Comments on: $1 billion of warm homes http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/ hopping along the corridors of power Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:47:41 +1300 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Janine http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-56127 Janine Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:41:58 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-56127 Re insulating homes: EECA (on Jeanette's initiative) set up some pilot schemes a few years ago retrofitting older houses with impressive results. One community group up here used it as an opportunity to create training and work for some who'd been laid off the (down-sizing) freezing works - they are still doing the work several years down the track. Warmer homes, fewer cold-related illnesses, and jobs created. It's modest, but effective. The pilot included cost-benefit analysis so much of that work has already been done for this initiative. It isn't pie-in-the-sky. Re insulating homes: EECA (on Jeanette’s initiative) set up some pilot schemes a few years ago retrofitting older houses with impressive results. One community group up here used it as an opportunity to create training and work for some who’d been laid off the (down-sizing) freezing works – they are still doing the work several years down the track. Warmer homes, fewer cold-related illnesses, and jobs created. It’s modest, but effective.

The pilot included cost-benefit analysis so much of that work has already been done for this initiative. It isn’t pie-in-the-sky.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55528 Trevor29 Sun, 31 Aug 2008 20:45:06 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55528 The losses in transmission lines are significant, but in most cases are less than the cycle losses in charging and discharging storage batteries. There is a place for both. Trevor. The losses in transmission lines are significant, but in most cases are less than the cycle losses in charging and discharging storage batteries. There is a place for both.

Trevor.

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]]> By: eredwen http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55524 eredwen Sun, 31 Aug 2008 14:16:41 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55524 Wind and tidal (or various other water movement) generation would be sufficient to back up hydro in the South Island in the forseeable future. The old Army joke of "if it moves salute it and if it doesn't move paint it" etc updated to : "If it moves harness it for electricity generation ... " Over time we will have more efficient batteries for storage, from small scale wind and water-movement systems for individual households or neighbourhoods ... and this local generation will do away with some of the the significant wastage from power lines over long distances. I look forward to our households and neighbourhoods becoming energy independent in the next few years by using scaled down wind generators, solar heating of house and water, plus more effective insulation etc etc. Interesting times are before us! Wind and tidal (or various other water movement) generation would be sufficient to back up hydro in the South Island in the forseeable future.

The old Army joke of “if it moves salute it and if it doesn’t move paint it” etc updated to : “If it moves harness it for electricity generation … ”

Over time we will have more efficient batteries for storage, from small scale wind and water-movement systems for individual households or neighbourhoods … and this local generation will do away with some of the the significant wastage from power lines over long distances.

I look forward to our households and neighbourhoods becoming energy independent in the next few years by using scaled down wind generators, solar heating of house and water, plus more effective insulation etc etc.

Interesting times are before us!

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55521 Trevor29 Sun, 31 Aug 2008 11:42:40 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55521 SPC - why are you so fixated with the idea that you need two different types of generation? We have enough hydro in enough different locations in the South Island not to need any other type of backup. However we don't have enough water flowing into our lakes every year to meet our annual power demands, so we conserve that water by adding intermittant generation - wind at the moment and wave and tidal (and perhaps some solar) in the future. Wind is currently cost-effective per kiloWatt-Hour, so I don't know why you are saying "more higher cost (renewable) power capability". How much did you say it would cost to add CCS to a coal-fired power station? Trevor. SPC – why are you so fixated with the idea that you need two different types of generation? We have enough hydro in enough different locations in the South Island not to need any other type of backup. However we don’t have enough water flowing into our lakes every year to meet our annual power demands, so we conserve that water by adding intermittant generation – wind at the moment and wave and tidal (and perhaps some solar) in the future. Wind is currently cost-effective per kiloWatt-Hour, so I don’t know why you are saying “more higher cost (renewable) power capability”.

How much did you say it would cost to add CCS to a coal-fired power station?

Trevor.

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]]> By: SPC http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55519 SPC Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:47:02 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55519 Trevor Well sure, one does not need back up for SI hydro, if SI hydro becomes the back up to other SI energy supply. This of course means more higher cost (renewable) power capability - given hydro has been the cheapest energy. Trevor

Well sure, one does not need back up for SI hydro, if SI hydro becomes the back up to other SI energy supply.

