Comments on: Jury decides that threat of global warming justifies breaking the law http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/ hopping along the corridors of power Fri, 19 Mar 2010 03:08:49 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57535 jh Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:23:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57535 # kiore1 Says: September 15th, 2008 at 7:37 pm I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philsophical issue. A schizophrenic tries to strangle someone because he thinks they are the devil..... # kiore1 Says:
September 15th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philsophical issue.

A schizophrenic tries to strangle someone because he thinks they are the devil…..

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57531 jh Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:56:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57531 I happen to think it is evil of the Catholic Church to ban birth control in overpopulated countries. I happen to think it is evil of the Catholic Church to ban birth control in overpopulated countries.

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]]> By: kiore1 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57530 kiore1 Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:42:49 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57530 Sorry - computer problems. I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philosophical issue. And one that is independent of the jury's verdict. But the issue of whether damage to property was justified on the basis of whether it was preventing further damage is a legal issue. It depends both on the law, and on the evidence concerning global warming. Incidentally, a Christian activist group operation ploughshares used a similar defense after they were charged with criminal damage when they smashed up a warplane. they argued that it is legal to use reasonable force to prevent a crime, the crime being that of genocide. the warplane was to be sold to Suharto so he could bomb or strafe civilians in East Timor. Sorry – computer problems.

I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philosophical issue. And one that is independent of the jury’s verdict. But the issue of whether damage to property was justified on the basis of whether it was preventing further damage is a legal issue. It depends both on the law, and on the evidence concerning global warming.

Incidentally, a Christian activist group operation ploughshares used a similar defense after they were charged with criminal damage when they smashed up a warplane. they argued that it is legal to use reasonable force to prevent a crime, the crime being that of genocide. the warplane was to be sold to Suharto so he could bomb or strafe civilians in East Timor.

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]]> By: kiore1 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57528 kiore1 Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:37:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57528 I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philso I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philso

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]]> By: Mr Dennis http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57514 Mr Dennis Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:00:43 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57514 bjchip: Your post is based on the presupposition that abortion is not killing a human being, ie murder. This is a philosophical issue. If abortion is just something the mother is doing to her own body, then your logic stands. If abortion is truly murder of a defenceless child, then this immediate murder (of thousands of children just in NZ every year) is far worse than the potential for possible deaths down the track due to global warming. bjchip:
Your post is based on the presupposition that abortion is not killing a human being, ie murder. This is a philosophical issue.

If abortion is just something the mother is doing to her own body, then your logic stands.

If abortion is truly murder of a defenceless child, then this immediate murder (of thousands of children just in NZ every year) is far worse than the potential for possible deaths down the track due to global warming.

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57478 bjchip Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:11:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57478 Can you convince the whole jury you were preventing greater damage? In parts of the USA that is the case and in THOSE states access to abortions and contraceptive advice is curtailed drastically. Women have to travel.... they take other measures to control something that is not entirely in their control. Some die in the process. So you takes your chances. There's more to the answer than that however.... The burning of coal in that plant subjects EVERY member of the society, no matter what other choices they make, to the perils of global warming, acid rain and the like. It affects everyone. The presence of the clinic affects only individuals who wish to exercise what we perceive as a right to choose and the children they might choose not to have now and other children they might choose to have later. You can convince very few 12 member juries in most places, to agree that the society as a whole is damaged by the presence of a clinic. respectfully BJ Can you convince the whole jury you were preventing greater damage? In parts of the USA that is the case and in THOSE states access to abortions and contraceptive advice is curtailed drastically. Women have to travel…. they take other measures to control something that is not entirely in their control. Some die in the process. So you takes your chances. There’s more to the answer than that however….

The burning of coal in that plant subjects EVERY member of the society, no matter what other choices they make, to the perils of global warming, acid rain and the like. It affects everyone.

The presence of the clinic affects only individuals who wish to exercise what we perceive as a right to choose and the children they might choose not to have now and other children they might choose to have later.

You can convince very few 12 member juries in most places, to agree that the society as a whole is damaged by the presence of a clinic.

respectfully
BJ

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]]> By: Sam Buchanan http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57472 Sam Buchanan Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:43:54 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57472 "Those who abandon the rule of law through loopholes inspire anarchy. I hope it doesn’t reach here!" Yay for anarchy! Though it's those in power who inspire it, by creating laws and systems that institutionalise injustice. The answer to Mr. Dennis is that society holds collective values, if you live in a society that collectively reviles abortion, they will let you off. If you live in a society that collectively believes climate change is a looming threat and holds industry to account for its actions,. the people above will be let off. “Those who abandon the rule of law through loopholes inspire anarchy. I hope it doesn’t reach here!”

