by frog
It’s was no surprise to me when Gerry Brownlee stated on Saturday that the Buy Kiwi Made programme will get the chop. Part of the cooperation agreement between the Greens and Labour in 2005, it brought to life the long standing vision of the late Rod Donald. It is ironic that just as we despearately need to shore up kiwi businesses and kiwi jobs, we axe a programme doing just that. As the advert says: When you buy kiwi made, we’ve got it made. NewZblog made a touching tribute here.
No one would argue that this programme alone is going to save all the jobs that are going to be lost due to the global recession, but MED’s own review of the programme showed that many more kiwis were conciously looking out for kiwi made goods and services as a result of the campaign. There is no doubt that keeping our cash circulating around the country just a few more times before it wanders overseas to pay for our oil and the interest on our debt keeps people gainfully employed, rather than on the dole queue. I guess we will just have to borrow more from overseas to pay some kiwi workers the unemployment benefit.
Published in Economy, Work, & Welfare by frog on Mon, December 8th, 2008
Tags: buy kiwi made, Frog, frogblog, gerry brownlee, green, new zealand, party
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Good riddance to a ridiculous feel-good indulgence at taxpayers expense.
“Minister of Economic Development Gerry Brownlee said no more money would be committed to the campaign, unless the review showed it to be effective.”
So – PROVE it is effective, and you can keep it. And not those mushy awareness metrics you were producing, actual sales volume data.
>>were conciously looking out for kiwi made goods and services
Meaningless.
It’s what they DO with their own money that counts.
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BTW: That poll data is useless. No business would base their strategy on it.
Again, what people SAY and what they DO are often two different things.
And the question didn’t appear to clearly differentiate between food and other products. It measured if they felt loyalty. Hey, what do you know – they do feel loyalty!
So what?
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“Rest assured Rod, you’ll always be 10x the man than National’s entire frontbench combined ever will be. ”
10x? How about 8.5x? 12x?
I guess the entire National front bench should resign now, because they’ll always be one tenth the people Rod Donald was.
It said so. On a student blog. So there.
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Icebaby – your recommendation re. National’s front bench is the only sensible thing you managed to say in all three of your vitriolic posts.
Have you bought and eaten some foodstuff made offshore and it’s given you a belly-ache? You should buy local.
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Are you going to attempt to explain *why* I’m wrong?
If your aim is to have people buy more New Zealand made products, then the only applicable measurement is: “Did people buy more New Zealand made products?”. If yes, continue. If no, stop.
The only way you’ll get more people buying New Zealand made is to errect trade barriers or for New Zealand producers to sell something people are prepared to buy, at a price they wish to pay.
I’m an exporter, btw.
>>Have you bought and eaten some foodstuff made offshore and it’s given you a belly-ache?
Not that I recall. I have had food poisoning in New Zealand restaurants, however.
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Frog
What on earth is wrong with evaluating the merits of this campaign?
If it works (and there is NO proof that it does) then the Nat’s will keep it, if it does not or has had no effect on the buying habits of Kiwi’s then it would be a waste of tax payer money to keep pushing the buy Kiwi made barrow.
To continue with the campaign simply because it was the brain child of Rod Donald would be ridiculous.
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Well, there’s a surprise. IMHO, creating an economy within an economy built on mere sentiment (?) was always going to be very precarious, especially during harder times. On the other hand, firms that have a good business model i.e. sell a quality product for reasonable prices would be a bit more steady…
Would’ve thought this sort of thing would make kiwi firms a little lazy too, but who’s to know?
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Has anyone read Sue Bradford’s media release on this? She says that a review was proposed anyway.
The Minister’s comments are sensible with regard to a review. However I’d suggest that the Terms of Reference need to be very clear. Contrary to Icebaby’s comments, Performance Measures for an ad campaign should be linked to awareness and propensity to purchase, not actual purchase. An ad campaign doesn’t aim to affect purchase directly, it aims to create the conditions for a purchase decision i.e. brand awareness and knowledge (and at a stretch propensity to purchase).
Does advertising work? Seems to. Product companies still pay for it.
There’s a fundamental question here – “Does the government support NZ manufacturers?”. Are there any left to support??
As a consumer I prefer to see my dollars circulating in the NZ economy rather than drifting overseas. And I’m prepared to put a small part of my tax dollars into making people aware of NZ-made versus overseas-made.
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PS I’d be interested in seeing the Briefing to Incoming Minister (BIM) from MED. I wonder whether it supports the campaign or recommended dropping it?
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>>An ad campaign doesn’t aim to affect purchase directly, it aims to create the conditions for a purchase
I’ll remind you of the name of this campaign: “Buy NZ Made”.
There is only one appropriate metric for such a campaign, everything else is pure bull. I’ve been in the game long enough to know when marketers – in this case politicians and their agencies – set up loose success metrics so they can’t “fail”.
>>Does advertising work? Seems to. Product companies still pay for it.
For adverting to work, the message must resonate with the consumer. This is by no means a given.
If advertising always worked i.e. produced more value than it cost, operating a business would be a walk in the park. You’d simply borrow as much as possible, and buy as much advertising as possible.
