Kevyn – are Libertarians extremists?

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BP – That is left, yes. That is right, no.

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wat – oh THAT ‘you’. It’s sometimes difficult to read your mind. I’m startled to learn that I represent an ‘aggressive ideology’ – I’d imagined I was speaking on my own behalf, but there you go!
Your suggestion that I insert ‘Scientology’ into my seemingly harmless and encouraging statement just doesn’t work, as I’m not a Scientologist. Are you just messing with words here? Are you really wanting me (and anyone following this thread) to believe that my ‘environmental’ friends and groups are extremists? wat a clot you are sometimes!

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Try substituting the word “Libertarian” for “Scientology” in your statement.

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“I don’t imagine that I’m ‘imposing my will’ on anyone here,”

What a really, really odd thing to say.

The Green Party modus operandi. Get involved in peoples lives, and tell them what to do. That is the left, yes?

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So we need to get rid of the well-fed, two-car, Western communist greens. Now that makes sense.

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kjuv,

Moore is not talking about imposing anything on anyone, he is talking about leaving them the freedom to choose for themselves. Big difference.
It is activism by rich well-fed greens and their two-car Western families which actually seeks to impose a particular ideology, which keeps most vulnerable people in dire poverty.

- “were they really that impoverished prior to their contact with the Western Industrialised nations?”

Er, yes actually.

greenfly

- “I don’t imagine that I’m ‘imposing my will’ on anyone here,”

“You” being the aggressive green/communist ideology you represent so, yes, you are very much seeking to impose your will on the rest of us. Witness the endlessly increasing list of restrictions and prohibitions you seek to force on people.

- “The ‘environmental’ people and groups that I know are very different from that: enthusiastic, positive, effective, dynamic.”

What of it? I think you’ll find that all extremist groups – whatever their cause – say precisely the same thing (particularly other religious groups.) Try substituting the word “Scientology” for “environmental” in your statement.

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One standard lie of the battery egg industry is that their unhealthy, battery farmed eggs are the cheapest form of protein for the poor. It is a way the corporate culture uses divide and conquer. Set the very poor against the totally wretched (battery hens). If you are against battery cages you are anti-the poor!

This is an insidious lie on two levels. Firstly nutritious and tasty vegan food actually contains more protein per unit cost than eggs (compare protein levels and prices of eggs, lentils, peanuts and pulses from reputable scientific talbes like the Ministry of Health/Crop and Food ones, and it assumes that poverty among humans is some sort of inevitable law of the universe, that it is not possible to build a just society; a society where nobody has to be hideously cruel to animals in order to eat enough to survive.

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wat – I don’t imagine that I’m ‘imposing my will’ on anyone here, just offering my opinion. Isn’t that what we are all doing?
I’m curious about your use of Mr Moore’s words as the touchstone for your beliefs about environmentalism. He sounds very jaded and so do you. The ‘environmental’ people and groups that I know are very different from that: enthusiastic, positive, effective, dynamic. Perhaps you and I and others on this blog are each thinking of different things when we discuss ‘environmentalism’.

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To Quote your Patrick Moore: ‘I think one of the most pernicious aspects of the modern environmental movement is the romanticization of peasant life. And the idea that industrial societies are the destroyers of the world. The environmental movement has evolved into the strongest force there is for preventing development in the developing countries. I think it’s legitimate for me to call them anti-human.’
Can’t this be considered as rather patronising? Is it really the (presumably) Western world’s responsibility to ensure that all other peoples conform to the modern economic/industrial model? Is it heretical to question global industrialisation? Why should we regard it as a panacea for the world? I fear that these are legitimate questions that the likes of Mr. Moore are not prepared to consider. He, and his ilk, seem to think that, as industrialisation has been successful for the bulk of the Western World, it must therefore be successful for all. The problem here is that the West’s success may well have been at the expense of the rest. I appreciate the simplifications of this argument BUT I really do not see that Mr Moore engenders any substancial respect for the traditions of what we may regard as the traditionally non-industrialised nations of this world. For instance: were they really that impoverished prior to their contact with the Western Industrialised nations?

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“The environmental movement I helped found has lost its objectivity, morality and humanity. The pain and suffering it is inflicting on families in developing countries must no longer be tolerated.”

Are you laughing now?

Please explain the humour to the rest of us.”

One man’s view and no doubt he is reacting to some real problems. On the other hand he seems to be a AGW denier, thinks we should go nuclear and embrace GE food, so forgive me if its not obvious how his plan will save the environment.

“What’s it like to be you? So sure you know what’s best for everyone else that you feel obliged to impose your will on the rest of us? To remove our choice and freedom and replace it with state dictats?”

GE? Nuclear? What are you talking about?

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>>“The environmental movement I helped found

I doubt very much that Patrick Moore ‘founded’ the environmental movement. True, he was an early member of Greenpeace which dates back to 1971. BUT the modern environmental movement can be traced back to the late 1940′s (Aldo Leopold) or at the very latest to Rachel Carson’s ‘ Silent Spring’ in 1962. Our friend Patrick is rather presumptuous, don’t you think?

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kjuv,

Grow up.

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Of course. How imbecilic of us! “Pollute to help the poor” should be our catchphrase. Consume to drop and, while you are about it, squander the resources of the ‘developing countries’ – for how else can they be become developed?

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greenfly, Valis,

Let me remind you again of the quotation from Patrick Moore, co-founder of Greenpeace:

“The environmental movement I helped found has lost its objectivity, morality and humanity. The pain and suffering it is inflicting on families in developing countries must no longer be tolerated.”

Are you laughing now?

Please explain the humour to the rest of us.

What’s it like to be you? So sure you know what’s best for everyone else that you feel obliged to impose your will on the rest of us? To remove our choice and freedom and replace it with state dictats?

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shunda – don’t panic. There are people who know what to do. Many of them are in this party, top to bottom. Watch and listen. G’night.

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That maybe so greenfly, but to me it dosen’t seem all that progressive.
Its just more of the same deeply polarised politics that has become part of traditional NZ society. Its probably our achilles heel as far as the country goes.
It is increasingly looking like NZ is about to go through the most difficult period in its history, politically and socially, and none of the political parties really seem even remotely prepared for it.
If we cannot return to the inovation and determinantion that NZ is founded on we could be in serious trouble, the petty squables going on in NZ now will quickly become a luxury of the past.

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Damn, we’ve been found out. Should’ve known we couldn’t hide from wat’s superior intellect. Guess I’ll have to go join the Illuminati.

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haw haw! Killer come back!

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Is that red raw?

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