Comments on: Did the Nats leave the Maori Party at the altar? http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/ hopping along the corridors of power Sun, 21 Mar 2010 05:15:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57403 jh Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:27:05 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57403 As far as both parties go, who represents Maori? Wise old kaumatua or radical young separatists (or wise young and radical old etc, etc). A good exercise though. As far as both parties go, who represents Maori? Wise old kaumatua or radical young separatists (or wise young and radical old etc, etc). A good exercise though.

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]]> By: Sapient http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57394 Sapient Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:48:10 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57394 BJ, By agreement I was refering to the need for a new document and a constitutional arrangement aceptable to both parties. With your proposal maori have a vote of significantly higher value to that of non-maori; any policy which could be seen to effect maori in a way that is not liked by the chamber could be vetoed, any government, even with one hundered percent support of the non-maori population could have their reforms vetoed. A hung house is not good, esspecially when it is hung by an ethnic group. less money for the dole; maori have a greater percentage on the dole; poor maori; VETO. harsher sentences; more maori as a percentage in prison; VETO. No harvisting a near extinct species of animal; VETO. anti bludging regulations; VETO. any budget proposal without significant money given to tribes; VETO. or even better; we dont like the governing party; VETO VETO VETO. you get the point? as an american I would of thought you would understand. not like apatheid? think of the maori as the whites and non-maori as the africans, then you may see what I mean. BJ,
By agreement I was refering to the need for a new document and a constitutional arrangement aceptable to both parties.
With your proposal maori have a vote of significantly higher value to that of non-maori; any policy which could be seen to effect maori in a way that is not liked by the chamber could be vetoed, any government, even with one hundered percent support of the non-maori population could have their reforms vetoed. A hung house is not good, esspecially when it is hung by an ethnic group.
less money for the dole; maori have a greater percentage on the dole; poor maori; VETO.
harsher sentences; more maori as a percentage in prison; VETO.
No harvisting a near extinct species of animal; VETO.
anti bludging regulations; VETO.
any budget proposal without significant money given to tribes; VETO.
or even better; we dont like the governing party; VETO VETO VETO.
you get the point? as an american I would of thought you would understand.
not like apatheid? think of the maori as the whites and non-maori as the africans, then you may see what I mean.

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57393 bjchip Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:16:18 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57393 I don't think we're in agreement Sapient... I reckon that the arrangements you offer will run into problems... "If we grant enough land back to the tribes" is a way of expressing how those problems will surface.... but the truth is that I don't mind anything that works. I don't object to trying your way if it can be made to work... to that extent we agree... I just don't think it can. The problem for me is that the separation is there whether it is explicit in the separate chamber or explicit in the assignment of resource management to the local Iwi. However it is done it denies non-Iwi any influence or responsibility in some domain. By making it explicit in the chamber it makes the division clear but also limits its effects to the government itself, not to the man on the street. My rights and the rights of the maori at the shoreline or in the forests are exactly the same. All citizens get the the same laws, have the same rights and the laws are set by maori and pakeha together. The weakness in my proposal is not that it would resemble apartheid but that government could be completely paralyzed. I can think of a couple of ways around that. The complications that set in as I do so are the reason I'd expect to require a more rather than less complete document to start with. respectfully BJ It has nothing to do with apartheid africa... jehosophat man... how in the hell can you say that? No law can be passed without the assent of both houses. That means NO law can be passed without the consent of the maori people. The maori aren't restricted to where they can reside. They are not stripped of their citizenship. The solution isn't imposed by a colonial power or unilaterally dictated by someone else. How exactly does this equate to apartheid? This is a seriously absurd assertion. I don’t think we’re in agreement Sapient… I reckon that the arrangements you offer will run into problems… “If we grant enough land back to the tribes” is a way of expressing how those problems will surface…. but the truth is that I don’t mind anything that works. I don’t object to trying your way if it can be made to work… to that extent we agree… I just don’t think it can.