This of course means more higher cost (renewable) power capability – given hydro has been the cheapest energy.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55514 Trevor29 Sun, 31 Aug 2008 07:38:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55514 I didn't mention geothermal because the issue I was answering related to South island generation, and the geothermal resources suitable for electricity generation are in the North Island. (There are geothermal resources in the South Island, but they aren't suitable for large-scale electricity generation.) We don't need back-up for South Island hydro. There is enough hydro generation to cope with any single hydro generator going off line or any single transmission failure. All we need to do is keep enough water in our South Island lakes. To do that, we use wind, wave and tidal resources when they are available, and over appropriate timescales and with enough diversity, they will be available. Did you even look up "salinity gradient power" SPC? Try "Pressure Retarded Osmosis". This is a firm resource, just more expensive than geothermal. Trevor. I didn’t mention geothermal because the issue I was answering related to South island generation, and the geothermal resources suitable for electricity generation are in the North Island. (There are geothermal resources in the South Island, but they aren’t suitable for large-scale electricity generation.)

We don’t need back-up for South Island hydro. There is enough hydro generation to cope with any single hydro generator going off line or any single transmission failure. All we need to do is keep enough water in our South Island lakes. To do that, we use wind, wave and tidal resources when they are available, and over appropriate timescales and with enough diversity, they will be available.

Did you even look up “salinity gradient power” SPC? Try “Pressure Retarded Osmosis”. This is a firm resource, just more expensive than geothermal.

Trevor.

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55511 jh Sun, 31 Aug 2008 07:17:49 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55511 # john-ston Says: New urbanism is just a mechanism for creating elites out of existing land owners and making housing far too expensive for the poor and the young. ................. New Urbanism suggests efficient design which means cheaper to live in. As for the alternative what assumptions do you make about fuel prices and the energy efficiency of affordable houses? # john-ston Says:

New urbanism is just a mechanism for creating elites out of existing land owners and making housing far too expensive for the poor and the young.
……………..
New Urbanism suggests efficient design which means cheaper to live in.
As for the alternative what assumptions do you make about fuel prices and the energy efficiency of affordable houses?

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]]> By: SPC http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55510 SPC Sun, 31 Aug 2008 07:01:10 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55510 Wind power capability is not such a back-up. "Tidal" is not such a back-up. Wind power capability is not such a back-up. “Tidal” is not such a back-up.

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]]> By: SPC http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55509 SPC Sun, 31 Aug 2008 07:00:27 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55509 Trevor The context was what back-up do we have when the SI hydro dams cannot generate power. At the moment we have Comalco taking less energy and a NI to SI transmission of power - this is limited by transmission capability. The only way around transmission limitations (apart from investing in greater capability) is local spare (back-up) production of power. Wind power capability is not such a back-up. Hydro is not such a back-up. Back-up capability is something which can go on or off stream as and when the spare capacity is required. Trevor

The context was what back-up do we have when the SI hydro dams cannot generate power.

At the moment we have Comalco taking less energy and a NI to SI transmission of power – this is limited by transmission capability.

The only way around transmission limitations (apart from investing in greater capability) is local spare (back-up) production of power.

Wind power capability is not such a back-up. Hydro is not such a back-up.

Back-up capability is something which can go on or off stream as and when the spare capacity is required.

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]]> By: john-ston http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55507 john-ston Sun, 31 Aug 2008 06:50:21 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55507 jh, let me correct that comment for you "The Greens should have been pushing new elitism" New urbanism is just a mechanism for creating elites out of existing land owners and making housing far too expensive for the poor and the young. jh, let me correct that comment for you

“The Greens should have been pushing new elitism”

New urbanism is just a mechanism for creating elites out of existing land owners and making housing far too expensive for the poor and the young.

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55506 jh Sun, 31 Aug 2008 06:46:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55506 The Greens should have been pushing new urbanism. The Greens should have been pushing new urbanism.

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]]> By: kahikatea http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55504 kahikatea Sun, 31 Aug 2008 05:26:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55504 Trevor29 Says: August 31st, 2008 at 1:13 pm > In a country with good wind, wave and tidal flow resources in both islands? By the time they manage to get an acceptable level of clean burning coal - if they ever do - salinity gradient power is also likely to be ready - and New Zealand has GigaWatts of that resource too. > We don’t need coal or nuclear in our future. Absolutely. If I lived somewhere like Poland, which doesn't have those opportunities, I'd be more open to the possibility of nuclear energy. But in New Zealand it's completely unnecessary. But I'm interested that you didn't mention geothermal in your list. While the attempts to make coal environmentally friendly look like a pipe dream, making geothermal energy clean does seem promising. The power stations they are developing in other countries bring the geothermal fluid up and pump it back down without exposing water or air to it - all they take from it is the heat, and use that heat to boil clean water to power steam turbines. That has to be promising. Trevor29 Says:
August 31st, 2008 at 1:13 pm

> In a country with good wind, wave and tidal flow resources in both islands? By the time they manage to get an acceptable level of clean burning coal – if they ever do – salinity gradient power is also likely to be ready – and New Zealand has GigaWatts of that resource too.

