by Catherine Delahunty
Yesterday was World Disability Day, and last night the inaugural Attitude Awards ceremony was held at Sky City. The TVNZ programme “Attitude” that celebrates the achievements of people living with impairments created the “Attitude Awards” which were sponsored by a range of businesses and ACC. One in five people in Aotearoa live with an impairment, that is at least one person in everyone’s extended family. Last night, awards were given for contributions to disability action from community, arts, sports, and employer practice. The gold award was won by Suzanne Cowan for her fantastic work in dance and choreography on disability issues.
As the new Disability Spokesperson for the Greens I want to celebrate and acknowledge the achievements of one of the most marginalised and ‘invisibilised’ sectors of our community. The biggest barrier to justice for people with impairments is able-bodied attitudes and it is shameful that the programme called “Attitude” is shown early on Sunday morning when the people who most need to watch it are less likely to see it.
The New Zealand Disability Strategy has clearly identified the attitudes of able-bodied people as the biggest impediment to meeting the human rights of people living with impairments. The Awards event last night is a great start in naming the heroic efforts of many individuals and groups to break stereotypes and recognise the huge contribution that people with impairments are making to our community, youth, economic, artistic and sporting life. However it might be good to add another award category, that of “Most Constructive Troublemaker”.
The TABS (temporarily able bodied) is a group that I belong to at the moment. We think of ourselves as pretty good people, and no we don’t discriminate against anyone except maybe by accident. We don’t recognise our attitudes as a barrier to basic justice in the streets, the workplaces and our homes. The “Constructive Troublemaker Award” could be given to anyone who can specifically challenge us TABS on our ignorance and privileges at a systems level.
We are often in deep denial that we even have an attitude problem, some of our best friends have disabilities but we don’t realise we might be one of them.
Its not a simple matter helping us to change, as conventionally beautiful bodies and tidy minds are promoted as absolute ideals and bring many rewards.
However the Greens want to be part of the structural attitude shift. It is look in the mirror time for the TABs everywhere, from Parliament to the supermarket carpark. Let’s work on some worthwhile attitudes and real resources for implementing the NZ Disability Strategy and the articles of United Nations Declaration on the Rights of People with Disabilities.
And congratulations to all the very first Attitude Awards winners!
Published in Economy, Work, & Welfare | Society & Culture by Catherine Delahunty on Thu, December 4th, 2008
Tags: ACC, attitude, disability, suzanne cowan, TABS, TVNZ
More posts by Catherine Delahunty | more about Catherine Delahunty
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
It is so frustrating that I have money stolen from me every week to pay the author of this post a salary she could not ever hope to make in the private sector.
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Hi
Could you provide a link for “The New Zealand Disability Strategy ” please.
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Cheers Catherine. Great first post on frogblog.
As for you, big bro, your comment is just mean-spirited. Catherine is someone I know very well, and she has all the skills to command a very high salary in the private sector if she were to chose to.
The fact that she has not utilised those skills for her personal aggrandisement, but has instead applied them over the years to supporting communities in struggles against environmental and economic exploitation (for example through Coromandel Watchdog and Tairawhiti Beneficiary Advocacy Trust) and community-based education (through the Kotare Trust) is a credit to her.
Given you attitude towards Catherine, BB, I’d be interested in what you have to say about another new Green MP, Kevin Hague, abandoning his rather generous salary as Chief Executive of a District Health Board for the much more parsimonious stipend of a backbench MP!
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Dave S: try here.
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Toad
Would that be the much derided West Coast DHB Mr Hauge was the CEO of?, if so I hardly think that is something to be boasting about.
As you well know Toad my “attitude” toward Delehunty is more to do with her sexist and outdated attitudes.
I also have a serious reservations about your claim that she has the “skills to command a very high salary in the private sector”, if that were the case then why has she not taken up one of these highly paid positions and used the money to further her sexist and outdated causes?
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“As you well know Toad my “attitude” toward Delehunty is more to do with her sexist and outdated attitudes.”
It’s more to do with your sexist and out-dated attitude Bro.
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# big bro Says:
December 4th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
> It is so frustrating that I have money stolen from me every week to pay the author of this post a salary she could not ever hope to make in the private sector.
poor Big Bro was desperate to criticise Catherine Delahunty, but couldn’t think of anything intelligent to say about her post
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Her “post” is pure left wing crap if you must know Kahikatea, the only saving grace about this Shelia being in the house is that she will have nothing to do with the polices of the government.
And thank god for that!
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Did everyone get that statistic? That’s one in FIVE. That’s a lot of people, and a lot of work to be done to give them the opportunities us TABs have.
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Congratulations to big bro !
You win the SPECIAL AWARD for SEXIST BIGOT OF THE YEAR !
In addition to your consistent diatribe about “stealing your money”,
especially noteworthy is your inclusion of words like “Shelia” … evocative of a past age when men were MEN (and women knew their place).
Highjacking a thread about people who really need and deserve our attention was a great touch as well!
Even by your own inimitable standards,
I have to admit that YOU EXCEL YOURSELF big bro!
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… and genuine Congratulations to Catherine !
I LOVE the “temporarily able bodied” concept … (forcing us all towards “inclusive thinking”.)
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What is the source for the one in five claim? That means there should be twenty disabled people in my extended family. There are none unless we count asthma, angina, hip replacements, dementia and one special needs child. Each of them would be deeply offended if anybody called them disabled.
If there is going to be an Attitude Hall of Fame then I nominate Bruce Lesley McLaren to be in the inaugural inductees, along with Graeme Condon and Neroli Fairhall.