The problem for me is that the separation is there whether it is explicit in the separate chamber or explicit in the assignment of resource management to the local Iwi. However it is done it denies non-Iwi any influence or responsibility in some domain. By making it explicit in the chamber it makes the division clear but also limits its effects to the government itself, not to the man on the street. My rights and the rights of the maori at the shoreline or in the forests are exactly the same. All citizens get the the same laws, have the same rights and the laws are set by maori and pakeha together.

The weakness in my proposal is not that it would resemble apartheid but that government could be completely paralyzed. I can think of a couple of ways around that. The complications that set in as I do so are the reason I’d expect to require a more rather than less complete document to start with.

respectfully
BJ

It has nothing to do with apartheid africa… jehosophat man… how in the hell can you say that? No law can be passed without the assent of both houses. That means NO law can be passed without the consent of the maori people. The maori aren’t restricted to where they can reside. They are not stripped of their citizenship. The solution isn’t imposed by a colonial power or unilaterally dictated by someone else. How exactly does this equate to apartheid? This is a seriously absurd assertion.

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]]> By: Sapient http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57389 Sapient Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:44:23 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57389 BJ, So we are in agreement? except for the means through which to impliment such measures? I find the concept of a separate chamber to be out of the question, it is almost exactly the same arrangement as apartheid africa and would likley have no better results. That and it is an extreme level of bigotry to tolerate in law. If we grant enough land back to the tribes then they should be able to support their own participation easily enough. At any rate, we should work towards an acceptable compromise; and one of the wonderful things about forums is their ability to brng togehter ideas. BJ,
So we are in agreement? except for the means through which to impliment such measures?
I find the concept of a separate chamber to be out of the question, it is almost exactly the same arrangement as apartheid africa and would likley have no better results. That and it is an extreme level of bigotry to tolerate in law.
If we grant enough land back to the tribes then they should be able to support their own participation easily enough. At any rate, we should work towards an acceptable compromise; and one of the wonderful things about forums is their ability to brng togehter ideas.

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]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57387 bjchip Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:36:30 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57387 I don't care particularly if it is one document or many... the problem is that the treaty which allows us to bind together as one nation also splits us asunder into two entities sharing that nation. It does so with words that are so difficult to understand accurately that after a century and more of muddling along we still find ourselves arguing about what they mean. This is not a suitable document to be underpin the nation and the "adaptations" we have managed in order to accommodate it, are not easy. We are still arguing about the foreshore and seabed, there are maori who feel aggrieved because they are left out in some manner. It is a mess. It has been a mess for a long long time. Resolving it means writing down some specific arrangement of government that replaces the treaty and honours it at the same time. The arrangement has to be equitable in terms of the treaty and agreed by both parties and if you don't like having to call it a constitution or making it a complete set of rules, feel free to call it something else and it needn't replace everything. The division into two parliaments could certainly leave most of the established rules intact. The maori parliament could adopt whatever rules it likes... including starting out with the same rules we currently use, just with a different electorate. Laws would require assent from both, I just don't think that anyone is going to buy into an incomplete rewrite. The original document is vague and was dreadfully abused. I suspect that if I were part of a tribe I'd be EXTREMELY unlikely to sign up for any replacement that didn't spell out rights and responsibilities in detail. Maybe Sapient has the right idea, nibbling off certain bits of government responsibilities and handing them to the tribes... but that yields some real problems in terms of providing resources and money to perform those functions. Good Luck to us, we'll need it. respectfully BJ I don’t care particularly if it is one document or many… the problem is that the treaty which allows us to bind together as one nation also splits us asunder into two entities sharing that nation.

It does so with words that are so difficult to understand accurately that after a century and more of muddling along we still find ourselves arguing about what they mean. This is not a suitable document to be underpin the nation and the “adaptations” we have managed in order to accommodate it, are not easy. We are still arguing about the foreshore and seabed, there are maori who feel aggrieved because they are left out in some manner. It is a mess. It has been a mess for a long long time.