Yay for anarchy! Though it’s those in power who inspire it, by creating laws and systems that institutionalise injustice.

The answer to Mr. Dennis is that society holds collective values, if you live in a society that collectively reviles abortion, they will let you off. If you live in a society that collectively believes climate change is a looming threat and holds industry to account for its actions,. the people above will be let off.

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]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57453 StephenR Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:13:07 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57453 "depending on the personal baggage and values each person brings to the jury room." Er, isn't that meant to be irrelevant? I can believe that one or two might be strongly prejudiced, but i can't believe the whole jury would ignore the instructions from the court on how to handle the evidence. They are given a list of factors to consider when reaching a verdict, so can't imagine them ignoring the list unless we're talking an all-white 1957 Mississippi jury and a black defendant. “depending on the personal baggage and values each person brings to the jury room.”

Er, isn’t that meant to be irrelevant? I can believe that one or two might be strongly prejudiced, but i can’t believe the whole jury would ignore the instructions from the court on how to handle the evidence. They are given a list of factors to consider when reaching a verdict, so can’t imagine them ignoring the list unless we’re talking an all-white 1957 Mississippi jury and a black defendant.

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]]> By: dbuckley http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57449 dbuckley Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:07:54 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57449 The answer, Mr Dennis, is down to the jury. One jury might have you hang, yet another might have you go free, depending on the personal baggage and values each person brings to the jury room. Do you care to roll the dice? The answer, Mr Dennis, is down to the jury. One jury might have you hang, yet another might have you go free, depending on the personal baggage and values each person brings to the jury room.

Do you care to roll the dice?

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]]> By: Mr Dennis http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57445 Mr Dennis Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:02:14 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57445 Were I an anti-abortion activist, and vandalised an abortion clinic, should I be prosecuted? Or should I go free because I believed I was preventing greater damage? Were I an anti-abortion activist, and vandalised an abortion clinic, should I be prosecuted? Or should I go free because I believed I was preventing greater damage?

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]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57412 StephenR Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:27:56 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57412 Certainly a bit of a worry. Also a worry is the price of a paint job in the UK £35,000! Jeez-lousie. Certainly a bit of a worry. Also a worry is the price of a paint job in the UK £35,000! Jeez-lousie.

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]]> By: Strings http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57411 Strings Sun, 14 Sep 2008 21:26:11 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57411 Those who abandon the rule of law through loopholes inspire anarchy. I hope it doesn't reach here! Those who abandon the rule of law through loopholes inspire anarchy. I hope it doesn’t reach here!

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]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57407 StephenR Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:32:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57407 There were a couple of comments on this at hot-topic: <blockquote> Coal plants damage private property (and people, and the rest of the biosphere) much worse than a bit of paint. Who will compensate me for breathing coal emissions, and for the cost of climate change to me and my descendants? Oh, I see, for the coal companies that’s a freebie. How special for them. 21 rata 09.12.08 at 9:06 pm i think the precendent of coal companies disturbing our climate system for profit is pretty unsettling. </blockquote> http://hot-topic.co.nz/here-come-de-judge/ It's very tricky.... There were a couple of comments on this at hot-topic:

Coal plants damage private property (and people, and the rest of the biosphere) much worse than a bit of paint. Who will compensate me for breathing coal emissions, and for the cost of climate change to me and my descendants? Oh, I see, for the coal companies that’s a freebie. How special for them.

21 rata 09.12.08 at 9:06 pm

i think the precendent of coal companies disturbing our climate system for profit is pretty unsettling.

http://hot-topic.co.nz/here-come-de-judge/

It’s very tricky….

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57405 jh Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:30:32 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57405 One News Colmar Brunton Sept 2008 Party Support * National 53.0% (+2.0%) * Labour 35.0% (-2.0%) * Green 5.0% (+1.5%) * NZ First 1.8% (-0.8%) * Maori 1.8% (-1.3%) * United Future 0.0% (-0.7%) * ACT 2.0% (+1.4%) * Progressive 0.0% (nc) "Don't make waves" One News Colmar Brunton Sept 2008
Party Support

* National 53.0% (+2.0%)
* Labour 35.0% (-2.0%)
* Green 5.0% (+1.5%)
* NZ First 1.8% (-0.8%)
* Maori 1.8% (-1.3%)
* United Future 0.0% (-0.7%)
* ACT 2.0% (+1.4%)
* Progressive 0.0% (nc)
“Don’t make waves”

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]]> By: Celia http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57324 Celia Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:35:33 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57324 Private property rights may be important but not enough care is being taken of the global commons - atmosphere, water and biodiversity. People who care for the global commons deserve support too. Private property rights may be important but not enough care is being taken of the global commons – atmosphere, water and biodiversity.

