by frog
Another day, another coloured ribbon. Yesterday, many kiwis spent the day adorned with a white ribbon to show that they don’t condone violence against women. Raising awareness is a key objective of such days and I was disappointed that I did not see any particularly overt press on the subject.
For me, the most salient information on the subject was to be found on The Handmirror, where over two posts stargazer quotes, with permission, from a speech made by Deborah MacKenzie last Saturday. The clear messages for me are that knowledge of the violence is not enough to stop it and that our legal institutions are still failing women by putting them into untenable positions. I’ll only pinch a bit of it, and highly recommend that you follow the links and read stargazer’s original two posts.
From the first post:
However, at Preventing Violence in the Home we know anecdotally that in many cases offenders go straight from court to the victim’s home and often times will blame and punish her for police/court involvement. A recent report released by Leigh Combes and Mandy Morgan based on interviews with women whose partners had all gone through the Waitakere Family Violence Court found that in many cases the women were being re-assaulted shortly after the offender was originally arrested and while he was on bail. These women were not made safer initially by the police/court knowing about the violence.
Sadly knowledge of the occurrence of domestic violence is not enough to prevent it happening again. And yet it is so often the case that the court and others have a false presumption that because the court knows about domestic violence the offender wont dare hurt the victim again and that suddenly women have the ability to safely work with the offender to end the violence.
And from the second post:
I hear judges and lawyers comment that the women mostly want the violent men back anyway so its best to respond to the violence in ways that do not ‘hurt’ the family. I read in the paper that women stay in relationships or return to them even though the man has hurt them, without any analysis of why they might return and this implies that the women must like the violence. I see in government policy such as the review of the Domestic Violence Act a proposal that women be mandated (forced) to attend change programmes.
Underlying all of these responses is the idea that if we can fix the woman we’ll fix the problem. Now hang on a minute! Isn’t it the violence that’s the problem? Isn’t the person who perpetrates the violence the only one who has the ability to stop using it? Certainly that’s what we teach in our men’s stopping violence programme.
But this belief that women in abusive relationships need to change is alive and well out there and in no other place is it more obvious than in the Court response to domestic violence currently, despite there being people who work there with the best of intentions in terms of safety of women and children.
Sometimes women will use the spotlight placed on them by the court to protect themselves for the future. It’s safer to say you want him back and you want the charges dropped and be seen to be his supporter, than to say you are completely terrified, he’s going to hurt you and the children when you know he is coming home after court and the judge won’t be sitting in your lounge keeping you safe.
In my view the court should not put women in this risky position, but it should accept safety and risk assessments from community advocates who then take responsibility for supplying information to the court instead of the women having to shoulder this burden.
If knowing is not enough and women’s refuge is underfunded and overflowing, there is clearly a lot more work to be done than wearing a white ribbon. I don’t have the answers, but it is clear from these quotes that there are people who likely do. Maybe it is time we listened to them and implemented their recommendations.
Published in Health & Wellbeing | Justice & Democracy by frog on Wed, November 26th, 2008
Tags: abuse, court, refuge, the handmirror, white ribbon day, women
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Violence Against Women is a terrible thing and I made my house the only Women’s Shelter in this small country town at one stage…because I had to…not cos I’m an angel(not that either).
Didn’t wear a ribbon because I’m against violence against men too – get in to terrible factional fights with my “Womens Army” (my description) friends in Sydney over this….but I tell them that all the men I know regard VAW as utterly repugnant and beyond the pale……but our organising principle in Society has always encouraged Violence Against Men, and it’s more prevalent and just as hatefull.
So why Discriminate? (again).
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White ribbon day is insulting to the vast majority of men who never have and never will hit a female.
This is simply another case of the feminist movements attack on all things male.
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Never one to let reality get in the way of your obsessively ideological view of the world are you, BB?
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BB – are you implying that violence is “all things male”. You are a worry, mate!
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Once again, BB, completely missing the point.
If you would never hit a woman, then the white ribbon campaign is there to celebrate that thought.
If, however, you wouldn’t hit a woman, but would belittle her efforts to extract some comfort or support for battered women, then your verbal and emotional abuse of those who work in this area is just as equal to ‘hitting a woman’ – it is attitudinal change that is sought here, not just a donation for a piece of ribbon, or attendance at one of the many hundreds of actions that took place in Wellington, and around NZ, yesterday – concerts in the parks, boys’ breakfasts, discussions about violence to women and how to support the support networks; there was a lot on, and a lot of agencies were out there, promoting the work that they do.
