by frog
Greetings from my holiday lillypad. While I spend the next couple of weeks hopping around the beautiful Marlborough Sounds, I may be out of touch for days on end. As it is, I am hanging on from a very precarious Vodem connection.
I would like to wish all those who celebrate the real reason for this Christmas season a very Merry Christmas. It is also the time to enjoy a great summer holiday. I intend to do just that. If I’m not around for a while, talk among yourselves and play nice!
Published in Society & Culture by frog on Sat, December 27th, 2008
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
“Clean” coal?
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/12/26/tennessee.sludge/index.html
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and if ’tis news/info ye be seeking..?
..i have just lodged/posted my mornings’ labours..
..some twenty-something stories/links..
..this is one of my favourites from the day..
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/top-10-reasons-to-become-a-new-radical/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Enjoy your break frog and may 2009 be good to you.
Trevor.
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That coal sludge slip is frighteniing!
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/12/26/tennessee.sludge/index.html
And Gerry Brownlee is trying to encourage more coal fired generation in New Zealand?
Trevor.
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http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/5221269/ban-on-new-gasfired-power-plants-repealed/
Gerry is partly right – we need more generation. But he is very wrong when he says that the new generation needs to be coal or gas.
At least the Maori Party opposed the repeal.
Trevor.
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Gerry thinks coal is sexy. Gerry will polish coal so brightly, he’ll be able to see his face in it. We, the public will be dazzled by the bright light of black gold and Gerry will be King Midas.
“Gerry is partly right” – nah. Gerry is entirely, completely and utterly Right.
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http://caseyresearch.com/dImage.php?i=1230393689-Image1
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But greenfly, gerry is right to think coal is sexy; all he has to do is sit on it and the value increase dramaticly! cut and polish the product and you can wear it on a ring
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Aw Geez Frog: Mope bitch and scramble.
Merry Whatever dude – enjoy them islands – get to Nelson, Kerikeri, Takaha if you have the Patriotism – no rush getting back – they all still correctin your holiday.
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In some parts of the world, where good children get wonderful toys in their Santa sacks, bad kids get a lump of coal. I’m guessing that as a child, Gerry was a rotter.
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I loath coal for munchez or perhaps its the look ! “no singharas! Trrrrp! Trrrp!
Here’s good one..
http://www.geocities.com/greatglobalist/munchez.GIF
Now still im in the deep with tadpoles!
Someone from Argentina really said \Lets Go \ but the Protectionist media threw me out from MYBLOGLOG..Heresssssssssssssssss Linda!
Linda Bustos – MyBlogLog
com/ greatglobalist/ munchez. GIF http: / / www. geocities. com/ greatglobalist/ showy. … com/ greatglobalist/ investieren. JPG. Social Rank. January 23, …
http://www.mybloglog.com/buzz/members/postergirl – 64k – Cached
See Fellas ,The Party Boss has priorities ,this biz is gold wont tan looks ,but still …………………….
Note-: European Protectionism has been judged around below 20% in Pakistan what you call the old british economy ‘maitres and NGO’s ever met them……. Strange? All the while American women are lifting skirts for businmess at 3rd class hotels! Very Strange???
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Mate – can you share that dope around?
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this story from todays’ batch is kinda interesting..
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/rap-music-originated-in-medieval-scottish-pubs/
(who knew..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Apparently Phil U has invented a new type of punction: the interrogelipsis, or ..?..
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And apparently I can’t spell punctuation.
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this is from todays’ round-up of stories..
..and is choice..!
(it also includes the lion-reunion vid..
..which is kinda mindboggling/very cool..)
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/10-incredible-animal-videos/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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What’s good enough for the USA is good enough for us…. hasn’t that been National’s unwritten rule?
Guess who has COOLed off?
http://www.countryoforiginlabel.org/
respectfully
BJ
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http://editorialcartoonists.com/cartoon/display.cfm/59705/
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Merry Xmas Mr Frog! http://www.mobiles.org.nz
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Hope you had a Hoppy Xmas Frog.
May the New Year keep water in your pond.
bjchip right on the button!!
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By the way…. is anyone as hopping mad as I am, that a NZ plane flew on something that was grown in soil where millions starve?
If it grows; food can grow in it’s place.
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Kelpie, You’ve just disproved the old saying that ignorance is bliss.
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Kelpie,
While i am unable to speak for others on that particular matter, i sure as hell dont have an ethical dilemma in the first instance and think more should be produced in the second. We have far too many people and we have more wants than we do goods; it is only fair that those with the ability to get those goods get them, its natural selection on a nation-wide scale. Human life is not sacrocant, that concept is hopelessly naive, get over it.
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one of my favourites’ from todays’ round-up..
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/getting-past-the-protein-myth-that-keeps-people-from-quitting-meat-and-dairy-2/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Is there a bit of Capt. Oates there Frog? “I may be gone for some time….”
People eat meat because we are still primarily carnivores I t’ink Phil – but the link is valuable, cos the meat industry uses more power than is sensible for us to not diversify.
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I had always thought that we were primarily consumers of plants rather than of meat, or more specificly that our primary source of energy and sustinance was fruit, followed by vegies, insects, and in a long fourth place the animals conventionally considered meat.
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Don’t forget fungi and there are animal products that aren’t meat (milks of various sorts) and honey can’t be overlooked. Meat is well down the list. DFo you eat a lot of insects Sapient?
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Greenfly,
Yes, how could I forget the delicious fungi!
To be honest i was thinking more along the path of what we have become specialised in eating as we have evolved further away from our rodent ancesters than the foods we have taken up comparitavly recently.
A corrected model prehaps? Though ovously it varies across cultures, localities and time my estimation would be ;
Fruit
Vegies
Insects
Fungi
Honey
Meat
Dairy
Though of course since the pastorial and monolithic revolutions certain foods have gone up the list.
re insects; i make it a habit to try new experiances. While it does not make up a main stay of my diet it did for our evolutionary precursers. Besides, nothing like eating insects in ones sleep or as one bike to work/study
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and the funny thing is that list has almost been turned upside down as of recently
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Sapient – there is a figure (I’ve seen it!) for the amount of insect we each inadvertently eat throughout our lifetimes (clinging unseen to the undersides of lettuce leaves etc) It’s a significant one.
Interestingly, we seem to have gone full circle, if you begin with ‘our rodent ancestors’ and have become omnivorous, gobbling down practically everything, stationary or mobile, that we can fit in our gobs. Your comment about the up-side-down-ness of the list sadly reflects the similar state of our health. If we ate more like the rats, we’d be better off! Spare a thought for the geophagists, btw. and if they seem an unlikely, far removed tribe, think Haiti – 2009.
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Greenfly,
.
.
Yes i too have seen this figure, thus the comment
Its not so much that we have gone full circle in our diet but rather that we never stoped being omnivorous and that is what has allowed us to continue our evolution rather than becoming specialised and leading to an evolutionary dead end. Im my opinion it is only because of our lack of specialisation that we have accualy survived (that was certainly a reason for the survival of the first mammels, which were the rodents) and because of that lack that we are able to utilise tools and as such develop advanced inteligence
Kind of rings true with the economy also, if you become specialised you have the potential to make much more profit in that environment but once the situation changes in such a way that you no longer have a high paying job your pretty much screwed, lol, while the generalist can survive in many different environments even if it does not excel in said environment.
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Sapient you purportraitor of terrible spelling – sorry don’t have any smiley logo’s – but thanks for the Laugh – I’ll never see that word the same way again – Wishing you (all) a great year – tempted to post a link on the phase the moon has just begun – keep the faith; a lot of outmoded things are disintegrating, this can be a possibility for greatness, or a terrible insecurity – depending on how one feels.
Did our forbears not crawl out of the water after spotting something more tasty ashore? Or was it all the sharks and pirahna’a lousing up the day? – can’t remember now – but certainly one of the great human qualities is adaptation…in my short 50 years I’ve seen diets change out of all recognition – and for the better.
No I was reading an article on Phil’s site and I remembered being taught (a long time ago now) that we were primarily designed to eat meat, or best suited to converting it into energy.. I wouldn’t think it true today – though I have had the odd Vegetarian prescribed meat as an antidote to various illnessess..best mark
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Mark,
, but i think the thing with meat is we can convert more of its calories per unit than plants since our appendix is no longer what it used to be and thus we can no longer access the large amounts of energy in cellulose. But i could be wrong.
Im no nutritionist, though i did flat with two for a while
Indeed, adaption is king, or rather; adaption makes kings
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You flatted with 2 nutritionists?
Wha ‘appen – get fed up? lol
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one of the picks from todays twenty-something stories..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/green-energy-in-2009-predictions-and-things-to-watch/
(‘solar bags’..who knew..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Is this blog a link whore site for silly phool?
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Yes but according to the food tables put out by the ministry of health, vegan foods like nuts and lentils have more than enough protein for our RDA. Protein deficiency is in any case not an issue in the west. Diabetes, obesity and cancer – diseases associated with high fat animal products – are.
If you compare protein not per unit weight but per unit cost (a far more relevant measure for those on low incomes), rolled oats peanuts and lentils are far better value than cheese or battery eggs (the cheapest of the animal products).
I actually took the egg producers federation to the advertising standards authority for claiming falsely that battery eggs are the cheapest protein source, but those toothless wonders did not do anything about it.
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here is todays’ ‘teaser’ from the banquet table of news/information/humour etc..
..that is offered each and every day..
..at whoar.co.nz..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/best-videos-of-2008didya-see-the-one-about-the-rat-brained-robotswhoareh/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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True Kiore; A lot is ancient ritual -you know, kill the beast and eat it – you heroes…then you wander around common places where people shop and look at the foods for sale – lamentable progress – and in the days of microwaves, there is no reason for the ‘three meals’ ethic.
Is Education then the Key here?
regards
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todays’ ‘green’-pick is..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/are-you-excited-yet-about-wi-tricityi-know-i-am/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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We are omnivores and are hence highly adaptable.
And having come to the conclusion that “sustainability” means anything and hence nothing I suggest that “Adaptability” is the surest means of achieving what was originally intended by “Sustainability”. (the ability to handle change.)
A few thoughts: Very few fish are vegetarians. It is hard work selling a vegetarian diet to Eskimos. On the hand Polynesians exist mainly on fruit and fish.
As omnivores our ideal diet is moderation in all things – including occasionally moderation.
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hmm; since the oil companies went mad we all got a new Moderation hey? Lot of people moderated right out of their houses – never mind – food round here can get real moderate too…at one time I had to forgo all food and lived off steamed rice and vitamins – scary notion, being told not to eat – but adaptable as all get out – lived on electricity almost…but that’s Gulf War Syndrome and another story.
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Why does ASB commision reports like this?
Wellington NZ’s top spot for families
http://www.stuff.co.nz/4809102a19716.html
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it’s called hype or pr, marketing or village networking, spin lies and Real Estate – houses in the States r goin 4 half price!
‘Top Location’ is a subjective, specious notion, yet it falls within Marketing Bounds – the old selling ‘ice to eskimoes’ syndrome…sorry old man – would you care to extprapolate on Asbergers? Sounds Fascinating. Beside which, we need you I reckon. regards m
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“Yes, we should also oppose the firing of rockets into Israel, but they don’t justify Israel’s horrendous assault, which has killed more than 300 people and maimed several times more. “Israel’s collective punishment of the people of Gaza, and the targeting of civilian institutions, contravene Geneva Conventions, as pointed out by the UN General Assembly President, Miguel D’Escoto Brockman.
We should oppose firing rockets but shouldn’t expect the Palestinians to pressure Hamas to stop and thereby stop the Israeli assault. You can also draw the inference that this is a position that doesn’t accept the right of Israel to exist or the state of NZ (for that matter) on a similar basis.
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=42oPP_QMq3w&eurl=http://www.gazatalk.com/node/86
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this might interest some of you..
http://whoar.co.nz/2009/the-top-10-global-warming-stories-of-2008/
(memo to mcshane:..read..!..learn..inwardly digest..!..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Condoleezza Rice, having observed that more than 300 Gazans were dead, said:
“We are deeply concerned about the escalating violence. We strongly condemn
the attacks on Israel and hold Hamas responsible.” Someone should ask her to
comment on teenage knife-crime, to see if she’d say: “I strongly condemn the
people who’ve been stabbed, and until they abandon their practice of
wandering around clutching their sides and bleeding, there is no hope for
peace.”
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The phosphorus bombs being detonated over Gaza are a fascinating aspect of the ‘conflict’. It’s illegal to use them against civilians – the hideous burning they cause to human flesh continues until the phosphorus is exhausted, often burning to the bone – but Israel is merely using them to create ‘smokescreens’ to allow their troops to infiltrate ‘unseen’ – so that’s a great relief to us all – especially the Palestinians who might be beeneath them when they explode.
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Smoke does ok for smokescreens – wp is more for genocide – but then, when Israeli sewage is designed to flow into their water tables, ain’t no mystery…
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Mark,
Aspergers is a psychological disorder similar to those on the autistic spectrum, there is presently a large amount of debate over if, or if not, it should be included on said spectrum.
Aspergers is characterised by mild to severe social impairment and lack of associated mental impairment. Individuals with aspergers generally have problems interacting with other people and picking up unspoken (non-verbal) communications such as tone, body language, etc and will often fail to comprehend or abide by the social taboos, often breaking them at inapropriate times. Because of this they often withdraw from much social interaction and tend to take comfort in more ‘foward’ things such as academic disciplines; most frequently the natural sciences or engineering, it is comparitivly rare to see such an individual trespass into the arts.
Individuals with aspergers generally display behaviours of intense interest in small or seemingly trivial areas of interest, this when applied to the sciences often leads to insights that would not otherwise be obtained.
Often individuals with aspergers will present with above average I.Q., sometimes significantly so, this may even present as a semi-savantism with the individual excelling in a couple of narrow feilds. It has been proposed that this is because some of the developmental problems associated with aspergers prevent the retardisation (my word for it) of the individual which is a standard part of the developmental process (it is thought by some that most are born with certain savant level abilities and that in childhood development and socialisation we loose said abilities).
Some individuals with aspergers as children will be able to use their increased mental abilities to compensate and grow to account of some for the difficulties they incounter and as such may be seen to grow out of the disorder in adulthood (in my youth i would score 45/50 on the autistic quotent, i now score about 35, still well within the extreme end but significantly less than a score of 45).
Aspergers is thought to have a genetic component and to share, partially, this component with the other autistic spectrum disorders. It is thought that our developing intelectual society has lead to individuals with aspergers, wheather they know it or not, seeking out other such individuals with which to associate and peer, leading to families with high occurances of said disorders.
That is a relativly brief discription
, its a very complex and varied disorder. Individuals like myself whom accually retain an interest in the complexities of social interaction and as such choose the path of the arts is, unfortunatly, relativly rare 
.
(in otherwords im too lazy to write more)
I havint included much about the social problems, but wikipedia has a relativly good summary of such : here : and as always you can search “aspergers” on wikipdeia for a rather drawn out, detailed, and yet incomplete description of said disorder
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This is one of those areas where the Green party should keep the opinions of some of its members to itself.
This is NOT a winnable argument on either side. Taking a side puts us immediately into strife with the other side and is not justified politically OR morally. Yes, the Israeli’s are using force. Yes, Hamas is using force. Both are killing innocent people. Hamas has long experience in using the local population as human shields. The Israelis cannot avoid being killed by ignoring the rockets and suicide bombers. Not fighting would be good. ON BOTH SIDES!
Personally my PERCEPTION is that Israel has been exercising restraint in spite of rockets from Gaza, that have been regularly falling from their skies, and that some predetermined point was reached, or the Bush presidency with its known foreign policy limitations and preferences, was ending. Either way, Hamas and Israel have a problem. Hamas is unwilling to recognize Israel’s right to exist and as a result, Israel is unwilling to recognize Hamas as having any right to exist. The civilians are being used as shields and are caught in the middle.
I don’t reckon there’s an answer. Carter came close.
Now we have the war-on-terra as a backdrop. I don’t see any good outcome. I don’t see any good result from taking sides. I don’t see any side being pure, or right, or justified, and I don’t see any reason to tell anyone there what to do.
respectfully
BJ
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The answer; Alien Invasion; Mount a christian invasion claiming all of the lands for christianity, a second crusade. Cause the muslim and jews to unite with each other against the common enemy
.
Alternative answer; Neutron bombs
Alternative answer; U.N. appointed interim government and the formation of one single state with no difference of laws between jew and muslim, a democraticly elected mmp parliment and constitutional safeguard against religiously based political parties
If only it were so simple, personally i prefer the second approach; so much more simple
Lets not take a posistion against hamas as a nation; atleast we know that israel wont fire its missiles at us.
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“Israel is believed to be using controversial white phosphorus shells to screen its assault on the heavily populated Gaza Strip yesterday. The weapon, used by British and US forces in Iraq, can cause horrific burns but is not illegal if used as a smokescreen. ”
“The Israeli military last night denied using phosphorus, but refused to say what had been deployed. “Israel uses munitions that are allowed for under international law,” said Captain Ishai David, spokesman for the Israel Defence Forces. “We are pressing ahead with the second stage of operations, entering troops in the Gaza Strip to seize areas from which rockets are being launched into Israel.” ”
……………
Of course Hamas could stop firing rockets.
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Notice Keith Locke is calling for Israel to stop their assault.
The key point is that Israels assault is a function of Hamas rocket attack (someone explain that to Keith Locke).
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A case of political leveraging: 1. get above 5% (where only a tiny part of that is for Keith Locke and his red scrum) 2. keep dissenters out by defining “green” in whatever way suits. 3. promote genuine green issues at election time, but carry on regardless after the election.
4. don’t disclose campaign finances.
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Bruce Sheppard speaks Green (better than red-greens):
“We have over that time become the prisoners of consumerism and as a result we have sold our lives into the slavery of life long debt. As a result of this imprisonment we have, as a people, become subservient to the next snake oil salesman politician that offers us an extra dollar or two in our back pocket.
This unmasking of the stupidity hidden in the complexity will result in us rediscovering our humanity and will eventually rewrite the values by which we live. It will all be for the better and if we don’t throw our toys around like spoilt little children and remember we are adults, some of the good things in the world can be preserved.
