NZ Green Party
Minor tinkering

The Minister of Climate Change, David Parker notes this afternoon:

“The difference between Labour and National that is clear to everyone is that Labour has a track record on climate change you can trust, whereas National has a track record of denial, obstruction, and delay.”

Yup, here’s a graph of Labour’s track record you can trust.  You can trust that the numbers will keep rising.

You might need to look to other parties for a clear difference Minister.

39 thoughts on “Minor tinkering

  1. Why do you keep backing them? You backed them through the EFA which has been a disaster, you backed them on the ETS and you are propping them and Winston up.

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  2. I would be very interested to see what the graph would look like if the Y axis showed a per capita figure.

    I suspect it would look a little better. Even a little is something.

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  3. Green votes are not needed to keep the govt in power. The Greens vote with the govt on legislation that furthers their policy goals. They do not do deals between issues so have only voted for bills they wanted to pass. So they’re neither “backing them” nor “propping them and Winston up”.

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  4. Colin James should attend a BlueGreen conference (as I did, twice) then he wouldn’t make statements like that one! Put the decision making power in the hands of the hunting fraternity- give us a break!

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  5. Valis Says:
    The Greens vote with the govt on legislation that furthers their policy goals. They do not do deals between issues so have only voted for bills they wanted to pass. So they’re neither “backing them? nor “propping them and Winston up?.

    If that’s true then why did they vote for the ETS.

    The Greens are on record as saying that the ETS was a step in the right direction, and that it was better than nothing, but they did NOT say that it was in line with their policy.

    They would have preferred to be MUCH tougher.

    I’m getting tired of the implications that the Greens have integrity.

    Rob Donald would be disgusted with the Greens efforts to pass the ETS under urgency.

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  6. greengeek – your claim to know what Rod (as we called him) Donald would feel is kinda silly, given that you can’t even recall his name.

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  7. greenfly,

    no doubt it makes you feel big spotting a typo. Well done.

    Re-read the posts you’ve made over the last few weeks and you’ll see precious little in the way of realistic, adult assessment.

    Ask some real Greens, and you’ll see that my assessment of Rod’s feelings about passing important legislation under urgency is correct.

    Green issues are far more important than the childish, warm-fuzzy approach that comes through from party members.

    Spend a bit more time trying to mount reasoned, adult arguments and you may have more success swaying the other 95% of the electorate toward your beliefs.

    By now the Green Party (if it was really keen on changing the world for the better) would be dragging in upwards of 10% of the vote.

    In reality, there is a group of you who actually feel smug that your popularity is only 5%. I think that somehow that makes you feel smug that you are “part of an elite”.

    If you really care about the environment attack the argument, not the spelling.

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  8. Yeah, enough with the “Rod Donald would never have done XYZ” already.

    It’s a right wing même that originated with the electoral finance bill. It comes exclusively from people who never sat with him in meetings, had decent conversations with him, or knew the guy. I can’t say I had a huge amount to do with him, but I talked with him enough to know that the political positions being ascribed to him have no basis in reality.

    They like doing it because Rod’s dead, and can’t answer back to their claims.

    Oh and BluePeter – the Greens voted for no climate bills behind that arrow. The Government refused to put anything up. Come back in a couple of years time and you’ll be able to criticise or praise.

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  9. The latest poll has us on 8% so I guess we are not far off your ideal, greengeek. It wasn’t your spelling that caught my eye, it was your presumption to know the thoughts of someone else. Present your own and you’ll reap worthwhile responses. You speak, in this last post of yours, on behalf of ‘real greens’ as well as ‘a group that feels smug and feels that they are part of an elite’. Perhaps if you were to leave those parties (real or imagined) to speak for themselves and instead, put your own views foward, you comments would have some value. I did enjoy your slurs (childish, smug etc.)

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  10. greenfly Says:
    Perhaps if you were to …. put your own views foward, you comments would have some value. I did enjoy your slurs (childish, smug etc.)

    Greenfly…have a read of your comments on this post and take your own advice :-)

    8% ??

    Chuckle.

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  11. As an aside geengeek, I spent some time in the company of Rod Donald around the time of the past two elections, ferrying him around our district, accompanying him on his media events and meeting people on the street, and to me, your view of his position seems uninformed.

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  12. greenfly, the http://curiablog.wordpress.com/ that jh refers to is a “poll of all polls” done by David Farrar’s (of Kiwiblog) polling company.

    I haven’t bothered to investigate their methodology. But given the Greens copped a couple of low polls in the last month, the Curiablog result is probably not far off the mark, at the time it was done.

    That is until the latest Roy Morgan poll putting the Greens at 8%, which I have blogged about here.

    Hey, let’s get Mojo Mathers into Parliament.

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  13. Thanks Toad. I watch Farrar’s conglomerate, along with individual polls. I thought the Roy Morgan poll was fair. :-)

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  14. greenfly Says:
    September 4th, 2008 at 9:54 pm

    > Thanks Toad. I watch Farrar’s conglomerate, along with individual polls. I thought the Roy Morgan poll was fair.

    I would like to think so, but the Greens consistently get higher percentages on the Morgan poll than on other ones. I suspect the TV3 ones are actually the most reliable.