Resolving it means writing down some specific arrangement of government that replaces the treaty and honours it at the same time. The arrangement has to be equitable in terms of the treaty and agreed by both parties and if you don’t like having to call it a constitution or making it a complete set of rules, feel free to call it something else and it needn’t replace everything. The division into two parliaments could certainly leave most of the established rules intact. The maori parliament could adopt whatever rules it likes… including starting out with the same rules we currently use, just with a different electorate. Laws would require assent from both,

I just don’t think that anyone is going to buy into an incomplete rewrite.

The original document is vague and was dreadfully abused. I suspect that if I were part of a tribe I’d be EXTREMELY unlikely to sign up for any replacement that didn’t spell out rights and responsibilities in detail.

Maybe Sapient has the right idea, nibbling off certain bits of government responsibilities and handing them to the tribes… but that yields some real problems in terms of providing resources and money to perform those functions.

Good Luck to us, we’ll need it.
respectfully
BJ

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]]> By: Sapient http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57386 Sapient Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:36:06 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57386 "Tangata whenua" - I like the imposistion there; notice it is "tangata whenua" - people of the land - not land of the people. An interesting concept that our society would do well to endorse, though it also has interesting implications for the current state of affairs. “Tangata whenua” – I like the imposistion there; notice it is “tangata whenua” – people of the land – not land of the people. An interesting concept that our society would do well to endorse, though it also has interesting implications for the current state of affairs.

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57384 jh Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:33:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57384 Big Bro might have other interests. We have a wide choice as to what we can do these days. I'm studying Pongolian verbs. Big Bro might have other interests. We have a wide choice as to what we can do these days. I’m studying Pongolian verbs.

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]]> By: Valis http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57380 Valis Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:20:04 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57380 ““Or we could just stick with tangata whenuaâ€?

We might if I had any idea what those words mean.

I suspect it is Maori for apartheid.”

How typical.

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57379 jh Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:00:43 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57379 Cheer up Big Bro "In the context of tribal descent and ownership of land, tangata whenua are the people who descend from the first people to settle the land of the district, whereas the actual mana may reside with later arrivals." Cheer up Big Bro

“In the context of tribal descent and ownership of land, tangata whenua are the people who descend from the first people to settle the land of the district, whereas the actual mana may reside with later arrivals.”

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]]> By: greenfly http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57374 greenfly Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:33:37 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57374 big bro - you say that you think 'tangata whenua' is Maori for aparthied. Bet none of your 'tanned friends or family' would back you on that one. big bro – you say that you think ‘tangata whenua’ is Maori for aparthied.
Bet none of your ‘tanned friends or family’ would back you on that one.

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]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57373 big bro Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:23:07 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57373 "do a Maori language course" Why? "hang out with some Maori for a while" The fact that you assume that I do not "hang out" with Maori says more about you than you might like to admit. Do you "hang out" with Maori just to show that you are painfully PC? I don't need to go out and find Maori to "hang out" with Greenfly, I have my friends and family, some of them might even be Maori (I did wonder why their skin is a little more tanned than mine) its not an issue that comes up with us as the first and only consideration we have is love and respect for each other. “do a Maori language course”

Why?

“hang out with some Maori for a while”

The fact that you assume that I do not “hang out” with Maori says more about you than you might like to admit.
Do you “hang out” with Maori just to show that you are painfully PC?

I don’t need to go out and find Maori to “hang out” with Greenfly, I have my friends and family, some of them might even be Maori (I did wonder why their skin is a little more tanned than mine) its not an issue that comes up with us as the first and only consideration we have is love and respect for each other.

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]]> By: greenfly http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57371 greenfly Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:14:27 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57371 big bro - do a Maori language course, hang out with some Maori for a while, engage your brain then you won't make a takata pouraki of yourself with statements like that. Really can't see how you can rabbit on about this issue when you are missing all of the subtleties and detail counts here. big bro – do a Maori language course, hang out with some Maori for a while, engage your brain then you won’t make a takata pouraki of yourself with statements like that. Really can’t see how you can rabbit on about this issue when you are missing all of the subtleties and detail counts here.