The alternative to learning a few simple lessons is anarchy. More of us understand that this is not a good way to live than the stupid who don’t care either way, so it wont happen. But the speed with which we learn the lessons will determine how long the drudgery goes on and more importantly regardless of the economic mess and how we feel about what today we regard as drudgery, we might regard tomorrow as liberation.
So here are some lessons:
It is not all about me or you, it is about us. We will relearn to think about our community, and rediscover the richness of building relationships. We will cease to work long hours doing meaningless crap, and have more time for our families, friends, neighbours and others.”
http://www.businessday.co.nz/blogs/stirringthepot/2008/12/24/tasks-for-the-christmas-break/
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Does the word “Overkill” translate? The UN tried to stop this and the US exercized Veto.
Why take sides? – it ain’t our argument but suppressing freedom of speech is an intolerable notion.
How to kill a Hamas Leader? You know his home – his car, his routines even – but lets just drop a 1 tonne bomb on his apartment and kill the whole family and anyone else handy.
Make no mistake this is a punitive operation – waged in Concert with a Very played down Media Campaign.
I have consistantly opposed anyone sending an army into a Civilian area – unacceptable collateral damage (why the UN wanted to stop it too!).
But some folk have rules for themselves and different ones for others.
Sapient gave the nail a good tap when you suggest that those people Share That Land.
Been a while since I’ve weeded out those belonging to other religions round here – in fact we don’t do that at all do we?
Why? The infamous id? Thanatos?
Nothing to look up to, or forward to in this sort of operation.
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Sapient: Thank you for the kind and illuminating Feedback – I realize I can research asberger’s online (and will have a look round).
As someone who has suffered Gulf War Syndrome since 91 – I find it more helpfull to hear from individual sufferers, as little understood conditions are not often well described from ‘outside the box’.
You may well find a support Group amongst the best of Things.
Accounts for the Brilliance you have there hey – will we be takin horses on this Crusade? I like horses…regards Mark
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Does the word “Overkill” translate? The UN tried to stop this and the US exercized Veto.
………
Another way to stop would be to stop firing rockets. Remember also that Hamas charter is to wipe out Israel (and Hamas is an elected government), so the Israeli’s are sending a serious message.
It is over to the Israelis to decide how many rockets is too much.
Another thought. If the Israeli state was disoloved would the Greens welcome Israeli refugees?
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Open the other eye
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Maybe you have a better military strategy?
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Mark
I suggest, in all charity, that you are the one here who is using only one.
Put in personal terms. You and your neighbor have a blood feud. Your family has beaten them pretty badly but left them alive and stopped shooting. Your neighbor continues from behind his children, to shoot at your children with his 22. How long can you restrain YOUR family as some of them are injured?
This hasn’t been genocidal on the Israeli side. Some there have taken advantage and some there wish it could be, but it has not been. The hatred runs deep. Israel has not sworn to wipe out the Palestinians.
If you have an alternative strategy that would truly stop Hamas leaders and their Rockets without killing any of the women and children they use as shields, and which does not guarantee the death of the Israeli who attempts to arrest them I would like to hear it.
The UN could no more stop Hamas than it could prevent Srebenica. It has limited power to do anything. It would take the elimination of the Hamas organization, or an invasion of a foreign army and troops on every street-corner to stop the rockets.
I don’t expect the Israelis to just allow perpetual killing of their citizens. It is an elected government. It will become more, not less, militaristic if its population is under continuous attack.
respectfully
BJ
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JH/BJ – I don’t think there is a successful Military Strategy available to cure this – healing starts when the fighting stops.
I can easily see both sides points, more than you realize – it’s why I think the whole thing is a tragedy.
And you ask me how to stop a fight like this?
If I knew I’d be there and not here…
What I do see is an escalation in the radicalization – the drawing in of neighbouring countries (and some who live far away) and the potential for real trouble on a vast scale.
The fact that War Profiteers will be pouring as much petrol on this as possible – means that a settlement without Arms must be made.
It took us 2 world wars to come up with the UN – and people who don’t respect that do not have my support.
They are only ‘toothless’ because people will it so.
So much for ‘Freedom’ and ‘Rights’ hey?
Take them off anyone and everyone winds up losing – I hope I’m terribly mistaken…regards etc
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“They are only ‘toothless’ because people will it so.”
They are toothless because of reckless idealism, not the will of the masses.
“It took us 2 world wars to come up with the UN – and people who don’t respect that do not have my support.”
Anyone who blindly supports the UN after they stubbornly refused to learn from events like Sebrenica and Rewanda is as guilty as the ba#@ards who DIDN’T pull the trigger to stop the rape, murder, and genocide of hundreds of thousands of inocent people.
The UN should stick to giving food to hungry people, its about all they can do with any credibility.
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bj says “This is one of those areas where the Green party should keep the opinions of some of its members to itself.”
I don’t believe so … unless you are referring to your opinion?
(Is this another case of: “You can take the boy out of New York, but you can’t take New York and USAn “Military Thinking” out of the boy”?)
As a “retired person” (!) I’ve been monitoring the situation on Radio and various TV channels, and reading widely on the Net all day and every day, while keeping in touch with various Peace Activists …
As a mother (approaching “grand-motherhood”) I have shed tears for the Palestinian children, and as a social scientist, wondered about the legacy this treatment will leave on the adults of the future in that region.)
In contrast, with the demands of a work and parenting you could well be somewhat out of touch with the nuances of the situation? … AND, most importantly, your critical opinion does not give due weight to the Core Principles and thinking of the Greens.
Don’t knock us BJ …
We Kiwis do have a reputation in the World. We know what we believe in (and it ain’t NY thinking and it certainly ain’t Israeli thinking …) and that is probably one of the main reasons that we have our reputation!
We also have an association with Palestine … through the ANZACS in and after WW2 (and, yes! I’m old enough to have been the confidant of one of those returning ANZACS … who became our neighbour for more than forty years … and could speak to a small girl-child about experiences and feelings that he was unable to share with adults.)
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“We Kiwis do have a reputation in the World. We know what we believe in (and it ain’t NY thinking and it certainly ain’t Israeli thinking …)”
And it ain’t Green thinking either!!
Sorry eredwen, while NZ has contributed its share of leftist thinking to the world, I think you are overstating the collective consciousness of the nation more than a smidgin!
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Eredwen
If you have only a relationship with Palestine and not with Israel, you have chosen a side in this and CANNOT make peace or even bring the two sides to a table to discuss it.
That is why New Zealanders must not choose a side.
If WE spend what little political capital we have remaining to us jousting with this windmill we deserve anything and everything that happens as a result.
That is why we Greens must NOT choose a side.
How either side in this can be favored by the core principle of non-violence is lost to me. The choice of violence was made long ago. It was made when the Israeli state was born. Both sides have grudges that are older than most of us.
The description of this as blood-feud remains apt. Nor at this point, do I personally expect the Israelis to stop until they have made certain that the rockets will stop, whether Hamas wishes to stop or not.
respectfully
BJ
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Re Eredwen’s response:
The “we’re just ordinary Kiwis” claim = negative.
Keith Locke is merely showing that he has a limited tool for addressing the Middle East situation (ie) a simple Marxist model of the conflict. Keith and Co are a dead weight to the Green Party.
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On the question of proportionality of the Israeli response:
“proportionality shouldn’t be the only criteria. Effectiveness should also be considered. This is the logic behind suspended sentences and the 3 strikes policy. ”
http://debategraph.org/Flash/fv.aspx?r=8987&d=2&i=1
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One of the key problems in the Arab Israeli situation seems to be:
” Land bought by the Jewish National Fund was held in the name of the Jewish people and could never be sold or even leased back to Arabs (a situation which continues to the present).”
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
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Keith can’t step outside Policy – pointless turning up here to attack him – remora-like criticism is wasted Shunda, unless of course, it makes you feel better (at any price?)…
Gotchya talkin anyway – I was beginning to feel a bit effete arguing over which food is best in a world where hundreds of millions get to choose between nothing and nothing else!
People have obviously got their leanings (just read the posts)
I’m goin to support eredwen – cos she has some feeling for people on the ground there (as I do). I think many are so detatched/inexperienced they still think Military action a good thing.
Ask anyone who’s been there (if they’ll talk to you).
Also I get the strong impression many are too young to remember the terrible injury the US did itself in Vietnam – precisely by playing this game – not only lost but damaged themselves for generations.
I have the news on now – reports of attacks on Mosques, multiple civilian deaths….I support what the Israeli’s are trying to do – yet its like watching a 5 yr old fly a 747.
Rockets or no, the theft of land will go on – you know that OBLaden said 9/11 was in support of the Palestinians….
So we know whats happening now – my concern is about the consequences of all this Military chauvinism – it’s a land grab (again) nothing else.
If it was about rocket attacks then yes – I could mount an op to stop that with minimum fuss. Think about it will you?
Most Countries have a Name like “Island” or “Continent”.
The Palestinians live in the only place on earth called a ‘Strip’
regards etc
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Happy new year to all.
If you will excuse some self indulgence, the conflict in Palestine/Israel leaves me with the feeling as ex-South African that “but for the grace of God”, that could have been us. You will recall that following the end of the cold war Nelson Mandela and FW De Klerk were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 for “for their work for the peaceful termination of the apartheid regime, and for laying the foundations for a new democratic South Africa” while Yitzhak Rabin Simon Perez and Yassir Arafat were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994 “for their efforts to create peace in the Middle East”.
Both regions were at cross roads after the cold war and had the opportunity to step away from their respective conflicts and take an alternative route, one did but the other continued on the road of conflict. Why? Each had years of racist conflict and hate. Was it leadership or lack thereof? Was it possibly the fact that the parties in South Africa had no longer a “big brother” that they could rely on to support them and they had to face reality – in which case the ongoing unquestioning US support for Israel did the Israelis no favour. I don’t know, but I see no end to this conflict. The Israelis have the weapons but the Palestinians have the population time bomb on their side and this can go on for ever.
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” you know that OBLaden said 9/11 was in support of the Palestinians….”
And oh how the Palestinians celebrated in the horrific deaths of thousands of people, dancing in the streets as I recall.
Oh but thats ok cause they have a good excuse to celebrate death and carnage don’t they.
You claim to be anti war, yet history shows people with your attitude have prolonged more wars than they have stopped.
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“Keith can’t step outside Policy”
Policy can’t step outside membership.
Membership is slanted badly (stacked) and limited in its thinking.
The membership would feel very at home in John Mintos organisation (if they aren’t already).
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A free market (free entry) in land (and a lot less religion) may help.
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Thanks Mark!
bj
This is not “a blood feud” its a land grab that has been going on for over sixty years now.
Israeli settlers (who speak with Australian, American etc accents, many of whom undoubtedly hold dual citizenship) “needing” more and more of the former “Palestine” to support their desired lifestyles …
A picture is worth a thousand words. Check out the changes in the maps of that area of the World over that time.
How “absolutely primitive and barbaric” of these Palistinians to behave as they do now.
“How could anyone support Hamas?” … I believe I would IF I was in Palestinians shoes.
eredwen
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eredwen
How can you be so blinded by hatred of America and her Israeli allies?
How can you as a supposedly peace loving person justify the actions of the terrorist Hamas group?
How can you ever support a group whose stated aim is the annihilation of all Israeli’s and the State of Israle
The selective morality and hypocrisy of so many Greens is breathtaking.
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“This is not “a blood feud” its a land grab that has been going on for over sixty years now. ”
The Greens are taking sides and (although purporting to be anti violence) are supporting Hamas military action by calling for a unilateral cessation by Israel. In this episode the Israeli reaction is a function of Hamas rocket attacks.
As far as a solution goes the Minto flavored Greens have one solution and that is Marxism.
This booklet by Jews For Justice in the Middle East lays the situation open but it also suggests (my initial thoughts) that a free (to entry) market in land (other things being equal) would help dissolve the issues.
The problem with Green policy is a stacked membership making policy in the Deep Cave.
http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html
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Thank you Johan -South Africa is proof that even the most precipitous situation need not descend into murder.
Eredwen; – yup. Luckily I have a broad spectrum of Media Access and have seen many interviews from ‘the other point of view’ – something that some of these kids need to do. Listen.
Talk can be worse than cheap.
Anyway – I see two UN schools have been blasted by tank fire – that’s 40 less ‘human sheilds’ for the Palestinians to use – and every world leader is coming out and calling for a halt to this murder – even Tony Blair….well well well.
Yes Hamas is already radicalized out of all reason – my goodness! And they got elected! How could this have happened?
Long as ‘they’ are the ‘terrorists’ and ‘we’ the noble saviours this BS will go on.
thanks jh – very good point too!
regards Mark
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bb
“How can you be so blinded by hatred of America and her Israeli allies?”
By “America” I assume you mean the USA?
My only sibling and his family are citizens of the USA and have lived in Southern California for over 30 years. They and their friends and colleagues think as I do on this topic.
There is no such thing as an homogenous USA.
As
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eredwen
And your point is?
I note that you do not deny being anti semitic.
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As most people on this blog will know I beleive that might makes right, so I dont really care who wins so long as it does not inversly affect my goals. Of course in a world as connected as this it is probable that it would strongly affect any goals i may have and as such i have an interest in the best possible outcome, that and the challange of accually acheiving said outcome.
Earlyer in the thread i, semi-jokingly, highlighed three possible approaches to the situation; the first using psychology, the second using military, and the third using diplomacy. All would accheive the goal if implimented succesfuly, but only the diplomacy has any significant chance of working in the first instance and enduring in the second.
What we need is a strong U.N., not a flimsy boad of beurocrats like we presently have. We need a U.N. that is willing to intervene in a meaningful manner. Hamas will not stop the attacks, there is likley genuine people within the structure but, as with any power structure, there will be those drunk on power whom wish to retain such intoxication; they wont stop the attacks until they have the rug pulled out from under them. Israel is not doing itself any favours in attacking civilians, all that will result in is more people willing to do more extreme things in the name of the cause. All the various tactics used by Israel will do is further aggrovate the populas.
I think that we are at the point where short of genocide a mutually agreeable answer is out of the hands of the two parties, neither party will accept any less than complete domination.
We need a strong third party to intervene and force the changes, force the formation of one state, one democratic body, one nation with many peoples. The answer is to get the U.N. to do something for once and enforce changes and take responsibility for that which its members have created; not through sanctions or disapproving words but through force.
And before BB claims anti-sematism; im not a bigot, i hate everyone equally without reguard to ethnicity, birth, sex, gender, sexuality, or religion. I discriminate only on ability
.
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bb (and anyone else who may be interested)
My “point is ?” (Actually, “a few of my points are”
1. “America” is a big landmass of two continents. The USA is only one part of that landmass.
2. Within the part of “the Americas”, currently called the USA, there is a large population, with a diversity of views.
Support for the current behaviour of Israel can NOT be assumed to be accepted by the majority of USAns.
3. Israel has carefully and cynically timed this latest massacre to fit into the last days of GWBush’s Administration, before the new USAn President takes office.
4. Me? “anti Semitic” ?
NO, I’m demonstrably not “anti Semitic”!
(A “Semite” is a member of any of the peoples supposedly descended from Shem, son of Noah [Concise Oxford Dictionary 1990] …
That’s the “Noah” of “Great Flood” fame in the Jewish Torah, the Old Testament of the Christian Bible, AND the Muslim Koran of the Palestinians … The values systems of these supposedly disparate groups all come from the same location and the same root.
(THAT IS THE GREAT AND TRAGIC IRONY OF THIS CURRENT SITUATION.)
(Are you beginning to catch on to the absurdity of all of this?)
The term “Semite” includes Jews Arabs, Assyrians, Phoenicians, etc … in fact all the players in the current conflagration. (Though many of the current so called “Israelis” would by now have the majority of there genes from other sources such as their European / and other colonial ancestors.)
The new “Israel” was the “Land Grab” of the land of Palestine … an already inhabited and fruitful Palestine … from the Palestinians by the Brits etc to use as a place for the survivors of the “Holocaust” that Hitler didn’t manage to snuff out before the inevitable surrender of the Third Reich. This massacre of mainly European Jews was a European thing.
It had absolutely nothing to do with the inhabitants of Palestine.
NB: Do please Google the various maps of that land from pre WW2 to the present day!
(Personally, I think much of the the blame for this current situation, and all those that led up to it, lies with the hormone testosterone and our inability as a society to teach our boys how to cope adequately with its effects … individually and collectively!)
In summary:
If you really need to “label” people, including me:
I’d say that I am definitely a “humanist” and a “humanitarian” as far as the species Homo sapiens is concerned, AND I have equal concern for the survival and well being of the other species on this wonderful Planet that we call Earth, thus I am also an “environmentalist”.
In current terms, the simplest way to describe my values system is to say “I am a Green.”
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Eredwen
Beg your pardon? Shall we discuss the history, and thus get into a meaningless and ultimately fruitless discussion of who hit who first and who stole what from where when?
The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and pulling out the settlers and preventing NEW settlers doesn’t sound much like a “land grab”. Their odd placement of the boundary fence wants explanation, but it is unlikely that new immigrants to Israel were responsible. You are taking a side here Eredwen and it is NOT right for us to be taking sides.
If you don’t think it is a “blood feud” you are less familiar with both Hamas and the conservative block in Israel than you need to be. True moderates and peacemakers have to be extraordinarily angry with both sides.
Since war, and the killing of civilians is not EVER part of Green policy or principles, where is Keith’s condemnation of the rocket attacks on the Israelis?
I don’t see any stance we take favoring one side or the other as being useful. They’ve been fighting over that patch of land since Moby Dick was a minnow…. the Green principle about non-violence has been out the window so long that they’ve forgotten what peace looks like.
If we apply our principles to ONE side but not to the OTHER (that is in effect, what we do when the rockets go unremarked but the retaliation gains public scorn and disapproval), we ourselves are espousing genocide.
Does Israel have a right to exist?
Does it have a right to defend itself?
How many dead civilians is too many?
How many unpunished acts of terrorism against civilians is too many?
No solution that includes Hamas being ABLE to continue to launch rockets is going to be accepted by the Israelis at this point. That has implications about what Israel will do. No solution that includes acceptance that Israel can continue to exist will be accepted by Hamas.
