Random selection versus popular election : some second thoughts on the idea of a citizens’ jury randomly selected from the population at large.

Could such a random sample provide a better legislature than a parliament of “duly elected representatives”? On reflection, I have to concede that a random sample would have some advantages. Firstly, because they would not be people who had promoted themselves into positions of power and authority, the randomly selected legislature would include those who are not motivated by the desire for power, wealth, or fame. It would also include those who are of a modest and reserved disposition, and those who would be deterred by the aggressive, competitive nature of democratic politics. So it is arguable that a randomly selected body could deliver better laws and better government than a democratically elected parliament.

The advantage of random selection is that it would produce a more truly representative government than a popular election. In contrast to the present electoral system, a randomly selected government could accurately reflect the full range of age, race, gender, creed, intellectual ability and moral character in the population at large. The disadvantage is that by virtue of being truly representative it would fall short of the republican ideal, according to which the role of governance should be given to those members of society who are most capable and of the highest moral character.

To agree that a randomly selected citizens’ jury could be preferable to an elected parliament is to tacitly concede that democratic elections deliver less desirable outcomes than could be obtained by pure chance. And I do so agree. But I also believe that to accept the method of random selection would be to set our sights too low.

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Kahikatea says:

“no, the proposal was to pick people at random, the same way as ordinary juries are chosen.”

The jury system is a reasonably effective way of determining criminal guilt or innocence. But a constitutional convention is not analogous to a judicial process. The role of a jury is to determine facts, and make judgements on those facts according to law. The purpose of a constitutional assembly is to make laws, a process which requires quite different qualities to those required from the jury in a court of law.

And given a randomly selected constitutional assembly, one would expect the conventional political wisdom to be dominant. So although it would be, in some respects, the exact antithesis of the elitist assembly that I was anticipating, I still can not see how it could work to bring about constructive constitutional change.

My point remains, that it is foolish to try to engineer constitutional reform by artificial means. Perhaps the left hope that by bringing “ordinary folks” into the corridors of power they might be able to provide a balance to the corrupting power of wealth in the political process. If so, I believe that they are mistaken in their hopes. It is not going to be that easy. Constitutional reform will only come when the people are ready for it, work for it, and demand it. Inviting a bunch of “ordinary New Zealanders” into parliament would probably amount to nothing more than an act of political condescension by the professional politicians.

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One of the problems with that idea is that juries are not really random. They consist of people who have the time to attend.

I know a significant number of people who had thenselves excused from jury duty on the basis that they were too busy and in important occupations.

That type of intelligent productive person would be missing from the citizens assembly if it was chosen by the same means as our juries.

It’s frightening how many court cases have been decided by people who are not really competent to adequately weigh up the evidence.

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Geoff Fischer Says:
December 1st, 2008 at 9:47 pm

> The problem with “citizens’ assemblies” or a “citizen jury” is that they will inevitably be elitist. One would expect them to be filled with hand picked constitutional lawyers (the conservative option) or self-appointed political activists (the radical option) but in neither case would they be representative of the people. Therefore the abandonment of the previous government’s plans for electoral reform is no great loss.

no, the proposal was to pick people at random, the same way as ordinary juries are chosen.

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The problem with “citizens’ assemblies” or a “citizen jury” is that they will inevitably be elitist. One would expect them to be filled with hand picked constitutional lawyers (the conservative option) or self-appointed political activists (the radical option) but in neither case would they be representative of the people. Therefore the abandonment of the previous government’s plans for electoral reform is no great loss.

I agree that the democratic process in New Zealand is able to be manipulated by moneyed interests. I agree that is not a good state of affairs.

But the right wing of the regime has no will to reform the system, and, even if given the chance, the left-wing of the regime would have no ability to do so. Change will only come as ordinary working people cease to participate in political parties (the participation rate has already dropped from about 25% of voters in the heyday of the regime to just over 2% today), refuse to vote (currently up to 30% of the voting age population), and eventually go on to establish new forms of economic, political and military organisation in opposition to the current regime. And that will be a very good thing, going far beyond what could be achieved by an elite group of the regime’s political insiders.

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bj

“You feel the urge to “slam” people… How civilized.”

Oh, do lighten up. Use the word “criticize” if you sensibilities are that delicate.

>>childish invective

Compelling arguments

>>Have you learned something?

Yes.

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Eredwen

“a local name for mental institutions in pre-effective-medication days.”

Is that your idea of humour?

If so I think it is sick, there is NOTHING effective about modern mental health practices.

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You are looking at 4.7 million to run this a citizen jury made up of people picked by the greens and labour. I doubt very much it would have been non partisan. The law was flawed at the start and I am glad it is being scrapped. Also, we the taxpayers save 4.7 million. Great, we cut the toe nail off the bureaucratic dinosaur.

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>>Some folks seem to think that “they’ve won” and as a result that all they have to do is pile on to finish us off. Ignorance is bliss and there are a lot of people on the right who are simply way too happy.

