by frog
It was with great pleasure this morning that I awoke to the news that President Obama has formally ordered the closing of the Guantanamo Bay prison within a year. Within hours of his swearing in, his chief of staff had executed his order suspending all military trials at Gitmo for 120 days while he worked out the formal policy.
There is no doubt that the Guantanamo Bay prison and all the violations of international law that it represents is the most visible stain on the reputation of the US. Obama has now begun the long clean up of the wreckage left behind by the Bush administration.
We cannot see the rendition and torture of innocents although their stories keep coming out. We cannot really see the illegal wiretapping of American citizens and the desperate attempt to pass legislation protecting the complicit corporations. We can, however, see the images of prisoners of war, re-labeled enemy combatants in violation of international law, paraded before the cameras in manacles and orange jump suits to what we now know for certain was illegal torture.
Thank goodness this dark chapter is coming to an end. I don´t know what is going to happen to those few genuine prisoners of war at Gitmo who may indeed present a threat to the West, but I am more confident than ever that they will be dealt in a far more transparent and expedient manner.
One further stroke of the pen will really make me happy. The restoration of habeas corpus, which may require an act of congress, would bring the US back into the tradition of western liberal democracy. It was the single biggest step the Bush administration took towards dictatorship. In a showdown with Bush the US Supreme Court finally guaranteed the Guantanamo detainees their writ of habeas corpus last June, but if I recall correctly the anti-terrorism laws still in place in the US grant the president the power to ignore this right if s/he sees fit. It could all happen again so easily.
Published in Justice & Democracy by frog on Fri, January 23rd, 2009
Tags: bush, Gitmo, guantanamo, habeas corpus, Obama
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
He’s also ordered the CIA to close secret bases overseas where similar detentions took place. Fantastic news and an obvious early step for Obama to take. Let’s hope he doesn’t stop there.
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Great Book on Gitmo by an English journalist. Called ‘Bad Men’ (I’ve forgotten the author’s name), but it seems the US was offering $5k (@8x av. Yearly Income) for ‘suspicious arabs’ in Pakistan, post the 2002 war in Afghanistan.
Naturally these were found in abundance, and make up the majority of the Prison Population there
Recommended reading for sure
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Very good news indeed, Valis. I haven´t seen a full report or even today´s paper, just the reports on international television. Let´s hope he doesn´t stop here but gets out a mighty broom…
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I am astonished you have the guts to post today, given the disgraceful behaviour of Sue Kegley today.
I was appalled to hear Sue her this morning more or less endorse the executions in China of the Sanlu executions. So much for the Green’s liberal credentials.
yet again, the Greens are exposed as a bunch of middle class fanatics who are happy to endorse execution if it fits their particular prejudice.
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Gah, bad editing, but you get my point. the Green party has to unequivocally condemn the use of the death penalty in the SanLu case, or be tainted by Kegley’s fanaticism yet again.
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TomS
Is this what you are referring to?
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2009/01/23/124598a617e2
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From Keith:
“The Government and Fonterra should speak out strongly against the death sentences imposed on two Chinese men for their role in contaminating milk, says Green MP Keith Locke.
The Green Party welcomes the conviction of some of those responsible for the contaminated milk, but opposes the imposition of death penalties.
“The death sentences are a symbol of the problem, not part of the solution,” said Mr. Locke, Green Party Foreign Affairs spokesperson.
“They show the harshness of the regime towards anyone who embarrasses it, whether they are real criminals, whistleblowers or dissenters. Many Chinese knew the milk was being contaminated but said nothing for fear of repercussions from those in authority.
“Fonterra could not get any action from local officials when it first discovered the contamination. There was only movement, some time later, when the matter became public. Problems will continue as long as China remains a one-party state where corruption flourishes and officials hide behind a wall of secrecy.
“New Zealand companies have a vested interest in promoting more democracy because the opaqueness of the Chinese system creates many problems for their operations there. Fonterra, with its 43% stake in San Lu, has a particular responsibility to argue against the death sentences, and for greater openness and accountability in Chinese life.
