In my comment on the antagonism between Winston Peters and the Fourth Estate, I indicated that the conflict centred around Peters personal attributes rather than his politics. It has now become apparent that is not the case, and that the political elements in the conflict, in particular New Zealand’s political and economic relations with Australia, underlie the savage media campaign being waged against Peters and the New Zealand First party. See the new comment at http://www.republican.co.nz

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Mark, having been a prisoner of the regime, I think I know something about the desire for freedom, which I shared with all my fellow inmates in Mt Eden prison; those who had been convicted of murder, rape, burglary and fraud as well as those of us who had been imprisoned for refusing to serve in the regime’s military forces. Everyone wants to be free, but freedom should not be the be-all and end-all of existence. In the long run it is better to worry about one’s moral duty than to fret over one’s freedoms.

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Geoff is right – some moral leadership needed.

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greenfly…I was commenting that Mark Hubbard seemed to be selfishly expressing one end of a spectrum when he said ” the Green dream is a bit of a nightmare for those of us who value freedom, satisfaction in a life well lived, and prosperity”

I tried to make the point in my comment, that the Green party takes the opposite end of the spectrum..ie that our great grandchildrens needs are MORE important than ours.

I, instead, take a middle view, that we need to be cognisant of our great grandchildrens’ needs, but that we should not let our own needs be destroyed by trying to save EVERYTHING for future generations.

The ets WILL put at risk the everyday fabric of our lives.

Those who hated Rogernomics need to open their eyes and see how the ETS has the potential to place our very land and property rights in the hands of overseas interests.

Do you want your future grandchildren to be able to play on the lawn of the family home? Or will it be ok by you if they get to make weekend visits to the MacDonalds playground, and spend the rest of the week in an apartment?

I know that the Greens would have preferred to vote against the ETS, and I am sad that they voted FOR it, on the basis that it kept them in with Labour, and was a foot in the door toward better legislation.

Sadly, the Green party so misunderstands what the ETS will do, that they will never be forgiven for what it does to NZ.

Luckily for the truly green-minded individuals who care about what type of NZ they leave to their children, the National party will probably undo the ETS harm that the Green party have contributed to.

It is funny you should label me a “wanter”. All I really want is peace on earth, and adequate solar power for everybody. Oh, and a faster electric bike, and separate cycle roads.

Oh yes, I also want a government that preserves huge public areas for the homeless who have no chance of affording homes. And new laws permitting trailer parks like they have in the US (where else will I be able to afford when I am old?).

And new laws making it possible for our future generations to build themselves houses like our pioneers did…basic, uninsulated, cheap constructions that kept them housed till they could afford something better. Where is the sense in forcing young families to pay for houses that cost $400,000??

There just seem to be too many people pushing the “lets aim for perfection” barrow, instead of “evolving” society slowly towards a better place.

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greengeek – why is it that your line’
“OUR needs are as important as our great grandchildrens’ needs”
seems so petulant?
A sensitive observer of grandfatherly and more especially, grandmotherly behaviour knows that sacrifice is part and parcel of maturity and indeed one of its pleasures. I’m not sure whether you are differentiating between needs and wants but I’m getting the impression that you are a wanter.

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cheers shunda – I’ll check the office email in the morning.

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Greenfly said
oops shunda – office@sces.org.nz

thanks greenfly, I have sent you an email.

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Geoff, okay, i’m not surprised. There are factors like law & order and corruption (are they by any chance the fundamental problems you refer to?) which are nominally independent of economic arrangements which are quite important to what you’re talking about. If they were optimal i.e. Russia was calm and clean, I think their situation would be somewhat different. Oh for an experimental country!

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Mark Hubbard Says: … I’ve obtained enough from posting to form what will do as my view on the Greens, which is that the Green dream is a bit of a nightmare for those of us who value freedom, satisfaction in a life well lived, and prosperity – or at the very least keeping a little of your own money, or even enough to make life seem something approaching worthwhile.

I’d like to wish you all luck in the upcoming election …

Mark…I agree with you on the “prosperity” comment, but not on the apparent level of selfishness embodied by the comment about “satisfaction in a life well lived”.

There are generations coming after you, and therefore some portion of the green message will benefit them, so needs to be balanced against the realities that the current “Green” party forgets: ie that OUR needs are as important as our great grandchildrens’ needs.

It is about balance.

I’m finding it hard to find a party that gets it right.