My greatest respect goes to Heather Henare, of the National Collective of Independent Women’s Refuges, who is constantly visible as the face of an often vilified organisation, which keeps it’s safe houses secret simply because violent men will, even after a police intervention, attempt violence at the support staff and premises that their terrified family have fled to – because they believe they are entitled to the services of ‘their woman’, the ownership of their children, and the right to batter these chattels at any stage of the relationship.
Lest anyone be confused, this also happens in white, middle-class families; and no woman is any less advantaged within the support systems, by her socio-economic background or ethnicity – all are received, helped, cared for, listened to, and given access to any resources to help escape the brutality of an abusive relationship.
To all the women and men who work within these helping agencies – kia kaha, kia manawanui, arohanui kia koutou katoa.
Of necessity, your names are not celebrated, your mailboxes do not overflow with thank-you cards – but you are famous in the hearts and minds of those you have worked with and helped.
Ka whaiwhai tonu matou,
Ake, Ake, Ake.
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Well said katie! I must also add that after reading today’s Herald this afternoon, it seems this important issue has received some much needed column inches. Thank goodness.
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Katie
“If, however, you wouldn’t hit a woman, but would belittle her efforts to extract some comfort or support for battered women, then your verbal and emotional abuse of those who work in this area is just as equal to ‘hitting a woman”
That is exactly what I mean, you seek to label all men as abusers (and no doubt rapists) simply because it suits your agenda when you know full well that is not the case.
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Back off BB. Making generalisations like “all men” is your hangup, not katie’s.
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Frog
If you choose to stick your head in the ground then so be it, but please do not expect me to do the same.
Men have come under constant attack since the late 80′s, we have seen our education system totally altered to suit girls as a result boys are failing miserably yet nothing is being done about it.
Men are under constant attack from the feminist media for being nothing more than men.
The more hard line feminists even want to change the rape laws to make the accused prove he did not commit the crime rather than the other way around.
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You really are knitting with only one needle sometimes…
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Thanks frog.
Back to fighting my own battles, myself:
BB: I did not generalise, I was specifically talking about your own semantics, a paragraph or two above.
I was referring to you, individually, not ‘all men’, or even, ‘men who are rapists’.
As a totally unrelated aside, as well as being an academically qualified feminist, I do not subscribe to the theory that ‘all men are rapists’.
I am quite fond of the 70′s principle of castrating all (convicted) rapists, possible with the addendum of ‘and all paedophiles’, as these are categories of crime where recidivism creates far more harm than simple burglary or speeding tickets, where men are also over-represented (now, that is a generalisation, but borne out by the statistics.)
[Please, no personal testimonies after this statement!]
I even like some men, to the extent of sexual relationships, but I happen to be very fussy – I like intellect as well as integrity, I have excellent bullshit radar, and I like a man with a good sense of humour, including the ability to have the micky taken, unmercilessly …
Those out in the hinterland blushing, well that’s as good a testimonial as you’ll ever get, just don’t get all celebrity-shy about it the next time I’m in town …
BTW, frog, you’re in the ‘too-young’ basket, if you are beginning to re-appraise any recent social events …
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Men are under constant attack from the feminist media for being nothing more than men.
Stop reading feminist media then. You’re not the target audience and it’ll just make you grumpier.
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Frog,
).
, a prime example of what social psychology research should be like. Infact, her research is a strong component of what motivated me to take the correctional and forensic path.
As much as I hate to admit it, BB has a point.
The feminist movement is known for smearing all men with the same peanut butter.
As for Leigh Combes, I had to put up with her for two semesters and chances are, considering the area my thesis may be in, that she will be my thesis supervisior. She is a nice enough person, but if you want an image of a rabid feminist convined that she is right and any differing opinions are wrong, well she and her GA are your women (dont say girls, she will dock marks
That said, her research is extremly interesting and kind of eye opening and shows very little of her normal bias
Ironicly prehaps, before i read her research i placed most of the blame on the male, after reading her research most of it is still on the male, though significantly more rests with the female than previously.
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Sapient and BB are successfully diverting the issue. They complain of the terrible pain they suffer from hearing an alternative gender and violence anaylsis that doesnt spare their feelings.
How awful that must be. How selfish of women to discuss bruises, broken bones, black eyes, split lips and days in hospital when the words of academics are so much more hurtful.
This is a tactic used by men everyday to avoid their responsibilty in holding their male friends and family to account for the violence they perpetuate.