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“The New Zealand Disability Strategy has clearly identified the attitudes of able-bodied people as the biggest impediment to meeting the human rights of people living with impairments. ”
This post assumes a case having been made (no examples) and rolls in with hyperbole and finger wagging.
Everyone admires Steven Hawkings or the blind lawyer but when they see some poor bucktoothed “vegetable” dribbling from his wheel chair they just think (perhaps) “shouldn’t have been born” and look away (and they might be right).
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The “Greens” are disabled by having too many left feet.
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“temporarily able bodied”
Rolls eyes…
Is there an “always hard bodied” club? If so, I’m joining, baby!
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eredwen
“(forcing us all towards “inclusive thinking”.)
Ahh, the real agenda of the Greens is exposed at last, you guys really like the idea of “forcing” people don’t you.
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“The Attitude Awards, a fantastic new initiative dedicated to honour the outstanding achievements of New Zealanders living with disabilities is launching in December. ”
Catherine Delahunty seems to have spun this as being about our (negative) attitude to the impairment whereas it is about their positive response to their circumstances. I smell an ambitious left- winger using the issue as a political foot ball; pushing the point too far just creates a backlash.
“Barriers” here:
http://www.odi.govt.nz/publications/nzds/barriers.html
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Ice Baby
Born helpless and definitely not able bodied.
Died, sometime later. Not able bodied at time of death either.
( Maybe up to a few moments from the time of death )
You can’t belong to that club. No human being can. Imagining that this is possible is one of the more egregious errors of the young and right-wing.
respectfully
BJ
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BJ
Is having no sense of humour one of the more egregious errors of the left wing, old or otherwise?
I don’t need to indulge in the silliness of redefining myself as someone in a waiting to be disabled in order to celebrate, support and understand those less able.
I did manage to get all the way through “A Brief History Of Time”, for example….
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Disabled typist, for starters:
“I don’t need to indulge in the silliness of redefining myself as someone waiting to be disabled in order to celebrate, support and understand those less able.”
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If there was less SB, CD and KH the Greens may have had more sway over this:
English throws cold water on Treasury’s economic advice
New Zealand Herald, New Zealand – 5 hours ago
Its recipe for boosting productivity included a capital gains tax on property to encourage people to invest in other areas such as savings. …
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10546643
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(I forgot KL)
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Fair Cop Icebaby… I usually don’t pay attention to sexually oriented stuff here and so I did leave the humorous nature of your post lying on the table. It isn’t that I don’t have one…. but I wasn’t using it then
respectfully
BJ
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Well I always suspected English was a shill for the “property-investor class”.
respectfully
BJ
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Kevyn,
Like you I’m interested in where they got the 1 in 5 from.
Actually I think it is way higher than that.
Reason is that what level of disablity included in the “survey” is not quantified.
Therefore, myself as a mature gentlemen with eye sight not the best, has a disability (I wear glasses). Similarly we have a tradesman in our factory who is dyslexic (sp?).
So technically we are both “not ablebodied”. Are we included in the 1 in 5? If so I would suggest that ALL people are somehow “not ablebodied”.
I would say I’m able bodied (well as able as 60 years of hard living allows) and be included in the 5 column. As would the dyslexic tradesman.
But one would need to see a list of the qualifying “not able bodied” disabilities to get an accurate ratio.
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I notice 15 objectives
http://www.odi.govt.nz/publications/nzds/index.html
I don’t see
Objective 16: Promote participation of disabled Asian peoples
or
Objective 17: Promote participation of disabled Indian peoples
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“property-investor class”.
Otherwise known as the “temporarily accommodated”….
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Found the 1 in 5 reference here
http://www.odi.govt.nz/documents/nzds/recommended-content-nzds.pdf
page 5
reading throught the web site of the ODI is an exercise in political correctness in the extreme. And no quantification of where the 1 in 5 figure is derived from. Thin air to make the ODI feel important and get funding?
And as a followup on JH point. These racist statements are in the Vision and Objectives
Nothing about other cultures. Why are they singled out for “special” status?
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Gerrit – because we live on Pacific islands where Maori are first people?
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>>Maori are first people
So those who have ancestors who were first are better/more deserving of help?
I’m calling “temporarily racist”……
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no, icebaby, jh asked why they have ‘special status’. They are significantly different from, say, a Chinese person recently arrived in NZ.
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>>They are significantly different from, say, a Chinese person
Do they have more legs?
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Eye see, it’s cos their jeans are different.
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Icebaby – scene at a country hall where the community is celebrating 100 years of settlement – all of the 5th generation families have assembled, the doors are about to close as there is only room for one more person. Two cars pull up. Out steps the great grandaughter of the founder of the community. From the other car, a American tourist who happened to see the lights on in the hall as he was passing through and is curious to watch the proceedings. Who gets to fill the last seat? Special status.
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There is plenty of room in the hall for everyone, it just that some people believe they’re “temporarily entitled”…..
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“Disability is the process which happens when one group of people create barriers designing a world only for their way of living, taking into account of the impairments people have”.
Who writes this garbage? People are paid to do this?
I look forward to FrogBlog being published in every language, so as not to disable the “English impaired”….
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greenfly, How much did you charge the yank for his “special status”? Enough to build the proposed Centennial school swimming pool? Take a well deserved pat on the back and maybe we’ll elect you sovereign in place of Prince Charles whose only claim to fame is he’s the great grandaughter of the founder of the community.