> We don’t need coal or nuclear in our future.

Absolutely. If I lived somewhere like Poland, which doesn’t have those opportunities, I’d be more open to the possibility of nuclear energy. But in New Zealand it’s completely unnecessary.

But I’m interested that you didn’t mention geothermal in your list. While the attempts to make coal environmentally friendly look like a pipe dream, making geothermal energy clean does seem promising. The power stations they are developing in other countries bring the geothermal fluid up and pump it back down without exposing water or air to it – all they take from it is the heat, and use that heat to boil clean water to power steam turbines. That has to be promising.

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]]> By: eredwen http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55502 eredwen Sun, 31 Aug 2008 03:30:19 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55502 Well said Trevor29 ! Well said Trevor29 !

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55499 Trevor29 Sun, 31 Aug 2008 01:13:29 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55499 "The future must be coal when they discovery clean burning technology..." In a country with good wind, wave and tidal flow resources in both islands? By the time they manage to get an acceptable level of clean burning coal - if they ever do - salinity gradient power is also likely to be ready - and New Zealand has GigaWatts of that resource too. We don't need coal or nuclear in our future. Trevor. “The future must be coal when they discovery clean burning technology…”

In a country with good wind, wave and tidal flow resources in both islands? By the time they manage to get an acceptable level of clean burning coal – if they ever do – salinity gradient power is also likely to be ready – and New Zealand has GigaWatts of that resource too.

We don’t need coal or nuclear in our future.

Trevor.

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]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55260 Kevyn Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:53:02 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55260 Burning coal seam methane is probably a better option. The big problem with the South Island hydro lakes is that they are all dependent on weather events that are going to happen less frequently as average temps warm up, judging by the way that the ENSO cycle impacts on Central Otago. Hence the confident prediction that next year will be another dry year in the lakes catchments. Burning coal seam methane is probably a better option. The big problem with the South Island hydro lakes is that they are all dependent on weather events that are going to happen less frequently as average temps warm up, judging by the way that the ENSO cycle impacts on Central Otago. Hence the confident prediction that next year will be another dry year in the lakes catchments.

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]]> By: Patrick Starr http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55227 Patrick Starr Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:33:27 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55227 it'll be a cold day in hell before this happens it’ll be a cold day in hell before this happens

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]]> By: Geoff Fischer http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55199 Geoff Fischer Thu, 28 Aug 2008 04:36:42 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55199 Before the 1999 parliamentary election I asked a Green Party candidate why she wanted to be a Member of Parliament. Her answer (“Because I’m tired of being poor and I’m tired of being powerlessâ€?) revealed her fundamental misapprehensions about the nature of poverty and power….

full text at http://www.republican.co.nz – The Green Party and the Emissions Trading Scheme

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]]> By: greenfly http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55186 greenfly Thu, 28 Aug 2008 03:03:17 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55186 clean burning technology -pipe dream for the coal kings. That 'future' hasn't moved any closer at all, since the idea was breathlessly mooted by the extraction industry spokespeople, despite the billions poured into research (in Australia in particular) clean burning technology -pipe dream for the coal kings. That ‘future’ hasn’t moved any closer at all, since the idea was breathlessly mooted by the extraction industry spokespeople, despite the billions poured into research (in Australia in particular)

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]]> By: SPC http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55184 SPC Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:56:21 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55184 Kevyn At the moment the SI default is reducing power to Comalco. So the SI gets some cover in the wevent of hydro shortages. But sure building up SI capacity (the future must be coal when they discover clean burning tech) is the alternative to developing secure NI to SI transmission capability. Kevyn

At the moment the SI default is reducing power to Comalco. So the SI gets some cover in the wevent of hydro shortages.

But sure building up SI capacity (the future must be coal when they discover clean burning tech) is the alternative to developing secure NI to SI transmission capability.

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]]> By: samiam http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55183 samiam Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:53:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/27/1-billion-of-warm-homes/#comment-55183 Agreed Gerrit that a lot more needs to be done to each house to get it right. The code, as it stands, is a dog. Getting it right need not cost much more than getting it half right. I'm interested in your suggestions as to funding it? Heat pump water heating seems a better option than solar in many parts of NZ. Full tax deductibility for private landlords if they achieve certain standards, as opposed to capitalised/depreciated is one solution. Agreed Gerrit that a lot more needs to be done to each house to get it right. The code, as it stands, is a dog. Getting it right need not cost much more than getting it half right.
I’m interested in your suggestions as to funding it?
Heat pump water heating seems a better option than solar in many parts of NZ.
Full tax deductibility for private landlords if they achieve certain standards, as opposed to capitalised/depreciated is one solution.

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