It doesn’t work like that. The reality is a lot of advertising money doesn’t generate a positive return.
>>“Does the government support NZ manufacturers?”
I’m an exporter, and it does squat for me. I survive because I sell what people want to buy.
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Here’s an example: David Beckham.
Awareness of the match in the weekend was very high. So was this a good marketing spend? No, because the only metric that mattered was the number of paying people through the gate.
As far as I can tell, the Buy NZ Made campaign isn’t even measuring “the gate”, just awareness levels.
Which mean squat.
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I did some work with exporters of food products a couple of years ago and they found that they could sell as profitably locally as overseas (note the revenue from exporting was higher but so were the costs). The reason they hadn’t been selling locally was because they perceived a lack of a market. They invested in some advertising and local sales picked up to the point where exporting became a choice, rather than a need. These were single companies, hence a direct link could be made between advertising and sales. Not possible with a campaign like “Buy NZ Made” because it is seeking to infuence the consumer, rather than sell an inidvidual company’s products.
Note that the companies I’m referring to above are now exporting and selling locally because they expanded production beyond the capacity of the local market.
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Advertising doesn’t always work and that that does doesn’t
(that that does doesn’t!) always benefit the consumer. Coca Cola – it’s the real thing!
A campaign like ‘Buy New Zealand made aims to do more than just sell a product and should be judged by a broader criteria. Perhaps one with an ethical component.
Icebaby says, ‘I survive because I sell what people want to buy.’
If people want to buy goods whose production damages the environment, will you sell those goods to them?
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Regarding David Beckman match, I agree totally because a link can be made between sales and promotion.
The same link can’t be made with Buy NZ Made because it spans sales across multiple companies in multiple sectors. That doesn’t mean it’s ‘bad spend’ as long as it is achieving what it is supposed to – keeping ‘Buy Kiwi Made’ in local consumers heads.
Saying that, it is just a tool and if the Government doesn’t want to support NZ companies by raising awareness of “Buy Kiwi Made’ then maybe the campaign should be dropped.
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“If people want to buy goods whose production damages the environment, will you sell those goods to them?”
Yes he should, if the people decide of their own free will that they no longer want his products then the market for that product will disappear.
It is a question of choice and something that the left fail to grasp.
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Perhaps one could’ve said who’s environment?
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big bro – you live in an ethics-free zone? Would you sell guns to gangsters?
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StephenR – you have the inside running on the ownership of the environment?
Do tell!
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>>should be judged by a broader criteria. Perhaps one with an ethical component.
Is it ethical to fund poor businesses?
I suspect what you’re really suggesting is to measure the spend by how far it spreads your parties agenda and propaganda.
>>keeping ‘Buy Kiwi Made’ in local consumers heads
If it’s such a good idea, then local business can band together and fund it themselves. I don’t see why my business should fund it. After all, they don’t fund mine.
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big bro – ‘people decide of their own free will’ whether or not to buy this or that? Come on …!
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$NZ1 = $US0.50 will do more to get people to buy NZ made than Ollie on the telly.
>It doesn’t work like that. The reality is a lot of advertising money doesn’t generate a positive return.
I have just returned to NZ, and find most advertising annoying, intrusive and so insulting to my intelligence it creates a desire not to deal with the advertiser.
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greenfly,
Heh, no, but ‘environment’ is such a vague term isn’t it?
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spend some more time around the Greens, Stephen,and you’ll pick up some pretty good ideas on what the environment is – after all, it’s the primary focus of the party.
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Besides, the notion that people should “Buy New Zealand Made” is also fraught with problems. Sometimes, it can be a negative to buy NZ Made.
For example, if Kiwi Business X is a poor, wasteful business, propped up by subsidies, and employment levels are high, then X is using valuable labour resources that could be used elsewhere in the economy.
If those resources were used by efficient Company Z (providing needed services), the return to the New Zealand taxpayer, in terms of increased productivity and return, could be higher.
In this case, buying New Zealand made would be a negative for all concerned. Except the fat-cat owners of X.
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What do you think about “country of origin labelling’? Do you think consumers should be given the opportunity (via overt labelling) to choose Kiwi Made or overseas made?
Also do you think they should be educated on the reasons to buy Kiwi Made beyond price considerations (assuming the quality is OK)?
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>>These were single companies, hence a direct link could be made between advertising and sales. Not possible with a campaign like “Buy NZ Made” because it is seeking to infuence the consumer
But it can’t tell if it did or not. Awareness is easy – you just buy up lots of advertising and you get awareness.
You’ve got to eventually measure the sales statistics, else all you’ve got is “maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t”
Not good enough.
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IceBaby – who said poor businesses were being funded by the Buy Kiwi Made campaign? Can you prove that ridiculous statement? No.
‘Recently, New Zealanders have been encouraged to buy New Zealand-made goods. Do you make a point of buying New Zealand-made goods?