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> Author: StephenR
> You can hardly argue that Russia has a pure free market – the state would seem all too willing to interfere when it feels like it…

> Author: Mark Hubbard
> Oh Geoff, goodness me. As StephenR said, the Russians are so far from holding a free market you could drive a tank through the notion…

Sorry, I didn’t intend to imply that Russia was a pure free market. I used quote marks around “free market” in relation to Russia in one instance, but inadvertently failed to do so in another. The point I was trying to make is that when Russia made the ideological change from communism (of an imperfect form) to capitalism (of an imperfect form) the fundamental problems of Russian society just reasserted themselves in the new context. A similar thing happened to New Zealand in the aftermath of the Labour government’s “economic reforms”. The point I wanted to make is that to be viable and sustainable an economic system must be supported by a moral order. When the economic system is cut loose from its ethical base then you are going to have problems.

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As a semi-infamous cartoon goes Mark:

“Are you coming to bed?”

“I can’t. This is important.”

“What?”

“Someone is wrong on the internet”

You should be very proud if you manage to stay off.

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Oh Geoff, goodness me. As StephenR said, the Russians are so far from holding a free market you could drive a tank through the notion, indeed, to prove my point, they regularly do. A free market, as with a free society, can only exist based on the non-initiation of force principle, from a Government on the people – you can’t be forced to do something against your will, you can’t be forced into, or out of, contract.

But other than that, this is just a quick explanation because I’ve dropped from the thread, and I’d hate y’all to think I’d become fed up, or dead. The fact is, I only intended the one day hit and run, and I’m just too busy to carry on, plus I’ve obtained enough from posting to form what will do as my view on the Greens, which is that the Green dream is a bit of a nightmare for those of us who value freedom, satisfaction in a life well lived, and prosperity – or at the very least keeping a little of your own money, or even enough to make life seem something approaching worthwhile.

I’d like to wish you all luck in the upcoming election …

… I’d like to, but I can’t, because if you win, then the mentioned nightmare will begin apace.

But I will wish you peace, Bliss. Though I suspect with the spiraling cycle of violence that welfare is lurching us into, such good intentions will nowhere near be enough.

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You can hardly argue that Russia has a pure free market – the state would seem all too willing to interfere when it feels like it…

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Mark Hubbard seems to be of the opinion that social violence is a consequence of social welfare. I don’t think that view should be dismissed out of hand. When social largesse is accompanied by a softening of moral standards, and the removal of a range of moral prohibitions, then it is not unreasonable to expect a deterioration in social behaviour – in other words it is quite conceivable that some people will start to act in the manner of an over-indulged child.

On the other hand a harsh regime of bread-and-water-if-you-are-lucky will have no better social consequences. Violence, and other kinds of anti-social behaviour will surely follow.

The only sensible basis on which to found a social order is one of strict moral guidelines, with appropriate penalties for transgressions, accompanied by compassion, care and concern for the disadvantaged or underprivileged.

The ideological standoff between those who argue for compassion without rules, and those who insist on rules without compassion, is unproductive. The ideological dispute between pure market capitalism, welfare state, and socialism misses the point.

We could do without a welfare state if capitalism was true to its founding principles of austerity, thrift, benevolence, charity, piety, honesty etc. Unfortunately international capitalism has abandoned its saving graces, and in New Zealand over the past three decades we have seen an unrelenting saga of greed, arrogance and dishonesty from the most voluble advocates of the free market. And neither is socialism is immune to processes of moral degeneration, as we have seen in the Soviet Union and China. But the consequences of moral decline cannot be addressed by simply changing from a socialist, or social welfare, economic system to a pure free market system, as the people of Russia have discovered. “Free market� oligarchs and the industrial mafia provide scant, if any, improvement upon the rule of the commissars.

Getting rid of the welfare state would not solve New Zealand’s problems. It might even exacerbate them. Raising moral standards in the home, the board room, and the institutions of state sounds more sound like a hard ask than a quick fix, but it is the only viable way out.

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oops shunda – office@sces.org.nz

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never mind shunda i saw your 8-24 post (in a different part of my inbox!)

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shunda – good 4 u. I strongly suggest you don’t waste any time getting things in place. You’ll find everything you need here (despite the lure of the USA)

“Our congregation is looking at teaching people to grow their own vege’s, there is a possibility to use the church buildings for workshops for the community to attend etc.”

I can help you with this (it’s my ‘bread and butter If you are interested, email me at this address:
office@sces.co.nz

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Shunda, any people at your church into the whole ‘we have dominion over the earth, God gave us this gift so we should exploit it’? Is sort of a sub-demographic of ‘anti-environmentalism’, but I think it’s fading…

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I would say it is up to you (us) to get the ‘environment’ into the news – get creative, get into action – today’s editorial in our paper is all about the spectacular rise of home gardening, tunnel house sales and the blossoming of new orchards across our region. Those stories don’t happen by accident. Start your revolution from the ground up (and develop some pet journalists

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Shunda barunda

The Greens have good relationships with people of faith. Including Christians.

I do not see how you can hint that the Greens are against organised religion. Where is your evidence?

peace
W

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