NZ Green Party
Denial is no longer an acceptable response

Greenpeace ironically notes that New Zealanders should be seriously alarmed at the prospect of the National-led government damaging the country’s relationship with the United States.

“New Zealand is at serious risk of becoming an international Pariah over climate, and jeopardising its international standing and trade relations. The last thing we want is to become the equivalent of the French Government during nuclear testing in the Pacific.”

Yeap, it seems after years of carping about the importance of relations with the United States, Act’s climate denial stance and demands for a select committee to investigate whether the earth really does revolve around the sun will be moving us in exactly the opposite direction to closer friendship with the United States.

This warning follows a speech by American President-Elect, Barack Obama, to California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger’s Global Climate Summit to which Obama pledges sweeping action to combat climate change but notes that the United States cannot meet the challenge alone:

Now’s the time to confront this challenge once and for all. Delay is no longer an option. Denial is no longer an acceptable response. The stakes are too high…

Anyone that is willing to join the cause of combating climate change will have an ally in the United States.

So, Rodney Hide, How about it?  Can you put aside the denialism, if not for science at least so we can stay cuddling up to that country with all the big shiny nuclear weapons?

51 thoughts on “Denial is no longer an acceptable response

  1. “New Zealand is at serious risk of becoming an international Pariah”

    And you guys will do your best to see that happens.

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  2. Do you really want the equivalent of the EFA – rushed through with a millions errors.

    There was no proper Regulatory Impact Review and as Nick Smith said “The worst day in my Parliamentary life was to be handed a bill with over 1,000 amendments and given three days to cast my vote.

    The Australian Productivity commission has recommended they start off with a carbon tax and move to an ETS only when a stable deep carbon market has developed. Why should we rush to join all the frauds and scams.
    Remember, carbon trading was invented by Enron.

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  3. Owen, I think it’s more the examination of the science that is the biggest problem frog/the Greens have with Rodney ‘I have a degree’ Hide.

    A little odd that the carbon tax is being looked at again when I thought it had been done to death, but it still seems the better option.

    The thousand amendments was *bizarre*, yes.

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  4. Did you mean New Zealand, or Greenpeace? I think New Zealand is far from a Pariah. Whereas Greenpeace seems to be staffed by less and less rational people.

    Perhaps New Zealand’s stance will be noticed in 2-3 years when Europe picks itself off the floor from its various crises. But it is pretty clear that climate change is not going to be a priority over the next wee while. I haven’t heard the term ‘food miles’ for over a month.

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  5. “I haven’t heard the term ‘food miles’ for over a month.”

    Well I think most would agree it’s a fairly useless term on its own – maybe that’s sunk in an iddy bit.

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  6. So what made NZ a pariah with the US last time? Can anyway answer that – Yes johnny, that correct we picked a fight with the US over allowing a US warship to visit. Now who was involved in that – oh yes Greenpeace that highly effective organisation that is single handly doing more to kill people in developing countries than the worst multinational,

    At least Oxfam grew up in recent years and realised free trade was better for human welfare. Greenpeace just exists to keep a small people employed in an activist lifestyle based on peddling indulgences for upper-middle class angst.

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  7. >to investigate whether the earth really does revolve around the sun

    If ‘scientific consensus’ is the ultimate indicator of truth then it follows that the sun revolved around the earth until some time in the 16th or 17th century at which point the earth started revolving around the sun instead.

    And I would suggest that the Greens have used the US as an example of what not to do far more often than ACT have used it as an example of what we should do.

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  8. And I would suggest that the Greens have used the US as an example of what not to do far more often than ACT have used it as an example of what we should do.

    More that they invoke the US as being one of NZ’s ‘traditional allies’, therefore we should support them in matter X, no?

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  9. WWHS, i’m actually reading Lange’s autobiography at the moment, and he seems to think that the anti-nuke stuff was Labour’s preferred policy direction for years at the time. For what it’s worth, i’ve never really heard about and role that GP played in the initial decision to ban ships that wouldn’t say whether they were carrying nukes or not.