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  15. # greenfly Says:
    September 4th, 2008 at 9:49 pm

    Did you get a chance to check out the Morgan poll, jh?
    …………
    Yes my reply is in moderation.

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  16. kahikatea – none-the-less, I enjoy the encouragement of the Roy Morgan figures. It shows the direction we are headed and projects a successful image. I do think though, that 8% is not going to be the final score for us. I expect that we will sit higher than that ‘on the day’ :-)

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  17. greengeek,

    I have just picked up on this interchange about what Rod Donald “would”, or “would not” have said.

    Please remember two things:

    1. Rod’s family are still alive.

    2. Many Greens knew Rod well … some of us for a very long time.

    (I met Rod when he was a 16 year old. I worked with him on various projects over the years. I live in his former electorate.)

    Please leave Rod’s memory out of this.

    The Green Party goes on. It was NEVER dependent upon one person.

    eredwen

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  18. >>Oh and BluePeter – the Greens voted for no climate bills behind that arrow. The Government refused to put anything up. Come back in a couple of years time and you’ll be able to criticise or praise.

    Nine years support. Nothing to show for it.

    Oh, an anti-smacking bill.

    Wonder what would happen if NZ had an environmental party?

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  19. Looks like my reply to “Greenfly” was rejected because I used the big fruit with the black seeds metaphor and wondered why a party calling itself “Green” gets so many entrys here:
    http://tinyurl.com/3729jj

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  20. BP and other “visitors here”,

    I’m mystified …

    If you really believe that Green Party is so ineffectual, how come you spend so much time on frogblog ?

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  21. I don’t see much point debating with people who already agree with me. I’d rather understand the mindset of those on the opposite side.

    If you surround yourself with people who share your views, you don’t learn much.

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  22. greengeek quotes me:

    Valis Says:
    The Greens vote with the govt on legislation that furthers their policy goals. They do not do deals between issues so have only voted for bills they wanted to pass. So they’re neither “backing them? nor “propping them and Winston up?.

    And then said:

    “If that’s true then why did they vote for the ETS.

    The Greens are on record as saying that the ETS was a step in the right direction, and that it was better than nothing, but they did NOT say that it was in line with their policy.

    They would have preferred to be MUCH tougher.

    I’m getting tired of the implications that the Greens have integrity.

    Rob Donald would be disgusted with the Greens efforts to pass the ETS under urgency.”

    Yes, much tougher action is desired, but a step in the right direction *is* furthering policy goals. Show me where the Greens ever said they were voting against their own policy.

    And the ETS hasn’t been in urgency and isn’t planned to be.

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  23. # eredwen Says:

    BP and other “visitors here?,

    I’m mystified …

    If you really believe that Green Party is so ineffectual, how come you spend so much time on frogblog ?
    ……………….
    Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth Eredwen.

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  24. As I’ve said elsewhere today, ignore Roy Morgan. It’s about as reliable as a primary school science project.

    Greens could not possibly withdraw support from ETS which improves current situation, albeit weakly. To improve still further: PARTY VOTE GREEN.

    No-one else can represent progressive enviornment policy. Well, anyone could, but no-one else does, or even appears interested.

    But: When are Greens going to start talking about economics? What is the Green policy on shifting the tax basis from income to resource consumption?

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  25. Green policy is to shift tax from income to waste and polution. Don’t know about resource consumption, though the two are directly related.

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  26. # Valis Says:
    September 5th, 2008 at 2:41 pm

    > Green policy is to shift tax from income to waste and polution. Don’t know about resource consumption, though the two are directly related.

    In principle, Green policy is to shift tax from income to waste and pollution, while maintaining some income tax so that the gap between rich and poor is not too big, because the market cannot allocate resources efficiently if the gap between rich and poor is too big.

    The Green Party intends to establish an Ecological Tax Reform commission to investigate how best to do this in detail, because developing a whole new tax system based primarily on taxing waste and pollution is a very complex task, and a political party that claimed it could work out all the details itself would be lying.

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  27. eredwen Says:

    The Green Party goes on. It was NEVER dependent upon one person.

    Eredwen,

    if you find it hard to accept my criticism of the attitudinal changes that have occurred within the Greens, perhaps you should remove these links from the Greens archives:

    http://www.greens.org.nz/node/15621

    http://www.greens.org.nz/node/11771

    To introduce/support controversial legislation in the dying moments of a parliamentary term is unethical. More time should be allowed for the public to digest and comment on the ETS. They won’t like it when they begin to understand it.

    Getting back to the graph above, if you re-graph it taking into account the per-capita figure you can see that the CO2 use per person (in NZ) is tapering off, and approaching 20 tons per person asymptotically. If it continues this pattern there is actually hope for the human race.

    No point rushing things so fast that families face ruination.

    If you try too hard to avoid “minor tinkering” you (and the ETS) will simply inflict the same sort of “final solution” pain that Rogernomics gave us.

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  28. “To introduce/support controversial legislation in the dying moments of a parliamentary term is unethical. More time should be allowed for the public to digest and comment on the ETS. They won’t like it when they begin to understand it.”

    You should know its not healthy to listen to Nats propaganda greengeek. The ETS was introduced last December after several years in development. It spent more time than usual at select committee, as it should. Due to delays the PM brought on herself by deferring agriculture longer than planned, it is only being passed now, but no part of it is going through under urgency.

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