“Valis, by what’s been said by yourself and others, it would appear that those in the Green party elite think they have done a brilliant job in regards to their handling of this (and other) elections. I don’t.”

I think you over state what has been said. I have mixed feelings but also know there is great uncertainty ahead. Whether we have done the right thing is not able to be determined at this point.

“I couldn’t give a toss about the Green party,…”

That’s not a tenable position for many of us.

“I give a toss about green policy/strategy/action. If another group proposes a sound idea, I’m all for it.”

We’d say the same, hence our willingness to work with anyone issue by issue.

“The Greens seem to want to huddle in a cozy little circle staring lovingly at each other’s navels and dreaming of 300 years in the future.”

Not true, though we will continue to think long term.

“Their political maneuvering appears to be designed to appeal to club members only and they appear to refuse to roll their sleeves up and get stuck in.”

The second part of that is not true as well. The first part has an element of truth as I explained here last night http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/11/18/the-emissions-trading-scheme-hits-the-backburner/#comment-65666

“Are you guy TOO GOOD to associate with mere normal politicians? Esp those nasty soiled right wingers.”

Of course not, but enabling them to achieve things we hate will not come easily either.

“I ask again, what has the Greenz stance achieved to date in NZ politics?
If NZ swings to the right, then bluudy well work in the right, if to the left, then work there too. Just do it.”

We have achieved more than most of our size. Doing more is very important, but you really can’t expect a holistic party to suddenly throw its holism out the window for the sake of perceived expediency in one area.

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“Even if we were in Confidence and Supply, if someone did something raw isn’t their precedence for tossing it all over and saying sorry, this is broken, the government can’t HAVE that agreement because it didn’t keep faith with us?”

Maybe, but history is tough on the smaller party in such situations, because making a principled break can easily appear (and is usually presented) as being extreme.

“I also seem to recall that the UN decided to send troops to Kosovo. I missed the part where intervention to stop the two sides from slaughtering each other was immoral and anything but a last resort.”

That’s ok, we all miss things, for it was anything but a last resort. The Clinton administration wanted to bomb and engineered this result. Have a read of the Rambouillet Agreement and see if you can spot how.

“Whatever it cost them they WERE in government for a time, and they made progress with their priorities. Unlike some parties I know.”

Progress has been made, not at all enough for sure. Its easy to speculate on what might have been, but you make it sound so sure. Anyway, there are plenty in the Greens who agree with you and that will make for an interesting debate.

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Valis, by what’s been said by yourself and others, it would appear that those in the Green party elite think they have done a brilliant job in regards to their handling of this (and other) elections. I don’t.
I couldn’t give a toss about the Green party, I give a toss about green policy/strategy/action. If another group proposes a sound idea, I’m all for it. The Greens seem to want to huddle in a cozy little circle staring lovingly at each other’s navels and dreaming of 300 years in the future. Their political maneuvering appears to be designed to appeal to club members only and they appear to refuse to roll their sleeves up and get stuck in.
Are you guy TOO GOOD to associate with mere normal politicians? Esp those nasty soiled right wingers.
I ask again, what has the Greenz stance achieved to date in NZ politics?
If NZ swings to the right, then bluudy well work in the right, if to the left, then work there too. Just do it.

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Who said we have to play “Safe” ?

Even if we were in Confidence and Supply, if someone did something raw isn’t their precedence for tossing it all over and saying sorry, this is broken, the government can’t HAVE that agreement because it didn’t keep faith with us?

I also seem to recall that the UN decided to send troops to Kosovo. I missed the part where intervention to stop the two sides from slaughtering each other was immoral and anything but a last resort.

Whatever it cost them they WERE in government for a time, and they made progress with their priorities.

Unlike some parties I know.

BJ

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bj, going into coalition is dangerous for any small party, just look at our short history. That’s why parties have shifted to staying outside Cabinet by choice despite having much less influence as a result. To coalesce with a centre right party is even more fraught with the danger of fundamental compromise. In the case of Die Grunen, the example I’m thinking of is the decision to send troops to Kosovo, a hugely unpopular move which cost them heaps of support among their base and ultimately their role in govt.

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Toad

Creating awareness the way we have been doing it seems (except for Jeanette) to elicit NEGATIVE reactions in the majority of voters. Two elections I know of where we have been within the margin of error of losing ALL our MPs. We should have been over 10%… could have reached towards 20.

In politics you do not move things all at once… you take what you can get when you can get it, you set priorities, you make deals and you make progress. I have the same goals as you do for the long haul… and I see no progress at all in getting there. I firmly believe that we are marginalized and on this path you and I will, neither of us, see any progress before we die. We may see large parts of the planet going up in smoke, but progress for GPANZ and its IDEALS will even then, elude us.

very respectfully
BJ

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Toad Says: Most of us in the Greens try to look 300 years ahead. We are creating awareness. Eventually it will turn into far greater numbers of votes – either for us or for another party that takes on most of our kaupapa with a genuine commitment.

But, Toad, have we really got that long? One gets the distinct impression that all (or most) of our natural systems are under threat of drastic, possibly irreversible change that will most likely be highly disadvantageous to life including human life on this planet. Doesn’t humankind have to step up, and step up quickly, to its responsibility to restore and respect much of the natural processes that support us?

Hence, while the long view has relevance, the new player on the block is urgency for a change in direction. Our actions over the past fifty or so years have changed the emphasis.

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Valis – Could you link or fill us in on the downside of the Grün party policies? Just to know what I need to look for rather than have to grovel the net.

respectfully
BJ

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Problem is, samiam, some of you guys look just 3 years ahead.

Most of us in the Greens try to look 300 years ahead. We are creating awareness. Eventually it will turn into far greater numbers of votes – either for us or for another party that takes on most of our kaupapa with a genuine commitment.

We in the Greens are in it for the long haul, and my political aspirations will probably not be achieved until long after I die. But I would still like to see some progress before then, so I could die happy that humanity is moving in an environmentally sustainable direction.

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And what has the Greenz stance achieved?

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In part because they saw what it did to the German Greens.

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Good chaps those German greens, they are happy to work with left or right wing governments.

I wonder why the NZ Greens are not keen on that idea?

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