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are the girl and the tourist equally deserving of a seat?
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Kevyn – did you use the ‘language randomizer’ to write your comment? Truely opaque, well done!
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>>are the girl and the tourist equally deserving of a seat?
If they’re both invited – sure.
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‘promote participation’ is not the same as ‘deny participation’. What irks you about promoting participation? Perhaps there is an issue with participation rates amongst Pacific Islanders and Maori. A solution might be to promote participation, do you think?
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>>Perhaps there is an issue with participation rates amongst Pacific Islanders and Maori.
Perhaps, but I think it’s more likely the PC brigade inserting Maori clauses into everything, so as to appear culturally right-on.
The flip-side is that it makes other races feel less important, as they aren’t specified directly.
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greenfly,
Your empahsis on the meaning of “promote participation” is a red herring on your part.
What is up is the racist configuration of the “Vision and Objectives” statement.
Surely is should read
Promote participation of ALL disabled New Zealanders.
What is with the special mention of seperate racial groups? First or last, surely it is like justice, equal for All?
Or are some more equal than others?
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>>Or are some more equal than others?
Perhaps we’re just “temporarily equal”……
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suppose, IB G and K, the three of you spacemen arrive on a planet populated by sentient beings – you’re the first earthlings to do so. Do you immediately enjoy all of the rights and privileges of the natives?
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do peoples from different places/races view disability in the same way? If not (clue – they don’t) then are differing approaches to their treatment/involvement appropriate? (Yes).
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greenfly,
Are you saying that a blind New Zealander with Indian roots (racial type) is viewed differently than say a blind Maori, who will inturn be viewed differently to a blind Pacific Islander?
Because what you just said does not make sense.
Nor does your spacemen anology.
We are talking about New Zealanders, who may have different racial backgrounds and have arrived here anytime after the Moriori.
Must be friday as you are not coherent.
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“temporarily coherent”
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gerrit – apologies for incoherence. Please ignore the space analogy.
(I did think it was insensitive of you to ask that we ‘view’ blind people! – luckily, none will see what you wrote
No, I don’t say these folk should be viewed differently, I say they view things differently and that needs to be taken into account in order to service their needs most effectively. One size doesn’t fit all.
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Is your Moriori comment a joke btw?
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greenfly,
That different people (irrespective of racial origin) have different needs is understood and acknowledged.
However the ODI has specifically placed two racial groups above any other. Do you think this is right?
And if you want to go on time frames with the Maori being first. I would respectfully suggest pakah, chinese, indians and many others were here well before the great Pacific Islander immigration of the 1960.
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IceBaby says:
“Perhaps, but I think it’s more likely the PC brigade inserting Maori clauses into everything, so as to appear culturally right-on.”
“The flip-side is that it makes other races feel less important, as they aren’t specified directly.”
…………….
I reply:
IceBaby you really should catch up!
Aotearoa New Zealand, because of our history, and Te Tiriti o Waitangi now has two official languages: Maori and English.
(No problem there, as some countries have three … Switzerland for example.) Citizens are entitled to speak in their chosen official language and can expect to be understood by their fellow citizens.
Bilingual Maori are generally considerate enough to speak in English.
Nowadays, many Pakeha at least try to give some token respect to Maori by using a few words, and some of us are making sure that our next generation is bilingual from early childhood (through Kohangareo etc).
This has great advantage for our children. At the very young age when the brain is receptive to learning language, bi or tri lingual families find that their kids are not only set up for life in the languages they learn at that time, but that they also have a continuing ability to pick up and speak more languages easily.
No bad “gift” to give your kids in this multilingual world of ours!
If you are not convinced, (or are a racist?) ask the Scandinavians.
Many of them speak their native tongue (Norwegian for example) and are also fluent in English, German and French just for starters! They didn’t leave the learning of these languages until secondary school (as AotearoaNZ, by following the monolingual Brits used to do) but started out in at least two languages “at their mother’s knee.”
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eredwen,
New Zealand has three official languages. Sign language is an official one.
Irrespective of how many languages we speak (and I speak 3).
ODI in their “Vision and Objectives” has specifically placed two racial groups above any other.
Do you think this is right?
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Gerrit
The ODI calls for a focus on the second and third largest ‘user groups’ (I’m guessing). They consider that they will benefit from encouragement to participate. Why does this seemingly sensible strategy disturb you? Should it have been the 4th, 5th and 6th as well? Why have any special treatment for ‘disabled’ people at all. We are all equal, after all.
You ‘suggest’ that mariners from further afield than our own ocean arrived here before the local sailors? Odd.
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eredwen
“If you are not convinced, (or are a racist?)”
Give us a break!, it is simply ridiculous to label all those who have no wish to speak Maori as racist, it shows a lack of depth to your argument.
If anybody WANTS to learn Maori then good for them, personally I would rather my kids learned a second language that might give them an advantage in later life.
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greenfly
Does not make sense.
What I think you are saying is that Samoans, Fijians, Tongans, etc. arrived here before the pakeha, chinese,, indians, etc. Not sure if that is true.
Surely ALL new Zealanders would benefit from participating. Why single out two specific racial groups?
Are their needs greater? Or is it a sop to the PC brigade?
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big bro – it’ll no doubt irk you to discover that you have already learned and use Maori language (e ruarua nga kupu e hoa)
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greenfly
It will no doubt irk you that should that indeed be the case then I would have no problem with it, I am yet to be convinced but no doubt you are about to tell me.
As an aside, it really must “irk” you that those of us who do not see the value in learning Maori do not fall neatly into your racist stereotype.