If men simply looked at the few men around them – whom they care about and are friends with – and helped them break the cycle of violence, then those men and their families might be able to have the happy loving family lives that every person, male, female, child are entitled to have.
meyt
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Rather-large-generalisation-alert. Which feminism> – 1st, 2nd or 3rd wave? When? Where? That’s like me saying that religious movement/s are known for hating rock n roll.
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Meyt,
I wasint complaining mearly making an observation.
In so far as feminism is a pursuit of egalatarianism between the sexes i am entirly in support of feminism, but when it starts at trying to establish inequality in their favour I start to object.
I am totally and entirly against this form of abuse and in no way do i condone it eaither as a perportrator or through inaction. Infact, beleive it or not, I am an extremly passive person and the only times I have ever used physical force against another were against males in defence of females, one such instance being against my father in defence of his partner (whom went back to him the next morning i might add).
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Stephen,
While it is present in all three to varying degrees it is by far most pronounced in third wave feminism, and for the most part that is the wave with which I clash, and as it happens, so do the majority of female psychology students, atleast in the aforementioned papers by leigh.
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Anyway Meyt, I thought you above straw-men.
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I get sick an tired of the guilt laden bulls&%t we get from feminist nutters. Some of these feminists are the most hate riddled people our civilisation has ever produced.
Every time my wife steps foot in the hospital she is asked if I beat her, we got a pamphlet in the letter box that explained that when women physically lash out at their families it is for different reasons and we should just understand, while encouraging people to dob in any slightly “suspicious” males.
If I was to report violence and abusive behaviour in the relationships of people I know, the majority would be women! including one that has a habit of throwing chairs through windows and objects at her husband. If that particular fellow ever even tried to stop her she would likely get him charged for assault!!.
Violence is a societal problem not a gender problem.
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just hijack the thread slightly
Whenever I see the Haka performed I see a celebration of violence…
What do you see?
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Samiam,
I see violence, and as much as i hate to say it; i see the celebration the primary, violent, cultural perception of masculinity.
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I can see BB and Katie’s points. The “all men are rapists” slur came out of the 70s, I remember reading it in Marilyn Frenchs’ “the womens’ room”; to be fair to the author, it was one of her characters saying it; it does not necessarily mean it was the author’s opinion. But I think feminism has moved on since then and I now longer personally feel threatened by it.
However after recovering from an abusive relationship with an angry female partner, I think more could be done to emphasise the fact that domestic violence is not exclusively a prerogative of men. In some ways men are to blame for this, because it is not considered “masculine” to admit to being abused by a female partner, any more than it is considered “feminine” to admit to having an issue with uncontrolled anger.
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Sapient, I see the primary, violent, tribal, cultural perception of maori masculinity.
I don’t like it one little bit.
When I see Kahui twins, Nia Glassie etc I wonder if there is a connection between Haka (and all it symbolizes) and pathetic loosers expressing their impotence to live up to that.
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Frog: hmmm think you right; Katie’s 1st letter on this page is some of the better writing I’ve seen on this – it helps to know others have parked their igo’s and gone for something better.
NCIWR…for Government funding – I’ll tell Ches in the morning.
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Samiam,
While I admit it is rather blatent in alot of Maori culture it is just as predominant in western culture, just not so blatently
Though then again scientists and their apparent ‘inability to love’ is part of the whole masculinity thing too, apparently.
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“When I see Kahui twins, Nia Glassie etc I wonder if there is a connection between Haka (and all it symbolizes) and pathetic loosers expressing their impotence to live up to that.”
Actually, from what I understand about the Haka it is more a display of controlled rage or restrained strength. These are actually atributes a male, being generally physically stronger than a female, should be encouraged to have.
Perhaps if more young Maori men (and Pakeha for that matter), learned to feel a sense of strength with self control, some of these violence problems would begin to dissapear.
The Haka could actually be an important part of helping young men express their strength without taking their agression out on other people.
The problem with NZ is those with the feminist leftist social beliefs are trying to turn all straight kiwi males into lesbians.
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But a society that considers brute strength and violence to be positive things can never really get rid of the results of such an apprasial
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Brute strength and violence in themselves are not “evil” just another aspect of life on this planet.
When I chop wood with an axe it is a use of strength and violence to create fire wood, if I turned the axe on another person then we might have a problem.
Trying to deny the stronger sex their strength is just rediculous, it causes all sorts of identity problems that lead to social problems and around the merry go-round we go.