Just how much closer to “more purchases of kiwi made goods” could you get than that question? How would you measure the success of the campaign, since you claim to be the expert in such matters? It seems to me that you are arguing out of malice than any real knowledge or interest in the programme. (As usual)
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PS I don’t think a But NZ made campaign necessarily props up inefficient businesses. It simply puts “NZ Made” in a consumers head when they are weighing up whether to buy something or not. The final decision will still be symptomatic of a bunch of factors including price and quality. That’s why it’s misleading to try and link the campaign directly to sales.
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>>What do you think about “country of origin labelling’?
There is no need for it to be compulsory. I note that my local Woolworths marks country of origin voluntarily.
>>Also do you think they should be educated on the reasons to buy Kiwi Made beyond price considerations
Do you think they should be educated on the reasons to buy Chinese Made beyond price considerations?
I suspect you’d be outraged if the National government used taxpayer money to educate the public on comparative advantage in that context, eh…..
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IceBaby
I think it’s sensible for a government to give local business an advantage over overseas competitors in any way it can get away with. The fact is that local companies return more to the local economy than overseas companies (check out the Treasury website if you want proof of this statement).
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>>who said poor businesses were being funded by the Buy Kiwi Made campaign? Can you prove that ridiculous statement? No.
Are you saying *all* kiwi manufacturing businesses are run well?
>>Do you make a point of buying New Zealand-made goods?
It’s a feel-good question. To say “no” would make a lot of people feel unpatriotic and disloyal.
Does “goods” mean food? Did those surveyed think it did? If so, then everyone would answer “yes”. How could they otherwise?
>>How would you measure the success of the campaign, since you claim to be the expert in such matters
I wouldn’t start such a campaign, and neither would you if you were spending your own money. The whole campaign is based on flawed logic on so many levels.
Until you can get effective measurement in place, then you’re flying blind. Don’t you really want to know if people ARE actually buying more New Zealand made products?
As I’ve said, any idiot can generate awareness…..
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Somehow, I don’t think the environment was uppermost in the thinking of those running this campaign, ‘carbon miles’ or not.
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Icebaby says,
‘any idiot can generate awareness’
Does this explain your mission here Ib?
Skinman – your take on the issue is a good one. Permutations and ramifications are important in this case. It’s not open and shut, as less thoughtful commenters are spouting. Measuring outcomes here is a subtle art, not a ’slap a ruler on it’ kind of process.
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Hi Stephen
I’m interested in your last comment. What’s it based on? Actual evidence? If you’re making an assumption are you able to tell us what your assumption is based on?
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Skinman,
Everything I say is based on what experiences i’ve had with the campaign, which basically boils down to the Oliver Driver cyborg exhorting us to buy NZ made, so we can keep NZers in jobs, make more money for Kiwis – aaand that’s pretty much it.
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stephenR – the environment underpins most Green activity, in my opinion. Localise your activities and reduce wear and tear on the environment. It’s a basic tenet.
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Thanks Stephen.
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Frog
In your original post for this thread you wrote “but MED’s own review of the programme showed that many more kiwis were conciously looking out for kiwi made goods and services as a result of the campaign.”. I followed the link and it was a PR and didn’t mention the campaign, only people’s propensity to “Buy Kiwi Made”. Can you confirm the release is specific to the campaign. Do you know if there is a baseline measure to compare people’s attitudes pre-campaign?
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But localisation can easily be FAR from environmentally friendly; ‘reduce wear and tear’, however, is something anyone can relate to, and why people overseas would perhaps choose NOT to buy locally.
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Icebaby said:
‘Does “goods” mean food? Did those surveyed think it did? If so, then everyone would answer “yes”.’
Well, no, Ib. Much of the food produced in New Zealand falls short of ‘good’ by the standards some people (organisations/businesses eg Demeter/Biogrow) use. Curiously, the closer you do get to ‘local’ the better the standard of food produced – Farmers markets for example thrive in part because of this factor. Sympathies btw for your gastronomic troubles.
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What do you all reckon about social advertising in general? For example, remember the “3-second rule” road safety ads. I remember driving with my Dad and he was counting the distance between cars with me “1,2,3…”, Now we seem to be back to the “no-second rule” and nose to tail accidents are increasing. Given that NZTA costs up a life lost on a road at $2m (and assuming that one of these nose to tails results in loss of life or significant injury), I wonder whether there is a case for an ad campaign refreshing the original campaign.
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as far as measurements go, the idea would be to determine the extent to which imports fell over the period after adjusting for such factors as economic growth, exchange rate etc.
a couple of points:
1.) even if we find the ads have been been successful, it doesn’t mean continuing to run them would continue to be as productive once we have already got the message now. the suggestion seems to be that we will remember to try to buy kiwi made as long as we are being fed that slogan daily, but will forget once we aren’t being told constantly.
i’d say the marginal effect of advertizing wears off after a while & it needs to be given a rest from time to time.