Which side is being unreasonable here?
respectfully
BJ
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Eredwen
I can look at maps of “the Holy land” which show a Jewish state existing there in Roman times. Who “grabbed” the land first?
This is MEANINGLESS! The situation on the ground today is what it is TODAY, not 50 years ago and not 2100 years ago. Calling this a “land grab” on the basis of what was true 50 years ago has no explicative nor healing power whatsoever. All it does is take sides. Learning to live together is what these people must eventually do.
Giving up neutrality is a mistake for NZ and a mistake for the Green party of NZ.
BJ
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Thank you Eredwen; Yet responding to professional hecklers may not be needed.
A large number of my US pals refuse to concede that those businessmen in downtown DC have anything to do with them…in fact I had people pleading with me, not to believe that all US citizens were so insular sanguine and venal.
Ten Thousand Rabbi’s marched on the UN Building in NYC last year – to protest that the state of Israel runs against Talmudic Law and should be disbanded.(This incidentally is part of what Hamas means by not recognising their state)
This Event did not even make the MSM News – neither does the Huge peace movement in Israel. Their last Prime Minister who made peace was assassinated.
Yes the Pommies have a lot to answer for – they could have given New Zealand to the Jews, and there’d be no trouble.
As it is, the ancient land and people of Palestine are being systematically torn apart to the cheering of (insert favourite insult here).
cheers Mark
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As a part Semite myself (different Tribe) I resent the fact that one of the Ancestors came down off Mt Hebron and said; “I’ve just been talking to God and He Says that all this land is ours for ever!” Jeez Wayne!
God’s only known Real Estate deal to date. And I thought that Ho Ho Ho season had just finished…
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See what you miss by not reading the newspaper for a couple of weeks? A war! Still, I have no doubt that it bears all the hallmarks of the previous stouches, and the ones yet to come.
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They say “a picture is worth a thousand words”.
These speak volumes!
http://www.palestinianmothers.com/forum/topics/the-other-side-of-the-story
eredwen
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bj
Do read more carefully!
The land grab I speak of was at the end of WW2. The Allied Powers of the time regarded it as their right to decide that large numbers of the surviving European Jews could go to Palestine … It got them “out of the way” … THAT is both “racism” and “colonialism”.
(Mentioning the history of Allied “Colonial” attitudes and their consequences is NOT a criticism of later residents!)
However, it does need to be acknowledged that decisions made on their behalf by “outsiders” then, have led to the current situation for the Palestinian people.
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Eredwen
This is not “a blood feud” its a land grab that has been going on for over sixty years now.
Israeli settlers (who speak with Australian, American etc accents, many of whom undoubtedly hold dual citizenship) “needing” more and more of the former “Palestine” to support their desired lifestyles
This does not discuss the Balfour decision and implies more recent land-grabs than that at the end of the second world war. Your succeeding post was clearer and I answered that as well. Why isn’t the whole place part of Turkey ? Going back in history that land has had more “owners” than a well-used dollar coin. The issue is what is happening now.
I am not impressed by the perception of disproportion that your link shows. That is the nature of asymmetric conflicts. If you want Israelis to lob small rockets into Gaza in response to the small rockets lobbed into Israel, with random killings on both sides…until Hamas gets possession of larger rockets with uglier warheads… well, I thought better of you than that.
You are buying one side’s propaganda. I am telling you that buying EITHER side’s propaganda is a mistake. Both sides have to stop and the nature of Hamas by their own words, is that they will not stop short of delivering nuclear weapons into the heart of Israel… that is, you are advocating on behalf of people with genocidal intent. That’s what Hamas itself says it wants. Israel should have acted sooner and more decisively to bring an end to illegal settlements. It should have done more to aid the Palestinians who are struggling to survive in Gaza. It SHOULD have prevented Hamas’ rise through acts of kindness and rebuilding… but it did not.
There is as much truth in the suffering of the Palestinians as there is in the threat to the existence of Israel, and if it is to end the people who manage to end it will be the ones who DID NOT TAKE SIDES!!!! I am practically shouting at you now, to re-examine this decision in light of the EFFECT it will have rather than your own personal feelings.
How, if both Israeli and Palestinian are Semitic peoples, if both have their origins in the region, was the decision to return them to it “racist”? Stick with “colonialist”. Amusing though the notion that Israel is somehow a colony of Britain is (they do NOT play Cricket), it is a “western” nation in a region that is not used to western ideas.
respectfully
BJ
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Quite right too – if they played Cricket they’d have a notion of fair play and decent behaviour.
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The thing with humans is that we can’t just do what DOC does (ie go in and cull the non indigenous). The socialist notion seems to be to dissolve most of the prevailing power structures so that “all men are brothers”…. and if they argue Papa Locke will have his grey coats knock their heads together.
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So you are in favour of the bombing of mothers and children JH?
http://www.bubbleshare.com/album/47671/
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Ahhh Beria you Romantic old fool
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The Palestinians have no moral authority, yet the left in New Zealand can’t wait to side with them. Why? Hating on the US, yet again?
Hamas want the destruction of Israel. A proportionate response would be the destruction of Gaza, which Israel is capable of, but don’t attempt.
As BJ says, taking sides with those preaching genocide does not make you morally superior.
The only way out of this is for *both* sides to abandon the idea of destroying the other. Support of one side over the other is support of genocide.
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A conflict of this nature that extends over generations has the effect of radicalising both parties and obliterates the middle ground. Hamas in Palestine and the Zionist parties in Israel becomes stronger and gain popular support – do not forget that Hamas won the elections, as did Likud and then Kadima. Children grow up with the perception that the “others” are evil and out to kill them and a mentality of kill or be killed arises. Racism comes with mothers’ milk. In both camps one finds peace movements that are unable to break the cycle of violence.
It is hard to imagine a Palestinian peace movement being able to convince the Palestinian population that Israeli settlements, walls and controls (and now war) are not to be resisted by force –even when this means desperate measures such as suicide bombs. Imagine growing up in a desolate refugee camp, in an overcrowded area, with no or little opportunities, subject to constant attacks with no alternatives that you personally as an individual can seek to achieve.
It is similarly difficult to imagine that anyone will convince young Israeli males who serve three years as conscripts (females 18 months?) that the refusal to recognise the right of Israel to exist is (in theory at least) aimed at the existence of an state in which only Jews (and a small minority of Arabs) have citizenship. Their perception is that the refusal to recognise Israel is directly linked to their survival – if Israel fails they die, so it is not surprising that they will take whatever measures are required to prevent this.
I think the Palestinians have suffered a great injustice since 1948. This has been exacerbated by poor leadership in the past and also in the present. While the 2 state solution that was agreed to by Arafat and Israel was not all that the Palestinians desired it did provide them with something better than they have now. Their situation has rapidly gone from bad to worse since then with further settlements on th West bank etc.
This war will not resolve anything, the IDF cannot permanently occupy Gaza without considerable resources and a drain on the economy. They can perhaps temporary halt the rocket attacks but these will continue.
The best minds of our time have not been able to resolve this issue so I doubt whether my solution will do any better, but here goes. In my view the two state solution, going back to the Oslo accord has to be enforced by the UN. This will cost Israel its settlements on the West Bank but these are illegal in any case. As for the rocket attacks, Hamas’ radical stance is popular because it represents the only effective opposition to Israel, once a Palestinian state is established, it is “helped to its feet” through aid and some social and material welfare is obtained the population will (hopefully?) move away from its need to have a “protector” in Hamas and become less radical. There will be a period where Israel will need to restrain itself from retaliating when provocative attacks are made.
But as I said, these type of proposals have not worked in the past so I am pessimistic that this conflict will be resolved any time soon.
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Icebaby said “Hamas want the destruction of Israel. A proportionate response would be the destruction of Gaza”
No IB, the proportionate response would be for the Israelies to want the destruction of Gaza.
You are not thinking logically.
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If you ignore such a threat as mere words, you’re more stupid than I thought.
Should Israel wait until Hamas gets their hands on bigger guns? Missiles? Nukes?
Surgical strikes make more sense. Proportionate to the threat.
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eredwen Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 7:20 pm
They say “a picture is worth a thousand words”.
These speak volumes!
[guts]
……………..
That is the price Hamas is willing to pay for the ability to fire rockets at Israel. When the assault started did Hamas agree to stop firing rockets?
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# Stuart Young Says:
January 8th, 2009 at 9:06 am
So you are in favour of the bombing of mothers and children JH?
http://www.bubbleshare.com/album/47671/
……………..
Is Hamas concerned that firing rockets from populated areas (80/ day? at one stage) will bring on an air attack from Israel (its sworn enemy with knobs on) and if so what is it doing to protect its woman and children?
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“{The History and “Morals” of Ethnic Cleansing
By Victoria Buch
I arrived in Israel 40 years ago. It took me many years to understand that the very existence of my country, as it is today, is based on an ongoing
ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.}”
Must be one of those Commies..
“It wouldn’t make a bit of difference if Hamas surrendered tomorrow and handed-over all its weapons to Israel, because the problem isn’t Hamas; it’s Zionism, the deeply-flawed ideology which leads to bombing children in their homes while clinging to victim-hood. Ideas have consequences. Gaza proves
it.”
Mike Whitney
Darn Commie – I repeat: When 10,000 NYC Rabbi’s march on the UN to declare the State of Israel against Talmudic Law : – that’s pretty well good enough for me.
Funny how completely this demo was censored on the modern ‘Infotainment’ News at 6 hey? regards
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“It wouldn’t make a bit of difference if Hamas surrendered tomorrow and handed-over all its weapons to Israel, because the problem isn’t Hamas; it’s Zionism”
Prove it.
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Don’t have to…History does. They swap a Tank for a Bulldozer in times of Peace. That’s why it’s got so rad.
I still reckon the Pommies should have given NZ to the Jews in 1946 – no trouble here, and think of the economic advantages!
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So if a foreign power was bombing Christchurch, killing hundreds of children, you think that NZ should turn the other cheek?
Why do you think that the Palestinians should unilateraly cease fire and not the Israelis? Why do you place the blame for the conflict only on the Palestinians and not the Israelis?
Why do you think that the conflict is an opportunity to score political points and to advance your greens are communists agenda? How come the conflict doesn’t sicken you to the stomach and horrify you. I know it does me, I wouldn’t try and score a political point against other parties when there are children dying.
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Mark Says:
January 8th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Don’t have to…History does.
…………
You merely quoted an opinion.
====================
“Why do you think that the Palestinians should unilateraly cease fire and not the Israelis? Why do you place the blame for the conflict only on the Palestinians and not the Israelis?”
………………..
I presume there was point where it was understood “you stop firing rockets or we will…”.
Hamas refused to stop the rocket attacks once the attack
started.
The Israeli attack (in this time frame) was a function of Hamas firing rockets [the opposing opinion is that they would have done it anyway ... Mark].
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“1.Why do you think that the conflict is an opportunity to score political points and to 2. advance your greens are communists agenda? 3. How come the conflict doesn’t sicken you to the stomach and horrify you. I know it does me, I wouldn’t try and score a political point against other parties when there are children dying.”
1. Hamas is using it’s dead to get sympathy; it could have capitualted as the rocket attacks had no military advantage.
2. I refer to “Minto-Greens (infact).
3. Same answer as 1.
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jh – your purpose in firing your ideological ‘rockets’ into the Frogblog is?
You’d be warmly received over at Kiwiblog, where the kind of insistant, self righteous style you adopt is commonplace. I think your provocation is wasted here. Few would consider engaging with you worthwhile (IMHO).
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Don’t blame me: reds jumped ship and hid under the green leaf. Green will always be the brand colour of nature.
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Red and green are sadly indistinguishable to the colourblind.
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>>So if a foreign power was bombing Christchurch, killing hundreds of children, you think that NZ should turn the other cheek?
What do you recommend? Firing skyrockets back at them?
Although Hamas seems to think that’s the clever option…
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“Surgical strikes” – all care taken, clean, operation, painless, patient recovers and is forever thankful. Nice analogy. You’re living in a dream world.
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Explain that to Hamas. Whether Israel is good or bad is beside the point. The point is Hamas must have known Israel would respond and that its people would get killed.
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>>Surgical strikes
If they wanted to flatten the Gaza Strip, they only need hit the red button.
As I said, the only way out of this is for *both* sides to abandon the lifetime ambition of destroying the other. Support of one side over the other is support of genocide.
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Congratulations to the thousand anti-war marchers who walked their talk in Wellington today…absolutely great!
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IceBaby writes: “If they wanted to flatten the Gaza Strip, they only need hit the red button.”
This is very true (and a lot more than Gaza would be flattened). It is also a very good reason why Israel (and the US, Russia, China, France, UK, India, Pakistan, North Korea) must get rid of their nuclear arsenals. One button pushed in anger or by mistake really can mean the end of large parts of the world.
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“The point is Hamas must have known Israel would respond and that its people would get killed.”
Exactly. They couldn’t even wait and see if the election of Obama could have worked in their favour.
Radical Islam = ideology ahead of survival.
The Palestinian people should revolt against this Hamas leadership before any more of their young get killed.
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“..frog Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
See what you miss by not reading the newspaper for a couple of weeks?..”
haven’t you stopped staining your fingers..yet..frog..?
as for predictions..?
(after soaking in (non-staining) media for a few years now..)
..i’m with/para-phrasing chrissie hynde here..
..’it’s too late..
.it’s soon time to bend over and kiss our arses goodbye..
..so we had may as well enjoy ourselves/have a good time..
..in the meantime..’
phil(whoar.co.nz)’
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“..frog Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
See what you miss by not reading the newspaper for a couple of weeks?..”
haven’t you stopped staining your fingers..yet..frog..?
as for predictions..?
(after soaking in (non-staining) media for a few years now..)
..i’m with/para-phrasing chrissie hynde here..
..’it’s too late..
.it’s soon time to bend over and kiss our ars*s goodbye..
..so we had may as well enjoy ourselves/have a good time..
..in the meantime..’
phil(whoar.co.nz)’
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# Mark Says:
January 8th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Congratulations to the “thousand” anti-war marchers who walked their talk in Wellington today…absolutely great!
……………
The problem with Keith’s speech is that there is a disconnect between what the public think and his set of assumptions which are held by a narrow group and cannot be elucidated openly.
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Kieth and co: the bug that stunts the rose bush.
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If it’s green it will get something. Species are v-e-r-y opportunistic.
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The Green Party has stem borer.
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That would be you would it? Narrow Spectrum Sociopathy.
“When the truth is replaced by silence,” the Soviet dissident Yevgeny Yevtushenko said, “the silence is a lie.” It may appear the silence is broken on Gaza. The cocoons of murdered children, wrapped in green, together with boxes containing their dismembered parents and the cries of grief and rage of everyone in that death camp by the sea, can be viewed on al-Jazeera and YouTube, even glimpsed on the BBC.” John Pilger.
Touring International Legal Opinions, primarily in the US – I note leading Legal Minds are beginning to talk of a massive war crime being purportraited.
Help the Reds are under my bed! I can hear them whispering their devlish plots at night.
It’s been better since I been hangin upside down from the rafters.
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“Touring International Legal Opinions, primarily in the US – I note leading Legal Minds are beginning to talk of a massive war crime being purportraited.”
Really……..
Keith is on the “firing rockets is justified as the Palestinians live in a Warsaw Ghetto type situation” camp and that “Israel should make concessions (not react militarily) for which she will be rewarded (not sure they go that far)”… at that point the scenarios get complicated but the Minto-Greens have limited use as they come loaded with a Marxist paradigm (not just an appropriate level of empathy).
Better get bj and Johan on the job.
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“Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them. There is almost no kind of outrage—–torture, imprisonment without trial, assassination, the bombing of civilians—–which does not change its moral color when it is committed by ‘our’ side.
The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities
committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” —–George Orwell
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On little fact that I never see when you focus on the death and destruction is that all Hamas had to do was stop firing rockets.
There are two sides to ever story.
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And they need to declare that Israel has a right to exist. And Israel needs to call off the dogs.
Then little children won’t suffer.
Can’t see it happening, mind. Religious fruitloops….
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Well, after seeing the UN Security Council live – I am worried.
Too many high profile arabs there – gave me the ‘high noon in Reno quakes’…the US is lucky the presidency is in transit….otherwise time would not afford a slim chance.
Don’t disagree with any of the above – I’ve seen most of this stuff over and over in the last 40 years or so….what I haven’t seen before, is a UN Relief worker killed carrying food and medicine.
Neither in those 40 years, have I seen the Red Cross criticize one nation/state so severely.
Time for prayer again…
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There are two divergent views here:
Given that most people agree that Israel was set up in the state of Palestine. When there was resistance the Palestinians were chased out (as a hostile foe) and kept out.
At this point in time is Israel expansionist or trying to consolidate what it has and needing a buffer in the face of maximum levels of opposition?
The thing is that the mindset of subsequent Israeli generations is “this is my home” although they inherit the sins of their fathers. Given that there maybe several different ways of redress, by supporting Hamas you choose the bloddiest solution (even though you claim to be anti war and for *peace*).
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The activist culture of groups > policy> placards> protests:
2,4,6,8 USA How many kids did you kill to- day” is flawed, as all we get is conclusions. It takes time for people to change as people have strong neural connections and you won’t convince people of much if the people who make policy all come from one stable as they wont recognise important points in the decision making process. Over and over again: if policy input only comes from one behavioural subset it will only persuade that subset.
We need to develop a decision making protocol/format where we can refer to the steps (eg Backgound Middle East Conflict… rather than just”you should read Jeremy Pilgers book and you will”) and assumptions.
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jh,
I tend to go with some of the points in your last two posts as far as breaking the mindset and downward spiral is concerned. I think this is where leadership is needed on both sides. Both sides are caught in a fear-filled cycle and this results in an never ending round of attacks and retribution. I am aware that we can argue about whose land it was/is, who did what to whom and proportionality of attacks and responses but this will not resolve the conflict. While my own sympathy lies with the Palestinian civil population who are the victims of poor leadership decisions on both sides I think we should not be trapped into being parties to the conflict but seek to break the cycle. This may mean accepting the current leadership of both parties as they are and trying to work with them and encouraging them to reach common ground where possible – in both instances the leadership, as flawed as it is, were elected by the respective populations because of their fears and denying it when it makes us uncomfortable does not contribute to resolving the issue.
