Comments on: Making IT happen – Greens IT policy http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/ hopping along the corridors of power Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:26:43 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: hiphop94 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-59092 hiphop94 Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:38:54 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-59092 I wonder for there is no marginal cost for a local call. To the user there is none by law, for the exchange it is a cost for the call that saturates the system Inside an exchange you cannot exceed the capacity of the connected twisted pairs, so saturation cannot occur. <a href="http://www.highspeedisp.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">ISP</a> I wonder for there is no marginal cost for a local call. To the user there is none by law, for the exchange it is a cost for the call that saturates the system

Inside an exchange you cannot exceed the capacity of the connected twisted pairs, so saturation cannot occur.

ISP

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]]> By: hiphop94 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-59091 hiphop94 Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:37:18 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-59091 I would like to share something with you. I just spent half my day fighting with the d**m Verizon automated help line. I tried in vein to reach an actual person! Got hung up on by the automation once, then transferred to the Verizon Wireless line where the computer started asking me if I had problems with my cell phone connection! 24/7 support?? Tell me, which 24 minutes of 7 days are talking about?? <a href="http://www.highspeedisp.co.uk/" rel="nofollow"> just get some ISP speed </a> I would like to share something with you. I just spent half my day fighting with the d**m Verizon automated help line. I tried in vein to reach an actual person! Got hung up on by the automation once, then transferred to the Verizon Wireless line where the computer started asking me if I had problems with my cell phone connection! 24/7 support?? Tell me, which 24 minutes of 7 days are talking about??

just get some ISP speed

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-57662 Trevor29 Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:47:16 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-57662 Strings wrote: "When I look at the corporate need for dependable mission critical systems, and I am faced with a choice between stuff done by a hobbyist, for free, and circulated on a ‘user beware’ basis vs stuff done by a major corporation that has a reputation to preserve and pays its people to not only write good code, but write it to standards, and to submit it to QA processes, I’ll take the latter every time." Much open source software is written by programmers employed by larger companies who want the software to work, and work well, and who are under less pressure to simply meet a marketing deadline. If problems are then found, they have an interest in fixing them since they are the user. Trevor. Strings wrote:
“When I look at the corporate need for dependable mission critical systems, and I am faced with a choice between stuff done by a hobbyist, for free, and circulated on a ‘user beware’ basis vs stuff done by a major corporation that has a reputation to preserve and pays its people to not only write good code, but write it to standards, and to submit it to QA processes, I’ll take the latter every time.”

Much open source software is written by programmers employed by larger companies who want the software to work, and work well, and who are under less pressure to simply meet a marketing deadline. If problems are then found, they have an interest in fixing them since they are the user.

Trevor.

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]]> By: Strings http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54692 Strings Tue, 26 Aug 2008 03:42:53 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54692 > >>You’ve tried phoning a major software vendor’s support line when their software misbehaves, I take it? Yep. No problem on the corporate support line we use. > >>Actually, the bus / car analogy is a good one. One bus has an engine welded shut at the factory; the other can be serviced by any mechanic, including the manufacturer. Which would you choose? The closed system. At least the people who open it will know what they are doing. Unlike the 'any mechanic' who wrecked the computer in my car because he didn't understand "this new fangled stuff". Cost me many pretty dollars to get that repaired. My bottom line is quite simple. When I look at the corporate need for dependable mission critical systems, and I am faced with a choice between stuff done by a hobbyist, for free, and circulated on a 'user beware' basis vs stuff done by a major corporation that has a reputation to preserve and pays its people to not only write good code, but write it to standards, and to submit it to QA processes, I'll take the latter every time. I used to write operating systems in the Mini-computer days.They were like calculus - complicated. In today's world, with a myriad of peripherals, interconnectivity and criminal intent, they're still complicated. It's just that now they're like quantum mechanics complicated, as opposed to the relative simplicity of calculus. >
>>You’ve tried phoning a major software vendor’s support line when their software misbehaves, I take it?

Yep. No problem on the corporate support line we use.