2.) a dollar spent on an import item doesn’t always feed debt. it can feed efficiency if we can get something better from overseas, while overseas buyers can then spend the money on something we do better here in nz, but for which there might be no (or inadequate) domestic market.
note in my measurement criteria above i said nothing about exports, but if the idea is import substitution, it might well lead to exports decreasing in tandem to imports. it’s too complex to say for sure, & that itself makes the value of the campaign questionable
3.) i for one don’t find the ads all that impressive or helpful. they don’t tell me how i might go about sourcing nz made items. they don’t provide a comparison between the quality of, & benefits of buying nz made.
this “eduction” some of you have mentioned is entirely lacking, it’s just sloganeering.
perhaps there is more to the campaign that i haven’t seen because of not being in one of the industries targetted or something, but all i’m seeing is a message that nz makes some good stuff & i could consider buying nz made stuff – as if i couldn’t figure that out
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Stephen – but we are talking about our own fair isles here. There is tremendous potential for us to produce locally in a manner that is environmentally friendly, that is at least, until the Nat/Actiods destroy the useful parts of the resource management Act ( and discard the Buy New Zealand made campaign). The trend should be toward, not away from, local, quality, ecofriendly production.
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Greenfly,
Do you have a counter argument? Ever spent money on advertising campaigns and measured their effectiveness?
“It’s not open and shut, as less thoughtful commenters are spouting. Measuring outcomes here is a subtle art, not a ’slap a ruler on it’ kind of process.”
Could only be said by someone who is not spending their own money. “Oh, I’m sure it’s good. It feels good, so it must be good!”
A very 1980s approach to advertising, and a reason the industry as a whole is sinking fast.
In 2008, it’s all about measurement.
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>>Well, no, Ib. Much of the food produced in New Zealand falls short of ‘good’ by the standards some people
What are you on about? “Goods”, not good. Follow the MED link Frog provided…
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skinman, i love the 3 second rule, but i whybother advertizing to people who, after all, already have their driver’s licence, when we could just employ more traffic police & cancel the driver’s licence of anyone who can’t seem to remember the rules – heck this programme could even pay for itself if we confiscate their vehicles too!
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Just been doing some research and found this on the “Buy Kiwi Made” wesbite” for every $1m of imports replacement are:
The creation of 11.16 jobs.
Government expenditure on unemployment benefit declines by $118,836.
Government income tax revenue increases by $117,214.
Increase in purchasing power $194,887.
In addition to the calculated figures above there are also the flow-on growth & export opportunities that arise but can not be easily quantified.”
Can’t find a lot else about the reasons for the expenditure other than it being part of the confidence & supply agreement. On that basis, I’d have to change my views and agree with IceBaby that if the rationale provided for thr funding was “import replacement” than preformance should be measures againist that metric.
If this campaign is to be canned perhaps the Greens can hook up with Business NZ to seek Government funding for “Buy NZ Made”????
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Thought you were just talking being ‘green’ in general.
As there is anywhere, I guess? Are you talking just organic food, or high/higher value stuff, like some manufacturing is? Most services (e.g. financials) are already eco-friendly, I suppose.
Fine, but that’ll cost a fair bit! The income tax cut/carbon tax combination was a good step in that direction, beats simple coercion, which I bet some ‘greens’ would be keen on, on the basis that ‘it should be’.
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Icebaby – I run a small business and pay for my own advertising, so I guess your haughty pronouncements’
‘Could only be said by someone who is not spending their own money. “Oh, I’m sure it’s good. It feels good, so it must be good!”
are wrong
Assessing the effects of advertising isn’t easy and can require patience. Often unforseen opportunities arise at unexpected times. For example, some of my advertising is in magazines that can sit for years in reception areas of doctors, dentists etc. and be read many, many times.
I picked you for a measuring kinda guy,
“In 2008, it’s all about measurement.”
Do you drive a 4×4?
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Hi Andrew
Like your comments particularly with regard to the marginal effect of advertising. You’re right, why continue to chuck dollars at it if NZ has got the message? As it is an awareness-based thing then why not reduce expenditure now and give it a burst every few years to keep awareness up?
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Greenfly, look at Skinman’s numbers above.
If the cost is higher than the benefit, then can it. If you’re not even in a position to measure the benefit, you’re not accountable.
>>Do you drive a 4×4?
M3 BMW
>>I run a small business and pay for my own advertising,
Then give me your advertising budget, I’ll spend it generating some vague awareness for you, and I’ll send you the bill. You won’t care if it worked or not, because you’re not into measurement.
If that gave you pause for thought, then you might understand my concerns about the Greens *forcing* me to do the same.
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are you good at advertising Ib? Has your own advertising brought significant custom to your own business? If so, I’ll definately consider it.
The Greens are forcing you, Ib? Taking your tax dollar, I suppose you mean. Perhaps your input into the programme should equal the amount you contribute – any idea how much that is (use your measuring skills to work it out). I’d like to see the figure you come up with.
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>>are you good at advertising Ib? Has your own advertising brought significant custom to your own business?
I am, yes. But you’re contradicting yourself. You’re now asking for *measurement*.
>>The Greens are forcing you, Ib?
Yes. I think government has no place in various areas, advertising select sectors of the business community, for political gain, being one of them.
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Ib – I don’t want you to measure your gains from advertising Ib – your opinion would be sufficient. How do you feel about your effectiveness. I trust you.
