Comments on: Shower despots

By: XYY

XYY — Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:18:59 +0000

Kevyn said…

Shunda, smoke is the actual problem. It’s how to reduce the amount of smoke where common sense has gone out the window.

I’d suggest that the quality rather than quantity of smoke is the main issue as a cooler fire is much dirtier than a hot fire. Vehicles and domestic fires contribute most of New Zealand’s air pollutants, and it looks like the laws on woodburner efficiency are there solely to improve urban air quality.

Back to Consumer:

Winter airborne pollution is a serious problem in a number of New Zealand cities and provinces. Minimising pollution means keeping your woodburner working well [...]

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: greenfly

greenfly — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 04:40:05 +0000

and shundra – it’s the very opposite of ‘killing several birds with one stone’

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: greenfly

greenfly — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 04:38:45 +0000

hedgerows yes! Homegrown wood for the fire yes! If you are not planting them now, you’re just blowing hot air. Are you people putting these ideas into practice or just building a great store of non-burnable, inedible knowledge?
Add to the hedgerow advantages – habitat for the pollinators that will soon have to fill the space left when the honey bees fall over under the weight of varroa and colony collapse brought about by the idiotic use by farmers/croppers of bee-a-cides used to coat seeds. Predatory beetles that manage pest insect populations? They don’t thrive under the shelter of a single electric fence wire – they need the very habitat that is being scorched in the name of increased production. Hedgerows are not just about growing wood for our fires – that would be the least important aspect.
Start planting them today! Include lots of natives – especially those that are from your bio region. Biodiversity is the key. It’s all very green and very much on the Green agenda. Poroporo, kowhai, ti kouka, harakeke – don’t forget fibres, we’re going to need them. Now, have a go talking to your ‘environmental guardian’ local farmers about these things. Good luck.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Sapient

Sapient — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 02:00:18 +0000

Shunda,
Yes! I would love to see hedgerows, the environmental, economic, and visual benifits are massive.
I would like to see them made using natives though, I remmeber that there are some natives that are quite well suited for the purpose, though what they are I cannot remmember.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Shunda barunda

Shunda barunda — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:25:09 +0000

Sapient, I wouldn’t see people growing fire wood in cities, but the point I was making is that overall landuse required for firewood production is suprisingly small.
As part of a dveloping sustainable culture though, firewood production could form a significant part.
For example, by encouraging farmers/landusers to grow more hedgerows and shelter belts,and sustainably harvesting them for firewood/timber a steady supply of firewood could be produced. You would simply replant or coppice what you cut down.
With the environmental benefits of hedgerows you could kill several birds with one stone.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Kevyn

Kevyn — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:23:42 +0000

Shunda, smoke is the actual problem. It’s how to reduce the amount of smoke where common sense has gone out the window.

Good home insulation will reduce the amount of wood that needs to be burnt and thus the amount of smoke produced.

Burning wood that has been properly dried will have the same effect.

Teaching people how burn wood will also have the same effect. For the same reasons that people have to be taught how to burn food properly if they don’t want to become dependent on takeaways.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Kevyn

Kevyn — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:13:10 +0000

Time for some cowboy logic – take a bath every spring whether you need it or not.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Sapient

Sapient — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:01:46 +0000

Shunda,
Yes, despite being in a flat I presently opperate a woodburner and it significantly decreases our power bills (though one flatmate insists on using a heater every night; angst), esspecially since we get the wood for free .
I dont think 0.6 acres is practical for most urbanites, though as energy costs rise I can see it becoming a long term farming option. that is, provided the carbon credit isint more profitable.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Shunda barunda

Shunda barunda — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 01:00:50 +0000

greengeek, this is what I am concerned about, as political correctness becomes entrenched common sense goes out the window.
Smoke has become politically incorrect even though smoke in itself is not the problem, not replacing what you are burning is.
While wood burners may not be suitable for an inner city environment they are probably still suitable for at least half the population.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Sapient

Sapient — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:55:21 +0000

hmmm, well if the trees from which the wood was harvested were used to generate carbon credits then it would be perfectly rational that, if sold for the purpose of combustion, the carbon it had previously sequestered, minus that trapped in the roots and soil, would need to be payed for otherwise the whole thing would be utterly pointless, no that it is terribly effective in its present form.
I have proposed a system that would work several times, even to the MP’s, I recal proposing a basicoutline to russel one time; the response i got was something along the lines of “okay, i can see how it is better than the system being proposed, but basicly the biggist difference is just that it eliminates the grandfathering effect of the present system?”, what can i say? exactly! that is the point! A carbon tax is totally pointless, it would never create real reductions, but with a trading scheme such as the one I proposed there would be no grandfathering, which is the greatist problem with the system the EU has implimented and that we are presently trying to. without the grandfathering we accually have a chance to turn into a carbon credit producer!