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Gerrit – again you are right, my ‘mariners’ piece was irrelevent! I’m jumping to conclusions and will sign off for a rest (I’ve had a demanding week – wish I could share the details).
“Are their needs greater?” Their needs will be, as you describe, different and that might involve a greater need for encouragement to participate.
Yes, it is likely that all would benefit from participation (probably) but there could well be a barrier to participation being experienced by the two groups described, as there has been with the cervical smear programme. True or not? Do you find those advertisements encouraging Maori and Pacific Islander women to participate, racist?
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greenfly,
You still havent answered the question, but I guess you dont have any problem with racism in our government departments.
Have a good weekend.
I will be awile waiting far a big job to finish running on the CNC machine so look forward to discussing this further with anyone that wants to.
Saturday and Sunday it is sailing time. Yippee.
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Big Bro – no, I’m not concerned that you don’t want to learn Maori, though you have demonstrably begin to move along that path. So that I don’t run too true to type I’ll not labour the point and point out to you where that occured
(but it’s not difficult to find e hoa)
I’d like to challenge you to find some English speaking New Zealander who doesn’t have a couple of Moari arrows in his language quiver!
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Gerrit – coincidentally, I sail also and amazingly, it’ll be the weekend down here as well!
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Greenfly,
The ovious answer would be no you do not enjoy any of the same rights or privledges unless you are so advanced that you three people could fend off the entire peoples of the planet and as such protect your supposed rights by removing their freedoms. Note, that that has nothing to do with the arrival but with the ability to muster force; funny that.
Cathrine,
.
If you want to be accurate; every single human alive today has an impairment as no human is naturally the best at everything. Some people have a natural tendancy for more fast-twitch muscle and as such are far better at sprinting than others, those that do not have a disability compared to those with the fast twitch, but they may exceed in slow-twitch so they are better at marathons
The point is that disability in our culture is defined in relation to the norm and as such, assuming a standard deiviation, there will alway be a certain percentage of the population disabled depending on the trivial cut of point that is set.
If you select any random individual off the street and administer a battery of psychological and physical tests every individual you test will satisfy the criteria of atleast two psychological disorders and have many areas of impaired physical performance.
I have a massive number of things which are considered to be disabilities, some physical, some psychological, and alot neural. And yet if my acheivements were considered grand in mind of those i would hit the person over the head and state that clearly they are mentally disabled, if i am to have my acheivements measured i would ahve them measured against the norm or atleast against the feild in which the acheivements take place; if i was a nobel physics laurete i wouldint want to be compared to joe blogs, but to hawkings. Besides, depending on how you define mental retardation, compared to my IQ (which has maxed out all the tests ive taken) well over 4/5 of the population is mentally retarded; disability is all about perspective.
Greenfly,
I understand that if a primary class has a deaf student they are all taught to sign? this should be extended, in my opinion, to all primary school students. What is the point of primary school anyway? i never quite got the point of spending six years doing buggar all, but then again my punctuation hasint really improoved since about year three 
In my view children should be taught english, maori, spanish, and sign in primary, alongside math and sport that is
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>>Aotearoa New Zealand,
I do not live in a place called Aotearoa New Zealand. I live in New Zealand, or Aotearoa (which is a nice sounding name), but “Aotearoa New Zealand” just sounds like you’re trying to hard.
>>Maori and English.
Maori and sign language, actually. English isn’t an official language.
>>Nowadays, many Pakeha at least try to give some token respect to Maori by using a few words, and some of us are making sure that our next generation is bilingual from early childhood (through Kohangareo etc).
My two nephews are Maori, and I’m a god-parent to one. Spent the Saturday before last on the Marae, signing Maori songs. Had a great time.
But I’m not going to pretend I’m something I’m not. I’d rather slip in words of my own heritage, which is Italian and Scotland.
>>No bad “gift” to give your kids in this multilingual world of ours!
Where did I argue otherwise?
>>If you are not convinced, (or are a racist?) ask the Scandinavians.
If I’m a racist, I should ask the Scandinavians what? I used to work with a few people from Denmark, and they are great drinking mates, even if they do place a little too much emphasis on herring.
Buona sera, me laddie….
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Icebaby,
the scandinavians are taught several languages from kindergarten onwards, some of which continue throughout their secondary school years, and i beleive through their gymnasium years too.
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I know that. I have friends who are from Denmark. Where have I said that learning other languages is a bad thing?
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Spot on Gerrit!
In my haste I did overlook our third Official Language, (and should not have as I have grew up, and still live, in Sumner as did my kids, and thus have always had a close relationship with Van Asch College (formerly called “The School for the Deaf”.)
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sapient – why not set up your own primary school! With your derring-do attitude, the little students would excel! The 3 or 4 primary schools I’ve visited in the past 2 weeks are opposite to the one of your past, I think. The tiny students there were doing the opposite of ‘bugger all’ and were going like the clappers, learning with attitude! Times have changed, in my experience at least. You’d be taken-aback by the level and pace of skill and knowledge aquisition at these schools.
I thought your ‘space colonist’ response was superb.
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Greenfly,
.