The Government should keep out of the business arena, Ib? A free-for-all in advertising for business? Fat and sugary advertisements during the after-school television programming? Where are your ethics?
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>>I trust you.
You shouldn’t.
What you should so is set clear KPIs to see if I’m a help or a hindrance to your business.
>>Where are your ethics?
Are you saying they should be the same as yours, else I’m unethical?
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Icebaby – no. I just enquired as to where they were. Do you, for example, support the advertising of disease inducing foods to children during their dedicated viewing times?
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Do you support an entity collecting money from clients, investing it in the arms industry, losing it, then demanding the client pays more to cover the loses?
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I support the client looking for a new entity, should they decide that the deal is a poor (or unethical) one.
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Good to hear. Then you’ll be all for opening up ACC to competition.
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IceBaby – the programme does have clear KPIs, which are being met. Get over it. Just because they are not your KPIs doesn’t make the programme fatally flawed.
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And what KPIs would those be, frog? Awareness?
Should call it the “I’ll Certainly Think About Buying New Zealand Made” campaign….
But then one would ask….
How much that costs….
And how much we really benefit….
But that would require decent KPIs….
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This is discussed alos on The Visible Hand
http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2008/12/07/bye-bye-buy-new-zealand-made/#com ments
includes a link to this article:
http://www.infometrics.co.nz/article.asp?id=4321
I think the criticisms of “Buy NZ Made” (above) stack up but there are other concerns about “cheap junk’ from the poor and over populated. These include the erosion of values as the media brainwashes us through relentless advertising and also the spend, spend mentality that leaves us in debt and using the property market to boost GDP (what Gareth Morgan called Labours Third World Solution):
http://nbr.infometrics.co.nz/column.php?id=409
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I’d like to see country of origin very clearly labled on everything but most importantly food.
Promoting ‘made in New Zealand’ is good but not allowing us to see where things have come from is the sort of thing which is in the intersts of places like china …………….. not new zealanders .
Just like allowing the insurance industry scoundrels to run accident compensation will not be in the interests of new zealanders.
As has been shown by the recent global teetering of the worlds economies …………… the private sector and the ‘markets’ can waste and burn billions and destroy wealth at a rate that puts govts to shame.
Their nature is greed, the results ………. boom and bust . ……. Dandy KPI’s those ……………..
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>>Just like allowing the insurance industry scoundrels to run accident compensation will not be in the interests of new zealanders.
And allowing the current lot to run it is? They just lost $1B. Funds already collected from the taxpayer and they blew it on “investments”. Now they are asking for us to pay it twice! How can you excuse this? How can anyone?
>>I’d like to see country of origin very clearly labled on everything but most importantly food.
I’d like to see the race and religion of each person who made the product clearly labeled. And I’ll demand you pay for it. In the interests of consumer information, of course…
>>the private sector and the ‘markets’ can waste and burn billions and destroy wealth at a rate that puts govts to shame.
Compared to whom? Cold war Russia?
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Icebaby – I’m still waiting for your response to this seemingly innocent question,
‘Do you, for example, support the advertising of disease inducing foods to children during their dedicated viewing times?’
You are a great demander of answers but a poor deliverer.
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>>‘Do you, for example, support the advertising of disease inducing foods to children during their dedicated viewing times?’
Depends what you mean by disease inducing foods. I certainly don’t think kids should be sat in front of the television for long periods of time, which is a disease in itself.
In any case, my kids know how to use the TiVo. They FF through the ads….
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nice non-answer Ice. Good for your kids though. Now, what about those less fortunate than they…?
Lashings of sugar and fat all round is it?
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There’s nothing wrong with sugar and fat, so long as it is consumed in moderation. So, no, I don’t have any problems with it, personally.
In any case, the kids aren’t buying the food, their parents are. That’s the more interesting question.
Why are their parents that stupid that they’d let a child tell them what to do?
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Icebaby said: >>Just like allowing the insurance industry scoundrels to run accident compensation will not be in the interests of new zealanders.
And allowing the current lot to run it is? They just lost $1B.
Try looking behind the Nats’ spin IceBaby. ACC didn’t “lose” $1B – the actual figure for the current year is $297m and it is the extent to ACC is underfunded by the taxpayer in the non-earner’s account. What National are proposing to privatise is the work account, which is completely different. And the $297m shortfall is not all attributable to investments failing to meet expectations (which in a recession is lijkely anyway) – some is also due to medical treatment costs increasing, over which ACC has no control.
Anyway, anyone who thinks privatising ACC’s work account is a good idea should take a look at this report. Should be require Christmas hols reading for Nick Smith.
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Ice – in your world, the children consume sugar and fat in moderation and don’t pressure their parents to buy obesity and diabetes-causing foods as seen on tv? Sweet! Phat!
(Have you noticed it’s not like that outside of your gingerbread house?)
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>>ACC didn’t “lose” $1B -
Not according to my accountant. There’s more to come out, and it isn’t pretty….
>>some is also due to medical treatment costs increasing, over which ACC has no control.