Trying to deal with violence by emasculating men is not the answer.
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Not in themselves they are not (though that depends how you define violence), but when they are seen as, and encouraged as, a means to an end then they do become so, and in the dominant culture they are still very much encouraged in that manner.
Lol, the stronger sex? I think that depends on circumstance, though it is certainly true that the male body is designed for ones self whilst the female body activly disadvantages itself frequently in favour of the paracite, lol.
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The thing is the more we hear about violence on women, the more we are hearing about violence on men. This isn’t a negative sum game.
You guys that can’t admire people getting together to raise awareness of violence and try to make a difference (and attempt to explain this with quasi academic/philosophical arguments) need to chill out.
The Haka can mean what we want it to (it is living culture). With the changing nature of rugby I interpret it as the expression of mateship and pride of a group of young men, who have overcome great challenges and developed great skills and fitness to represent their country. I also think it’s quite neat that a group of sportsmen can engage in a bit of theatre and art.
Sometimes its better to let things change while maintaining their good aspects (you know evolution)…rather than just tearing them down!
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JamieS,
I was not aware that the present discussion was about the matter of if we do or do not admire such action, i had thought it rather clear that we do.
What we, or atleast what I, was discussing/defending is that feminist ideology often makes assertions that are too generalised and in many cases with no foundation in facts and are more often than not rabid and vindictive. Like a woman whom is raped will often come to fear all men, many of the viewpoints of certain strands of the feminist movements are irrational and damaging to both the victim and those whom although of the same sex as the rapist are not the rapist, the fear and smear standing in the way of any recovery.
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There is another (unfortunately) very common form of domestic violence, and that is violence towards children. Maybe I am wrong, but my personal observation (based on only a small sample size) is that the perpertrators of violence towards children are as likely to be women as men (and by violence I mean actions which, for example, leave bruises or worse; I’m not referring to light smacking as a form of discipline).
What I am trying to point out is that I think the issue of domestic violence goes deeper than simply gender.
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violence, and that is violence towards children. Maybe I am wrong, but my personal observation (based on only a small sample size) is that the perpertrators of violence towards children are as likely to be women as men (and by violence I mean actions which, for example, leave bruises or worse; I’m not referring to light smacking as a form of discipline).
What I am trying to point out is that I think
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Meyt
“This is a tactic used by men everyday to avoid their responsibilty in holding their male friends and family to account for the violence they perpetuate.”
And the lies just keep on coming!
What you have written is a load of rubbish, to suggest that those who do not abuse their partners are avoiding responsibility is simply PC claptrap.
I do not and never have hit my partner, nor is there anybody that I know of in my wide circle of friends and family who is an abuser.
Lets get this straight, domestic violence and for that matter child abuse such as we have seen with Nia Glassie and the Kahui twins is not something that should shame all New Zealanders as the vast majority are not abusers or child killers, as soon as you and the rest of the PC brigade begin to accept that you may see some improvements however as long as you continue to paint all men and all parents with the same brush you will encounter resistance.
Target the abusers, you know who they are and you know that the only way to do this successfully would be terribly un PC but until you do so our kids will continue to die and women will continue to be battered and murdered ……………………or is political correctness more important?
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How come whenever the issue of violence against women is raised, there’s a whole barrage of responses citing violence against men and the supposed deficiencies of some feminists?
If you want to do something about violence against men, by all means go ahead, but the only reason for bringing it up here seems to be to undermine the efforts of those raising the issue of gendered violence (and most domestic violence, particularly the most serious cases, is gendered).
It’s a bit like responding to Hitler’s invasion of Poland by pointing out that Poland previously invaded Russia and rambling on about how British and French democracy had serious flaws.
“Every time my wife steps foot in the hospital she is asked if I beat her,”
So? Are medical professionals not supposed to ask people about health risks now?
“When I chop wood with an axe it is a use of strength and violence to create fire wood,”
Aaaaarg! Post modernism alert! Words no longer mean anything. We can’t condemn violence because anybody who has screwed up a piece of paper has used violence against that piece of paper.
As an aside, BB, I know you feel a need to draw attention to yourself by mixing up the words “lie” and “different opinion”, but wouldn’t it be easier, and have much the same result, if you walked around your local shopping mall with your underpants on your head?
“Target the abusers, you know who they are…”
Actually we don’t which is part of the problem. If you do how about sending a list to the police?
