Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Rev Mua Strickson-Pua has been out supporting the arrestees as they appear for depositions hearings on firearms charges in the Auckland court this week.

http://tinyurl.com/4fgwlt

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

I would hope I’ve largely learned *not* to do that about other parties. Of course we muse and guess and even have to sometimes make political decisions based on what we think is going on. But I try not to imply certainty in public about what is happening even behind the scenes. In one small recent example, I’ve commented on this blog that Nick Smith often makes claims that are trivially shown to be wrong, like that the govt is forcing people to buy low flow showerheads, or that the ETS legislation passed contains a carbon tonnage threshold that would exclude small businesses when there is NO version that ever had that in it. I have simply said it would seem he either does not know what he’s saying or may even be lying, without feeling the need to go farther. Now I could weave a story about how National is so concerned about its lack of credibility on environmental issues that it self-consciously has fallen into attacking every govt policy as a means of hiding its own inadequacy. I could quote an expert who agrees that a party’s psychology often deteriorates in such circumstances to the point that in desperation it is compelled to ever more extreme statements. And who’s to say that this is not a possibility? But there’s is a point beyond which it becomes absurd, some would dare say “wanking”.

Bryce, you admit mortal fallibility and no intention to speak with absolute authority, and I accept your word. But you did not achieve this in your post.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

We KNOW you see things differently, you aren’t a Green

Hmm… Do you vote Green? Could I persuade you to…

Never mind

The problem is that the Green party is, as you observe, not all one thing, nor all one way. We have our Quixotic moments still, and there are significant limits to the “whatever” in the “whatever business-model marketing techniques it can to sell itself” area.

Nor have policies been subordinated to the goal. Much to my personal annoyance the idealists still write policies. I didn’t say Idealism is dead, just that it gets argued rather than simply accepted. It has very few real limits placed on it. The only real change has been the manner in which the appeal to the voters is made.

As far as reckoning the public “dumb”, I didn’t say that either… I said that they didn’t think, not that they couldn’t. The public is by and large, not INTERESTED in engaging in detailed analysis of policy. If you couch your appeal solely on such an interest your party will fail to gain a foothold of any sort in Parliament. Which describes a lot of the policy/ideological parties. I liked calling them “movements” because it clearly distinguishes them from the actual serious efforts made by the actual parties.

The line about “political cynicism” provides a lot of value judgment words about things like “political short-cuts” to power. As though there was a “proper” way to do this? What might that be? Educating everyone in Aotearoa on the importance of their vote and the need to carefully think through every policy on offer?

There’s a lot of value in trying to do the education thing but to hold that it is the ONLY right way to get voters to support us would be …. unwise.

respectfully
BJ

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

I think you might be being a bit precious! While I’m all into online civility (and like others I occasionally let myself down!) I don’t believe that there is anything wrong with critiquing a political party on their own blog. The great thing about Frogblog (and many other blogs) is the free-ranging debate and discussion. It’s not like we’re in some sort of high-society aristocratic polite and stuffy function where you can’t say what you truly think in case the host is offended!

So feel free to come over and comment strongly and robustly about my blog posts at: http://www.liberation.org.nz

Cheers

Bryce

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

You draw the differences between “a movement” and “a political party”. This is a very interesting observation. And in a sense I think you’re right. I would see it slightly differently: you can have on the one hand, ideological policy-oriented political parties, and on the other, office-seeking pragmatic parties. So the difference isn’t between parties and non-parties, but between different forms of political parties. The office-seeking type is the one that puts more emphasis on getting into office and using whatever business-model marketing techniques it can to sell itself. The policy-seeking party concentrates on trying to change opinions in society even if this is a slow process and means being rather unpopular at times.

The Green Party has clearly shifted into this second type of party whereby the main interest is getting as many people into Parliament and trying to be part of a government. And all policies have to be subordinated to this goal. And this is being reflected in the current Greens campaign. And I guess, as you say, idealism in the Green Party is dead. And once you take the disparaging stance that the public are dumb, then you are already on that slippery slop of political cynicism which allows you to justify any dumbed-down politics and opportunistic short-cuts to power.

Valis – I’m not pretending to know exactly what’s going on inside the Green Party (although I do have a number of sources), and so I never said anything like that. I’m just an observer of politics and am “calling it as I see it”. Obviously I could be wrong about it all, or elements of it, but just because I’m not inside a political party doesn’t rule me out of trying to understand the Greens. Surely you (and others in the Greens) do that about every other party?

Bryce
http://www.liberation.org.nz

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

“they thrash around”
“When a party is lying on its back”
“party is essentially advertising its weakness”
“Greens struggling in opinion polls”
(perversely, I was under the impression that the Greens were doing well in the polls!) perhaps I am, as you say, unintelligent.

and then quiz you on the integrity of this comment

“And parties should be totally free to use celebrity endorsements on their billboards” – ‘totally free’ … you must have a different interpretation of ‘totally’ than I do.
I did find the responses from Valis and bjchip illuminating though, despite my limitations.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Fair enough Bryce, we could all do with a bit less of the personal. I was gobsmacked at your detailed analysis which suggests some deep study or inside knowledge of the Green Party. And yet, so far as I know, you know very little, possibly nothing, about the issues and dynamics that concern us internally, let alone our motivations and intentions, making your conclusions mere conjecture. And yet you seem extraordinarily comfortable holding forth as though your logic is so compelling as to be obvious. I find your surety on these matters to be either disingenuous or delusional, not to be too personal about it.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

The point that politics here is “Americanized” has to do with what the major parties and the money have done to the politics here. Green voters have almost invariably been people who look forward generations at a time and who THINK about what they are doing.

Expecting to get over single digit percentages of the vote by asking Joe six-pack to to cogitate on something more important than Rugby is a losing game everywhere. Recognizing that, the ads getting slicker and the “vacuous” nature of the adverts getting more obvious is simply gonna happen and while you take it to the Green party at least we have a shot…

Our recognition of the reality of campaigning in this environment appears to be giving us a little traction. We haven’t changed our principles, we haven’t altered our policies (except to provide a few more of them). I joined a “Political Party” not a “movement”. There’s a difference.

The problem is that you are attributing this change to some failing at the core of the party. “the party is essentially advertising its weakness. It’s run out of ideas”

That’s simply a wrong conclusion from the observable facts.

Idealism is no substitute for having members of parliament representing your ideals as effectively as possible.

This isn’t a “movement”. It is a Political Party., A unique one in many ways. It has not given itself over to banality as you suggest. Its advertising may be less intellectual than you like but it does the job.

BJ

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

But I can’t apologise for repeating my argument, because I don’t think I have. I’ve actually elaborated further on a number of points. Obviously in any debate or discussion a participate is going to reiterate points or expand on things. I’m tempting to think that you’re looking to avoid the discussion by just attacking the messenger (ie me!) rather than the message. Of course Vallis is up to the same old tricks, which is a bit sad. Can’t Greens debate the actual issues without descending into such personal attacks?

Also, I clearly communicated that the Greens political marketing campaign has adopted a *strategy* that is part of the “Americanisation of politics” – I’m not sure how you could read this as saying you support “everything that our buddies in the good old US of A do”. Again you seem to be intentionally confusing the issues, as I’m sure you couldn’t be that unintelligent.

Bryce
http://www.liberation.org.nz

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

But at least the Greens haven’t gone the whole hog – as happened in Italy – where they elected a famous porn star to Parliament!

What is wrong with a porn star being elected? Greens are inclusive of all people, so porn stars are acceptable. A “live” show would certainly add a few true blue males to the Green vote!

/tongue back in cheek.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)