At a stage leaders will have to come forward and lead, not just give effect to the fears of their people – an example for me personally was FW De Klerk and Nelson Mandela who, while they personally could not stand each other, knew they had to break the downward cycle of conflict in South Africa and took options that their respective groups found daunting – (at the time the whites feared that FW was “selling out” and the blacks were subject to a virtual civil war by “third force” elements allegedly on the instructions of the government but everybody knew things could not carry on as they were. A leap of faith was required.) At a stage in Palestine/Israel both sides will have to give up some things that they hold dear to gain other things that are more important – some of the stumbling blocks of the past were the “right of return” for displaced Palestinians, Jerusalem as capital for both countries, the Israeli settlements on the West bank and Israel’s right of existence and its security. I know that these were some of the issues that have been intractable in the past and have led to the continuous cycle which have left the Palestinians “losing” – they now have even less than they had, which makes it more and more difficult for both parties to make concessions as both have more to lose.
At this stage I just don’t see it happening and the conflict will just carry on for the forseeable future.
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Which is, no answer. Have been allowed to broaden the discussion (or try to) with various quotes – so I hoped for a cross section of views.
Thought the last one was a gem, but, it’s been arrested for something I fear…
Unfortunately thr right went ffright….’moderation soon follows panic’ hey? (that’s My quote and you can’t use it!)
We’ve all taken to a discussion about the unlimited value of a ‘good education’ lately.
Ten days in and 2009 is stained somehow – point out them “ham-rocketeers willya?
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‘hope you don’t confuse “good education” with a particular point of view.
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JH, you write: “On little fact that I never see when you focus on the death and destruction is that all Hamas had to do was stop firing rockets.
There are two sides to ever story.”
But there is more to the story than this. Israel has occupied large areas of Palestinian territory in the past 50 or so years, and one viewpoint is that this is unjust (I’m not saying I agree or disagree with this viewpoint). For many people the status quo (before the current war) was perceived as being unjust, and to do nothing was not acceptable either.
Once you look more deeply into the history and politics of the region, things are not as simple as you might like to put it. It just makes one feel fortunate to not be living there.
ps. Be wary of the automatic moderation on this blog. I replied to one of IceBaby’s posts with the word “ar??enal” (a collection of weapons). Guess what happened, and why.
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Well you definitely can’t say that Samuiela – mind you; get away with crafty bs that’s a lot more offensive if that’s your penchant. IMHO won’t be noticed.
Which would be wrong – but all such notions are subjective yes?
It’s seems violence is always a failure of understanding.
Can’t mention a ‘large cache of weapons’.???
Several young deputies amongst my own ancestors,swapped their lives for what they thought was our ‘freedom of speech’ – sometime I feel kinda bad about that…
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How to Be Stupid by Rosa Brooks:
http://www.startribune.com/opinion/37298744.html?page=1&c=y
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I found this review of The Return of Depression Economics and the Crisis of 2008 by Paul Krugman:
“Although I admire Mr. Krugman as one of the great economic thinkers of our time, I think he misses the point, on several accounts, vis-a-vis our current economic crisis.
When Krugman states that the current economic crisis is “functionally similar” to the Great Depression, nothing could be further from the truth, save the aspect of extending tremendous margins of credit with disastrous results.
There is no doubt in my mind, that what will be coming in the near and intermediate future, will make the Great Depression look like a walk in the park.
Some of the major important structural differences, now from then, are:
1. The United States economy is based almost 80 percent on consumer spending and home building — other sectors, like agriculture and manufacturing are diminished or have disappeared to other countries.
2. Stratification of functional (dysfunctional) economies by countries (China is the manufacturing nation, the United States is the consumer, etc.).
3. The world is so woven into various trade agreements things appear more similar to alliances in Europe pre-World War I; agreements are transnational, yet any nation state attempting to dig its way through an economic crisis is dependent on countries where little or no influence can be leveraged.
4. Due to the structure and placement of the United States in the world’s dysfunctional economic system, any efforts at infusing or pumping our economy, will result of most of those funds ending up in Asian nations. In the 1930′s that money was cycled through our economy and our production base, not now. Bush, Obama, or whoever, might as well write a check to China and save a step.
5. During the Great Depression, the United States, and many countries in the world, had a strong agrarian base — a large segment of the population still lived in single family farms. Many people in the cities, since they still had families “back on the farm” could return home during hard times and at least they wouldn’t starve to death.
I received my degree in economics years ago from UCLA, and then went into another field, but it is my impression, that leaders and economists need to step back from their data and charts and take a much more “pragmatic” view of our current economic crisis. Imagine a game that goes something like this:
1. One country harvests apples, on country brings the apples to market, one country sells them and another country consumes them.
2. After a period of time the consumer country will run out of money to buy apples.
3. The consumer country, in order to continue to consume apples uses credit to purchase the apples.
4. Running out of credit the consumer country creates value for items in its possession (bubbles) to extend its credit base on an inflated assets.
5. The consumer country creates complex paper instruments to sell back the debt it’s owed to other countries, and tricks them into believing it’s an “investment.”
Well, you don’t need a Nobel Prize to conclude how this game will end. In a very simplistic way, this is exactly what happened and none of the proposed remedies have addressed the fundamental and structural problems that created this crisis in the first place. The United States will need to consume significantly less and produce significantly more real goods to make our economy “whole” again.
As for the problem at hand… I have spoken to several economist in both the United States and in Germany who feel that this crisis will have a very bad ending that might include major civil and political unrest throughout the world and unrest that the United States will not escape.
This crisis will not be solved by unlimited government spending that places the burden of bad debt from the debtors to every man, woman and child in the United States for decades to come through increased taxations. Attacking the problem through deficit spending is only moving the bubble around; we will face the consequences for the past 20 years, one way or the other.
If the government is going to spend several $$$trillion, it needs to be spent to address the human misery that will soon be rolling across this country, not bailing out CEO’s with corporate jets and $1,000.00 hairdressers. Hurricane Katrina should be a wake up call to everyone in regards to the limits of our own government.”
http://www.amazon.com/review/RI3V3SXLSTW0N/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#RI3V3SXLSTW0N
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then there are comments:
The globalization twaddle has not served the American people or the nation well. It has led to an enormous transfer of wealth from working class Americans to our financial elites. We now have the greatest skewed distribution of wealth since the 1920′s. This cannot go on if we are to have any hope of maintaining our democratic (albeit flawed) political system.
*******
This writer makes sweeping pronouncements like “China is the manufacturing nation, the United States is the consumer, etc.” that are demonstrably false. China is moving towards exceeding the US in manufacturing volume/dollars, but certainly has not yet done so.
**********
Credit is the main driver of commerce, it is the source of modern prosperity and it is what has transformed human society from having the majority of its people poor to everybody making a decent living, going back to full reserve banking is taking a huge step backward to the early agrarian era, i.e. poverty for most people.
***************
R. Martin, what you failed to realize is that our main export now are ideas. Intellectual property is worth just as much if not more than manufacturing. That’s how economies evolve. They go from agriculture to manufacturing, then to services and inventing new things and ideas. Our ideas are being exported to China so that they can make it a reality. In turn, we, as well as the rest of the world, then buy those good which contains our ideas. So no, you’re incorrect to assume that this is a one way relationship. There’s an entire food chain that goes on. We rather be on top of that food chain then on the bottom.
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Yes… we have been captured by the bankrupt (morally and fiscally) bankers and their minions and our ecology will be sacrificed to save their Mercedes lifestyle at the expense of out children.
http://greenlightingsolutions.blogspot.com/2009/01/european-union-bans-incandescent-bulbs.html
Gosh… maybe it IS a good idea.
Ah no… it doesn’t matter if the bulb is inefficiently making heat rather than light. In OUR houses with spotty insulation and good indoor outdoor flow… for the all too regular southerlies… we need all the heat we can get… and we are going to save money (we need it for our bankers) by not insulating them.
Of course, this is a form of electrical resistance heating, which is the least efficient possible heat you can use but we could always shut down the Aluminium smelters…
Is it something in the water? I have never seen so many brain dead ideas come forward so fast in any period except that JUST before Bush the younger sent the troops into Iraq.
BJ
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Providing easier credit terms, new sources of debt to feed the machine, may stretch this out a bit longer, may cushion the impact as the overloaded and imbalanced economy hits the wall, butit will do nothing to create sustainable growth.
Unless and until something is done to address the real median wage, to provide sources of income, rather than fresh sources of debt, to the middle class, there will be no recovery other than more monetary bubbles, that will be increasingly fragile and destructive in their collapse, ultimately testing the foundations of democracy.
The economic, and then the political, situation in the United States will deteriorate, perhaps much more rapidly than most would expect or even allow, unless something is done to break this cycle of debt and wealth transference, this illusion of vitality and stability.
Hmmm… he could be talking about NZ…. he isn’t but he could be. Interest rates that would be regarded as usury in most of the places I’ve lived for most of my life… have been common here for a long time. The banks get wealthier (transferring wealth to Oz) and we get sucked dry.
When does the investment in NEW ZEALAND happen ?
http://jessescrossroadscafe.blogspot.com/2009/01/worst-is-yet-to-come-j-p-morgan.html
BJ
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BJ,
One of two ways.
The state taxes us all harder and invests on our behalf, or the state abolishes investment taxation and let individuals make decisions where to put their precious money.
The primary instrument will be interest rate cuts. When the banks pay 1 or 2% interest on term deposits, the money will flow into productive investments.
That is if money as we know it now continues to be the oil that lubricates the transaction.
It could well end up not being one as bartering or a black (alternative) market rises.
The financial market is in strive and if we find ourselves returning to one of Maslows lower levels of hierarchy we may well find that physical money is not as important as say a sheet of corrugated iron or a packet of seeds.
One may well trade a cabbage or two for a sheet of corrugated iron.
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Good Link Valis – thank you. Have avoided all of this polarizing stuff – already have a strong opinion on organised murder.
I see this morning the UN Compound in Gaza has been targeted by a white posphorous bomb attack allegedly because of ‘Hamas rockets’ etc.
The UN is pretty upset at both the attack and the accusation – I still think they need to go a step beyond ‘stamping their foot’ in protest’.
ps: the Financial Markets have recovered – feel better?
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“The new “Israel” was the “Land Grab” of the land of Palestine … an already inhabited and fruitful Palestine … from the Palestinians by the Brits etc to use as a place for the survivors of the “Holocaust” that Hitler didn’t manage to snuff out before the inevitable surrender of the Third Reich.”
Spare me.
1. The plan to establish a Jewish national homeland was established in 1917.
2. The League of Nations granted the post WW1 occupier a mandate to achieve this goal in Palestine.
Jews have been a separate people living in this land for over 3000 years continuously – sometimes as a majority, sometimes not. Migration of Jews to this land after periodic expulsions by conquerors resumed in the 19thC when the Ottomon empire allowed migration (the land was poor and the population was in decline). This migration occuring during the century of European nationalism naturally inspired a Jewish counter-part Jewish nation (alism) Zionism. Given there was only one land area where Jews would all consider migrating to, their homeland – this nationalism focused on the idea of Jewish self government (from the hill of Zion) there.
How anyone could confuse nationalism with colonialism is beyond me.
Whatever the occupation of territory in war time is, it is not colonialism.
And the state of Israel would have been established whether WW2 occured (including the holocaust) or not.
Obama has a simple choice and its obvious.
1. He offers Israel NATO membership and NATO/UN support against arms smuggling to militants.
2. Continuation of US aid to Israel requires a withdrawal from all West Bank settlements.
3. Any wall inside Palestinian territory is pulled down.
4. A Palestinian state is then established.
5. No political party not committed to recognition of and peace with Israel can stand for elections in Palestine.
If this Palestine is limited to only the West Bank, for now, so be it.
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How anyone could confuse nationalism with colonialism is beyond me.
Does the ideological left really fail to get the fact that migration of Jews to Israel was legally authorised by the recognised rulers of the area – the Ottomon and British empires (these empires did not establish their own colonies – just employed agents of their rule).
Canada, the USA, Australia and New Zealand were formed as colonies – but Palestine was not – as the empire’s purpose was to facilitate a Jewish national homeland self government alongside that of another local people an Arab one, which speaks to the issue of partition – so each people had a state where each was in majority).
Thus the state of Israel was a self governing democracy formed in an area with a Jewish majority. A democracy which allowed further migration of Jews.
The analogy is not good, as Jews have lived in Palestine for over 3000 years, but if the Fiji Indian migrant majority were allowed to (work with the Fijian workers and) elect a government – would that be forming a colonial government too? Or only if Fijian Indians also formed settlments in neighbouring countries across the sea – say in Auckland?
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Gerrit
My FIRST question is why the State has to tax us all harder. What it HAS to do is accept that house prices at 5x earnings are not right and that the are a product of a bias in the State policies towards investment.
Reward investment in NZ based work and stop rewarding investment in foreign funded (not NZ owned banks or money used for the purchases) housing speculation.
That isn’t a matter of transferring more wealth to the State for it to determine what to do, it is a matter of altering the rules to favour the investor who chooses productive rather than passive investment.
(Not sure I used the word “passive” properly here – whatever)
The second thing Key could and should do, is examine the basis of our currency.
Consider that if the currency were based on kw-Hrs of electrical power provided at a standard wall-outlet in NZ.
The ability of foreigners to invest and buy here depends on their money being converted.
The effects would (I think) limit the influences of overseas capital invention and bubbles on our currency and our economy. It would limit their ability to invest and bubble parts of our economy. They would have to (in effect) bid for a limited supply of NZ dollars and would NOT be able to transact the purchase with made-up money.
It would also (I fear) cause our currency to spike in value to a ridiculous extent.
Hmmph… not an easy answer I am afraid.
BJ
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BJ,
Biggest problem to overcome is then how do we pay for imported goods?
Vendors seem to like solid currency, not KW/H at the wall. Very hard for an overseas vendor to pay their workers, suppliers and shareholders in New Zealand KW/H.
There is no easy answer. Totally agree.
I think a huge tax on money leaving New Zealand might be an answer. At the same time a very much lower tax on profits if they are retained in New Zealand. That way investors will be more likely to reinvest their money in New Zealand rather than send it back to HQ (mind you probably not many overseas firms would think about any new investment here).
Would sort out those companies (and I worked for a few) whose New Zealand operations by and large kept their Australian parents solvent.
And if they could not stomach the extra tax and closed up shop, it would open up the opportunity for New Zealand companies to supply those product and services.
Include in taxable foreign cashflow also plant and equipment. So if they were in a mind to relocate it would cost them too much. Forcing them to sell the plant and equipment to local industry.
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Capital Gains Tax,
Land Value Tax,
Tobin Tax.
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Gerrit sorry mate but you can’t use words like solid currency to describe things like the NZD or for that matter any fiat currency.
You pay for imports with exports not by printing more of your fiat currency.
A Tax on money leaving NZD, if the government anounced they were going to do that, the NZD dollar would be destroyed in about 1 min, the global FX market is the fastest and largest market in the world. within 1 min NZ would be a third world country.
BJ I love your idea of the currency backed by power. The growth of the money supply is restricted by the amount of power the nation can produce.
I love anything that restricts the growth of the money supply.
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Where are those lefties anyway?
How anyone could mistake genocide for security is beyond me.
Finally succumbed to the News cos I want to see a UN Food Store burnt down and check out the wp – always entertaining unless you are under it. Even turns concrete to dust.
Am reminded that the Palestinians had books, science, math when the English were painting themselves blue and eating one another raw.
Mind you they carry a grudge a while – 150 years of defeat in Afghanistan and they finally got the hint…
That Saladin was a Kurd (turned the Crusades a real bummer)and we know what happened to them don’t we? (no I can’t presume so).
Well – one day I suppose England will be a memory too -they certainly are in some deep financial schtook at the moment.
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Turnip28
And is that such a bad thing? Lets face it we are all but a third world country (what ever happened to second world countries?).
And with import pricing hiked it would encourage local industry to supply the goods and services (plus make our exports so much more profitable).
Remember just after the thirties, the New Zealand Railway required more steam locomotives for the expanded rail net work. But the country was broke. So the then government said, have as many as you like but you will not get foreign exchange to buy them. So they build them here.
Why should we take any notice of what foreign TX say anyway.
They only want currency fluctuations so they can make unproductive money.
Bit like Stand and Poors sayig New Zealand is going to be downgraded. Who cares? If nobody takes any notice it actually does not matter what they say.
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Gerrit
If vendors REALLY like a solid currency ours would be the only one there is, the rest are simply backed by wishful thinking. Used to be trust , but nobody trusts anyone else anymore.
I’m still thinking about that KwH at the wall, because I suspect that it would entail a tax/fee/conversion cost for money that is not based on something real. The thing BEHIND it isn’t as portable as gold, so people would simply be UNABLE to transfer the thing behind it (as they used to do with gold) out of the country. That is… the value of the NZ $ would then be primarily where it benefits NZ. Intuitively I think this solves a lot of problems and creates other problems (easily convertible currencies are I think, desirable). Analytically it trickles through my fingers. The other country’s currency is backed by nothing at all and the conversion has to be done through some market based mechanism.
I don’t yet understand all the ramifications. Actually have to do paid work, so can’t think real hard about it.
First should try the simple case. Both countries use KwH at the wall as a standard. That may clarify things by eliminating a distraction.
respectfully
BJ
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One of our simplest moves was to offer reduced Tax Rates for Overseas money invested here – I certainly invested accordingly.
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BJ,
oh the inefficency!
For exchanges into New Zealand currency one could be required to purchase with their currency the equivlent amount of energy production or some such, or of course we could put in a massive system of international cables
One could always work it similar to our banking system, have an international body which keeps track of currency movements and then at the end of the one day trading period makes the trades between national bodies based on net flows, the countries being required to keep a trading surplus of energy for this purpose, the mechanisms for trading the energy could be the energy itself or high-energy goods or mediums, though the incurred inefficencies would decrease liquidity but would also significantly decrease speculation.
A globally embraced system and some extremmly high-efficency transmission conduits could make it work though
Gerrit;
.