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Wonder how many fathers funerals I attend next year? Very busy this year.Well done feminist agenda. Sick country won’t recognize that the perpetrators of DV are equal in numbers in the gender stakes? Oh well, new gummint but the feminist ism just keeps on keeping on. God bless so many fallen fathers falsely accused by a sinister judicial system.
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I’d like to see you prove that instead of just mouthing off about it, because I’ve seen plenty of good evidence that domestic violence disproportionately effects women and children.
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If you don’t abuse your partner, that’s good. You’ve met, as far as I am concerned, the minimum standard in opposing domestic violence. It doesn’t, however, mean you’ve stood up to domestic violence in any meaningful way.
Let me put it this way: If someone tells you they wish they could beat the nagging out of their partner, would you laugh? Because if you don’t immediately make it clear that you find that kind of comment unacceptable, you are implying to that person that you think it’s OK to beat your partner. As a man, I have tens to hundreds of conversations with other men every day. Even informed on this issue and passionate about protecting women from male violence, I will probably still talk to men who think that I am siding with them in their attitude that women deserve to be beaten. Men completely unaware of the issue will probably talk to one or more people a day that get that impression from them.
It’s not enough to not actually beat people. If you really want to make a difference, you have to be “out” about not accepting any form of domestic abuse- especially violence. You have to be vocal about dealing with arguments peacefully and respectfully. You have to imply that it’s never okay to suppress your partner’s opinions just because you can.
And if you’re concerned enough to be doing that for men as well as women, that’s even better- because although men may be the majority members of the culture of violence, we don’t have a monopoly on it, sadly.
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Your evidence Ari is at odds with recent DV academic studies like the Dr Ferguson report. Look I detest DV, however the sick ideology adopted by the lefty PC feminists – that all men are rapists does more harm to society than you can ever imagine. Achieve balance, no agendas please and start to address the insidious DV running rampant in our communities. You greens put ideology before children,so don’t you dare criticize my stance on a problem you helped create!
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Excellent post D4J.
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Ari, D4J
You are comparing slightly different things.
Ari said DV disproportionately affects mothers and children. D4J said it is perpetrated equally by Men and Women. Both statements can be true.
I’m not inclined to believe anything here without examining the research and frankly I am not interested enough to do that much work. Can’t afford to take on the responsibility of becoming informed about gender distribution when the problem is mostly alcohol and amphetamine distribution.
respectfully
BJ
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Meyt
re:
>
This is a tactic used by men everyday to avoid their responsibility in holding their male friends and family to account for the violence they perpetuate
>
I hear a plea for a return to the 50s here! Society used to ‘take care of’ its own back then. A violent man, whether to women or children, was dealt with by his neighbours, f he needed two black eyes the local bobby took him to the cells after the second one and let a beak apply some formal justice. Used to happen between the women too – though perhaps it was a changed hairstyle rather than a black eye – I still remember my mother convincing me that a neighbour was trying the ‘partly bald look’.
Since then we have managed to change society beyond all understanding! Most people don’t know their neighbours (I recently introduce my each side neighbors to each other, they’ve both lived where they are for over 20 years!). Bopping a neighbour, male or female, gets you a visit to a cell and a charge for assault, so no one does it any more. People who do offend are treated as victims and ‘rehabilitated’ not punished.
You can’t have it all ways round! If you want the people in your community to hold their neighbours to account, you have to make it ‘safe’ for them to do it. Sadly, not something on the socialist agenda as is clear from the stance on disciplining a violent or disruptive child; somehow I don’t think sending a neighbour who abuses his wife and children to the naughty corner is going to do much good.
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dad4justice Says:
November 27th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
> Look I detest DV, however the sick ideology adopted by the lefty PC feminists – that all men are rapists
does anyone really believe that all men are rapists?
Of course it’s a ridiculous and stupid thing to believe, but that’s only relevant if anyone actually believes it, and I’ve never heard anyone say they do.
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Ari
“Let me put it this way: If someone tells you they wish they could beat the nagging out of their partner, would you laugh? Because if you don’t immediately make it clear that you find that kind of comment unacceptable, you are implying to that person that you think it’s OK to beat your partner.”
You can put it any way you like Ari but do not presume that you have the right to tell me or anybody else how to think.
One of the most insidious Green party policies or ideals is hate speech legislation, it seems that you not only want to control what people say but you also want to control how people think.
If I came across somebody who thought that DV was a joke I would more than likely write him or her off as a total jerk however I am not going to be told by you HOW I should deal with it.