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  10. StephenR

    When you have finished that book try reading working with David by Michael Bassett, you will note (as is common with those from the left) that Lange spends a fair bit of time trying to rewrite history.

    Having said that I enjoyed his autobiography, it did leave me with the feeling that he was a sad, lonely and weak man whose only real desire in life was to be loved.

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  11. I’m not saying it was a Greenpeace sponsored initiative – I give more credit to all New Zealanders having a view (an in part, it was an appropriate response for a country on the perihery of international events and little to now influence, it helped make us feel better which was psychologically important at that time – what we screwed up was the way we went about ending the relationship with the US – that saw a number of US diplomats lose face and they not the politicans remembered and it is only now that those diplomats/civil servants have some trust in NZ again) just that it was a big wagon that greenpeace climbed into with an impact on NZ – US relationships. Now greenpeace is saying we should be worried about damaging our relationship with the US – it comes across as an irony free zone over at greenpeace.

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  12. If denial is no longer acceptable does that mean that the Greens want to make denial a criminal offense?

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  13. (as is common with those from the left)

    …and sports players, entertainers, coaches, spiritualists, academics, historians…Ironically his was the most economically right wing government ever though, yeah? Perhaps i will read Bassett’s too – and THEN i can read book the book reviews!

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  14. I’m not cuddling up to shiny nuclear weapons for nobody!

    I think climate change is a bit more important thatn ACT’s fuzzy thinking, and Rodney’s mustard blazer …
    [once again, I bless whatever powers be, for Russel's good taste in suits and his PhD in useful, hard scientific thinking ... not meaning to knock any other Bowen staffers' PhD's, you understand ;-) ]

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  15. WWHS – thanks, that’s a bit clearer.

    katie, what does a PhD on the Alliance party to do with hard scientific thinking? perhaps i’m missing something…

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  16. StephenR;

    Generally, the history of conservation activism & politics, as represented by elected members of the Alliance (some of whom stood on green environmental platforms), does involve an understanding of environmental science, particularly given Russel’s history in organising direct activism around the anti-GE issues.

    Or does your memory for NZ politics not go back to 2001/2002/2003?

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  17. StephenR

    “Ironically his was the most economically right wing government ever though, yeah?”

    At first, then he lost his nerve and we have been paying for it ever since.

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  18. Thanks katie, but I am still somewhat sceptical. Don’t think you need scientific thinking in the classical sense (proof, disproving, experiments etc) to write about the Alliance, really. Doesn’t matter though, just curious.

    Or does your memory for NZ politics not go back to 2001/2002/2003?

    Pretty much. I’m young :-D

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  19. Oh, and StepheR;

    Having read Lange’s bio, and being in the middle of Chris Trotter’s No Left Turn currently, I’d say there’s about as many versions of how the nuclear issue achieved prominence in Labour Party policy, as there were bodies in that caucus!
    It was by no means a consensus-held view, and Roger Douglas is still spitting tacks over it. The US Embassy was mightily displeased, and various groups within the Ministries were vastly put-out. If the Nat’s thought they could get away with repealing it, they would do so tomorrow.

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  20. “At first, then he lost his nerve and we have been paying for it ever since.”

    I thought we’ve been reaping the rewards? Make a decision!

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  21. It was by no means a consensus-held view, and Roger Douglas is still spitting tacks over it.

    Really?! I read this in Lange’s book this morning (to paraphrase): ‘if Douglas ever ventured forth a view on foreign affairs, I can’t recall it.’

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  22. StephenR:

    Douglas was very pro-America, pro-business, and pro-Capitalism.
    Read any ACT manifesto from 1986 onwards.

    One of his main platforms is that we should not have policy that inhibits the free-market actions of business owners (or any other property owners) – which the ANZUS treaty falling over surely did, as USA markets froze us out on many commodities.

    I am not his kind of Libertarian ( particularly, because I’m female, feminist, & not a property owner!!!)

    [see, this is why I don't tutor in Politics, I can't stand people who don't prepare for tutorials, and only do the mildest of reading around the topic ...]

