Comments on: Jury decides that threat of global warming justifies breaking the law http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/ hopping along the corridors of power Fri, 09 Jan 2009 21:59:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57535 jh Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:23:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57535 # kiore1 Says: September 15th, 2008 at 7:37 pm I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philsophical issue. A schizophrenic tries to strangle someone because he thinks they are the devil..... # kiore1 Says:
September 15th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philsophical issue.

A schizophrenic tries to strangle someone because he thinks they are the devil…..

]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57531 jh Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:56:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57531 I happen to think it is evil of the Catholic Church to ban birth control in overpopulated countries. I happen to think it is evil of the Catholic Church to ban birth control in overpopulated countries.

]]> By: kiore1 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57530 kiore1 Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:42:49 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57530 Sorry - computer problems. I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philosophical issue. And one that is independent of the jury's verdict. But the issue of whether damage to property was justified on the basis of whether it was preventing further damage is a legal issue. It depends both on the law, and on the evidence concerning global warming. Incidentally, a Christian activist group operation ploughshares used a similar defense after they were charged with criminal damage when they smashed up a warplane. they argued that it is legal to use reasonable force to prevent a crime, the crime being that of genocide. the warplane was to be sold to Suharto so he could bomb or strafe civilians in East Timor. Sorry - computer problems.

I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philosophical issue. And one that is independent of the jury’s verdict. But the issue of whether damage to property was justified on the basis of whether it was preventing further damage is a legal issue. It depends both on the law, and on the evidence concerning global warming.

Incidentally, a Christian activist group operation ploughshares used a similar defense after they were charged with criminal damage when they smashed up a warplane. they argued that it is legal to use reasonable force to prevent a crime, the crime being that of genocide. the warplane was to be sold to Suharto so he could bomb or strafe civilians in East Timor.

]]> By: kiore1 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57528 kiore1 Mon, 15 Sep 2008 07:37:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57528 I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philso I agree that the rightness of destroying an abortion clinic (or a vivisection laboratory) is a philso

]]> By: Mr Dennis http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57514 Mr Dennis Mon, 15 Sep 2008 06:00:43 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57514 bjchip: Your post is based on the presupposition that abortion is not killing a human being, ie murder. This is a philosophical issue. If abortion is just something the mother is doing to her own body, then your logic stands. If abortion is truly murder of a defenceless child, then this immediate murder (of thousands of children just in NZ every year) is far worse than the potential for possible deaths down the track due to global warming. bjchip:
Your post is based on the presupposition that abortion is not killing a human being, ie murder. This is a philosophical issue.

If abortion is just something the mother is doing to her own body, then your logic stands.

If abortion is truly murder of a defenceless child, then this immediate murder (of thousands of children just in NZ every year) is far worse than the potential for possible deaths down the track due to global warming.

]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57478 bjchip Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:11:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57478 Can you convince the whole jury you were preventing greater damage? In parts of the USA that is the case and in THOSE states access to abortions and contraceptive advice is curtailed drastically. Women have to travel.... they take other measures to control something that is not entirely in their control. Some die in the process. So you takes your chances. There's more to the answer than that however.... The burning of coal in that plant subjects EVERY member of the society, no matter what other choices they make, to the perils of global warming, acid rain and the like. It affects everyone. The presence of the clinic affects only individuals who wish to exercise what we perceive as a right to choose and the children they might choose not to have now and other children they might choose to have later. You can convince very few 12 member juries in most places, to agree that the society as a whole is damaged by the presence of a clinic. respectfully BJ Can you convince the whole jury you were preventing greater damage? In parts of the USA that is the case and in THOSE states access to abortions and contraceptive advice is curtailed drastically. Women have to travel…. they take other measures to control something that is not entirely in their control. Some die in the process. So you takes your chances. There’s more to the answer than that however….

The burning of coal in that plant subjects EVERY member of the society, no matter what other choices they make, to the perils of global warming, acid rain and the like. It affects everyone.

The presence of the clinic affects only individuals who wish to exercise what we perceive as a right to choose and the children they might choose not to have now and other children they might choose to have later.

You can convince very few 12 member juries in most places, to agree that the society as a whole is damaged by the presence of a clinic.

respectfully
BJ

]]> By: Sam Buchanan http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57472 Sam Buchanan Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:43:54 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57472 "Those who abandon the rule of law through loopholes inspire anarchy. I hope it doesn’t reach here!" Yay for anarchy! Though it's those in power who inspire it, by creating laws and systems that institutionalise injustice. The answer to Mr. Dennis is that society holds collective values, if you live in a society that collectively reviles abortion, they will let you off. If you live in a society that collectively believes climate change is a looming threat and holds industry to account for its actions,. the people above will be let off. “Those who abandon the rule of law through loopholes inspire anarchy. I hope it doesn’t reach here!”

Yay for anarchy! Though it’s those in power who inspire it, by creating laws and systems that institutionalise injustice.

The answer to Mr. Dennis is that society holds collective values, if you live in a society that collectively reviles abortion, they will let you off. If you live in a society that collectively believes climate change is a looming threat and holds industry to account for its actions,. the people above will be let off.

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57453 StephenR Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:13:07 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57453 "depending on the personal baggage and values each person brings to the jury room." Er, isn't that meant to be irrelevant? I can believe that one or two might be strongly prejudiced, but i can't believe the whole jury would ignore the instructions from the court on how to handle the evidence. They are given a list of factors to consider when reaching a verdict, so can't imagine them ignoring the list unless we're talking an all-white 1957 Mississippi jury and a black defendant. “depending on the personal baggage and values each person brings to the jury room.”

Er, isn’t that meant to be irrelevant? I can believe that one or two might be strongly prejudiced, but i can’t believe the whole jury would ignore the instructions from the court on how to handle the evidence. They are given a list of factors to consider when reaching a verdict, so can’t imagine them ignoring the list unless we’re talking an all-white 1957 Mississippi jury and a black defendant.

]]> By: dbuckley http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57449 dbuckley Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:07:54 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57449 The answer, Mr Dennis, is down to the jury. One jury might have you hang, yet another might have you go free, depending on the personal baggage and values each person brings to the jury room. Do you care to roll the dice? The answer, Mr Dennis, is down to the jury. One jury might have you hang, yet another might have you go free, depending on the personal baggage and values each person brings to the jury room.

Do you care to roll the dice?

]]> By: Mr Dennis http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57445 Mr Dennis Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:02:14 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/13/jury-decides-that-threat-of-global-warming-justifies-breaking-the-law/#comment-57445 Were I an anti-abortion activist, and vandalised an abortion clinic, should I be prosecuted? Or should I go free because I believed I was preventing greater damage? Were I an anti-abortion activist, and vandalised an abortion clinic, should I be prosecuted? Or should I go free because I believed I was preventing greater damage?

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