If memory serves me correctly
First World: Capitalist
Second World: Communist
Third World: Third-Way
Thought the distinctions have been distorted over time and now its more an expreshion of living standards and the main industries
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I was under the (mistaken?) impression that it was:
First World – Europe
New World – the Americas
Third World – Africa/Asia
but that over time the phrases lost their original meaning and that First World now refers to the industrial developed countries while there isn’t an equivalent “Second World” but only a “Third World” that now refers to developing countries.
Don’t knock being third world, it means getting away with a lot e.g Brazil, China, India, South Africa are all seen as Third World and do not have the Kyoto obligations of the “First World” counties – although personally I think they should have.
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The third world is also a lot more FUN (and ages more civilized)….it’s why so many 1st worlders holiday there.
There must be a second world – if there’s a first and a third….better not voice my suspicions I suppose – keep the tablecloth clean and all that what?!?!
Australia and NZ would also belong to that New World then?
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Johan,
While I got my interpretations from my politics and history lecturers, but that was about 1.5 years ago, so i may be alittle off. Just to pull the introductory paragraphs off wikipedia though;
“The terms First World, Second World, and Third World were used to divide nations into three broad categories. The three terms did not arise simultaneously. After World War II, people began to speak of the NATO and Warsaw Pact countries as two major blocs, often using such terms as the “Western Bloc” and the “Eastern Bloc”. The two “worlds” were not numbered. It was eventually pointed out that there were a great many countries that fit into neither category, and in 1952 French demographer Alfred Sauvy coined the term “Third World” to describe this latter group; retroactively, the first two groups came to be known as the “First World” and “Second World”.”
“The term “Second World” is a phrase that was used to describe the Communist states within the Soviet Union’s sphere of influence or those countries that had centrally-planned economies.[1] Along with “First World” and “Third World”, the term was used to divide the nations of Earth into three broad categories. ”
“The economist and demographer Alfred Sauvy, in an article published in the French magazine L’Observateur, August 14, 1952, coined the term Third World in referring to countries currently called either “developing” or “under-developed”, especially in Latin America, Africa, Oceania, and Asia, that were unaligned with either the Communist Soviet bloc or the Capitalist NATO bloc during the Cold War (1945–1989).[1].”
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…so given that these descriptions are outdated – what indeed do they mean today?….we are advanced enough to fly out into space, turn round and take a snapshot – definitely looks like only one world to me…
my continental news is more concerned that no-one died in a NY accident this morning, than how many died elsewhere – one world perhaps, but the lives of the humans thereon are priced rather differently.
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Mark,
It may be one planet, but it is several billion worlds divided in to hundreds of different clades. :p
One can hardly pretend, and honestly beleive it themselves, that all life is of equal value, the inclusion of value itself ensures that this cannot be so. Value is a subjective assesment representing the utility of the object to a given entity. As a general, though not all pervesive, rule (to society); the smart have more value than the dumb; the strong than the weak; the fast than the slow; the rich than the poor; the politician than the secratary; the irreplacable than the replacable.
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Heh, my previous post kind of remind me of the “some animals are more equal than others” from george orwels “animal farm”
; awesome book, i studied it in 5th form, a thai friend of mine thought he would read about it on the web, he added a “www.” and “.com” to eaither side of “animalfarm”; suffice to say he was shocked and the result was amusing, good times 
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Good Day Sir Sapient; – New Year; – may your light continue to shine on and on, brighter yet…last time I mentioned Orwell I got a lot of sticky stuff for it (and I don’t know why).
Yes; – indeed someone even accused me of tribalism for poking my tongue out at Rodney – whose Hide is well worth it’s time.
There is no extent to which humans seem able to break apart and exist in adversorial contest – something I continue to find sad. My own tribe lost their Country and dispersed in Pre-History (hard to carry a leftie grudge that long).
Yes – obviously so. We are to witness this genocide by one tribe against it’s eleven brothers and sisters and remain silent.
Enough already! Cos it’s what we’ve always done oooh-ah…
So are we not then mere animals too – in spite of our craft?
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Mark,
I consider it unfortunate to a certain degree, and in certain instances, that there will always be both men/women of ambition that see conflict as a meathod of futhering said ambition and the myopic, ideotic and easily movable masses which are so easily ralied to the cause of any charasmatic speaker.
So long as stupidity is rampant our species shall know war, but then again should we ever rid ourselves of such stupidity we will not be the same species anymore.
I got some extramural materials in the mail today for next semester, ive started reading through them and in the second weeks materials for one of my psych papers there is a large extract from “Aiello, L and Wheeler, P. (1995) The expensive tissue hypothesis. Current Anthropology 36: 199-211″ which, in continuation of our previous discussions on evolution, sources of nutrition, and social interaction, I think you may enjoy reading.
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Well I would say that we are not the same species anymore – just that some find a false security in retrograde concept – and when especially scared, may act that out.
The concept of unnecessary suffering – a willfull blindness from those able to help, but unwilling…will read the material thanks m
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bjchip Says:
January 7th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
> There is as much truth in the suffering of the Palestinians as there is in the threat to the existence of Israel,
but then there’s also the threat to the existence of Palestine, which seems to get much less attention than the threat to the existence of Israel. It is Palestine, not Israel, that is being slowly but surely wiped off the map. It is Palestinians, not Israelis, who are being kicked off the land their ancestors have lived on for generations. Surely the fact that the nation of Palestine is being destroyed is at least as significant as the fact that some people are making idle threats to do the same to Israel.
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kahikatea
“It is Palestine, not Israel, that is being slowly but surely wiped off the map”
And you think this is a bad thing???
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# big bro Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
> “It is Palestine, not Israel, that is being slowly but surely wiped off the map”
> And you think this is a bad thing???
I can think of two very good reasons why it is a bad thing.
Firstly, it means that people who had homes and farms in Palestine lose them and are left with nothing. Would you consider it to be a good thing if your home and livelihood was taken away from you without compensation?
Secondly, the reason groups like Hamas get as much support as they do is due to people’s frustration at their homes and livelihoods being taken away from them.
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If the people of Palestine are stupid enough to elect a terrorist organisation as their leaders then they deserve all that comes their way.
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If you applied that equally to the state terrorism practiced by Israel, you would at least be approaching the crimes of both consistently. Too much to ask, I know.
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State terrorism???
That’s a strange way of describing self defence. What are they supposed to do?, ask nicely “please stop lobbing rockets into our country”
I am right behind the Israeli’s on this, it is about time somebody taught these terrorists a lesson.
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See – Sapient? Create the right vaccuum and the truth turns up
” If reporters don’t report and universities don’t debate; if the “open society” is really just a hushed conversation within a gated community; if information is ground under by right-wing think tanks – in short, if power is admired and truth
despised – then who will speak the words clearly that need to be heard” Roger Langen
fond of words then? this is seminal cos the guy virtually founded US politics…i reckon
“The jaws of power are always open to devour, and her arm is always stretched out, if possible, to destroy the freedom of thinking, speaking, and writing”: John Adams
Anyway, cyberprints all over that alpha-dude, but it was a peaceful thread once…
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Mark,
accually, re: the article i suggested “R.Dunbar (1996) Grooming, gossip and the evolution of language. London: Faber and Faber. Pp. 124-8″ may be more accesable and it offers a two page summary and remarks on the previous article.
Hmm, as soon as palistine came up i chose to stop replying; i got half way through a response to bb and figured it wasint worth it. everything has been covered and both sides persist reguardless; not dissimilar to the conflict itself.
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Yes – will read….must; obviously.
If you can make that sort of judgement call with asberger’s then you’re doin good i reckon
nite…
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“State terrorism???”
Why is killing civilians only called terrorism when non governmental agents do it? The IDF has killed many many times more civilians than Hamas has, yet excuses get made for them. Claiming collateral damage is just another way of saying its ok when we do it.
“That’s a strange way of describing self defence. What are they supposed to do?, ask nicely “please stop lobbing rockets into our country”
The international community agrees, including most supporters of Israel, that the settlements on Palestinian land should never have occurred and should at least have ceased years ago when the supposed peace talks began. Even the US agrees officially that the occupation is bad, though it lifts not a finger to do anything about it, while claiming to be a neutral arbiter. Surely the Palestinians have a right to self defense too?
“I am right behind the Israeli’s on this, it is about time somebody taught these terrorists a lesson.”
You could argue that both are stupid and unreasonable, have both committed crimes, etc. Few would disagree. But to argue that the Palestinians are solely to blame shows an inexcusable level of ignorance.
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BB, Kahikatea, Valis et.al…
“It is Palestine, not Israel, that is being slowly but surely wiped off the map”
There was never a country of Palestine ON the map. The territory (including what is now Israel) has been occupied since the times of the Romans. It USED to have Jews and Arabs living together pretty nicely.
Moreover, I do not see the Israelis as wiping “Palestine” off the map… if they had wanted that it would have happened. The refugees would be more numerous and in neighboring Arab countries. Some Israelis want this… it is not State policy. Some Palestinians do not want to wipe Israel off the map, and THAT is not State policy in the Gaza which elected Hamas. There, the state policy IS to wipe Israel away.
Wiping countries off of maps is another name for ethnic-cleansing or sometimes genocide. One of the ugliest words in our language.
Please explain what you think happened when the (much smaller) state of Israel was initially created by the League of Nations in 1948?
What action was taken then by the Arab league?
What happened to the JEWS living in those Arab league nations?
What did the Arab league advise the Israeli Arab/Palestinian population to do then?
If you were an Israeli and had been forced into wars for your very existence not just once but 3 times in your lifetime, how would you perceive your neighbors?
If you had neighbors who insisted that you leave and constantly shot into your house occasionally killing or wounding your friends and family, and you couldn’t move and the cops did nothing, how long do you think you could stay there without wanting to shoot back? How many brothers could you lose before you descended into the primitive hell of an eye-for-an-eye?
Both sides are at fault NOW. The Israeli settlements must go, and they should never have been permitted to start. I think they were conceived after one of the wars (which one escapes me but I believe it was Dayan’s idea) to enhance security. The idea was adopted and IMHO co-opted by the arch-conservatives as a way to expand the country. The wall should follow the agreed boundary between the two regions. IMHO a corridor should be created between Gaza and the West bank. This would be in parts bridges (vertical separation) through which the Palestinians could travel without entering Israel or over which the Israelis could cross without encountering Palestinians.
If we expect Israelis to stop shooting we must expect Palestinians to stop as well. The situation on the ground is quite grim and BOTH sides have to be persuaded to drop grudges, drop revenge-as-a-sacrament and adopt peaceful settlement. It would be good if the neighboring Arab countries which have a historical part in creating the problem would contribute something to its resolution as well.
The Green party and the country of NZ MUST NOT take sides in this.
We cannot bring peace by taking sides.
Peace comes only when people who are able to see BOTH side’s respective truths manage to get both sides to drop the guns and pull apart.
You don’t stop a fight on a playground by telling ONE kid to stop. You have to recognize when they don’t stop as well, and you have to respond to the attacks, even minor ones, that one of them will continue to make once the fight is stopped. You know it happens. Usually the one who was getting beaten is the one who wants to keep fighting.
I should also ask that we recognize that the nature of asymmetric warfare is always that one side has the predominance in firepower. Valis… you should consider who the targets are as a general rule. Terrorism does not target the military. Its killings are almost exclusively AIMED at civilians. The military is not aiming at civilians, its weapons and target solutions are simply not able to avoid the terrorists.
That means perceptions may not be accurate if they are based solely on recent imagery and are not collated with years of carnage inflicted by the terrorists… bomb by bomb interrupting the peace only for a few minutes each week but intentionally targeting civilians with EVERY bomb.
That’s how Hamas wants you to see it. They know that by the nature of what they do, we will only see the Israeli response and reckon it excessive, forgetting the incessant war that Hamas has engaged in and IS engaged in.
Just as Israel does not want you to see the Bulldozers… and you don’t see them either BB, the war is being fought by EVERY means, not other means, and it continues forever.
Don’t be sucked in.
The Green party and the country of NZ MUST NOT take sides in this.
We cannot bring peace by taking sides.
BJ
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“avoid the terrorists” ??? need coffee “avoid the civilians” … drat.
BJ
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G’day BJ,
A few points. I agree that both sides are culpable in this disaster. I’ve always though that the Palestinians would make more serious progress if they’d adapt a Gandhian approach and practice a bit of non-violence. This would remove any ability for the Israeli apologists to claim that their current approach is anything other despicable.
You can read commentators now who talk of Israel trying to “educate” civilians that support for Hamas will only bring them pain. They do this by inflicting pain directly on the population. The US did a similar thing in Iraq by targeting water treatment plants and the like and then refusing to allow replacement parts into the country. This is serious stuff and is expressly forbidden in international law. And lets not forget the economic strangulation that has been imposed on Palestinians. Their suffering goes way beyond bombs.
The real point is that often it is the stronger side that needs to take the first step in reducing conflict. Israel has something like the 5th largest military in the world. It inflicts a thousand times more damage than Hamas could ever dream of. While the Palestinians might be stupid to struggle militarily in such a situation, it seems disingenuous for we in the west to pretend being neutral includes ignoring this imbalance.
Hamas’s rhetoric may be stronger than Israel’s, but they have little power to “wipe Israel off the map”. Conversely, Israel does have the power and so does not need to talk about it. Hamas’s stance is just another excuse. Israel could neutralise Hamas politically and without bloodshed if it were serious about peace.
Lastly, the pressure the international community needs to apply is not just on Israel directly, but on the US, as they pay for Israel’s huge military without which Israel could not survive. If the US actually became neutral, as you want NZ to be, this problem would greatly improve. I can see no reason why the Greens or others should not speak up about these things.
We shouldn’t be sucked in by either Hamas OR Israel.
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# big bro Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
“If the people of Palestine are stupid enough to elect a terrorist organisation as their leaders then they deserve all that comes their way.”
the trouble with that reasoning is that you could just as easily say “if the Israelis are stupid enough to elect a government that keeps kicking palestinians out of their houses without compensation and building roads over their farmland that they are not allowed to use, and taking artesian water that the palestinians have used to water their crops for generations and using it to irrigate Israeli golf courses, then they deserve all they get”.
The problem with the arguments that say it is acceptable for Israelis to kill innocent Palestinians is that they can just as easily be used to say it’s acceptable for Palestinians to kill inncoent Israelis.
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Very well put. Being charitable, it seems some people may not even know these kind of things are going on. Instead they hear that one side has been branded “terrorist” and decide that is justification for any action whatsoever. Very convenient for the Israelis and deliberately cultivated.
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Valis
I think you’re right… they would make MUCH better progress following Ghandi rather than Hamas, but that would be very UNlike their societal background.
As for the Israeli abuses during the times when they are not actually sending tanks and attack bombers and the like, those are not as well documented as they should be. The press has a great deal of culpability in the background here, and I would be loathe to give them a free pass. The US has nothing like a real democratic system as long as the press is not reporting properly. I think that this would be the case in any democracy.
Including the one in Israel.
The problems are many.
Israel could neutralise Hamas politically and without bloodshed
… possibly, but the Israeli government that tried it would fall in less than a week. That’s the effect of the polarization Hamas continues to seek AND the history of bloody war waged by their Arab neighbors.
It will take a generation of NO major war threat from Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Iran… etc… for the people who elect the government in Israel to elect someone who wants to work towards a lasting peace. To feel that they can trust their neighbors enough to make the sort of moves that would “neutralize Hamas” politically.
They think they have a fair shot at simply whacking the Hamas leadership in Gaza directly… I think their chances are less than even, but better than zero. I note that they are not invading the West Bank and they are apparently trying to reward the more moderate Palestinian Authority in charge there. As a strategy this may also have some benefits.
I don’t LIKE it but it might cause some of the desired effect.
As for the Israeli “taking” of water, that’s been a cassus belli for the region since humans first walked upright. I doubt that the truth is going to be as portrayed by either side… and it won’t get into the news channels either.
I don’t like the way either side operates, but I know enough about the history and the region to not be sucked in AND :
If the Green party expects the government of NZ to take part in creating an honest peace in the region neither the Green party nor the government of NZ should be taking sides.
It cannot be any plainer.
BJ
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Rather than the usual “Israel is stronger: Israel is wrong; Israel should do:….” the greens should develop a model that more readily reflects the situation and a way through the maze.
The Green approach understates harm to Israel (bias).
Kennedy Graham anyone?
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Yes, meanwhilst lets not forget those Jews, those Israeli’s who are past the ‘Haganah’ in terms of social adjustment, are actually seeing anti-zionism as their best hope.
Did the last Labour Govt. ever confess to what those 2 mossad guys were doing; trying to fly into nz in disguise? (no-and wound up sooo un-elected)
Well this is a quote from an Israeli Journalist, a profession that still can adhere to integrity if it chooses…
” Enough!
Someone Must Stop Israel’s Rampant Madness in Gaza
By Gideon Levy
The streets of Gaza Thursday looked like killing fields in the midst of the “third stage” and worse. Israel is arrogantly ignoring the Security Council’s resolution calling for a cease-fire and is shelling the UN compound in Gaza, as if to show its real feeling toward that institution.”
This hammer was flung as a result of 4 Israeli deaths from rockets.
Q: Is this a balanced, logistical response, or something more primal?
Like usual – guess I’ll stick with the UN and wish they’d live up to their commission for a change…
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hmmmm That’s the problem
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Mark
Totally wrong. The hammer was flung becasue of 6000+ plus rockets fired into southern Isreal.
And the continous stream of rockets still being fired.
Gee, can you get your facts right.
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Facts intact; 4 – check 4 Israeli deaths – have you seen one of these ‘rockets’ Gerrit? Guess not.
They look like a rubbish tin with the dogs bones sellotaped to it for fins.
PR is great Sport – made me a million I’m ashamed to say.
Yep the UN is totally responsible overseeing this, with their charter.
Then – if you go to their ‘comfort zone’ in Manhattan, you’ll begin to understand why there is so little motivation for change.
Might always makes right; and that is all she wrote…
Sat night absence from here
ps; if you’re going to put your vote with a side – learn their names at least. Israel – but then, I’m not talking about Israeli’s, or even jews; – there is a separate notion called zionism.
Most Israeli’s hate it.
Personally I would have felt bad chuckin my bones away looking for Adolt Hiltern…..
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You can’t base policy on that sort of emotional assessment.