People who care for the global commons deserve support too.

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]]> By: dbuckley http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57323 dbuckley Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:25:03 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57323 Not really a precedent; another bunch got off over a decade ago, something about a plane being damaged, but in the intervening times plenty of folks have been found guilty in similar circumstances. Bottom line: if you can convince the jury, you get to walk. Its roulette with a jury, pretty much like the rest of the legal process... Not really a precedent; another bunch got off over a decade ago, something about a plane being damaged, but in the intervening times plenty of folks have been found guilty in similar circumstances.

Bottom line: if you can convince the jury, you get to walk. Its roulette with a jury, pretty much like the rest of the legal process…

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57320 jh Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:40:29 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57320 "After a weekend of heavy rain, the forecast remains gloomy for the week ahead. The rain will keep on falling in the months and years to come as Britain experiences flooding on an increasingly dramatic scale. By now we all know, or should know, that continuing to build on floodplains is not a very good idea. Unless we begin to design a new generation of buildings on stilts, or learn how to raise land up from the water as the Dutch do, or design new towns along the lines of Venice, then we should abandon all plans to build where waters are likely to rise. Will we? Not a chance. In Britain floodplains are cheap land. We want lots of cheap new housing, ever more supermarkets, major roads, distribution depots and heavy traffic to serve the latest low-cost estates. You can see these homes currently marching their way along the flanks of Ely in Norfolk," http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/sep/09/architecture.flooding “After a weekend of heavy rain, the forecast remains gloomy for the week ahead. The rain will keep on falling in the months and years to come as Britain experiences flooding on an increasingly dramatic scale. By now we all know, or should know, that continuing to build on floodplains is not a very good idea. Unless we begin to design a new generation of buildings on stilts, or learn how to raise land up from the water as the Dutch do, or design new towns along the lines of Venice, then we should abandon all plans to build where waters are likely to rise.

Will we? Not a chance. In Britain floodplains are cheap land. We want lots of cheap new housing, ever more supermarkets, major roads, distribution depots and heavy traffic to serve the latest low-cost estates. You can see these homes currently marching their way along the flanks of Ely in Norfolk,”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2008/sep/09/architecture.floodi ng

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]]> By: ash http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57313 ash Sat, 13 Sep 2008 22:22:51 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57313 Mr. Dennis I'd like to know at which point you draw the line...? For example are not government agencies in the wrong when they change law in order allow them to carry out exploitation of the environment when it is clearly against the will of the people and the benefit of the country/planet? The government is not always holier than thou and I would consider 'breaking the law' so to speak to stand up for actual justice... Think apartheid, Guantanamo Bay, 1080, GE field trials, Ahmed Zaoui, inaction on the environment so on... Our government and governments around the world break international law constantly, particularly humanitarian law - what a joke! Mr. Dennis I’d like to know at which point you draw the line…? For example are not government agencies in the wrong when they change law in order allow them to carry out exploitation of the environment when it is clearly against the will of the people and the benefit of the country/planet? The government is not always holier than thou and I would consider ‘breaking the law’ so to speak to stand up for actual justice… Think apartheid, Guantanamo Bay, 1080, GE field trials, Ahmed Zaoui, inaction on the environment so on…

Our government and governments around the world break international law constantly, particularly humanitarian law – what a joke!

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]]> By: kiore1 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57273 kiore1 Sat, 13 Sep 2008 08:18:30 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57273 Actually the point is that they did not cause criminal damage. A jury of their peers found they were not guilty of causing criminal damage. So it is inaccurate, and indeed libelous to say they did cause criminal damage. And the not guilty verdict was nothing to do with the justice of their cause; they were found not guilty because it was considered they were preventing greater damage, also to private property. Actually the point is that they did not cause criminal damage. A jury of their peers found they were not guilty of causing criminal damage. So it is inaccurate, and indeed libelous to say they did cause criminal damage.

And the not guilty verdict was nothing to do with the justice of their cause; they were found not guilty because it was considered they were preventing greater damage, also to private property.

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]]> By: Mr Dennis http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57258 Mr Dennis Sat, 13 Sep 2008 05:17:14 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57258 You're right frog, sorry. You’re right frog, sorry.

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