“New Zealand should also speak out in support of those brave Chinese who, at great cost, are trying to bring about democratic change. We should be openly alongside the more than 300 Chinese citizens who signed the pro-democracy ‘Charter 08’ last month, many of whom have since been arrested and harassed.
“Our Government doesn’t do New Zealand business or the Chinese people any favours by keeping quiet about the lack of human rights in China.
“Helping China become more democratic will do more for New Zealand business than the preferential trade agreement New Zealand granted the regime last year.”
The Green Party has always opposed the death penalty. Is there a transcript of what you heard Sue say? Written reports are often not reliable.
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TomS
The statement by the Party that Valis refers to is being reported in today’s Herald.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10553177
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Perhaps Kieth ought to have a word with Sue then.
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This is terrible news, the Obama Messiah is about to release a whole bunch of terrorists back into the world.
Will you guys still be as happy when they start killing innocent westerners again?.
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No, we’re talking about hundreds of people the US cannot prove have anything to do with terrorism, could not even manage to bring charges against in a military court, and yet have been held for years without access to their families or lawyers. And of course there’s the torture and several have been documented to now to be unsuitable for trial anyway as they’ve lost their minds.
Can always trust big bro to get it wrong in a big way.
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big bro also needs to know that Obama’s closing Guantanamo, not releasing everyone there. Needs to read more.
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It ain’t closed yet.
And suspending trials of so called “innocent” people delay’s their release.
Or is he worried that any people found guilty would prevent him from closing GITMO?
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Z-T: I know you are a neo-con, but do you really in your heart support detention without trial or military trials where the presiding quasi-judicial officer has little or no high level judicial experiece?
Even if it takes a year to close down Gitmo, it will shorten the non-judicially imposed “sentences” of the vast majoirity of those whom the Bush administration detained there.
There are probably those who should be put on trial, and may well be convicted. But if it is done through a transparent and publicly accountable judicial process I have no problem.
I do have a major problem with the Gitmo detention without trial provisions though. Anyone accused of any offence, even terrorism, should have th4e opportunity to have the evidence against them presented in a court of law and the opportunity to call evidence to refute the allegations agaisnt them.
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TomS said: …the Green party has to unequivocally condemn the use of the death penalty…
Sue Kedgley did precisely that on OneNews tonight, with specific reference to the SanLu convictions. She said that those who were criminally responsible should face severe penalties, but that the Green Party did not support death sentences in any circumstances.
TomS: – some other media you may have seen/heard may have not reported this part of Sue’s statement on this. But please don’t blame Sue – she has attempted to make it very clear that the Green Party does not support the death penalty in New Zealand or anywhere else in the world.
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If they’re taken to the United States, they can still be tried. And if they are found guilty, they can still be imprisoned. The only reason they were taken to Guantanamo in the first place was so that they could be toturted and given corrupt trials, rather than proper trials.
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Toad – I do not agree with detention without trial (and processing), especially (absolutely) in the case of refugees, such as the ongoing situation in Australia.
However, many of these people were captured in combat situations, and the handling becomes far more difficult if a ‘prisoner of war’.
There have been over a thousand in GITMO, and the numbers have steadily decreased down to now about 240. It’s not as if nothing has happened, although I agree the time has taken far too long.
But that is not the point I’m making. The point is that Obama might well close down GITMO by transferring the prisoners elsewhere. Will all the Democrats then go “problem solved”?
Also, we should indeed worry about the innocent. That is being done. It is our responsibility to worry about the guilty, and letting ruthless murderers out for political reasons rather than striving to deal with facts is also wrong.
The American government is charged at keeping Americans safe. Do you think Americans have no enemies, and that they only lock up good guys?
That would surely be as naive as believing every-one there is a bad guy.