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“PR is great Sport – made me a million I’m ashamed to say.”
And what does the green party do to combat the activities of PR companies (misinformation)? In the US they have PR Watch.
http://www.prwatch.org/cmd/prwatch.html
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Yes Gerrit, the facts you skip can be just as important as the ones you quote. Here’s some more from the Israeli human rights group B’Tselem as reported on ZNet:
“… from the beginning of the second Intifada on September 29, 2000, until November 30, 2008, 2,990 Palestinians in Gaza were killed by Israeli security forces. Of these, 1,382 were known not to be taking part in hostilities. (During this same seven year period, Palestinian rockets or mortars from Gaza killed a grand total of 22 Israeli civilians.) If these Palestinian rockets constituted terrorism and war crimes — and they do — how much greater were the crimes of the Israeli government?”
I read elsewhere that the 1,382 civilians killed is considered an absolute minimum as the identities and activities of up to half the remainder are not well enough known to say for sure one way or the other.
————
BJ, your point is clearly made, its just wrong imho. I have no great issue with the rest of your post and the realpolitik it contains. I agree that the sort of taking sides we’ve seen a lot of in this thread that argue only one side is wrong (and it ain’t usually Israel) are a recipe for further disaster. And of course you shouldn’t take sides as to the outcome desired, which must be fair to both sides. But if its an honest peace you want, as opposed to something doomed to be short-lived, you won’t get it if governments don’t tell the truth of what’s been happening there. That includes both Palestinian and Israeli crimes. The particular problem at the moment is that many people are dying as we speak, not just the occasional death from a one off attack. Urgency is necessary and its the Israelis who must act. The US let them slide for weeks in 2006 in Lebanon and bragged about the new middle east being created, only to see Hamas strengthened politically, not to mention the hundreds of unnecessary additional dead.
And as I said before, the real target is the US as enabler. The ironic thing is that in Israel itself, they have this debate very openly. There’s nothing NZ could say that they haven’t read already in their newspapers. But saying it IS necessary.
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Valis
Problem with this is that I posted such a long screed I have no idea which thing in it you disagreed with
Maybe I should break things up smaller.
It’s late.
The USA isn’t going to move to rein in Israel by cutting off aid. The Jewish lobby easily rivals the NRA in clout and will not allow it. Whether some other consideration can be waved at them to turn the situation around is anyone’s guess. We will see if there is any change worth noting.
respectfully
BJ
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Sorry. I disagreed with the bold bit at the end, or at least what I think your interpretation of “taking sides” is.
Agree with what you say about the US, etc. I just think it should not keep us (NZ generally, but particularly the Green Party) from speaking truth to power.
Night.
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Mark,
oh dear, as long as the construction quality of the rockets is low, it is OK to keep sending them into southern ISRAEL.
I did the ISREAL part on purpose. As in a rocket IS REAL .
Notice that when one states a fact, you automatically ASSUME people taking sides. I’m not, just pointing out your inaccuracies. A retraction due from you?
I frankly think the tribal warfare in that part of the middle east is intractable and will continue until a nuclear solution is finally called for by the Israel. There will be no long lasting peace until then.
This most likely “end game” scenario will be a nuclear war targetted at Iran, the power house of Islamic hatred show towards Israel.
Then you can do a body count!
I’m with BJ on this, We dont take sides, condemn both Hamas and Israeli for unmitigating terror.
Be the terror suicide bomber, poorly constructed rockets, laser guided missiles, white phosphorus shells, or bullets.
There are no sides to take accept for a lasting peace, which can only be bought about by Israel withdrawal from Gaza, Hamas to stop suicide bombers and rocket attackes in Israel and Iran to stop Islamic hatred towards Israel.
The only other option is for Israel to flatten Iran in a nuclear attack. Despite rhetoric, I’m not sure the Iranians have the capacity to have a nuclear first strike.
The new US president has already stated his position in regards the Hamas rocket attacks. Am sure his little dialog in regards his reaction if rockets (even poorly constructed ones) were fired at his daughters, was enough of a green light for the Israel to attack the rocketeers.
Seen the IDF videos of Hamas getting ready to fire a rocket, the rocket leaving the launcher, five or six rocketeers getting ready to reload or dismantle the launcher when in incoming Israeli round wipes out the lot?
Dont see many of those videos on the evening news!
But shows that ultimately the rocketeers will lose as the timeframe from launching a rocket to a pin point Israeli response is getting less. They used to have about 5 minutes. It is now down to 30 seconds if a drone is in the region.
As for the UN. A more biased lot is harder to imagine. A true UN resolution would be to call both sides to stop the conflict. Not to take sides with one.
And what will do the UN do? Sweet nothing as they are toothless.
They should be promoting an independent state for Palistinians based in Gaza, reconised by both Israel and (more importantly) Egypt.
For it will be through the western corridor that the Palistinians will get access to the rest of the world and be able to develop economically and socially.
Why is it that Egypt keeps the door closed to Gaza?
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Valis
I guess we disagree on the basic expectation that I have, which is that if we side with the Palestinians the Israelis will regard us as their enemies and will actively ignore us.
Truth to power only is useful if the powerful are listening. The Israeli government is regularly excoriated by people who have taken the Palestinian cause and they are quite experienced and professional about not listening.
If you want to bring peace, you must be perceived by both sides as an honest broker, even-handed with no preconceived agenda. Fail that test and the chances of bringing peace instead of a digging in of one side or the other, are nil.
Similarly, the folks who simply call on the Palestinians to lay down their arms (and die politely) are objects of derision in Gaza. Neither side is correct… but neither is willing to take unilateral steps in the face of what they perceive as unfair treatment, and neither will listen to us if we appear to side with their enemies.
If NZ wishes to simply join the chorus, that’s also a choice. Don’t be surprised if our representatives are poorly attended in Israel in that case. BB gets the same comment but from the other side. Both sides are in error and in a state of war that CANNOT be ended through fighting short of genocide. That’s the nature of the region.
From the Israeli perspective, since they CANNOT talk to Hamas but can talk to the Palestinian authority, they must remove Hamas from the equation. I don’t give them a great chance of success, but it is better than zero and letting the rockets dictate terms to them is a position that their government cannot take and remain in government, and any replacement after such a move would be more militant. As a society they feel threatened with extremely good reason. Do the people of Gaza threaten? They are quietly backed by Syria and Iran and other members of a powerful league of Arab states that have NEVER accepted the existence of Israel. Iran which has missiles to ship and is trying to build nukes. Syria which is IIRC, still formally in a state of war with Israel.
To an Israeli it is not JUST Gaza. It is not JUST Hamas. It is their very well armed patrons as well. They are not stupid people. They intend to survive and if you aren’t an honest broker they’re just going to ignore you. Rightly I think.
That’s why we (New Zealand) should not take sides. It is only PART of the reason why we (Green Party) should not take sides. Yes it renders our rhetoric totally ineffective in actually bringing peace to the region but it ALSO alienates a large group of people in New Zealand.
To absolutely NO purpose whatsoever. The protest movement can go “speak truth to power” all it likes. This is a Political Party, not a movement, and it has a responsibility to SEEK political power. It must not alienate itself from the majority that is the source of that power unless such a position is absolutely necessary based on its Principles.
But that is not true here either.
Since taking sides does NOT promote peace but in fact impedes its appearance, our principles actually require that we do not take sides.
This is all a sideshow. We’re on the other side of the planet. Israel would hardly notice if we declared war on them, and its ignoring us for taking up the Palestinian side is a given.
You want to influence its actions? They have to be able to hear you first. Confronting them (truth to power) isn’t going to cause them to open their ears. It is a waste of time, politically damaging, and wholly ineffective.
BJ
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Median age in Gaza is 17. They could use some family planning and a rap over the watsit from greens.
A sustainable nation is a peaceful nation (as a rule).
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Mark
So Israel has to wait until Hamas has a supply of effective rockets and kills ten thousand Israelis before it responds? What other weapons might Hamas have in that case ?
That would give them the green light to kill every man woman and child in the region…. except that such an attack would not be launched independently. Recognizing that it would be coordinated with Iranian missiles and a Syrian invasion and Air Strikes isn’t so difficult.
Israel could lose in that case. Not sure they would but they’re not sure they would not.
Then you’d wring your hands while watching the Israelis being gunned down in the streets and tell us all how you didn’t think it would come to this?
If you take sides in this argument you are supporting genocide. That is the nature of the war. If it is ever resolved militarily it MUST end in wholesale slaughter. If it is to be resolved peacefully it CAN ONLY be resolved by giving BOTH sides equal weight.
BJ
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BJ,
Interesting scenario with a Syrian land invasion. Had not thought of that idea.
Problem is though that technology has all but wiped that idea as with sattlelite surveilence, air superiority and guided missile weaponery, the Syrian land attack would be a catastrophic failure.
Would a Syrian invasion bring the US into the conflict?
If so a couple of B52 and B2 stikes would wipe out the invasion force in quick time. Not to mention US carier based aircraft ability to seek and destoy AA and SAM sites.
Be interesting to see where the various US carrier task forces are stationed at the moment.
Guess their nuclear submarines be stationed in the Mediterean and Red seas?
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Mind you would Syria invade Israel with the best part of the US ground armed forces camped just a few hundred miles away in Iraq?
They do not have the capacity to wage a war against Israel on one front plus repulse a amed incursion by US forces from the rear.
Maybe Bush Junior got the Iraq invasion strategically correct for a long term Middle East presence and as a curb against Syrian and Iranian aggression.
Or is Israel just plain taking advantage of the US presence in Iraq to push a few “boundaries”?
Knowing full well that the US is sitting a growing weapons stockpile and if that stockpile was utilised and in need of replacement, it could help the US economy?
Would an all out Middle Eastern war be good for the US economy?
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It isn’t actually a ground attack that would cause trouble. If the Syrians picked up a few volunteers from Iran along with their figher-bombers they could severely distract the Israeli Air Force, the troops in Gaza would be fighting without that air support and (according to my scenario, without chance of reinforcements against a large and well armed force… the timing could cause a fair number of Israeli casualties, could cause that flank to weaken and if the Israelis reinforce from the North the Syrians come in fast and hard. The key is to take such a short time (Israel is so small), that a US response would be to a fait-accompli. There would be no “Israel” to rescue. There might also be several large nuclear explosions in places like Teheran and Damascus, but the result would still ONLY be genocide. If in fact the US did get drawn into a more general conflict earlier in the piece the outcome might go the other way, but Syria might also cease to exist as an independent state and Gaza would contain NO Palestinians.
The fact is that the ONLY result of this war if it is fought to a conclusion can be genocide, no matter which side wins.
Which is why taking sides is such a nonsense. We have to be against war by ALL sides or we are just patsies.
BJ
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I think Frog had better get back to the pond. At least to start a new thread. This thread is threatening to overload the server.
BJ
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The key would be what discretion Captain Mike leaves to the area commanders. Contingencies have to be planned. The air power available to suppress Syria and Iran is significant though, and I think you’re right for the time being. What happens when the US is pulled out and the US economy forbids any further adventures? You have a good point.
respectfully
BJ
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“The fact is that the ONLY result of this war if it is fought to a conclusion can be genocide, no matter which side wins.
Which is why taking sides is such a nonsense. We have to be against war by ALL sides or we are just patsies. ”
and Keith Locke and his team are amateurs.
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hmm – yep you are right – this is the wrong place for a sensible dissertation – I’m beginning to have some sympathy with the UN’s difficulties…
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BJ,
“I guess we disagree on the basic expectation that I have, which is that if we side with the Palestinians the Israelis will regard us as their enemies and will actively ignore us.”
I’ve never suggested we side with anyone. I agree with you on this and spent some time saying so. But pretending that the affect of Israeli actions – economic as well as military – is equal to Palestinian actions when its possibly thousands of times greater to me is siding with the Israelis, not being neutral. I’m quite happy to say up front that Palestinian actions are deplorable, as the Greens have also. I see no reason not to speak realistically about Israeli actions as well.
“Truth to power only is useful if the powerful are listening. The Israeli government is regularly excoriated by people who have taken the Palestinian cause and they are quite experienced and professional about not listening.”
Which is why they are not the main target. The US can call the shots if it wants too. US public opinion is the most important here.
“If you want to bring peace, you must be perceived by both sides as an honest broker, even-handed with no preconceived agenda. Fail that test and the chances of bringing peace instead of a digging in of one side or the other, are nil.”
I would say exactly the same thing in support of my position. An honest broker doesn’t ignore elephants in the room.
“Similarly, the folks who simply call on the Palestinians to lay down their arms (and die politely) are objects of derision in Gaza. Neither side is correct… but neither is willing to take unilateral steps in the face of what they perceive as unfair treatment, and neither will listen to us if we appear to side with their enemies.”
Again, I could have written that, because right now, the huge bulk of the unfair treatment is going the Palestinian way. That has to be addressed to make progress.
“If NZ wishes to simply join the chorus, that’s also a choice. Don’t be surprised if our representatives are poorly attended in Israel in that case. BB gets the same comment but from the other side.”
If you think I’ve been arguing BB in reverse after blasting him for it, you seriously need to go back and have a reread.
“Both sides are in error and in a state of war that CANNOT be ended through fighting short of genocide. That’s the nature of the region.”
Agree again. And its more likely to happen if we pretend either side is in imminent danger of annihilation, when only one side is.
“From the Israeli perspective, since they CANNOT talk to Hamas but can talk to the Palestinian authority, they must remove Hamas from the equation.”
That’s another irony of course. Israel used to talk to Hamas a lot and even fund them when they felt it was politically useful to do so. Hamas is in part a creation of Israel, not too dissimilar to Al Qaeda and the US.
“I don’t give them a great chance of success, but it is better than zero and letting the rockets dictate terms to them is a position that their government cannot take and remain in government, and any replacement after such a move would be more militant. As a society they feel threatened with extremely good reason. Do the people of Gaza threaten? They are quietly backed by Syria and Iran and other members of a powerful league of Arab states that have NEVER accepted the existence of Israel. Iran which has missiles to ship and is trying to build nukes. Syria which is IIRC, still formally in a state of war with Israel.”
More excuses. The Arab states maintain their position for internal political reasons, but know that Israel is here to stay. There have been several proposals put forward by Arab states that would greatly improve stability for all, but these are routinely ignored by Israel and the US. Even Hamas offered to talk of the 30 year cease fire. But all these things rely on Israelis stopping further occupation of Palestinian land, which they refuse to do. They use any excuse to avoid this.
“To an Israeli it is not JUST Gaza. It is not JUST Hamas. It is their very well armed patrons as well. They are not stupid people. They intend to survive and if you aren’t an honest broker they’re just going to ignore you. Rightly I think.”
They know their survival is not what’s really at stake. Its their expansionist goals that are in danger.
“That’s why we (New Zealand) should not take sides. It is only PART of the reason why we (Green Party) should not take sides. Yes it renders our rhetoric totally ineffective in actually bringing peace to the region but it ALSO alienates a large group of people in New Zealand.”
People who are largely ignorant of the real situation due to the lamentable job of the media, as you’ve pointed out. The Greens have not often shied away from a position simply because it is unpopular and should never do so when so many lives are at stake.
“To absolutely NO purpose whatsoever.”
You’ve become morbidly fatalistic BJ! Change does happen even if slowly. They’ve been at it for a very long time and nothing we do will change things over night. But it is our responsibility as world citizens to remain engaged and do the right thing. Kinda surprised I have to say this really.
“The protest movement can go “speak truth to power” all it likes. This is a Political Party, not a movement, and it has a responsibility to SEEK political power. It must not alienate itself from the majority that is the source of that power unless such a position is absolutely necessary based on its Principles.
But that is not true here either.”
I believe the Green position is supported by all four of its basic principles, so no issue there. As for our role as a political party again, I just can’t believe that’s your view.
“Since taking sides does NOT promote peace but in fact impedes its appearance, our principles actually require that we do not take sides.”
Absolutely wrong in my view. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
“This is all a sideshow. We’re on the other side of the planet. Israel would hardly notice if we declared war on them, and its ignoring us for taking up the Palestinian side is a given.”
Agreed. Changes nothing, because its not about our individual actions affect on Israel directly. Its about NZ actions over time as a member of the international community working for change.
“You want to influence its actions? They have to be able to hear you first. Confronting them (truth to power) isn’t going to cause them to open their ears. It is a waste of time, politically damaging, and wholly ineffective.”
Again, very fatalistic and not an approach the Green Party has ever taken. I hope we don’t start.
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Valis,
The Green principle of non-violence
So can you please come out with condemnation of the Hamas rocket attacks against Israel.
I think you are missing BJ’s point completely in that taking sides actually achieves nothing.
If the Greens were to be honest and true to the four principles, you would come out against ALL violence, and seek a peaceful solution in Gaza.
That solution is for Eqypt to open up the border and let the Palestinians achieve a measure of independence.
Currently they blockade the border to stop arms shipments. Surely the Greens would support the opening up of the border and have UN inspect shipments to prevent arm shipment but let through food, aid and in the future, commerce.
Yes the Israeli response has been over the top, but then again 6000+ Hamas rockets could be considered over the top as well.
Will be interesting to see if the just announced Israeli ceasfire will hold and Hamas rockets will no longer be fired to cause a renewed level of violence.
BJ,
Not up to play with the Iranian Air Force capability, last time I saw they build their own planes which were copies of Vietnam era F5′s.
I dont know if they possess HawkEye type high flying radar planes to guide the fighters to targets.
I would imagine the first nukes would be targetted to neutralise their airforce capability. Heaven forbid it would come to that, but that would be my strategy.
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“So can you please come out with condemnation of the Hamas rocket attacks against Israel.”
I most certainly already have several times and in several ways on this very page (?)
“I think you are missing BJ’s point completely in that taking sides actually achieves nothing.”
I really don’t know what you’re reading. I’ve addressed this quite directly already. The fact is that I disagree with what it means to take sides. All explained above.
“If the Greens were to be honest and true to the four principles, you would come out against ALL violence, and seek a peaceful solution in Gaza.”
We most certainly have always advocated for just that.
“That solution is for Eqypt to open up the border and let the Palestinians achieve a measure of independence.”
Sounds good.