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  23. Oh, and for an alternative view of Lange’s life, read his cousin Micheal Bassett’s hatchet job.

    A real in-house fighting doozy, that one.

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  24. Bassett’s book is totally accurate Katie, it might be a “warts n all” style book but at least one can get a feel for the real Lange.

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  25. katie – how can you be a liberterian and yet reject the basis of liberalism?

    Either you are a liberal or your not – I find it very hard to not be an economic liberal and not be a social liberal at the same time. The logic is the same.

    Be careful before throwing stones about only doing the mildest of reading around the topic

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  26. “Denial is no longer an acceptable response”

    The words of a true leader with insight and foresight, a real breath of fresh air bringing validity and clout to the urgency regarding climate change. I hope politicians (the ones in power) take note of Obama’s stand on this issue…….

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  27. Froggo – are you saying that Obama is going to lie awake at night hoping Rodney will bring his considerable intellect to the table?

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  28. Anyone would think mr Hide was the prime minister with all this hand wringing.
    The real issue here is the greens would like NZ to have a new state funded religion following the Obama messiah.
    The great messiah’s leadership is yet to be proved, just like National’s “bad” environmental record is yet to be proved.
    John Key is not in denial re global warming, so whats the flippin problem?

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  29. …… you dont know much about New Zealand history ( even the real recent stuff ) or national govts do you Shu Ba ?????? .

    And I would say yes New Zealand is right out of synch with the way the world is moving at the moment.

    Just as America ditch’s their right wing party and most unpopular president since they started keeping records, and just as their counrty suffers and starts to pay the price for letting greedy money men run the show for the last decade……………….

    We here in NZ elect a greedy money man who wants MORE of everything which got America and the world into its present mess.

    Hide is a buffon in a pin stripe suit who couldn’t even get the support of 4 out of 100 voters.

    ………….. I think he’ll be the death of this national govt

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  30. “And I would say yes New Zealand is right out of synch with the way the world is moving at the moment.”

    What, for the last week, or the last 9 years?

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  31. “We here in NZ elect a greedy money man who wants MORE of everything which got America and the world into its present mess.”

    No, John Key was good at his job, I think you’re the one who should brush up on recent history.

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  32. daddyO,

    - “Just as America ditch’s their right wing party”

    It’s not really clear what, if anthing, was right wing about the Bush administration. He increased the size of the state more than any president since FDR – including the biggest expansion of Medicare in its history – and sent government spending through the roof. Bu any definition, he’s a lefty.

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  33. The Last election shu bu

    And Key got rich as a money trader and wheeler and dealer.

    Its the fat cat money men and wheeler and dealers who have caused a crisis in the american and world financial markets …………..

    Depending on just how bad the crisis and recession which these ‘traders’ have brought upon the usa and other countrys.

    Depending on how deep a mess they have created and how much pain and hardship they will cause for average working people.

    Depending on those things will determin how we look at money man john key in the not to distant future .

    Exactly how did he make his 30 million again ???????????

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  34. Hey your kind of correct wat dabney

    But the republicans = conservatives= right wing ….. ie tax cuts for the rich.

    Just like our national govt really

    And last time they were in power they spent proportionaly MORE on governing than the Labor govt we just had.

    Thats the thing with these ‘right wing ‘ govts …………. they are not what they seem and are probably more along the line of ” Big Brother” as opposed to “nanny state “

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  35. “Act’s climate denial stance and demands for a select committee to investigate whether the earth really does revolve around the sun”

    It’s funny you should mention the earth going round the sun. You may have seen this article today:-

    “It is usually believed that the planets orbit around the sun, but this is not so – the sun and the planets orbit around the centre of mass of the solar system (termed the barycentre) in so-called “barycentric orbits”…This divergent behavior causes widely varying outputs of energy from the sun on a regular basis, and these variations in the interactions between the sun and the planets have been assessed by various geological and related studies. The variations in energy correlate with uncanny precision with past vagaries of the Earth’s climate on a cyclical basis, the periodicity being about 179 years.
    The correlations with recurring periods of very cold weather, as evidenced by historical data, can only be described as irrefutable.
    Some years ago Fairbridge predicted that the next cooling period would commence in about 2006, and would be evident by 2011; and his prediction thus conforms with recent atmospheric temperature data, i.e. the Fairbridge hypothesis conforms with the observed data, and its predictions conform with the outcome. Like it or not, the barycentric orbit explanation for climate supplants the IPCC projections. Anyone who reads Mackey’s summary could not fail to come to this conclusion.”