More mismanagement. Weren’t you the one castigating Treasury for getting their oil projection prices wrong?
Mind you, your mate frog has had a fall from its high horse in that respect, eh….
http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/21/frogs-oil-befu/
“You see, the futures market just cannot get its head around the idea of peak oil, so whatever today’s price is, is pretty much what the futures market says will be the price for the next five years. (a flat line) This trendline uses yesterday’s data, which has already been superceded by today’s high of US$129/bbl”
Embarrassing!
Certainly hope its AGW projections are more reliable…..
But I suspect they won’t be….
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>>Ice – in your world, the children consume sugar and fat in moderation and don’t pressure their parents to buy obesity and diabetes-causing foods as seen on tv? Sweet! Phat!
Greenfly, of course kids are demanding. But it is not a parents job to concede to every demand.
The parent is responsible for the childs food intake, not the child. If my kids are told they can’t have something, they can’t have it. End of story.
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Good oh Ice. Your children have no disposable income and no freedom of choice to buy whatever they want from the shops? I thought you were one of those anti-nanny types, but it seems that you prefer the authoritarian model. I suppose it doesn’t concern you that your fellow New Zealanders, through the stupidity that you referred to, are loading up our health system with … obese and diabetic children, for which, I guess, you will have to pay your contribution. While paying for the Buy New Zealand Made campaign with your taxes irritates you, paying the hospital bills for these children of ’stupid’ parents doesn’t? You’ve a curious way with you, Ice!
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>>Your children have no disposable income and no freedom of choice to buy whatever they want from the shops?
Nope. They’re too young.
>>thought you were one of those anti-nanny types
The term nanny applies to…..children, yes? I don’t believe in letting kids fend for themselves, if that’s what you mean. I think I’d be put in jail if I didn’t nanny them.
>>your fellow New Zealanders, through the stupidity that you referred to, are loading up our health system with … obese and diabetic children
Yet another reason to put the true costs of irresponsible behavior back on those who indulge in it. Isn’t that what the Greens are advocating in the arena of, say, pollution?
>>paying the hospital bills for these children of ’stupid’ parents doesn’t?
It certainly does. See above.
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how far do we go with society’s responsibility for children’s diet? all chocolate & chips to be sold in black & white wrappers with text only (no pictures) on the packet? from a back room out of sight from the main shop area, only on demand to the staff?
with a cabbage taste added to make it unappealing to children?
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‘Yet another reason to put the true costs of irresponsible behavior back on those who indulge in it’
You mean the advertisers, yes? Or are you sticking with your line that they bear no responsibility – that it is the consumer that must shoulder all that?
Kids are generally greatly attracted to advertising. Why are you denying yours the pleasure of bathing in it like most other children do? Worried that it might affect their behaviour? I presume you encouraged your children to use the FF.
If it irks you to pay for the treatment of the children of ’stupid’ parents, would you not be wise to look at the factors that cause the problem – exploitive advertising for example? Could save you a bundle.
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andrew – how far indeed? No distance at all, do you think? Open market for the kiddies? Let the advertisers (bless their benevolent hearts) decide for us parents? Whad’ya think?
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>>I’d like to see country of origin very clearly labled on everything but most importantly food.
“I’d like to see the race and religion of each person who made the product clearly labeled. And I’ll demand you pay for it. In the interests of consumer information, of course…”
There you go again, trying to pretend that labelling something with the name of the jurisdiction it was made in – hence imparting to the purchaser some idea of the rules its manufacture followed – can be equated with racism. It’s a stupid argument, and I doubt if you really believe it.
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>>Kids are generally greatly attracted to advertising. Why are you denying yours the pleasure of bathing in it like most other children do?
My kids prefer the programs to the ads. In fact, I’ve yet to meet a child who asked to watch ads. Shrek, certainly. Honey Puffs – not once.
>>You mean the advertisers, yes?
No, the user of health services. The parent.
>>Or are you sticking with your line that they bear no responsibility
The parent could turn off the television. They could watch DVDs. They could record the programs and FF the ads. They aren’t forced to watch the ads. The parents aren’t forced to buy the product. Doesn’t the parent bear a lot of that responsibility?
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Sam,
No, that’s not my point.
My point is this: the Greens say origin labeling is in the interests of consumer information, yes? Well, what if one group of consumers wanted to know the race and religion of those who produced the food? They would use the same argument i.e. it’s in the interests of consumer information.
What you’re doing is insisting everyone pay for your minority interest i.e. origin. Most people don’t care where it is from, and if they did, then the manufacturer would provide it.
It’s also part of the Greens political agenda, which complicates matters further.
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IB – your maintain (ad nauseum) that there should be no responsibility for the effects of advertising at the Advertisers end. I can’t dent your ideology at all. I find your evasive and disingenuous zigging and zagging kinda boring and I’m sure you feel the same way about my dogged insistance, so, like the bald man, I’m out’a here!
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I can’t believe commenters are saying this was a waste of time. People have known since the dawn of commerce that buying local produce helps local people. It’s common sense.