“Currently they blockade the border to stop arms shipments. Surely the Greens would support the opening up of the border and have UN inspect shipments to prevent arm shipment but let through food, aid and in the future, commerce.”
Without question.
“Yes the Israeli response has been over the top, but then again 6000+ Hamas rockets could be considered over the top as well.”
Sure, but why don’t you go try to discover the number of rockets the 5th largest military in the world has fired at the Palestinians, not to mention the Lebanese (and not to mention the economic strangulation that has done just as much damage)? It is probably in the hundreds of thousands. There is simply no comparison other than the agreed point that both are unjustifiable criminal acts.
“Will be interesting to see if the just announced Israeli ceasfire will hold and Hamas rockets will no longer be fired to cause a renewed level of violence.”
I hope so. Also that the Israelis don’t break the ceasefire, which they have just as much a habit of doing when it suits them.
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Valis (and Mark). Keep up the good work!
I’ve been too busy with other forms of information gathering, disseminating (and protest) to spend any time here. My concern and focus is for/on the children of Gaza and their families.
To some other posters here: may I suggest that everyone’s time would be better to spend reading more widely. War is not a chess game and Israel is guilty of multiple War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity.
Israel is funded, armed by (and still hides behind the skirts of) the USA. That is nothing new, but times are changing and the international community may be enraged enough to do something about it.
I’m looking forward to hearing from Green MPs Keith Locke and Kennedy Graham who are well qualified to speak on the issues involved.
So … please don’t give me any “lectures” here, as I won’t be back to read them!!
eredwen is on a MISSION … to help save other people’s grandchildren !
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Just don’t conflate your activities with the environmental movement.
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“Israeli Green Party response to US Green Party resolution
The Israeli Green Party strongly opposes the US Green Party resolution calling for divestment and boycott of Israel.
The Israeli Green Party is calling to the US Green Party committee to review its decisions regarding to the Palestinian Israeli conflict.
We are very disappointed that our sister party in the US did not consult with the Israel Green Party before passing this resolution. We hope that this breach in trust between our entities will be remedied with an apology and appropriate action by the US Greens.
The Israeli Green Party feels that the US Green Party has been hijacked by elements of a hidden agenda to undermine the right of Israel to exist!
We are sorry to say that the US Green Party resolution is based on incorrect information, a one sided point of view, and will have a negative effect on the peace process. We have seen many times before, these kinds of decisions are perceived by the Palestinian side as achievements of their strategy of violence involving suicide bombers and missile attacks on Israeli cities. This endorsement results with much more violence and bloodshed.
When the US Green Party discusses the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, it should hear both sides of the conflict and should get balanced and fair information. We will give some examples that you probably weren’t aware of when you made your decisions:
1. Did you know that the Palestinian educational system and the pupil text books flaunt full anti-Semitic ideas with no recognition of the right of the Jewish people for a state on their historic home land?
2. Did you know that in the Palestinian media there is glorification of violence and of suicide bombers?
3. Did you know that the Arab and Palestinian media is inundated by anti-Semitic ideas and there are daily calls for jihad on Israel and calls for throwing the Jews to the sea?
4. Did you know that many Palestinian originations including the PLO never dropped their master plan to demolish Israel in stages?
5. Did you know that in Israel live millions of Jewish refugees and their descendants from Arab countries?
6. Did you know that Arab countries pillage the private and community property of these Jewish refugees, which are worth today hundreds of billons dollars?
7. Did you know about the costly effort of Israel to settle Jewish refugees from all over the world in Israel?
We also should point out that Israel is the only free democratic country in the region, with freedom of speech, free press, and a free and independent judicial system.
From our point view all Israeli citizens from all religions have equal rights. All Israelis have the right to vote and run for parliament. We are not aware of any state violation of human right of any Israeli citizens.
Furthermore, we know that there is a big effort to prevent and minimize human rights violations on territories. We are “sorry” that the Israeli army prevents Palestinian suicide bombers from “expressing” their “human rights” to bomb themselves among Israeli citizens.
We should point out that the US and many free countries have strong economic ties with many countries in regions where the words “human rights” have no meaning – with countries that have hundreds of millions of citizens that don’t know what even a basic human right is! We are amazed that US Green Party is doing nothing to stop these human right abuses!
You should notice that, unlike the US and the Arab countries, in Israel there is no death penalty.
”
http://www.green-party.org.il/public_statement.htm
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“”As a Member of Parliament, I expressed horror at the kidnapping of some 29 of my parliamentary colleagues on the West Bank and Gaza, and the bombing of the Palestine Prime Minister’s office.”
“”I told the Honorary Consul that the seizure of one Israeli soldier cannot justify such a massive response….”
(his nibs)
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Well, as an independent observer I can hardly wait for my colleagues in the international Media to be allowed back into this area.
All the above will seem somewhat embarrassing then i fear.
But then, armchair warriors never did make a difference did they?
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wait….the UN (the side I’m on) is in there now….what’s that they’re saying…’war crimes…dead kids’
well crickey gee.
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# Mark Says:
wait….the UN (the side I’m on) is in there now….what’s that they’re saying…’war crimes…dead kids’
well crickey gee.
……………..
Could you be more specific?
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Well – another UN school shelled this morning is the only site they’ve reached. Oh yeah – widespread phosphorus burns amongst the local population.
It bugs me a little that those Hamas types will be back from their holidays in a week or so.
And how many people do you think might be radicalised by this assault jh?
And the MSM’s ability to focus on sports at this time…?
Hope your next tutorial at toys r us includes a lesson on how a few Apaches could have sorted out these terrists.
I’m afraid I will have to remain an opponent to Armies being sent into civilian zones.
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Mark
“I’m afraid I will have to remain an opponent to Armies being sent into civilian zones.”
But its OK to lop rockets into your neighbours place for eight years is it?
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My neighbourhood reckon so – but them, they’re provincial kiwis and and you can’t measure that low An IT factor.
BB ” We are given TWO eyes, TWO ears, yet only one mouth”
If you work that out, then Please learn to read – I’m not your daddy.
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“But its OK to lop rockets into your neighbours place for eight years is it?”
Mark didn’t say or imply any such thing and you shouldn’t insinuate he did. He did point out that the recent rockets claimed 4 (of 22 Israelis killed in the last eight years) and compared that to the thousands killed by the IDF in response. This is due to the Israelis lopping rockets and tanks and things into their neighbour’s place at a rate at least a thousand times higher than have come the other way.
This fracas is about security of course, but its also about land and other resources. The Palestinians want their eventual state to include the 22% of Palestine that still existed in 1967 when the Israelis started their land grab. Lands taken since then are recognised by the international community to be illegally occupied and Israel continues its expansion to this day. This is why Palestinians feel so aggrieved, feel that they are being slowly wipped off the map and have resorted to violence. I think their response is criminal, but is at least as understandable as the response from Israel to the threat to their security, unproportional though it is. Of course, you’re the one on record as encouraging violence, at least when its from the other side. Being a property rights kind of guy, what would you do if someone was stealing your land, fresh water, etc? Why wouldn’t you advocate for the Palestinians to do the same?
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I wonder if that includes the Israeli children who have been terrorised by over 6000 hamas rockets? Nor to mention numerous suicide bombers.
cool
So am I, I wonder if they will harang Hamas for the terrorising Israeli citizens (and grandchildren) by deploying suicide bombers and rocket on civilian populations. Non violence is after all a Green founding principle.
Not holding my breath.
And will those erstwhile gentlemen comment on this “forgotten” little skirmish?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/30/2456322.htm?section=world
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Keith has already condemned what Hamas has done. I’m sure Kennedy would do the same. If you deplore violence so much, why do you refuse to say the same about both sides, as Greens on this list have done, particularly as Israli actions amount to at least a thousand times more damage than what Hamas is capable of? I’d also like to hear your answer to my question for big bro at 10:24pm.
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Valis
If I am reading you correctly, your basic claim is that the Israelis have expanded their settlements in the West Bank and taken additional land in Gaza… I am quite sure this is true. You want us to highlight that but NOT to take the Palestinian side?
Are you referring to this from Keith? “…”While not absolving Hamas of blame, the main focus should be on stopping the massive Israeli offensive which is killing so many innocent people and destroying much of Gaza’s infrastructure.”
In other words, the weapons that Israel has, it is not ALLOWED to use, no matter how many rockets are fired? There is no way for Israel to wage a “proportionate” war, and it is ridiculous to speculate on the ways it might do so. There are three ways to end a war. You tear your opponent to bloody shreds, you get torn to bloody shreds, or you talk through the disagreements, sort out the problems and work to make a state of peace.
At no time has either side ever had a state of peace. They have only ever had a few shaky cease-fires, and there is a method to this madness of Israel’s. It is Dayan’s genius, but it is also folly. The assumption is that there will never be peace, and the settlements keep enemies off balance. They in fact prevent peace just as certainly as the refusal to recognize the right of Israel to exist and negotiate in good faith.
Can any Israeli government pull the settlements out and pull them down with the rockets coming into Israel? Not at all. There’d probably be a clap of thunder as the air rushed into the space it had formerly occupied. Gone by lunchtime would be way too slow.
I don’t agree with the settlements and never will, but they aren’t going to “end” by Palestinians shooting rockets into Israel and killing civilians.
Nor has there ever been any reason for Israel to believe that its borders can be secured by ANYTHING other than force-of-arms. Recognition of Israel’s right to exist is the ejection handle on the Arab side. The thunderclaps would occur in Damascus rather than Tel Aviv.
Which outlines the problem in the main. The two sides cannot progress towards peace without some mutual face-saving exercises and exchanges for the politicians who try to make the peace. So far, those have been far fewer and shorter lived than the fanatics with guns and rockets and bulldozers and settlements. Assassination of peacemaking leaders on both sides has crippled the chances of actual peace.
The response of the Israeli Greens to the US Greens was interesting. Their point of view is clearly that of people surrounded by a sea of hostility, and that is something that is not and CANNOT be understood by anyone living safely in the USA (or New Zealand). It is interesting to see their perspective expressed in their words. It is dismayingly one sided. OTOH, the US Greens did EXACTLY what I counsel not to do, they took sides.
I do not think Keith’s statement is perceived by HIM as “taking sides”… it is the nature of asymmetric warfare that trips people here. Israel sees its justification as a matter of Self-Defense and in terms of the conflict as it is fought there, that is pretty much a correct assessment of what they needed to do.
Examining the Israeli government’s possible choices in these times, no viable option leads to peace with Hamas, much less with Syria and Iran.
The only way such an option opens up is when some heavy weight is put on the Palestinians and their patrons to agree to that right to exist IN EXCHANGE for removal of settlers from the illegal settlements. I suggest again a corridor between Gaza and the West Bank as part of that peace.
I don’t feel comfortable with Keith’s commentary…
“…and European nations are restricting themselves to calling on both sides to cease fire…” followed by a call to focus the pressure on Israel.
That is IMAO, taking sides, and I don’t doubt that the Israelis would see it that way if they paid any attention whatever to our pronouncements. They won’t hear anything he says beyond that call to focus…. he can’t help make peace. He can’t help anything at all. He’s basically made himself and the Greens irrelevant to any process that would actually bring peace.
To no useful purpose whatsoever.
respectfully
BJ
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Valis,
My declaration at 6.17am
Yes, am in total agreement that Palistinians should have their own sovereign state based in Gaza. Boundaries to be set by the UN.
To do that Hamas will have to disarm otherwise the Egyptians wont open the western Gaza border to enable normal daily live to commence for the Palistinians.
Something you and I agree on.
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The Greens could take a leaf out of Wikipaedia’s book where people for and against contribute but have to maintain neutrality (amongst other things).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2008%E2%80%932009_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict
Is Keith Locke neutral?
By claiming to be acting under the Green Charter, Green Party participants give themselves a free pass.
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Thank you Valis! Though your efforts may be wasted I fear. I never get tired of saying how much I support the UN – and find it typical (as a psychologist) that people see and hear what they want to. It doesn’t bother me much regardless. However, if you have a second look you’ll see their fault is @ They have taken a side and want someone to engage with. I stay silent because I’m listening and learning -an ability which, sadly perhaps, not all of us share.
There are a few rules in my house, but the very first of them was, and is, ‘no violence’. Though I may see fit to give some a verbal bite, it’s pretty rare.
However, to the point, I think the quality of information input is not good either in many cases – people go on what they’re told – and I promise you this mornings news has been scrubbed clean. No mention of war crimes. But then I have some options on gaining information – have several different cables operating at any time, and I don’t give this blog the time that I perhaps should.
I did feel bad for the UN worker (big irish bloke) who reached the bombed out UN school (white phosphorus); – they had quite a time deciding whether he could file or not. Well obviously he did, and I had my first look at someone trying to not cry and shout – force calmness upon himself as he stood amongst acres of true horror. Much worse than My Lai. Much worse than Bosnia. I can only hope and pray those children died quickly.
I wouldn’t bother arguing with people here – I have neither the time nor inclination.
But to remain silent would be, to participate in this mass murder. Would be to aid and abet Crimes Against Humanity. Few of the people who post here even imagine they have a duty to themselves to discover the truth. From both sides.
So, if there is justice in this case then those responsible should be brought to trial in Geneva. From both sides.
This morning the Syrian President descibed a Offer (that’s been standing for seven years) for the League of Arab Nations, to recognise Israel as ‘dead’. That is not a good portent.
Whatever the repercussions – I don’t think any problems have been solved by this action, or if so, not in relation or proportion to the harm done. On either or both sides.The fact that this military operation was launched in response to four deaths was widely reported and I never imagined people would deem it controversial.
Anyway – I don’t suppose TV can handle the images available today. They are true pornography and utterly sickening. There are three hundred freshly killed children today who had no part in any fight, and, it’s not on your News – fascinating. Keep on.
regards mark
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Mark
Proven by the point that while you badger on about the cause of the Israeli incursion are the four dead Israeli’s, when in fact it has been the 6000+ terrorising rockets over a number of years, fired from Gaza that was the primary reason.
That fact has been widely reported. So I guess your truth and mine as based on differing information sources.
As a psychologist, i sure you would be able to shed a light on why these interpretations are so different.
Your “truth” more correct then my “truth” and judged by whom?
Yep lets the UN do a war crimes inquiry and pull all the combatant from both sides into the International Court.
One “truth” we can both agree on.
And listening has to be accompanied by comprehension for it to be rationalised. Once that is done you can “bend” it to whatever “truth’ you want.
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Gerrit, I don’t think Mark is ignoring the 6000 number that you are fixated on, but simply trying to put it in perspective. I’ve tried to do this too, but you seem to develop the same conceptual block you so perceive in Mark.
As you predict, I have no issue with your post of 6:02am, but do please answer my two questions from last night 11:01.
BJ, I may not have time for a proper response until later today.
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“I never get tired of saying how much I support the UN – and find it typical (as a psychologist) that people see and hear what they want to.”
That’s better than something eredwen would come up with.
You haven’t shown anything other than how emotionally committed you are to one side of the argument. Bj has done the best job of looking at both sides. Hamas could have backed down in the face of obvious overpowering force but chose to sacrifice it’s citizens for political advantage.
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Valis,
Yes, I absolutely, intensely dislike and abhor what Israel has done.
Can I understand why they have done it. Yes.
Am I suprised that civilians are in the cross fire. No.
Many videos put out by the IDF show rockets being launched in public and populated areas.
Should I take sides? Not really, but I do as I see Hamas deliberately putting civilians (their own, plus the Israeli’s, under the rocket barrage).
Those rockets are not aimed at militiary Israeli targets.
If erderwen is so concerned about the grandchildren, perhaps she should look at that Hamas video where they exucute in barbaric fashion about 20 Fatah men (men who were once somebody’s grandchild).
Real heroes they are (someones grandchild once) to shoot people as they lie prone on the ground.
At least one had the decency to ensure a quick execution by double tap rounds in each victim after the botch up by those grown grand children so adored.
The main executioner is hopefully under a ton of Israeli induced rubble, never the threaten another grandchild.
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Mark,
Your a psychologist? I think you may have mentioned that previously. Does that mean you are a fully qualified clinical psychologist, a research/academic psychologist, a doctoral student, a masters student or a bachelors student? What was your thesis topic/s? More importantly; what academic institution? lol.
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Well Hi there Sapient!
Trained and worked in Medical Psychotherapy yes….more by a lucky opportunity to follow an interest than by design.
Spent a few thousand hours counselling (and occasionally still do). Luckily a Spec. friend of mine thought I had an aptitude and set about my education – an endlessly fascinating subject.
Not a Doctor – a physical injury put paid to my professional career twenty years ago (owned my own Record/CD Co).
Wrote out the long version but don’t want to Publish all that about Mark – would you believe some people think I support Hamas behaviour?
My friends all know I’m a Hurricanes Supporter and that’s about as tribal as it gets round here.
Think all violence utterly reprehensible and organised violence even moreso. None of it is OK with me. Am a Real Greenie (need I apologize? – What Here?)
However – also done enough media study to take the proverbial ‘pinch of salt’ when investigating ‘News stories’. But others have pointed that out already!
regards Mark
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BJ,
“If I am reading you correctly, your basic claim is that the Israelis have expanded their settlements in the West Bank and taken additional land in Gaza… I am quite sure this is true. You want us to highlight that but NOT to take the Palestinian side?”
We’ve gotten a bit confused with the various threads in this argument, which started over the Greens saying our govt should be taking a stronger stance regarding the current violence in Gaza and which was seen by you to be taking sides. I mentioned expanded settlements, etc, to counter those who started a second thread that the Palestinians deserved what they got due to the rocket attacks, just to make the point that the Palestinians had legitimate grievances too. So while all these things are linked of course, the way you’ve linked them is not what I meant.
“Are you referring to this from Keith? “…”While not absolving Hamas of blame, the main focus should be on stopping the massive Israeli offensive which is killing so many innocent people and destroying much of Gaza’s infrastructure.”
This more directly addresses your point in your first para. There is a difference between Hamas killing 4 Israelis and Israel responding by killing several thousand Palestinians, not to mention the massive infrastructure damage that will cause many others to suffer. Both parties actions are very wrong, but only Israel is causing a humanitarian disaster. Keith, the UN, etc, are reacting to this immediate disaster scenario, not trying to solve the whole problem in all its complexities.