    But I won’t spoil it for you. Here’s the link:-

    http://nzclimatescience.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=377&Itemid=1

    which itself contains a link to the main PDF file:-

    http://www.griffith.edu.au/conference/ics2007/pdf/ICS176.pdf

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  36. “Its the fat cat money men and wheeler and dealers who have caused a crisis in the american and world financial markets”

    Fight fire with fire I say.

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  37. Shunda

    I know you won’t believe this but, nobody actually earns 30 million. People work hard AND they are lucky AND the system permits them to take advantage of the hard work of other people.

    That’s how large amounts of money are made… unless you win lotto. Key made his money trading FOREX, working for banks. You know my opinion of banks, bankers and the money that sloshes around in that alternative universe.

    I am not suggesting that what he did wasn’t “hard work”, but to suggest that it was simply hard-work is to ignore the two other factors which made that fortune possible and to ignore the reality of the massive wealth transfer to the banking class.

    Hell, when we couldn’t borrow money so that the interest rate spreads would make them richer they simply got the government to transfer 4 trillion dollars of federal government debt so our children have to pay it as taxes. That’s the sector responsible for the bulk of the world’s problems. Fundamentally dishonest. Whether Key is honest or not is a different question. He MAY be working for NZ… and I hope he is.

    I am not impressed by his “hard work”. I know what that actually is and I don’t reckon he’s done near as much of it as I have… yet. Certainly not 30 million dollars worth.

    BJ

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  38. bjchip Says:
    November 20th, 2008 at 5:41 am

    > I know you won’t believe this but, nobody actually earns 30 million. People work hard AND they are lucky AND the system permits them to take advantage of the hard work of other people.

    I’m prepared to believe that Peter Jackson actually earned tens of millions of dollars by making his films, in that the opportunity really wouldn’t have existed without what he did. But I doubt any other New Zealander who has recieved that much money actually earned it. With Teresa Gattung, for example, it’s almost as likely that Telecom’s profits would actually have been less without her, in which case you could argue that what she rightfully earned was actually a negative amount.

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  39. Douglas was very pro-America, pro-business, and pro-Capitalism.
    Read any ACT manifesto from 1986 onwards.

    One of his main platforms is that we should not have policy that inhibits the free-market actions of business owners (or any other property owners) – which the ANZUS treaty falling over surely did, as USA markets froze us out on many commodities.

    Eh? You mean tariffs? Like what?

    I am not his kind of Libertarian ( particularly, because I’m female, feminist, & not a property owner!!!)

    Your body not property? ;-)

    The actual libertarians regards Douglas as mildly-moderately pro-freedom – he would still use taxpayers money on education, for instance.

    [see, this is why I don’t tutor in Politics, I can’t stand people who don’t prepare for tutorials, and only do the mildest of reading around the topic …]

    I think you’ll find the diversity of the topics here make it very much a losing proposition to try and prepare ahead…and not reading ahead for tutorials is hardly exclusive to politics in my experience. :-)

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  40. So what made NZ a pariah with the US last time? Can anyway answer that – Yes johnny, that correct we picked a fight with the US over allowing a US warship to visit. Now who was involved in that – oh yes Greenpeace

    i assumed what you were going to point out next was how the US has now come around to accept our point of view & call us allies once again & pursue free trade with us.

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  41. BigBro says:
    “Bassett’s book is totally accurate Katie, it might be a “warts n all” style book but at least one can get a feel for the real Lange”.

    Geez BigBro, that sort of comment would get you a fail in HIST 101 that’s for sure. Haven’t you heard of critical reading?

    No history book is “totally accurate”, and that is quite without taking into account the biases of the writer.