Maybe these people would prefer if the government had just legislated somehow to make people buy Kiwi made. I bet the same people complain about the Nanny State legislating against businesses being able to do whatever they want.
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Way past time NZ looked at producing more of our own goods anway – ethanol and electric cars – through to quality cigars.
Independance from overseas suppliers (much as we can) is the way for our Tax Dollar to be invested…we already produce our own oil, yet it is of such high quality, that we export it all and import a cheaper product…
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>>there should be no responsibility for the effects of advertising
Where did I say that? The problem I have with your position is that it is a slippery slope. Can you ban everything that might cause harm through over/misuse? Wouldn’t it be better if people exercised more self control? You can’t wrap everyone up in cotton wool. They won’t learn, and they’ll become dependent.
>>People have known since the dawn of commerce that buying local produce helps local people. It’s common sense
Not necessarily. You need to consider comparative advantage….
>>Maybe these people would prefer if the government had just legislated somehow to make people buy Kiwi made.
You haven’t been paying attention, have you…..
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Bradford just got demolished on CloseUp with the same arguments I’ve been making today.
Ineffective. Measuring the wrong data. Politically motivated. Flawed on so many levels.
Good riddance. What an utter waste of taxpayers money as I’ve said all along.
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fwwog,
we New Zealand have been devalued by all major currencies,
so why would we want to buy their goods at inflated prices,
Rod Donald was right,
We do buy new Zealand but what is there here except milk,
and some trees, and computer programes.
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>>Bradford just got demolished on CloseUp with the same arguments I’ve been making today.
The interviewer was really objective eh? Anyway, why did Brownlee consider his appearance on the program to be infra dig.?
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On the subject of Buy NZ Made and Buy Kiwi Made.. both two seperate campaigns, one government funded and one member funded..
The Buy NZ Made Campaign is run out of Business NZ and owns the rights to the kiwi-in-a-triangle logo. Members join the campaign mainly to obtain a licence to use the logo on their products and marketing material.
All companies need to advertise in some way to let the consumer know about their products. Buy NZ Made helps their members advertise their companies and their products through two seperate websites.
1) The Buy NZ Made members site where anyone can go and view all the members and the type of products they make through the member product finder or view more detail of those members who have chosen to list in the member directory.
2) getnzmade.net which helps companies sell their New Zealand made products, advertises their websites and helps build relationships between manufacturers and retailers. This web site has only been operational since the 1st of September and was buillt with 50% funding from the Buy Kiwi Made Campaign funding rounds. (the other 50% was paid for by the Buy NZ Made Campaign)
Buy NZ Made helps members find support and outlets to promote their products and offers support.
It would be fair to say that the majority of Buy NZ Mades 1264 members are smaller business that value the support that they provide and the marketing assistance they receive from joining the campaign.
The Buy NZ Made Campaign and the kiwi-in-a-triangle log has been around for 20 years and will continue to help manufacturers and retailers for many years to come.
The Buy NZ Made message should be a simple one. our imports over exceed the amount of locally produced product that we buy and it would be fair to say that there are quite a few products that will never be produced in New Zealand, so I dont believe we are in danger of replacing our imports.. these are now just a fact of life.
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Perhaps there’s not much point talking about the past.
BTW: Did you see the 60 minutes article on electric cars? All good to go, and a few arriving here next year for local testing.
Just another one of those things the Greens have got wrong…..
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kitsha nice post, relevant to point # 3 in my first post.
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frog: “the programme does have clear KPIs, which are being met.”
what are they? are they similar to the one i proposed?
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“…your minority interest i.e. origin. Most people don’t care where it is from, and if they did, then the manufacturer would provide it.”
hey icebaby, most people don’t care about anything – it is always only a small group of concerned people who get anything done (whether good or bad) at all.
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greenfly I’m still waiting for your response to this seemingly innocent question,
‘how far do we go with society’s responsibility for children’s diet? all chocolate & chips to be sold in black & white wrappers with text only (no pictures) on the packet? from a back room out of sight from the main shop area, only on demand to the staff?
with a cabbage taste added to make it unappealing to children?’
You are a great demander of answers but a poor deliverer.
sorry about my dogged insistence!
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andrew – sorry to keep you waiting – I’ve been moving hives.
In my opinion, society should balance its intervention on issues where food and children intersect (advertising and point of sale) with possible outcomes, in particular, harmful ones. Melamine laced sweets should be withdrawn, not left on the shelves for children to buy, should they choose to be risk takers/not care/not know. Other foods shown to be problematic (perhaps contributing to obesity etc) need some degree of management by someone other than children. Cigarettes are managed in this way. So are other products that can do harm. The control of such substances should hardly be left in the hands of minors or those who profit from the sale of that stuff, should they? I trust this addresses your concerns.
btw I bristle at the suggestion that I dion’t answer the questions (especially those posed innocently) asked of me
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andrew – btw, I wasn’t to know that your question was directed at me and …
whats wrong with the taste of cabbage?