“In other words, the weapons that Israel has, it is not ALLOWED to use, no matter how many rockets are fired?”
Not my view at all.
“There is no way for Israel to wage a “proportionate” war, and it is ridiculous to speculate on the ways it might do so.”
Tough. International law is quite clear on a proportionate response in defence of an attack. I can understand Israel’s frustrations, but they simply cannot be given carte blanche.
“There are three ways to end a war. You tear your opponent to bloody shreds, you get torn to bloody shreds, or you talk through the disagreements, sort out the problems and work to make a state of peace.”
Israel is in no danger from Hamas of the second option and it refuses to take the third, choosing the first because it wants more land.
“At no time has either side ever had a state of peace. They have only ever had a few shaky cease-fires, and there is a method to this madness of Israel’s. It is Dayan’s genius, but it is also folly. The assumption is that there will never be peace, and the settlements keep enemies off balance.”
Yes, this makes my previous point well.
“They in fact prevent peace just as certainly as the refusal to recognize the right of Israel to exist and negotiate in good faith.”
Two problems with this. First, I do not think they are equal barriers to peace. Refusal to recognise Israel is mainly politics for internal audiences. It is mainly conceptual, a threat, and while certainly not something I’d expect Israel to ignore, cannot be compared to the real taking of land and water, and the killing happening on the ground, over 99% of which is due to Israeli actions. Second, you seem to be laying the lack of good faith in negotiations entirely at the Palestinian’s feet. My reading is that Israel is the main culprit. Once a real land for peace deal is put on the table by Israel, you will see movement on the other side. I know I’m about to hear about Oslo and other negotiations, but the ignorance surrounding these is as much as with any other aspect of the conflict. The media simply parrots what the US and Israel say. But there has never been a fair land for peace deal for the Palestinians to consider.
“Can any Israeli government pull the settlements out and pull them down with the rockets coming into Israel? Not at all. There’d probably be a clap of thunder as the air rushed into the space it had formerly occupied. Gone by lunchtime would be way too slow.”
How about just stopping the expansion? Israel doesn’t have to do everything on its own, but it must take the first step because it is in the position of power.
“I don’t agree with the settlements and never will, but they aren’t going to “end” by Palestinians shooting rockets into Israel and killing civilians.”
Agree entirely. It requires political leadership by Israel, also a very difficult ask and requiring much pressure from the international community.
“Nor has there ever been any reason for Israel to believe that its borders can be secured by ANYTHING other than force-of-arms.”
How very, very wrong. Its boarders are not secure now and would not be with the largest military in the world, instead of the 4th largest (I said 5th before, but this is wrong). No, force-of-arms is necessary, but not sufficient. If they want a better security, they need a political solution as well to go along with their military strength. This is within their capacity if they wanted, but the evidence suggests that they may be willingly trading greater security for Palestinian land.
“Recognition of Israel’s right to exist is the ejection handle on the Arab side. The thunderclaps would occur in Damascus rather than Tel Aviv.”
Not a necessary first step and shouldn’t be an excuse for doing nothing as is currently the case.
“Which outlines the problem in the main. The two sides cannot progress towards peace without some mutual face-saving exercises and exchanges for the politicians who try to make the peace. So far, those have been far fewer and shorter lived than the fanatics with guns and rockets and bulldozers and settlements. Assassination of peacemaking leaders on both sides has crippled the chances of actual peace.”
I don’t disagree, but would add that it is not only about face saving. Peace for land is a viable option and one that should be given a go as you suggest below.
“The response of the Israeli Greens to the US Greens was interesting. Their point of view is clearly that of people surrounded by a sea of hostility, and that is something that is not and CANNOT be understood by anyone living safely in the USA (or New Zealand). It is interesting to see their perspective expressed in their words. It is dismayingly one sided. OTOH, the US Greens did EXACTLY what I counsel not to do, they took sides.”
Well, that’s true to a point, but if it were completely beyond our imagination, there’d be no point in even having a debate, which is absurd. I don’t want to deny their feelings, but note that they make no mention of the Palestinian’s predicament, let alone admit that life is many times harder for them. They accuse the US Greens of myopia in a most myopic way! In fact their statement is amazing. They even suggest that the US Greens have been hijacked by those who want to deny the existence of Israel! This is pretty standard rhetoric for many, but I’m dismayed that any Green Party would go there.
“I do not think Keith’s statement is perceived by HIM as “taking sides”… it is the nature of asymmetric warfare that trips people here. Israel sees its justification as a matter of Self-Defense and in terms of the conflict as it is fought there, that is pretty much a correct assessment of what they needed to do.”
Very naive if you think that’s all there is to it.
“Examining the Israeli government’s possible choices in these times, no viable option leads to peace with Hamas, much less with Syria and Iran.
The only way such an option opens up is when some heavy weight is put on the Palestinians and their patrons to agree to that right to exist IN EXCHANGE for removal of settlers from the illegal settlements. I suggest again a corridor between Gaza and the West Bank as part of that peace. “
Israel, being in the position of strength, needs to make the first move as argued above.
“I don’t feel comfortable with Keith’s commentary…
“…and European nations are restricting themselves to calling on both sides to cease fire…” followed by a call to focus the pressure on Israel.”
Again, Keith is reacting to the creation of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza. The same has NOT happened in Israel.
“That is IMAO, taking sides, and I don’t doubt that the Israelis would see it that way if they paid any attention whatever to our pronouncements.”
If its taking sides to be concerned that the vast majority of the destruction and death is in one direction, then so be it.
“They won’t hear anything he says beyond that call to focus…. he can’t help make peace. He can’t help anything at all. He’s basically made himself and the Greens irrelevant to any process that would actually bring peace.
To no useful purpose whatsoever.”
I cannot see how pretending the two sides in this case are equal helps generate peace. Nor do I expect Israel to take notice of NZ directly, no matter what we say or don’t say. We must work through the international community to influence public opinion, particularly in the States (another big ask I know). South Africa had no reason to change its ways until the international community ostracised it. This is despite the fact that black South African’s used violence against whites. While they were rightly called out for it, few argued that the govt didn’t need to take the leadership role in changing things. It’s the same in Israel.
I’ll just say again that to me, taking sides means denying the legitimacy of one side’s grievances. This we should not do as it is not only wrong, but affects the settlements that could therefore be seen as fair. Simply calling a spade a spade is not taking sides, even if it means pointing out that one side has more responsibility in a particular situation than the other.
I will be away a lot for the several few days, so sorry for any silence on my part.
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” Keith, the UN, etc, are reacting to this immediate disaster scenario, not trying to solve the whole problem in all its complexities.”
Keith is a left winger who hates America (capitalism) and sees Israel as its’ puppet.
When will the “UN” act against Myanmar?
Waihopia base comrades?
You people really trip up the green (as in environmental/ sustainability/ values) movement
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You’ve become a bore, jh.
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I watched a doco last night about children in Hondurus who are (allegedly) murdered by police death squads (or locals who are fed up and the police don’t investigate fully). I think it said 1/2 the pop’n is under 18.
It occurred to me that there is a continuum of how we perceive other people and their value to us: at the one end cute, cuddly pet rabbit and at the other vermin. This has relevance to how both sides may see each other in the Gaza/ Israel situation and whose side (if any) you are on. The Green party view seems to be based on the disproportionate nature of the response “only four deaths” and “have you seen what these home made rockets look like?”
How do the Israeli’s view the rocket attacks (and what is their intent)? I suggest the message is : “we are going to kill you! We can’t yet, but the world will change and we will never give up. Each rocket shows that we can touch you.”
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What’s with the green T shirts at the demo?
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“The Green party view seems to be based on the disproportionate nature of the response “only four deaths” and “have you seen what these home made rockets look like?”
Wrong. But those things, while by far not the only relevant aspects of the situation, ARE relevant. We point them out because they get ignored otherwise, not because they are the only thing that matters. If Israel had killed 4 people with their recent response, we wouldn’t be having this debate. That would in no way be denying the tragedy of even those few deaths for their families and community.
Suppose Hamas only fired one rocket and the IDF responded with a million? How about a nuke? Would you still be offended if the disparity was pointed out? If not, then the question becomes WHEN is the disparity large enough to be relevant, to be an issue in itself. The exact threshold in terms of numbers of rockets is probably not worth debating. More relevant is the effect on the ground. There is an immediate humanitarian disaster going on in Gaza that demands a response. The same is not occurring in Israel.
“How do the Israeli’s view the rocket attacks (and what is their intent)? I suggest the message is : “we are going to kill you! We can’t yet, but the world will change and we will never give up. Each rocket shows that we can touch you.”
Absolutely. And how might the Palestinians see the message from Israel? How about “We are going to kill you! While you dream of our destruction, we are bringing about yours right now! Your time is short. Not only do our rockets flatten your cities so much more effectively than anything you can do, we’re taking your land and water. Our weapons are not only rockets, jets and tanks, but induced poverty too, and our walls restrict your movement even for basic health care. You are the ones who are caged and doomed, not us.”
How does one respond to that? Not only many Palestinians, but many of us would choose to go down fighting.
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Valis: Inspired post and right down the line – thank you…don’t get burnt out chasing baits from what I presume are Paid Bigots here. Take that intrinsical understanding into Parliament – god knows, the US just got one, and we could use a few…cheers Mark
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“It occurred to me that there is a continuum of how we perceive other people and their value to us: at the one end cute, cuddly pet rabbit and at the other vermin. This has relevance to how both sides may see each other in the Gaza/ Israel situation and whose side (if any) you are on.”
Btw, I agree with this point entirely. Racism plays a big role too. Western Christians have long held prejudices against Jews of course, but to many they look positively godly next to Arabs, who’s culture is even more different to ours, particularly as Israel is at least a democracy. But the thing to look for in spotting bias is whether one side’s grievances are denied to the benefit of he other, not whether one’s assessment of a situation concludes that one side has more ability and responsibility than the other to take the lead in stopping bloodshed and progressing a peaceful solution.
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It is interesting that within the continuum of Christian thought there is the very certain belief that without Israel, there can be no second coming. These folk tend to be of a conservative stripe politically, and hence we have the backbone of the American Congressional Consensus on Israel. A strong, liberal, pro-Jewish component of the Democratic Party and a strong, conservative, pro-Israel component of the Republican Party. The logic that drives them is quite different but they are united in their resolve to ignore all reason in favour of maintaining the Jewish State.
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Thoughtful stuff – thank you gentlemen/women. I wouldn’t necessarily break down this problem into secular or racial division.
The similarities with the Irish problem (of some years ago) are almost eerie. Ancient emnities are handed down – segregation allowing demonisation of those neither known nor understood well.
There is an old maxim that says ‘Hurt people will hurt people’.
Thus the cycle becomes a self sustaining tragedy where neither side is interested in Peace any longer (plenty of evidence of this).
Looks more like ‘payback sucks don’t it?’
That is what concerns me when armies are sent into ‘enemy’ cities – it is unambiguous and creates a continuum of violence – not peace at all.
People who were prepared to live and let live become radicalised when their children/families are killed in the most vicious inhuman way (and both parties are involved at that level – even without keeping ‘score’).
So – what has the Israeli mission done? – imho created a new generation of Palestinian Extremists. Whether this was the main aim or not I would not like to guess (but I suspect so)..
Telling, is that Israel demands an embargo on open borders with Gaza – seems like they want these people (a nation state) to be, above all else, unable to even defend their homes and families.
Mahatma Ghandi might have been able to contemplate a non-violent approach, but I would suggest that should such a situation descend upon say, NZ, people would not even consider Peace as an option…..right and wrong are moveable goalposts – I don’t for a moment think this was about the deaths of four Israeli’s – my feeling is that it was designed to take specific advantage of the temporary lapse of power in the US govt. An opportunity, not only to commit war crimes on an inhuman scale, but to clam up media coverage of same.
Once independant Media are banned anywhere, I feel it’s because their reports would be full of condemnation. (Uh-oh)
Short, sharp, indiscriminate and hopefully, soon forgotten….no media coverage is a military victory in itself.
If a large number of people had seen the reports I have seen (and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone) I think the will to impose Peace would be virtually limitless. This alone is ‘the way out’.
But then – too many independant journalists have been killed trying to cover this story.
At the time of the anti-invasion Vote in the UN – I was most concerned with the way every person in the room looked absolutely terrified – I guess they knew what was coming…
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Cheers, Mark. Just saw your post, which must have got stuck in moderation for a bit. I try very hard not to chase the baiters, irresistible though it sometimes is. Of course, those like bj are not in that league at all and deserve a considered response.
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Ah…Write a lot more than even I am willing to post here…Views considered the epitome of moderation overseas (when I post them) are faaar left according a few expert commentators here….no, not BJ who is a gem and takes a lot more time and trouble than I would bother with….but again, my view is that certain Post-(er)s succeed if the thread is hi-jacked. The purpose is to halt any continuum of useful thinking.
Mind you, I saw a case recently where one of these went fishing and couldn’t get a bite here.
I was quite proud of this Blog for that – friends overseas are in touch with different Green Parties around the world, and I am always looking for something good to say about our own – and indeed, There Is Plenty – not least of which is your finer understanding.
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But the thing to look for
in spotting bias is whether one side’s grievances are denied to the benefit of
the other, not whether one’s assessment of a situation concludes that one side has more ability and responsibility than the other to take the lead in stopping bloodshed and progressing a peaceful solution.
………………
It depends on the grievance. Would Hamas be happy if the settlements were dismantled and, and or does it want to wipe Israel out?
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Some aspects of the situation may depend on the grievance, but not the concept of taking sides.
My opinion is that Hamas is very likely full of real fanatics, as you’d have to be to fire rockets into civilian neighbourhoods. The real question is how much support they’d have if the settlements were dismantled. Their support comes from the fact that they are among those that have stood up to Israel’s crimes. That they commit their own matters little to a population that is being traumatised (this should be easy to understand given that much of the Israeli population feels the same way though they have been put through far less). Take away the provocation and a population that gets its wealth in land and water back, along with let’s say an end to the economic embargo so the economy can function, will not so easily support a group that might return them to a life of extreme insecurity and poverty. In addition, the surrounding Arab states that support Hamas now, but know Israel is here to stay, are even less likely to act in a way that would make them look like supporting the sole aggressors.
Put another way, Hamas doesn’t really have that much power. What it does have comes from the extreme actions of Israel which legitimises Hamas in many Arab eyes. Take away this political cover and Hamas will have to change its goals radically or wither away. I don’t argue that Israel needs do all of the above unilaterally to achieve this, but they need to take genuine first steps at least.
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frog Says:
January 22nd, 2009 at 11:37 am
It is interesting that within the continuum of Christian thought there is the very certain belief that without Israel, there can be no second coming. These folk tend to be of a conservative stripe politically, and hence we have the backbone of the American Congressional Consensus on Israel.
…………………..
Y’reckon?
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Chris Hedges makes some interesting points on media coverage here:
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20090126_with_gaza_journalists_fail_again/
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Also interesting:
http://tomdispatch.com/post/175026/sandy_tolan_five_questions_for_george_mitchell
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many layers to the onion and many “ifs” and “buts”. BJ is right the Greens shouldn’t take sides.
One thing the characterises some of you is a simple Lord of the Rings view of right and wrong.
Anyway here’s Chriss Trotters opinion piece:
“”NOW is the time for New Zealand to stand up and be counted”, says the Greens foreign affairs spokesman, Keith Locke.
What we’ve all been taking lying down, says Keith, is “Operation Cast Lead”, Israel’s “murderous assault” on Gaza – which, he unabashedly asserts, “is clearly a war crime”.
A fairly substantial chunk of the New Zealand Left would echo Keith’s view. In part this is because a great many leftists see Israel as the primary instrument of “US imperialism” in the Middle East – making the Palestinian cause one of the World’s last great unresolved struggles for national liberation.
For leftists of Keith’s generation, people who came of age in the early-1960s, when the empires of the European powers were being challenged by a multitude of national liberation movements, the anti-colonial struggle was something to be supported wholeheartedly and unequivocally.
Even more exciting for these young leftists was the fact that most liberation movements espoused some variant of the socialist ideology, and many enjoyed the backing (overt or covert) of the Soviet Union and/or the Peoples Republic of China.
National liberation struggles and the socialist revolution seemed inextricably linked.”
http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2009/01/disproportionate-response.html
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That’s why I keep reading Chris. Its for the suspense, wondering when will be the next time he’ll get it spectacularly wrong. One of my favourites has always been his defense of the Kosovo bombings. Now we have Chris comparing Hamas to the Nazis as though tough talk matters more than actions. To top it off, he falsely accuses Keith of nary a word of condemnation of Hamas in a piece where he parrots Israeli talking points as though he was a paid agent (no I’m not suggesting he is). Priceless. Thanks jh.
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“One thing the characterises some of you is a simple Lord of the Rings view of right and wrong.”
You’ll have to explain that one, as we’ve been arguing that its too simplistic to ignore the detail of the crimes being committed by either side before coming to a conclusion. Its the likes of Chris Trotter who are over simplifying things by just repeating one side’s talking points (though he ably obfuscates this with a lot of irrelevant analysis about 1960′s liberation movements).
You never answered my question: Suppose Hamas only fired one rocket and the IDF responded with a million? How about a nuke? Would you still be offended if the disparity was pointed out?
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Valis: Please don’t try and change minds – your energies are best spent on the constructive, and are imho too fine to waste.
Have a look at some footage of what the Demo’s outside the White House are up to now (in their coldest month).
Huge campaigns about chuckin WhooshBush in Gitmo as a War Criminal – if you posted even a hint of that here – the interlopers would crucify you. NZ is even to the right of the US
- i mean it’s pathetic.
Also the students of Palestine are posting up formal protests at the moment and are interesting and far better informed than any of us Kiwi’s. Personally I hold the whole Human Sheild argument to be specious.
Would you or anyone you know use your child as a sheild?
Thought so,; neither I think, would these people.
The Educational Stucture (high international status) in Gaza has been destroyed.
Soon Palestinians will not afford a life in Gaza.
The Profits of Zion have already moved on to elections and a discussion about how best to nuke Iran – even the last US regime refused them permission to carry this out – however – the new Israeli Prime Minister may be that silly.
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