In case you have not noticed the left no longer set the agenda in New Zealand.
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“the lefty PC feminists – that all men are rapists”
You’re just making things up – I’ve never heard, or seen cited, any feminist making such a claim. I know plentyu of ‘lefty PC feminists’ and they don’t hold to this view. It’s just one of those things that idiot anti-feminists repeat to each other over and over again and pretend it’s true.
As to the oft-cited claim that domestic violence is distributed across all genders, that depends on what you count as violence. If you take the daft post-modernist approach and count such things as shouting at your partner or pushing them off you in self-defence as violence, then its pretty equal between genders. If you look at serious violence, say that which results in injury, it becomes overwhelmingly inflicted by males. Throw in sexual violence and it becomes even more so.
This guy’s website has reseaarch on the topic:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/mpj/
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Sam
Are you seriously suggesting that you have never heard a feminist say that all men are rapists?
You are either lying or have not spent as much time around feminists as you said you have.
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bigbro
The original quote that you object to was:
“All men are rapists and that’s all they are. They rape us with their eyes, their laws, and their codes.”
The quote comes from Marilyn French’s book “The Womens Room”, which was written in a poetic/literary style (where “poetic licence” is understood).
Marilyn French was a USAn author (born 21 November 1929) who grew up when the general attitudes of men towards women were very different than those in much of AotearoaNZ today, (though reading some of the posts here I have to wonder just how different!)
Most importantly: as this quote obviously still has a “resonance” among some women in AotearoaNZ, I would have thought that any male who regards himself as truly egalitarian would want to find out why this might be, instead of attacking, belittling and “bad mouthing” the current generation of women.
eredwen
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BB, typical – rather than cite some evidence to the contrary you just bluster and accuse me of lying, without anything to support your accusation. You are just hot air.
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RE
>“All men are rapists and that’s all they are. They rape us with their eyes . . . . .
AND is it any wonder! The way women dress – for work – these days is beyond belief, even for someone who gloried in the 60s. Today I have had a comely young woman parading through the office in hot pants and what some would consider a risque bra. When it was suggested (by another woman,) that a little more covered flesh might be appropriate, she retorted that she was dressed in the current fashion and wasn’t going to listen to a frump tell her what to wear!
Were men to dress in shorts and open shirts you can bet your last dollar the women would be complaining! Equality? YES, I would love some, and a bit of consideration as well please!
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Strings,
Reminds me of how the workers at my mothers call center when it was still considered a small business used to change the screensavers to naked men, when a male employee complained and they had to take em down they complained of sexism and oppreshion (never mind it was a woman who isssued the order). Of course the screensavers returned, the male employee then decided to do a similar screensaver with scantly clad individuals according to his hetrosexuality; now that caused an uproar from the woman!
What I find ironic, and feminist scholarship recognises this, is that the whole open sexualisation of women was part of the feminist movement, but it has now transformed into just another way that women are oppressed, or atleast so the articles claim, and i can see some truth to that. Though it is interesting to note that men are oppressed in just the same manner through dress standards and expectations, and ultimatly that has less to do with overt oppreshion by males as to do with ‘fashion’, which i might point out is set mainly by women these days
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I read alot of feminist publications in the feilds of psychology, sociology, and god forbid anthropology (god, i hate the academic integrity of anthropology, but this week ive read “eco-feminism”[good book, comparitivly] by maria miles and vandana shiva, and a large amount of other extracts and journals); I do it because i do want to understand the point of view, it interests me, and i do want an egalitarian society but i try to look at it all objectivly; i do exactly the same thing as i do with this party; i read it and think about it and i like and agree with most of it, but there is quite abit that has little grounds and other assertions that would do more to hurt the movement than to help it. both the third wave and the green party suffer from this, i dont mean to argue against the movement or the party as a whole but rather point out where they are totally off the rails.
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Interesting that a discussion of domestic violence has been turned into a debate about the strengths and weaknesses of feminism.
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Sapient Says:
November 28th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
> Reminds me of how the workers at my mothers call center when it was still considered a small business used to change the screensavers to naked men, when a male employee complained and they had to take em down they complained of sexism and oppreshion (never mind it was a woman who isssued the order). Of course the screensavers returned, the male employee then decided to do a similar screensaver with scantly clad individuals according to his hetrosexuality; now that caused an uproar from the woman!
Was this in the 1990s by any chance? I remember noticing a time in the early-to-mid 1990s when the sexualisation of men seemed to become acceptable while the sexualisation of women was seen as a no-no.