. That said, it could just be that the rate of learning was insufficent for me but not for the other students, though in addition to my punctuation i never bothered to learn my timetables, still dont know them, my ADD has never really been kind when it comes to rote learning 
Time does change much, for good or for bad. When i first started school about half the teachers were male (all of which taught the higher primary school years unsurprisingly), by the time i reached those years the only male staff member was the caretaker, and im pretty sure he was a voulenteer, lol; maybe that lack of a male role model explains my lack of masculinity, be that good or bad
To be fair I may have just fallen into a bad time slot, i think i started just after the new speaker became minister of education
As for me opening a primary school; I would probally get sick of them after a day and have a cliff built in the school grounds so i could teach them to imitate lemmings, and the fact that most teachers go through uni with a C’s get degrees attitude would indicate i would probally teach them to do much the same. That said, i prefer to work on the macro level than the micro, that and i admit my ineptitude when it comes to the administrative complexities of the school system.
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sapient – ah, the Lockwood Years! Macro level work .v. grassroots – which is the most effective? Nandor would have much to say about this, were he not saying nothing about anything.
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eredwen
I am sure that you will be pleased to know that we were neighbours for about five years, I lived opposite Van Asch.
Just think, we could have been buddies!
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I had a look at the Office for Disability Affairs and began to think I was ‘Microsoft impaired’, but I have a corrective device – OpenOffice – that almost completely eliminates the impairment. I cannot participate in some activities considered normal – constantly scanning for viruses, getting malware infections etc – but I don’t perceive these as limitations resulting from my long term condition – not being silly enough to use Windows.
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Greenfly, Did I use the ‘language randomizer’ to write my comment? I used my brain which, like yours, is a natural ‘language randomizer’. If you found it truly opaque then that simply reveals how effective your thought filters have become. Which may also explain why G, BB & K find your ‘self-evident’ arguments equally opaque.
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Sapient Says:
December 5th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
> The point is that disability in our culture is defined in relation to the norm and as such, assuming a standard deiviation, there will alway be a certain percentage of the population disabled depending on the trivial cut of point that is set.
that’s why Catherine uses the definition of the person’s condition being an ‘impairment’, and the disability being due to the combination of the impairment and the surrounding society or infrastructure clashing with the impairment.
The fact that I cannot sing in tune is thus not an impairment, because it is not difficult to get by in New Zealand society without being able to sing in tune. However, the fact that I require a toilet that fits the definition of a disabled accessible toilet is a disability, in that it prevents me from taking employment in a workplace where there isn’t one nearby.
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IceBaby Says:
December 5th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
>> I do not live in a place called Aotearoa New Zealand. I live in New Zealand, or Aotearoa (which is a nice sounding name), but “Aotearoa New Zealand” just sounds like you’re trying to hard.
I agree. That name always makes me think of Papua New Guinea. I’d much rather have one or the other than both.
>> My two nephews are Maori, and I’m a god-parent to one. Spent the Saturday before last on the Marae, signing Maori songs.
Signing Maori songs seems a little try-hard too. Singing Maori songs or signing English ones sounds more likely to be sincere.
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True kevyn – that’s a very interesting comment. I’ll read your post again in that light.
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Kevyn wrote:
greenfly, How much did you charge the yank for his “special status”? Enough to build the proposed Centennial school swimming pool? Take a well deserved pat on the back and maybe we’ll elect you sovereign in place of Prince Charles whose only claim to fame is he’s the great grandaughter of the founder of the community.
I’m confounded Kevyn. Is Prince Charles anyones great grandaughter? I never knew! The girl in my feeble example should lose the opportunity to a paying outsider? The community should eschew tradition for cash?
Will you do me the great favour of explaining (I’m happy to conceed that I’m dim)
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tradition seems to have a very dual nature in this party, both campeigned strongly against as a very weak arguement to support a regeime not agreed with and campeigned for as a strong and defining point with all the legitimacy in the world. odd, though consistent with much other, similar, premise’s
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Well I was bein flippant in regards to Charles who is, of course, the great (or possibly great geat) grandson of Victoria, with whom some of the maori chiefs entered into Te Tiriti. There is the serious undertone of whether someone is important to a community simply because of something an ancestor did in that community.
As for your other two questions, there are as many good reasons to answers yes as to answer no. Especially if the great granddaughter is a woman who fled the community as soon as she was old enough to, or whose mother or grandmother did. It all depends on what’s in the mind of the person reading what you wrote and what I wrote.
Then of course there is the compromise solution in which the bloke who is only in the hall because his wife dragged him along gives up his unwanted seat so that girl gets her moment in the spotlight and the community gets it’s Centennial school swimming pool.
I introduced a second special status to balance the one you provided because in reality that’s the conundrum that faces every vague reference to Treaty obligations in statutes and vision statements.
Good to hear that you are dim, rather than obstinant. Since Mensa folk are pretty dim when it comes to practical thinking you’re probably smarter than most folk by knowing what you’re dim at.
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Kevyn – of course, your meaning is blindingly obvious now that you’ve expanded on your original post! How could I not have seen it the first time??
Dim! Foreshore. I blame my thought filters.
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Aotearoa has had more Pakeha walking on its surface (and buried beneath) than Moari given out present population levels. Just thought I’d mention it.
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And the moon more American than any other! Guess it’s theirs!
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>>Signing Maori songs seems a little try-hard too. Singing Maori songs or signing English ones sounds more likely to be sincere.
I had no choice. The hymns were in Maori, and I like to sing.
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# greenfly Says:
December 6th, 2008 at 9:09 am
And the moon more American than any other! Guess it’s theirs!
………………….
The Americans are the Moon Tangata Whenua.
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jh – it’s about occupancy, not discovery. You have to keep the homefires burning to claim manawhenua – ahi kaa. Had the Americans stayed put…
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We’ll I guess manwhenua applies to Pakeha then.
