “the ascent of money” – he does a good job of covering the history of how modern finance began including a decent section on the 19th (1800′s) century experience without fractional reserve and low inflation.

Sapient – your comment at 12.50 “This thread makes me realise just how right wing ive become as i apply increasing levels of logic and learn more about the world.” It has been the pursuit of logic that has taken me along a similar path and yes it is about caring about society – deeply. A big part of my work is in trying to move from a feeding people fish, to teaching them to fish. Sometimes there is a need to provide fish, but being but building a resilient community that can adjust to incremental change and shocks is a long term better solution. I would say that we shouldn’t forget the importance of ego/id/thymos as a driver for human behaviour and that it is important to satisfy those part of our self. Economics does not have all the answers and is still learning but it sure is an interesting place.

Don’t know if you have had the chance to read the undercover economist yet, but I also recommend Tim Harfords follow up book “The logic of life”. Really recommend it and you don’t need to have read the undercover economist to follow it.

Good luck

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