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As for the Green Party condemning China for capital punishment, no doubt your previous press releases talking about how deplorable Fonterra and subsidiaries behaved to create this problem in the first place was used as evidence of the shame China must feel from all such international commentary to ultimately justify the death penalty.
Good work.
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You’re serious aren’t you.
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Zen… unlike you, I have been to Guantanamo. A long time before they put the prison facility in, but I’ve been there. The entire point to this exercise is that people who are found GUILTY can be incarcerated in any Federal facility… but the facility at Guantanamo is not regarded as part of the United States and the laws of Habeas do not apply there. They can be kept there as long as the whim of the Vice President lasts… (at least that’s how the previous administration interpreted the law) and make no mistake it was the VICE President’s idea to use it that way.
Most people don’t realize that. They don’t realize that the President could have ANYONE simply disappear, by executive order, and there is no Habeas that applies to anyone declared a terrorist in that system. Which could as easily include you, or me, as anyone who might sensibly be regarded as a danger to the country.
No trials. No evidence. No court. Public pressure finally forced the military courts to take up the cause of justice, that and several rulings by the Supreme Court that went against them. They still clung to it.
He does the right thing and the right wingnuts spin so hard they get dizzy, trying to make it wrong.
BJ
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Big Bro-
Why worry about the Gitmo prisoners- isn’t Ahmed Zaoui going to bring about the end of western civilization?
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Also gone by lunch-time (John Key time that is) is National’s commitment to closing the wage gap across the Tasman.
Now its funding the tax cuts by cutting or freezing (real cuts) public sector pay. For the big bosses a future Higher Salary review will grant a huge catch up with the private sector (MP’s included) so this will only really effect doctors and nurses, scientists, police and military (some of whom will now realise their folly in voting National).
Already the character of heart and wisdom in the 2 new regimes is being revealed. Has John John Key learnt nothing about the public sector cutbacks of the Depression years?
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Dont encourage them Al…complications have set in, letting them loose, lets the truth x 300 loose, gives them (nominal) human rights – brings the torturers(& masters) under the possibilty of prosecution.
Ow – and who else gave the Chief those powers? Ow again…
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Hi BJ: Zen… unlike you, I have been to Guantanamo. A long time before they put the prison facility in, but I’ve been there.
That’s nice. Is it relevant?
If we ignore all the points I made that you and others might agree with (oh, I see you have) can we focus on what I said about these people having a different status than American citizens (much like refugees in Australia having a different status, but they are an entirely different category to suspected terrorists)
My point being GITMO might cease to exist, but prisoners of GITMO may not. We’ll wait and see what Obama does about it, other than possibly close the facility.
Valis: I’m generally only half serious. In this particular situation, I’m not offering my opinion on the death penalty (which I do not support) but on my opinion on how the Chinese government thinks. Do you understand the difference? If you were speaking of something else, you’ll have to be more explicit.
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Zen
You’re missing the relevance. I should have explained better.
Guantanamo Bay is NOT part of the United States of America. That isn’t entirely obvious… having been there rubbed my nose in it.
The people there are NOT regarded as having rights in the same sense as people who are in the USA. The population is almost entirely military.
Wherever the prisoners are moved to, the excuse that the previous administration used to avoid actually trying to convict them of crimes or releasing them, goes out the window.
respectfully
BJ
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For those who missed it, Jon Stewart’s surreal puppet sketch, Gitmo’s World, is definitely worth a watch. Bizarre yet insightful.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=216560&title=gitmos-world-death-to-america
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ZT, I know the difference, and also when someone is implying not so subtly that the Greens are responsible for the outcome.
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ZT – the treatment of prisoners of war is very explicitly defined in international law. It is a simple matter. That is why Cheney went to such lengths to redefine them as enemy combatants, in defiance of international law, so he could do with them as he pleased. No rights whatsoever. If, however, he had brought them onto US soil, US law would apply. Hence Gitmo. Moving the prisoners anywhere but Gitmo changes everything. That is the whole point of my post and the source of my happiness. Although I do agree with whoever stated that seeing Cheney in chains at the Hague would be pretty good too…
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Book is by notable Lawyer Clive Stafford Smith. Check it out.