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greenfly,
. If it were america and/or china however, they may not like it, but they would have to accept it asthey hold the ballance of power. Being tangata whenua should accord one no more rights or privledges than any other, only force can and should do that; “might makes right” when used against others/outsiders/those whom threaten ones-self is the only universally accepted ethic, far more sacricanct than “thou shalt not murder” and “thou shall not participate in relationships of an incestous nature”. lol.
somehow i doubt that the world would accept that if new zealand were to set up base on the moon and mars that it automatically belongs to them
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Why does every discussion on Frogblog always end in a Maori vs Pakeha.
I think frog blog has its own godwin law but ours involves Maori/Pakeha instead of Nazi’s.
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jh – unless someone already had that status
Sapient – hmmm… ahi kaa ‘right of use by demonstrated occupancy’ (my clumsy definition) was kept vital by shared agreement, regulation and ongoing hui. It prevented internal forceful aquisition and helped to repell invasion from outside, (provided it was repellable). It also required real contact with the resources (you had to go there and inhabit all of your ‘territories’ on a regular basis. Your ‘universally accepted ethic’ is the same one Arthur of Round Table fame wrestled with and drew conclusions from. ‘He’ didn’t capitulate to its charm. Do you?
btw – Gerry Brownlee’s ‘bolt from the blue’ comes from a Dolt from the Blue (goodbye Buy New Zealand Made)
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turnip – it’s not Maori .v. Pakeha is it? I thought we were sifting and re-weighing concepts of rights and responsibilities.
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Greenfly,
I have little knowledge of the meaning of ‘ahi kaa’, but by my understanding it never applied before quite some time after pakeha invasion, external forces tend to create an internal cohessive force.
While I do not view rule by force as a great thing it is very much the rule of this world and is infact prehaps the only form which can exist, i cetainly cannot comprehend a system, short of a fools utopia, society can exist in its absence. Force does not neccacarily mean a punch in the face, it is much like money and can be traded, created, and manipulated through alliances and the like, even democracies rule by force.
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Hard to argue with that Sapient (sure puts the Nat/Act win into perspective) Ghandi, Mandela, Te Whiti, all misguided and wrong?
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Author: greenfly
Comment:
jh – unless someone already had that status
………..
“has that status” implies that know one else can have it, presumably your reason is that Moari have kept the homefires burning longer. Pakeha have kept more home fires burning for shorter time but (nevertheless) a significant period.
“Status” is nothing until it is recognised by those affected. Historically we recognise Moari as being here before us but status depends on ones own system of appreciation of worthiness. We don’t mind the Queen being the Queen because it doesn’t get in our way and its fun but giving Moari a greater status gets in our way.
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jh – perhaps immigrants should recognise and respect the systems that have already been established in a ‘new country’? If busting in and lighting up your fire doesn’t fit with the existing laws, perhaps incomers should taihoa and, like, an incoming Minister, keep mum til they know the lie of the land. Sapient might argue that this is all in vain and, like Ngati Matenga who took the Chathams at the expense of Moriori, knocking heads and claiming all, might is right and winner takes all.
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Man, not sure why I keep reading this rubbish, I’ve caught the same disease as the rest of you.
As a bald, gap toothed ugly fella with one deaf ear maybe I count more than once as disabled. Thats a bit of a shocker though, cause otherwise I’m pretty fit and have a reasonably competent mind. Though I guess if society can’t get past my obvious impairments then its not my fault, I don’t have anything to prove to them. Its their prejudice thats cramping my style not my tendency to laze about, surf the net and drink too much.
Whatever. 1 in 5 people. Are you for real? Thats worse than those old stats you used to hear of 1 in 10 people being gay. Created by people with vested interests trying to drum up business for their bureaucracy.
We need as many New Zealanders as possible measuring themselves against the most competent and creative people in the country and the world in their chosen careers (eg Stephen Hawking). Lets not lower our yardstick and give excuses to all the slackers out there like me…..do you think Stephen Hawking ever wakes up and thinks, “man I’ve done really well for a person with a horrible disease”…no way!!
Define people by their strengths not their impairments. TABS is a horribly negative concept, sure we are all slowly dying, but theres no need to focus on that. Doesn’t the green party focus on the living world into the post us future?
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Greenfly:
“If busting in and lighting up your fire doesn’t fit with the existing laws, perhaps incomers should taihoa and, like, an incoming Minister, keep mum til they know the lie of the land.”
and then there are the universal laws of common sense (a rare quality at Green HQ)..
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JamieS Says:
December 6th, 2008 at 12:08 pm
Man, not sure why I keep reading this rubbish, I’ve caught the same disease as the rest of you.
……………
It’s like Walking With Dinasours: can’t wait to see what Kevin Hague has to say.
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@JamieS-
Perhaps it is just me, but that is what my understanding of this event was. After reading the blog, I was under the impression that the point of such an event was to promote disabled people being judged based on their merits as opposed to being discriminated against.
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No eff that greenspeck! Immigrants should be taken in and loved for their diversity – don’t go all Ozzzie on us!!!!!
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“My favourite article of NewScientist’s series is Herman Daly’s. The father of modern ecological economics lashes out at the way economists ignore the source of inputs to production and the capacity of the waste sinks that we have.”
http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2008/12/05/a-world-without-growth/#comments
The present membership of the Green Party only stymies broad support.
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What’s happening re Agenda? I remember when they got rid of Brian Priestly and Paul Holmes became the gold standard. Will Paul Henry become the gold standard? Swap the blond Bimbo for Kim Hill I say.