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]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57368 big bro Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:01:05 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57368 "Or we could just stick with tangata whenua" We might if I had any idea what those words mean. I suspect it is Maori for apartheid. “Or we could just stick with tangata whenua”

We might if I had any idea what those words mean.

I suspect it is Maori for apartheid.

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]]> By: Valis http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57367 Valis Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:55:53 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57367 "All born New Zealanders are indigenous." Sure samiam, let's say "first peoples" then since you're feeling pedantic. Or we could just stick with tangata whenua. “All born New Zealanders are indigenous.”

Sure samiam, let’s say “first peoples” then since you’re feeling pedantic. Or we could just stick with tangata whenua.

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]]> By: eredwen http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57365 eredwen Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:44:29 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57365 big bro (et al) A lot of people making a flurry of assumptions here! As far as "OUR" Queen is concerned ... with patrilinial ancestry, no effective contraception, male dominated society and the mores of the times, the chance that "our Queen's" actual ancestral line (and thus inheritance) is what it is said to be is VERY doubtful! (However, in contrast, Polynesian ancestry is Matrilinial and therefore beyond dispute in most cases ... not that that matters in this discussion). Incidentally: (not that I care one way or the other!) My personal preference would be for AotearoaNZ to wait (out of politeness?) until the end of Queen Elizabeth II's reign and then declare Aotearoa NZ a Republic. (We could remain within the Commonwealth.) I'll answer the other posts/arguments later ... big bro (et al)

A lot of people making a flurry of assumptions here!

As far as “OUR” Queen is concerned … with patrilinial ancestry, no effective contraception, male dominated society and the mores of the times, the chance that “our Queen’s” actual ancestral line (and thus inheritance) is what it is said to be is VERY doubtful!

(However, in contrast, Polynesian ancestry is Matrilinial and therefore beyond dispute in most cases … not that that matters in this discussion).

Incidentally: (not that I care one way or the other!) My personal preference would be for AotearoaNZ to wait (out of politeness?) until the end of Queen Elizabeth II’s reign and then declare Aotearoa NZ a Republic. (We could remain within the Commonwealth.)

I’ll answer the other posts/arguments later …

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]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57362 big bro Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:07:39 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57362 Samian I agree with your comment, however what excuse will our fellow "indigenous" Kiwi's come up with when we do end up classifying all Kiwi as indigenous? Samian

I agree with your comment, however what excuse will our fellow “indigenous” Kiwi’s come up with when we do end up classifying all Kiwi as indigenous?

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]]> By: samiam http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57361 samiam Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:02:54 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57361 All born New Zealanders are indigenous. All born New Zealanders are indigenous.

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]]> By: Valis http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57360 Valis Sun, 14 Sep 2008 07:59:02 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57360 "Eredwen supports ancestral privilege when it comes to Maori yet she is also a staunch opponent of OUR Queen. The interesting thing is that much of what she also says is racist, however it seems that racist comments are fine as long as they support the treaty gravy train and apartheid politics." Complete hyperbole. Not many people could conflate monarchy with indigenous rights, but we know big bro is unusually talented. “Eredwen supports ancestral privilege when it comes to Maori yet she is also a staunch opponent of OUR Queen.
The interesting thing is that much of what she also says is racist, however it seems that racist comments are fine as long as they support the treaty gravy train and apartheid politics.”

Complete hyperbole. Not many people could conflate monarchy with indigenous rights, but we know big bro is unusually talented.

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]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57355 big bro Sun, 14 Sep 2008 07:35:34 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57355 both both

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]]> By: kahikatea http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57354 kahikatea Sun, 14 Sep 2008 07:31:12 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/09/11/did-the-nats-leave-the-maori-party-at-the-altar/#comment-57354 big bro Says:
September 14th, 2008 at 7:17 pm

> I love the way that Green politics are so “malleable�

> Eredwen supports ancestral privilege when it comes to Maori yet she is also a staunch opponent of OUR Queen.

Of course you can be opposed to Maori having assets that they would have inherited from their ancestors if the assets hadn’t been confiscated, but then you would logically also have to oppose all inherited wealth in pakeha hands.

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