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Couple of links to US sites discussing this issue from the inside:
http://blog.amnestyusa.org/
and the obligatory FB page:
http://apps.facebook.com/causes/126
[Amnesty International USA Inc]
Seems that freedom of speech has rebounded very quickly post-George Dubya’s departure, for which we can all be truly grateful.
Anyone who missed it, the Independant reported the full text of the Inauguration speech. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/full-text-of-obamas-speech-1451915.html
This is worth reading carefully, if only because so much of it has been misrepresented already, as were his policy stances pre-election by the media in the USA and elsewhere.
Wikipedia has a good entry on Obama’s policy hardlines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#Political_positions
Happy, happy, joy, joy ….
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BJ: Guantanamo Bay is NOT part of the United States of America.
Ah yes, obvious to everyone who has looked into GITMO. Perhaps a few people out there don’t realise this. And also, not so obvious that the US of A will be the final landing place of these people. There are many other countries in the world – not passing them on may have been the most responsible thing to do. As Bush said:
“I’d like to close Guantanamo,” .. “But I also recognise that we’re holding some people that are darned dangerous, and that we’d better have a plan to deal with them in our courts.
and as Obama said:
“It is more difficult than I think a lot of people realise,” Mr Obama told the ABC TV network.
“We’re going to get it done, but part of the challenge that you have is that you have got a bunch of folks that have been detained, many of whom may be very dangerous…”
It turns out some terrorists HAVE killed many innocent people, and the US of A may have caught some of them.
VALIS: Yes, I was not trying to be subtle. Glad you caught that. However, I was not trying to put blame exclusively on the NZ Green Party. When I said: “shame China must feel from all such international commentary to ultimately justify the death penalty.” I meant the weight of a variety of international commentary like this would lead the Chinese to this inevitable (given the culture) conclusion. Do you disagree?
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Also, I mentioned several hundred detainees (actually thousands if you count Abu Ghraib) have been tagged and released back into the wild. Here’s an interesting article that suggests some of those people have gone back to their natural habitat. Terrorist Union confirms jobs waiting.
Interestingly, of the 255 people still left, they are pretty sure 110 would be as good for the world as like releasing rats on Kapiti Island, 50 are axis-of-evil neutral and just need new homes offered (their original habitat now too dangerous for them) and the balance could be either pest or environmentally friendly, and require further research.
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ZT, I agree that Chinese psychology might work that way, not that it is inevitable. I disagree with the accusation (“Good Work”) that Green press releases played a role in the outcome of the trial.
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Well, the US Senate gave George the go-ahead to proceed. This means that potential war-crimes and torture victims might implicate current Powers in their Human degradation and Human Rights Failure – “War Crimes” does not apply in most cases as these people(spuriously suspicious) were sold to the US from Pakistan for $5k per head. Were not combatants but ‘plotters’….
They are ‘dangerous’ because of what they may reveal verbally to the blinkered world – mind you, if they weren’t actively anti- US before – they may well be now…
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Maybe you’re right Valis. It might be foolish for me to think anyone actually reads those press releases, or that they would have any effect
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I doubt that any serious investigation into the practices of prisoner interrogation conducted within Abu Graib or Guantanamo would validate what has been done in the name of the USA, in the name of ‘protecting the world’ from ‘terrorism’.
Not in my name, it wasn’t!
Amnesty International and various UN organisations have been putting pressure on Bush’s administration since around early 2003, to shut these places down.
The US bases in Iraq and Central America were running like their own personal fiefdoms, creating and interpreting law in their own desires, without regard to international ethical or jurisdictional standards. This kind of military despotism has seriously destabilised the Persian Gulf region, and despite Obama’s best efforts, we’ll see the effects of ‘the Bush Wars’ for some time to come.