>
>>Actually, the bus / car analogy is a good one. One bus has an engine welded shut at the factory; the other can be serviced by any mechanic, including the manufacturer. Which would you choose?

The closed system. At least the people who open it will know what they are doing. Unlike the ‘any mechanic’ who wrecked the computer in my car because he didn’t understand “this new fangled stuff”. Cost me many pretty dollars to get that repaired.

My bottom line is quite simple. When I look at the corporate need for dependable mission critical systems, and I am faced with a choice between stuff done by a hobbyist, for free, and circulated on a ‘user beware’ basis vs stuff done by a major corporation that has a reputation to preserve and pays its people to not only write good code, but write it to standards, and to submit it to QA processes, I’ll take the latter every time.
I used to write operating systems in the Mini-computer days.They were like calculus – complicated. In today’s world, with a myriad of peripherals, interconnectivity and criminal intent, they’re still complicated. It’s just that now they’re like quantum mechanics complicated, as opposed to the relative simplicity of calculus.

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]]> By: chris http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54645 chris Tue, 26 Aug 2008 00:09:04 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54645 @strings - "I too like open software, I just worry about having no one to call when the lights go out, the bank stops giving me my money and the transport system closes down." You've tried phoning a major software vendor's support line when their software misbehaves, I take it? ;) "When something is owned by everyone, it is the responsibility of no one, and that’s a big risk to take in a world that depends on computing power for almost everything (including a snapped bus ride now!)" Actually, the bus / car analogy is a good one. One bus has an engine welded shut at the factory; the other can be serviced by any mechanic, including the manufacturer. Which would you choose? Having the sourcecode (engine plans and service manuals) freely available is a boon to having more people you can turn to. The manufacturer may well have a vested interest in NOT fixing a bug ("This will be fixed in the next major release, please upgrade"), but with open code anyone can provide a fix to the community - and you can still pay someone to give you that fix. You've lost nothing, and gained a more open and competitive environment. I'm all for that. @strings – “I too like open software, I just worry about having no one to call when the lights go out, the bank stops giving me my money and the transport system closes down.”

You’ve tried phoning a major software vendor’s support line when their software misbehaves, I take it? ;)

“When something is owned by everyone, it is the responsibility of no one, and that’s a big risk to take in a world that depends on computing power for almost everything (including a snapped bus ride now!)”

Actually, the bus / car analogy is a good one. One bus has an engine welded shut at the factory; the other can be serviced by any mechanic, including the manufacturer. Which would you choose?

Having the sourcecode (engine plans and service manuals) freely available is a boon to having more people you can turn to. The manufacturer may well have a vested interest in NOT fixing a bug (“This will be fixed in the next major release, please upgrade”), but with open code anyone can provide a fix to the community – and you can still pay someone to give you that fix.

You’ve lost nothing, and gained a more open and competitive environment. I’m all for that.

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]]> By: BluePeter http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54562 BluePeter Mon, 25 Aug 2008 03:39:14 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54562 >>"the setup of free municipally owned wireless networks" Laughs....you'll have people downloading movies 24/7. That's going to be one expensive bill..... >>”the setup of free municipally owned wireless networks”

Laughs….you’ll have people downloading movies 24/7.

That’s going to be one expensive bill…..

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]]> By: BluePeter http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54560 BluePeter Mon, 25 Aug 2008 03:35:47 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54560 "Ms Turei says wider adoption of open source software would reduce costs and lead to investment in local IT businesses" The IT world has been banging on about open-source OS for decades now, but it remains the choice of geeks. Why? It isn't a replacement for Windows. People weigh the cost savings of the license against the change in support structures and the conversion cost of applications and other hardware. The license always comes out cheaper. PS: I use Windows, Mac, and Linux on different machines. Windows, for all it's problems, is still the cheapest and most flexible OS, all else being equal. Mac is inflexible. Linux is ok for a limited range of applications, and it would be a brave IT shop that rolled this out across a user base used to MS. “Ms Turei says wider adoption of open source software would reduce costs and lead to investment in local IT businesses”

The IT world has been banging on about open-source OS for decades now, but it remains the choice of geeks.