Ironically, I got the impression that the men who wanted pictures of naked women were actually sincere, while the women who wanted pictures of naked men did not find the pictures sincerely appealing, and were really only interested in them as a sort-of girl-power statement (and to think that the men who posed for them probably thought their bodies were being sincerely admired!)
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The way I’ve always had this quote explained to me is that it’s a lot more metaphorical than you think. Because there are no reliable ways of knowing who is a rapist and who isn’t in advance, women have to view all men as potential rapists if it’s up to them to protect themselves. I don’t think acknowledging that this is the reality of how some women feel is harmful. I think putting out extreme feelings and thoughts like that clears the air, and we don’t have a right to immediately dismiss them.
Personally, I think it’s far more up to us as men to self-police and stop enabling and condoning rape in public, to make rape not okay, and to generally not act as criminals ourselves or allow others to perform these kind of vicious assaults.
As for Dr Ferguson’s report: Have a link for me to study in more detail?
Right- I have no doubt that hurt feelings and harmful manipulation of psyches and yes, even physical violence happens to both men and women. (I’m sure it even happens in gay relationships) But generally when I talk about domestic violence I am focusing on beatings, on partners who are so controlling or manipulative or jealous that they lock their partners up or control their public behaviour excessively. The kind that it’s dangerous to stay with and scary and very difficult (and yes, dangerous) to make a decision to leave.
Sadly these individuals who commit the most worrying domestic violence are overwhelmingly male. That’s not to say there isn’t need for support for men, and that we shouldn’t take care and attention to support men who are victims of this type of behaviour. But the overwhelming statistics for serious domestic violence and abuse make it clear that this is a problem rooted in the male viewpoint of what is acceptable in a relationship, and that us men have some sorting out to do there. That it’s not just the violence, it’s the culture of violence.
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I don’t really see how looking at a woman and thinking “wow she’s hot” is raping anyone with my eyes. I am quite comfortable with the roles being reversed. If women want to gaze at my beautiful, sexy body, that’s fine by me. The only complaint I have is that it doesn’t happen more often
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The problem with white ribbon day is that it is a public display of self-righteousness, which appeals to both hypocrites and “holier than thou” types, but not to the ordinary bloke who has no desire to advertise his own moral superiority. I cannot be the only one to have noticed that very few men take part in white ribbon day, and I doubt that I would be the only one to draw comfort from that fact.
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Kahikatea,
No, while I cant give you the exact year i know i was certainly at my last high school at that point, so it would have atleast 2003 but wouldint have been any latter than 2005.
Ari,
I agree that it is the duty of men to police the actions of those whom they associate with in reguard to domestic violence and esspecially rape. The problem prehaps is that those whom dont condone it generally have an entirly different world view to those whom do and as such tend to associate in different groups. I do not condone rape or domestic violence in any form and none of my male friends do eaither (female is another matter though), so understandibly it becomes rather hard for me to police the action of others as i dont associate with any whom would do such, so short of giving seminars or wearing a “you assult her = Ill have your liver” there is little I can do, that is appart from, as shunda mentions, alittle neighbourhood behavioural modification. And as ive said already in this thread, that is the only time i am willing to and have used violence, extremlly willing accualy.
Kiore,
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. Just a remark, but The Fitz, the main student bar in my town, is often packed full of nude students of both sexes, though much more females. They dont seem to mind, lol.
I think its about reducing a living breathing person with a personality down to a peice of meat, an object. Though, that said, I reduce everything down to nothing but an object
Change nudity laws and i will happily walk around town starkers, they can look at me all they want, though it would probally put them of men
Ari,
While I disagree with the statement that there is no way to know, (personally i think it rather easy; when most of your associated are female you soon learn which guys you have to watch around them, esspecially around their drinks.) I agree that it is up to the potential rapee to protect themselves from the occurance, socialise in groups and such, dont become totally trashed (though thats a matter for another day), etc. Though that said, the majority of rapes are by people known to the victim, so yeah… pick your associates wisely.
Not all men are evil, if you think they are, go out with large groups of friends or pick a big gay guy to go with you, that way you have someone to watch over you and you know he wont rape you, (inapropriate)lol.
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“I think its about reducing a living breathing person with a personality down to a peice of meat, an object”
Yes, but I don’t eat any flesh, human or non-human
I remember I invited a young male to talk to my students the girls were giggling and pointing at him and obviously thought he was sexy. And yes I was annoyed .. that they never did that to me 
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“Reminds me of how the workers at my mothers call center…”
Now in my work place any piece-of-meat and/or filthy joke that comes up on the screen produces great glee and frivolity from both sexes. Heck the customers usually join in too!