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like rust, jh never sleeps. Erode, undermine, corrode…
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progress
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Just to clarify, the “rubbish” I was referring to was the discussion not the blog itself. Wouldn’t you stirrers be better off over on a right wing blog hammering out and feeding into positive policy development now that you have power?
Re the blog itself my main point is that I can’t see the point in labelling 1 in 5 people as “impaired”. I resent the description.
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Each to their own best ability – or disabilty; have yet to meet a ‘useless’ human bean; loads and loads of those whose talents and abilities remain kinetic, for want of recognition, value, focus and utilization. Wot a waste eh kiwi?
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@JamieS-
In which case I misread your comment and for that I apologize.
# greenfly Says:
December 7th, 2008 at 10:21 am
like rust, jh never sleeps. Erode, undermine, corrode…
# jh Says:
December 7th, 2008 at 10:24 am
progress
I laughed at the irony of the response.
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the irony –
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@greenfly-
Lol when I read their response it seems to strike a nice similarity to crimes against humanity which have commonly been performed in the name of ‘progress’.
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seemed*
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Reddeath, greenfly,
Call it creative criticism, just as iron oxidising teaches us to use substances which, like aluminum, oxidise in such a way that protects it from further erosion or better yet teaches us to use substances which dont corrode at all; the criticism which I and others make should help the party to formulate policy that accually has a possibility of working and is accually defendable.
That is to say, our criticism should help alot more than the blind ideological adherance of certain members/new MP’s
Anyway, as a last comment on the subject of disabilities; Natural Selection.
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“Natural Selection.”
Is/ought divide
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Sapient – let it rust, I say! Value the transient, don’t forever strive for permanence. Iron oxide is a beautiful thing and a poignant reminder of the impermanence of things.
Blind ideological adherence – a cross-party phenomenon do you think?
Natural Selection – don’t be silly! That function is long gone. We’re in the driver’s seat now!
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Great Mileage Catherine! 4 days – maybe an invalids ‘corner’ is called for since we being droll – a Cripples Column if you will. Not an Ad but M Scott Peck has a great book on this issue called ‘Denial of the Soul’ – a five star effort at giving rare and valuable insight…
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Frog – give us something to get our teeth into – please!
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More humour – No, you can’t buy rust, good health or Visby’s
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Greenfly,
Indeed, oxidisation does have its places and, as with certain sculptures, can add to character; i mearly prefer that the oxidisation, as with copper, zinc, and aluminum serves to protect as well rather than, like in iron, leading to continual deteroration and eventual failure of the structure.
Again, blind ideological adherance is indeed a cross-party phenomenon, which, atleast in my view, is to the detriment of the political process and the nation. Which is why i tend to take such a criticism-heavy role in the party which i feel is most on track, atleast to where i beleive we need to go.
The purpose of my Natural Selection comment was to emphasise that in nature it is not the one most addaptive to change with their impediments taken into account that best survives and proliferates but rather the most adaptive to change overall. Being retarded and learning from a chemistry teacher the composistion of water may be the same, in terms of ability, as a genius working out how to unify all four forces, but it wont earn you the nobel prize, nor should it.
If you think we are in the drivers seat you are terribly wrong, we are still just as subject to the same laws of evolution as ever before, the difference is that our social structure and intelligence mearly allow us to exert influence over other species, and adapt to change, exponentially more than those from which we evolved. So long as we are subject to the laws of physics we will still be subject to Natural Selection, atleast as a species and as groups.
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Mark,
Though i have never met a human bean, may i suggest that so long as there is a single life form in existance nothing, even the most useless of human beings, is truley useless; even if that use is as dog chow.
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Sapient Says:
December 7th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
> If you think we are in the drivers seat you are terribly wrong, we are still just as subject to the same laws of evolution as ever before, the difference is that our social structure and intelligence mearly allow us to exert influence over other species, and adapt to change, exponentially more than those from which we evolved.
Indeed. Natural selection will happen anyway, but that does not mean that natural selection has any moral force that we should attempt to follow. Gravity will make things fall to the ground if I knock them off my desk, but that doesn’t mean I should go out of my way to knock things off my desk just because gravity will make them fall if I do.
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Yeah! considered that all life might be sacred; then I remembered mosquito’s – I happily confess to destroying any and all – even the one’s ain’t bited me yet…..natural selection only takes us so far; humans tend to be abberrant little critters.
My own dogs are real fussy and wouldn’t eat just anyone…
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>>Natural selection will happen anyway, but that does not mean that natural selection has any moral force that we should attempt to follow
That is what kiore1 meant by the is/ought divide, I guess: The Naturalistic Fallacy (Hume) you cannot derive an ‘ought’ (moral stance) from an ‘is’ (a natural state). Just because something occurs doesn’t mean to say it should occur. On the other hand, we do need to have some justification for our moral codes: ‘Nature’ (the subject of many of our science disciplines) may be at least as good as ‘the market’, the bible, the heavens (astrology) or our culture…… who knows?
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Kahikatea,
I made no mention nor insinuation of Natural Selection having a moral force, my observation was mearly that.
What i think ought to be is irrelivant, but all that motivates us, all that we are, and all that we ever will be is a product of the laws of physics and the influences which we so sumerise as natural selection.
We exist mearly because our form has been more useful than others in replication and continuation of our genetic structure.