The USA has used it’s Security Council veto to block all UN resolutions pertaining to this activity, right up until new President Barack Obama took office on Inauguration Day.
I hope that Obama can continue the momentum he has developed; I fear that vested interests within the USA and global corporations will be trying to impede or stop him with all the force they can muster.
We can only bear witness to what is, at this point in time; and congratulate him for the work he has pledged to do, which he is ticking off his list one item at a time.
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Any of you care to tell me why closing Gitmo is a good idea again?
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5594272.ece
I hope that you enjoy your smug satisfaction long enough before these scum decide to kill more innocent westerner’s.
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Yep; – there is a whole book on it. Better put the details in one post….”Bad Men” by Clive Stafford Smith – look forward to your review.
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Yeah BB. These scum were already outside Gitmo, before it’s closure, so what does your comment have to do with the price of eggs?
Gitmo represents the failure of the rule of law and the constitution of the US. Closing it merely forces the US authorities to do what should have been done from the outset. Convict the ones that deserve it and release the ones that don’t. The Bush administration has been shirking it’s duties for years, the lazy sods, hiding behind a bunch of ill informed lawyers. So bad has their work been that I am sure that some real scum that ought to be locked away ends up getting released because they didn’t get due process under the law. That will be Bush’s fault, not Obama’s or even Gitmo’s.
Smug I am not. Relieved I am. My position on Gitmo hasn’t changed a bit.
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Frog
I see, so in your world you can excuse these terrorists of all crimes simply because they were imprisoned by Bush.
You really should try separating the message from the messenger.
BTW, care to release my post in the Minimum wage thread?
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Frog: “Gitmo represents the failure of the rule of law and the constitution of the US.”
big bro: “You really should try separating the message from the messenger.”
To what end? The message is so bad, it doesn’t matter who the messenger is. How can you support the trashing of the Constitution?
When Sapient posted this: http://blog.greens.org.nz/2009/01/26/should-voluntary-tanning-standards-be-made-law/#comment-69646, I though of you, big bro, and this illustrates why perfectly.
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Valis
We could all save a lot of time and heartbeats if you and 90% of the Greens simply admitted that they hate the USA and capitalism.
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Well the Yanks were very concerned about our ‘anti-nuke’ policy whilst I were there. Disturbed that ‘we’ didn’t love em anymore.
I spent a lot of time reassuring people that the vast majority of NZ’ers do not Hate anyone. Generally support the US – hey, we shared the Vietnam debacle together.
Gitmo is such a huge mistake – it risks putting the US in the dock at Geneva – this has more to do with right and wrong, than love and hate. Though the victims may disagree.
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Very funny big bro. You don’t care about trashing the US Constitution but we’re the ones who hate the US. Orwell would love it.
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BB, my dislike for the USA has reduced substantially over the last week, thanks to it starting to behave like a responsible world citizen again.
There is quite a long way to go before I’ll uphold the US as a paragon of international virtue, but at least the decline into authoritarianism and disregard for international law appears to be starting to be reversed.
So probably a lot less comments from me critical of the US – my criticisms related to the excesses of the Bush/Cheney administration, not to the US people or the US Constitution (although I do have a problem with the bit about bearing arms).
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Toad, that’s way to sophisticated for the likes of big bro. “You’re either for us or against us”, you know.
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Toad
“BB, my dislike for the USA has reduced substantially over the last week, thanks to it starting to behave like a responsible world citizen again”
Well there’s a surprise!
Funny thing is that my love for the USA has decreased dramatically over the last week.
Given that you dislike a country if it has a right wing gov’t does that mean you have no time for New Zealand now?
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It is not a matter of being right-wing, BB. Reagan was probably more right wing than Bush, but (somewhat to my surprise) his administration actually did some very positive things for the US and the world at large.
By contrast, everything Bush touched turned to the brown smelly stuff and brought the US into international disrepute and his own Presidency into unprecedented domestic unpopularity.
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