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Shunda barunda

Shunda barunda — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:52:34 +0000

Sapient, you may be suprised at how little land is required to grow firewood.
One acticle I have read had a figure of 50m x 50m of land could supply enough firewood for 2-3 homes indefinately.
While it may not be an option for inner cities it is still an under utilised option at present, modern wood burners are very good and should be encouraged.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: greengeek

greengeek — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:44:53 +0000

Shunda…I’ll bet you $10 that the ETS will eventually result in some sort of penalty or tax against those who use wood for home heating etc.

If not for some sort of misguided anti-carbon reason, then at least because of some “pollution” concern.

If the ETS considers coal to be a damaging form of carbon, I’ll wager wood gets tarred with the same brush. Certainly seems that way from the bad press being given to biofuels.

Unfortunately, as Sapient says, only the minority have access to enough wood to make good use of it. Maybe that suggests it is time we started on the journey to reduce the worlds population.

Certainly the global financial meltdown shows the folly of the “growth” mentality population pyramid scheme. Its not sustainable for population to keep on growing. Especially if it results in hot water rationing

I reckon if you can source homegrown energy off your own property you should have the right to use it as you choose. Even if you are bulding a new home which has to meet council requirements.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Sapient

Sapient — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:29:51 +0000

I seem to remmember that jeanette uses wood to heat her house and other things. wood which falls aplenty from the trees around her house in such a supply that she never has to cut any down, lol. unfortunatly with the modern way of living not all of us can have such a plentyful supply though.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Shunda barunda

Shunda barunda — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:00:07 +0000

Sorry greenfly….. my bad.
I had no idea, do you have any links to that stuff? sounds like I may have jumped the gun big time!!! Once again you guys need to make this stuff more visible!

My point to toad remains valid, some of the rules being imposed on home heating are absolutely absurd.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: greenfly

greenfly — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:21:09 +0000

hey shunda – I do know better than that – you’ve attributed someone else’s statement to me but now that you’ve hauled me into the debate, you must be aware that the Greens, through Jeanette especially, have been promoting the sustainable use of wood in the form of scrap wood from plantation harvesting, as a household fuel source? Jeanette has been proposing this for several years. Haven’t you been watching that develop? This seems to make a nonsense of your needley,
“The greens constantly avoid the most efficient, sustainable environmentally friendly fuel there is”
don’t you think? You are ever ready to ping the Greens, yet in many cases you haven’t looked into the issue deeply enough before firing off. Slow yourself down a bit and you’ll be surprised at what you find

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: Shunda barunda

Shunda barunda — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:27:10 +0000

“Thanks, XYY. It’s not even close to being the same. I suspected this from Shunda was just as much of a beat-up as the low-flow shower heads one, and it is.”

Actually Toad, I will not legally be allowed to replace my wetback when it wears out cause I live in a town, I am only allowed a “booster” which means reconection to the power supply.
The rules are stupid end of story. The space heater heats a home fine but some idiot decides on a rule that cannot even be measured (no use of the scientific method required here guys) to off set the “SIN” of smoke emmisions. None of it is based on common sense or even a correct understanding of the combustion process, just some politically correct ETS crap.

“Shunda…I’m wondering what you are going to burn when the ETS gets up to full steam and anyone who burns timber has to pay massive taxes. Are you worried??”

You should know better greenfly, but I do agree the ETS is the most stupid piece of legislation to grace these shores in a very long time.
The greens constantly avoid the most efficient, sustainable environmentally friendly fuel there is, cause of “political” reasons. It just reveals the greens have no problem exploiting a lack of understanding of the carbon cycle when it suits them.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: greenfly

greenfly — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 21:20:35 +0000

“I’m guessing that baths will be outlawed eventually”
Not outlawed greengeek, just size-restricted, which won’t be an issue so long as you can touch your knees to your ears. The alternative for do-it-your-selfers will be bricks, deployed in the way they are in sisterns to reduce water use. We’ll look back on these days as golden – good times when we bathed and showered freely before those spoil-sport Greens ruined yet another one of our pleasures.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: greengeek

greengeek — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:53:48 +0000

# samiuela Says:
Of course you don’t want to restrict all taps, because when you run a bath (for example) its all about getting a certain volume of water into the tub as fast as possible, not minimising the flow rate.

I’m guessing that baths will be outlawed eventually. If you are not going to be permitted to use 25 litres of hot water in a 2 minute shower why would you be allowed to use 50 litres having a nice soak in the bath?

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: greengeek

greengeek — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:49:36 +0000

# Shunda barunda Says:
Yes we do and it is heaps cheaper than gas, and cause we burn wood it is completely environmentally sustainable.

Shunda…I’m wondering what you are going to burn when the ETS gets up to full steam and anyone who burns timber has to pay massive taxes. Are you worried??

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)

By: BluePeter

BluePeter — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:16:58 +0000

>>you cant have anything you want. You can adjust things, but there are limits.

In that case, I’ll bring forward the renovations. Or learn some basic plumbing.

You can’t always get what you want, Greens.

Like or Dislike: 0 0 (0)