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Extracted from “Why Buy New Zealand Made?” at http://www.republican.co.nz
(For the full text visit the website)
….The problem with these “economic nationalist” strategies is that they necessarily involve an abdication of control by the consumer and the investor in favour of the entrepreneur. If you invest in a New Zealand business (other than one of your own that you control personally, or one in which you have a significant share holding and therefore a significant influence) then you trust the party that does exercise control (the major shareholder, or the managing director, or even the chief executive) to do the “right” and wise thing. If you purchase New Zealand-made goods at a premium that reflects your support for New Zealand industry, then you are in effect making a cash donation to the producer of those goods, again in the hope or expectation that he or she will do the “right” and wise thing. But you have no control over actual outcomes. Your effective transfer of economic power to another can have unintended and unanticipated consequences that are quite at odds with your prior hopes and expectations.
By helping create a class of affluent New Zealand capitalists, you assist those who may be wanting to buy their second, third or fourth home or farm to compete in the market with those who are trying to buy their first. “Buy New Zealand made” and the unintended consequence may be that you price yourself or your children out of a home, a farm, or a business.
And if you think that buying New Zealand made will keep New Zealand businesses in New Zealand hands, then think again. Successful New Zealand businesses are even more likely than failing ones to move into foreign ownership. The almost universal tendency among successful New Zealand entrepreneurs is to cash up, and decamp to Sydney, London, New York or Geneva, in a pattern that dates back to the beginnings of the colonial era. ……
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This article assumes that NZ Manufacturers earn a huge profit from the products they produce. Sadly this is often not the case. Many manufacturers struggle to keep their manufacture in New Zealand due to high wage and compliance costs.
It is interesting to note that our manufacturers who produce their products offshore for a cheaper rate very rarely reduce their product pricing as they have already established its sell price in the NZ Market. These surely would be therefore the entrepreneur discussed in this article.
New Zealand made products are generally of a good quality and like all things you get what you pay for so if you pay a little more it will generally be worth it and the best thing is you are helping to keep people employed.
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Sometimes the Greens are just plain blind. It’s tempting to say STUPID, but mabybe it’s just tunnel vision. If you stuck to sensible policies designed to save the planet, kept out of socialism and doctrinal knee jerk policies you’d double your representation in Parliament.
From http://mywitsend.co.nz/editorial/173
“We can put quality meat on a consumer’s table 12,000 miles away at a lower price and with a lower carbon footprint than they can. If we wish to continue to do that then we need to retain their good will.
We won’t do that by being parochial.
If you want to do something constructive, stop buying mountains of plastic junk from the $2 shop. Don’t worry so much about where it comes from, rather whether or not you need to buy it at all.”
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but greenfly your question to icebaby was hardly posed innocently eh?
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@mistywindow – your suggestion that we ‘plain blind’ Greens ’stop buying mountains of plastic junk at the $2 shop’ is inspirational! How is it we didn’t think of that before???
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LOL I reckon! Talk about preaching to the converted.
Thanks Kitsha, I was confused about those too, and didn’t realise the kiwi triangle logo had been around for so long.
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Kitsha wrote:
“This article assumes that NZ Manufacturers earn a huge profit from the products they produce. Sadly this is often not the case. Many manufacturers struggle to keep their manufacture in New Zealand due to high wage and compliance costs.
It is interesting to note that our manufacturers who produce their products offshore for a cheaper rate very rarely reduce their product pricing as they have already established its sell price in the NZ Market. These surely would be therefore the entrepreneur discussed in this article.
New Zealand made products are generally of a good quality and like all things you get what you pay for so if you pay a little more it will generally be worth it and the best thing is you are helping to keep people employed.”
I do not assume that manufacturers earn a huge profit and I am not hostile to New Zealand manufacturing. I simply assert that there is no good basis to assume that if one chooses to subsidize manufacturing by “buying New Zealand made”, then goods will continue to be manufactured in New Zealand. Manufacturers tend to behave rationally, and what is rational is dictated by the socio-economic environment (the “free market” of global capitalism) rather than by the programmes of political parties which happen to believe in economic nationalism
For many decades New Zealanders bought good quality New Zealand made home appliances from Fisher and Paykel. Then came the “free market reforms” which caused F&P to progressively move most of its manufacturing to Mexico and Thailand. Some F&P refrigerators are still manufactured in New Zealand, but by buying New Zealand made refrigerators you will do nothing to keep the New Zealand plants operating. You will simply help to provide F&P with the necessary capital to move those last remaining operations off-shore. And F&P will then sell product cheaply manufactured in Thailand for the same prices as product more expensively manufactured in New Zealand, for just as long as it can.
The fact of the matter is that the New Zealand state has made the decision to allow the rule of global capital to operate within the scope of its sovereign jurisdiction. That has serious socio-economic consequences, such as the development of gross social inequality, which can not be arrested or reversed by the expedient of “buying New Zealand made”. Even if every single refrigerator being bought in New Zealand was also built in New Zealand, and even if those refrigerators were being built at a profit, it would still make sense to shift the manufacturing of refrigerators to the lowest cost producer (i.e. Thailand, Vietnam, or China) under the existing economic paradigm.
So you will not be able to “keep people employed” by “buying New Zealand made”. It just won’t work.
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