It took more than 1800 years (from Aristarchus to after Copernicus) for the idea that the Earth revolved around the sun to be accepted into mainstream thinking. The complicated epicycle constructs, developed to a high degree of sophistication by Ptolemy, provided a model that ensured the acceptance of the geocentric model of the universe for many centuries. The green position that humankind has both a dependence on and a responsibility to the broader environment can be regarded as a further salvo at the powerful belief that Man is the centre of the universe.
I don’t really know why most of humankind continue to hold onto the anthropocentric paradigm. However, ironically it may well result in our undoing – it may turn out to be our ‘asteroid of extinction’ vis a vis the dinosaurs (supposedly).

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G’day all.

Off to a 2 day meeting. I will try to keep up, but WILL rely to comments to me by Wednesday.

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Eredwen

Some folks seem to think that “they’ve won” and as a result that all they have to do is pile on to finish us off. Ignorance is bliss and there are a lot of people on the right who are simply way too happy.

I’ve noticed the change. Less content and more rhetoric. Not that I’d have regarded that as possible 4 weeks ago.

respectfully
BJ

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bj

Reading through frogblog at the moment … it really seems to be turning into a “funny farm” (a local name for mental institutions in pre-effective-medication days. )

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Davec has a problem with truth

I don’t expect anything. That is not the same as saying it won’t happen, just that I don’t expect it and if your attitude is any indication, my expectations are likely to be correct.

“A closed mind” is a trans-dimensional leap from my expecting National to make a mess of things. Typical right-wing rhetoric, devoid of realistic content.

BJ

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bjchip has a closed mind
Which is the reason for having an EFA. This EFA, not so much. We will I think, happily support anything that comes out that is effective. We will not I suspect, get to support anything that comes out of this government.

Meaning that nothing that comes out of this govt is ever likely to be effective, suspects bjchip. Go have a coffee with eeredwyn and Ari – you should be able to create an environmentally safe cafe somewhere under the sand to make your heads feel at home.

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DaveS:

I have gone through our various posts and interchanges in order to write this (and have read, and noted, that you are of Welsh origin which will be a factor in your use and interpretation of language.) I now realize that I was mistaken in my original assumption that you were one of the young-male frequenters of frogblog.

The following is comment and partial analysis (of informal, and friendly intent.)

On my side of the equation:
Firstly, you will note the absence of women on this and other blogs.
I visit frogblog from time to time, as a part of the (unsolicited) Green presence, of which only a very small proportion are women.
In general, women find most blogs “testosterone dominated” and, unfortunately, frogblog is no longer an exception.

Males as a group have different ways of interacting, which can be described as a combination of “pissing contests” and “male bonding”(or “mateship”)! These flow over into blogs, including frogblog.

Using this categorization: “Dave S” (Davie) is on frogblog as part of the “opposing team” in the “pissing contest”, and your posts do reflect this, no matter how carefully you write them.

My reactions to your posts are from a woman (minority group and with different ways of interacting)
and as a long time Green (who sees you as a guest),
and as a long time Tertiary Teacher of Communications English (now retired).
We have clashed at all those levels.

Perhaps, from now on we could find common interests in the futures of our grandchildren (living or potential)?

I have been too fast to categorize you, and you have seemed too slow to recognize/acknowledge that the Greens DO know what they are doing, currently and long term. We are a very well organized Movement, and Political Party (which I first joined as the Values Party in the early 1970′s.)

By the way, I’m curious: did you know what “a Freudian slip” is ?

I hope this clears the air!

eredwen

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I’d just like to address the first sentence of the post, ignoring altogether the pros and cons of the EFA, and instead look at the first four words: “The Green Party initiative”.

Given the current position occupied by the Green Party, I dont think there will be a lot of Green Party initiatives under the current parliamentary arrangements….

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You feel the urge to “slam” people… How civilized.

We remain what we actually are, not what you claim we are, not what you think we are, and all your childish invective has proven nothing but our greater patience.

Go then and “slam” them.

I do wonder what your motive is for being here at all. You’ve added no knowledge. Most people here I can have conversations with and learn SOMEthing. You have been an empty vessel. Have you learned something? That seems unlikely but I have to hope it is possible… barring that I have no idea why you’d bother coming here at all.

BJ

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>>It just makes you responsible for the next 3 years.

The difference is that I’ll slam National just as easily as I’ll slam the LabGreens.

The price of democracy etc….

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Icebaby

They were tired of Helen and they were tired of being treated like children, so they opted for being treated like wholly owned (wage) slaves.

I don’t disagree that there were problems here. I’ve pointed them out myself thanks, and no insults from you were ever likely to alter them.

That doesn’t make you “right”. There are vastly more ways to be wrong than to be right as you are going to spend some time learning. It just makes you responsible for the next 3 years. The mistakes are all there for you to make. Have fun.

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Dave

My wife’s name is Svetlana. Here she is a sort of raisin

respectfully
BJ

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