Women and men adore being admired, who doesn’t?
“while the women who wanted pictures of naked men did not find the pictures sincerely appealing” Maybe so, but when Ray Sefo (world champion kick boxer) stripped down to his undies in the shop one day to get changed… well lets just say, the women in my staff weren’t quite the same for the rest of the day!
I guess being relaxed about sexuality is weird huh?
Seriously a more relaxed attitude to each other and our respective sexuality might go a long way towards helping the potential sickos not going sicko.
Then again it might not either, but at least us normal, happy folk can have fun.
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samiam,
here here!!!
And psychologically sound at that.
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“I am quite comfortable with the roles being reversed. If women want to gaze at my beautiful, sexy body, that’s fine by me. The only complaint I have is that it doesn’t happen more often”
Sweet. Problem is that in a few, but by no means few enough to be ignored, instances, men leering at women leads to rape or other nastiness. Doesn’t happen the other way around, so pretending everything can be ‘equal’ is nonsense.
Supposing you knew that women gazing at your body just might lead to them beating the living daylights out of you. Would you still feel comfortable basking in the admiration then?
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There’s too much violence. Many women suffer violence at the hands of men and sometimes women. Many men suffer violence at the hands of other men and sometimes women. I understand that of all serious assaults in New Zealand, about 90% of the victims are men. Wearing a white ribbon should not be a statement of anything other than an abhorrence of violence, to whomsoever directed. I will support the White Ribbon Day when it is no longer promoted as a gender issue. There’s too much violence. Full stop.
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Some of this thread is very hard to read without a sense of despair – recently a friend of mine was almost killed by a man she’d been going out with. She’d stopped seeing him because he had started to become controlling, jealous and moved to pushing her around so that she became afraid of him. Her friends supported her in keeping him away, but in the end she had to get a court order to stop him going to her house (they had not been living together, it was her and her teenage children’s house). Finally, she laid a complaint to the police about his breaching that order. The day he went to court, he returned to the area, got drunk and went around to her house late at night. He broke in, grabbed her and dragged her off into the bushes. Fortunately, her son heard her screaming, grabbed a stick of some sort and raced down the hill just in time to hit the much bigger guy who was strangling her. Then the neighbours heard, called the police and she was rescued. She was badly bitten on the face, lost teeth, was nearly strangled to death, lost the use of her right hand and was horribly bruised. That was months ago and she is not over it yet. She can’t work, is depressed, afraid and still having surgery on face, teeth, hand. Her son was a hero, though he was scared to death of this guy.
What I am pleased about is that this small community has since begun to organise for men to have discussions about domestic violence and there has been a very successful women’s night also raising the issue. It isn’t a result of scanty clothing, nagging, or equal violence from women – it is about some men (NOT all men) behaving as though they have more rights than women and resenting being told they haven’t. It really is a community issue in the end – all of us need to work on it and create a safer society.
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sam,
That, sam, is a false, and naive, statement.
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I was offered and wore a white ribbon
and yet some on this thread seem offended by the topic of male violence against females ……………….
There is and always has been far to much violence against woman and children in New Zealand.
It used to almost be a mans right to ‘sort out’ his missus.
Nowadays violence in the home is reported far more than it used to be ( but still only a fraction of the violence that is committed is reported ).
A large percentage of the increase in violent crime is because more people are reporting domestic assults.
This ‘increase in violent crime’ was used by the natianal party and Act to beat the drums on ‘ law and order’ and they have promised to get tough/ have zero tolerance.
………… so I wonder what decisive approach the nats and act will bring to bear on men who beat their partners .
Or is stopping domestic violence a bit to PC for them………………
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Janine – I too read this thread and couldn’t help but feel an overwhelming sense of despair (with some silver linings, including posts by Sam Buchanan and Ari). The rate at which it deteriorated into a strawfeminist debacle (feminists think all men are rapists!) was predictable, but I think that the kind of old-fashioned and manifestly incorrect attitudes which have been espoused here (i.e. rapists are easy to pick out! Just look out for the bad man in a trench coat lurking up a dark alley! / Women need to stop getting trashed if they don’t want to be raped! / This one time a man I knew was hit by his wife, so on the whole women are just as violent as men!) should surely be behind us.
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