    Actually, your comment might well explain why your version of NZ history and the wonders of Rogernomics is so impervious to being altered by actual facts. You obviously read Roger’s first book and thought it “totally accurate” :-P)

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  42. Mr Dabney: you quote “anyone who reads Mackey’s summary could not fail to come to this conclusion”.

    The linked paper claims “25 to 35 per cent of the 1980 to 2000 global warming” may be caused by the Sun (compare Solanski and Krikova (2003), who claim “the Sun cannot have contributed more than 30% to the steep temperature increase that has taken place since [1970]“). Say you accept Mackey’s figure. Uh, this still most of the warming is not explainable by solar variation.

    This is why one should read more than summaries.

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  43. andrew – answer is no.

    US has not come around to our point of view. The accept us as good friends which they can work with on issues of importance to the US, such as avoiding failed governments in the pacific. The P4 agreement was based on policies of the republican administration using bilateral agreements as a work around to WTO negotiations. Provides pressure on APEC to get moving on improving asia-pacific trade which then provides leverage on Europe to come to the WTO table. Otherwise the EU will continue to hold out on trade and continue to create begger economies in Africa.

    20 years of spiting your face is not an acceptable way to develop relationships or improve social and economic well being.

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  44. There’s no debate over why the “antinucular”/labour link – the left was thrown the nuke bone and while they were scrapping over it the government snuck passed the only useful legislation in the post war history of our parliament. Thank god or heaven only knows how far below the OECD ladder we’d be now.

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  45. Kahikatea

    As much as I like Peter Jackson and what he has done, he had two other things going for him, and I don’t think that anyone makes themselves wealthy for talent, genius, obsession and hard work in the film industry. It takes the other two things I mentioned and a fair amount of both.

    Does Jackson deserve to be wealthy? Absolutely. Did he make his bucks without being lucky and without a lot of other people working hard for him? Not a chance.

    respectfully
    BJ

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  46. WWHS

    The problem with this is that the USA did not in general, get 20 years of face-spitting rancor from NZ. The current administrations got a lot of strife from us but overall it wasn’t perceived as anything but a principle. Most Americans understood it for that at least and left it at that. That’s the American talking about what we Americans felt out in the ‘burbs.

    It should not have been the blockade it was. There are a lot of ships in the US Navy that might have visited without having any need to reveal anything that anybody didn’t already know. Clearly someone’s ego WAS bruised… but the result never had to be what it was. Has anyone INVITED a non-nuke ship to visit?

    respectfully
    BJ

    BJ

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  47. Hi BJ – your right that the USA did not in general get 20 years of rancor from NZ. What happened was that inside NZ we had 20 years of rancor amongst ourselves and where unable to come up with a new workable framework for engaging with the US. Sadly 9/11 provided the event that enabled NZ to develop a framework for engaging with the US.

    The ship visit problem was that there was a demand that no nuclear ship (armed or powered) was allowed to visit – your right that a diesel powered frigate, destroyer or cutter could have been allowed to visit. Slight problem was the neither confirm nor deny policy of US as to whether the ship was nuclear capable and NZ view that anything nuclear capable is not allowed. NZ response was a bit ridiculous as almost any platform can be nuclear capable this includes our fleet of orions used for maritime patrol (heck even a herky bird can be nuclear capable if you can figure out a safe way to roll a bomb out the door).

    So end result no invites for other forms of ship visits, some upset US diplomats who lost a lot of face (and diplomats have long memories) and an unwillingness to initate conversation with the US unless certain preconditions were met. Basically the same stance taken by the greens on negotiating with national. Outcome was nearly 20 years on the outer until an external event to the parties sprovided a different path. Even now this path is fragile.

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  48. Ps – I say sadly about 9/11 because it should not have taken a tragic event before people could talk to each other.

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  49. US has not come around to our point of view.

    i never said they had. i said they had come around to accept our point of view & call us an ally regardless.

    20 years of spiting your face is not an acceptable way to develop relationships or improve social and economic well being.

    & fortunately the USA have finally come to see that!

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