If there can be any objective or rational basis for a moral code to guide humanity, and i do not postulate that there could be, then the continuation and proliferation of our lineage would be the logical basis; the path which most greatly ensures our survival and proliferation is the path that ought be taken. This does not neccacarily neccesitate activly promoting the production of those which we consider strong or disincentivising those we consider weak as such actions could or could not be beneficial and decisions should be made based on the perceived benefit to the proliferation of the species. If a action benefits us, it is good, even if it is genocide (though i can think of few cases where that could benefit us). if the action costs us then it is bad, even if it is supporting the old and retarded (which can be demonstratibly negative past and bellow certain points). My point being that just because an action seems right it may not be so in the greater view of things. we have a duty to proliferate, and since we are now a keystone species, that duty is even more great than previously
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Sapient – did you choose the phrase, ‘blind ideological adherence’ in because of the thread’s topic?
If the adherence weren’t ‘impaired, would you call it ‘loyalty’ and admire it? Do you regard loyalty highly? There are many green members who are not impaired by blindness but are nevertheless loyal to the ideology.
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‘in’ ought to be out
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Greenfly,
Not intentionally, that is the phrase i normally use; though how apt it is is not lost on me.
If the adherance were not impaired and the individual could indeed see that what they propose would not and could not work then yes i would call it loyalty, but i would also suggest that their mental functioning may be suffering from impairment. loyalty is not always, or even reguarly, a good thing, atleast not in my opinion. I would much rather that people attempt to think things through themselves than mearly take a posistion because it is consistant with the posistions others have taken whit whom they had sided in the past. If they do indeed think and question the course then by definition it is not loyalty but rationality if they see it as correct; and if they see it as wrong; stupidity.
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loyalty can carry a person through times of doubt, and is valid, I think, when those doubts are the result of a conscious and dishonest attack on some aspect of their beliefs by another ‘party’. Many green supporters may have felt a wavering of their support for the party when wave after wave of attack came in from the opponents of the section 59 repeal and laterly, the call for action on global warming.
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Greenfly,
But doubt is good, it is in questioning that we progress. Holding steadfast to a beleif without questioning it, no matter how valid it may seem, is an attribute of religion and works activly against science and the procurement of truley just outcomes.
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doubtless you are right, sapient.
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Loyalty to Ideals might be the greatest of human achievements.
Without a heart-set on positive outcomes, not much good happens; in my humble experience
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Yes Mark – a soul constantly buffetted by wayward winds and whims of fashion and fancy gets exhausted and jaded, unless he/she maintains some sort of buffer – your ‘loyalty to ideals’ fits that bill nicely (alll tempered by a smidgeon of sapient’s questioning and the pursuit of truely just outcomes of course).
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” Holding steadfast to a beleif without questioning it, no matter how valid it may seem, is an attribute of religion and works activly against science and the procurement of truley just outcomes.”
It is not an atribute of religion as much as an atribute of human nature. While I totally agree that the unquestioning religious dogma of some is particularly disturbing, it is no more so than the unquestioning dogma of a secular world that believes that nothing will stand in the way of the endless pursuit of wealth and power.
Religion, namely christianity has been at the forefront of many “just” outcomes such as ending slavery, helping the poor, and inventing the modern education system to name a few.
And you may be suprised to know that some of the first scientists to suggest the earth may infact be very old were christian geologists.
No doubt some bright spark will rattle off some “sin” list to discount the net possitive input of the church. I wonder whether the green movement will have any less flawed history in 2000 years time (assuming we still exist) or will it take its share of the blunders of world history.
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A pleasant and unexpected outcome from frog’s lack of providing any new postings has been a very interesting time of reflection from the contributors
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Indeed kjuv. I take a long weekend off and everyone waxes philisophical! I should take more holidays, no?
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Suggest you have regular general discussion threads, like KiwiBlog.
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Shunda,
I had no intention of attacking christianity or such, many supposedly non-religious groups act in a manner very similar to religions and cults, while i use religious as a derogitary term it is ment to describe an unquestioning and devout beleif in that which is without proof or even disprooved and should not be seen as applying to all followers of religion nor not belonging to those whom favour less supernatural approaches.
One would think that you would choose different examples than those thus cited, though in its much shorter span the green movement has probally almost matched the christian ‘acheivements’, lol.
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Getting back to the original topic are our attitudes to the disabled really that bad? Don’t we have wheel chair ramps everywhere etc. One thing that sets the far left apart (it seems to me) is that they are never satisfied with changes to society. Woman’s rights, minority rights etc even after long historical adjustments are still (as she put it) “we are in deep denial” etc.
Nickers!
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Censorship or patience needed?
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“We are often in deep denial that we even have an attitude problem, some of our best friends have disabilities but we don’t realise we might be one of them.”
Is our attitude to the disabled really that bad? Don’t we have ramps everywhere and building owners bemoan having to put in disabled toilets. It seems to me that one thing that distinguishes those at one end from those at the other is that despite great historical shifts (womens rights, minorities etc) it is never enough.
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‘Seems as though we can’t say “take up your bed and walk” but we are being asked to make ourselves see a walking person?
Having said that people don’t always have time to cross all the ‘t’s and dot the ‘i’s in their behaviour and we may at times (without thinking) assume the one pushing the wheel chair is the one who has more marbles (not recognising Stephen Hawkins) but…..?
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Is this the model?
Kultural Marksism, or Political Correctness, says that all history is determined by power, by which groups defined in terms of race, sex, etc., have power over which other groups. Nothing else matters. All literature, indeed, is about that. Everything in the past is about that one thing.
http://www.academia.org/lectures/lind1.html
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