Why?

It isn’t a replacement for Windows.

People weigh the cost savings of the license against the change in support structures and the conversion cost of applications and other hardware. The license always comes out cheaper.

PS: I use Windows, Mac, and Linux on different machines. Windows, for all it’s problems, is still the cheapest and most flexible OS, all else being equal. Mac is inflexible. Linux is ok for a limited range of applications, and it would be a brave IT shop that rolled this out across a user base used to MS.

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]]> By: Meyt http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54555 Meyt Mon, 25 Aug 2008 03:05:36 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54555 Hi ya'll, Just thought you might be keen to see some press we got out of the policy launch: http://www.stuff.co.nz/4668175a28.html cheers, Mx Hi ya’ll, Just thought you might be keen to see some press we got out of the policy launch: http://www.stuff.co.nz/4668175a28.html

cheers, Mx

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]]> By: Strings http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54505 Strings Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:15:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54505 > >> There is no marginal cost for a local call. To the user there is none by law, for the exchange it is a cost for the call that saturates the system Inside an exchange you cannot exceed the capacity of the connected twisted pairs, so saturation cannot occur. > >>The marginal cost for any call is almost indistinguishable from zero for almost any destination. Not true! If the destination is outside the exchange there is a cost for power boosting, and if outside the exchange owner's network an interconnect fee has to be paid to use the other network(s). This is a real cost, as anyone who sees the cost of 'roaming' in a telco will be able to attest! > >>Charging for data by the byte is not really in this category. Again, a misconception. 90% of data 'shipped' by carriers for internet usage comes from outside NZ, for which there are 'shipping' charges to be paid to other carriers to deliver it to our shores. There is, therefore, significant cost to the ISP to provide data over an internet connection. On the topic of IP over cable. The key issue in North America was dealt with a few decades ago, when cable television became popular and providers started laying cable (coax) throughout the land. In 2008 dollars the cost would be vast, in 1970 dollars (when my house in Toronto was connected,) it was quite reasonable (about three hours pay) and to "get connected" you had to pay a fee of about a day's pay, for which they extended the cable overhead to the house and delivered it to the place you wanted you TV to be. Doing the same thing with Fibre today has already been estimated at about $2,000 per. >
>> There is no marginal cost for a local call. To the user there is none by law, for the exchange it is a cost for the call that saturates the system

Inside an exchange you cannot exceed the capacity of the connected twisted pairs, so saturation cannot occur.

>
>>The marginal cost for any call is almost indistinguishable from zero for almost any destination.

Not true! If the destination is outside the exchange there is a cost for power boosting, and if outside the exchange owner’s network an interconnect fee has to be paid to use the other network(s). This is a real cost, as anyone who sees the cost of ‘roaming’ in a telco will be able to attest!

>
>>Charging for data by the byte is not really in this category.

Again, a misconception. 90% of data ’shipped’ by carriers for internet usage comes from outside NZ, for which there are ’shipping’ charges to be paid to other carriers to deliver it to our shores. There is, therefore, significant cost to the ISP to provide data over an internet connection.

On the topic of IP over cable. The key issue in North America was dealt with a few decades ago, when cable television became popular and providers started laying cable (coax) throughout the land. In 2008 dollars the cost would be vast, in 1970 dollars (when my house in Toronto was connected,) it was quite reasonable (about three hours pay) and to “get connected” you had to pay a fee of about a day’s pay, for which they extended the cable overhead to the house and delivered it to the place you wanted you TV to be. Doing the same thing with Fibre today has already been estimated at about $2,000 per.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54453 Trevor29 Sun, 24 Aug 2008 02:25:03 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54453 Thanks for the information bliss. The link threw me until I spotted the full-stop on the end. Trevor. Thanks for the information bliss. The link threw me until I spotted the full-stop on the end.

Trevor.

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]]> By: bliss http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54444 bliss Sun, 24 Aug 2008 00:38:29 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54444

“Lovely to see shout-outs to dewindowsing government computers, network neutrality, end-user-liability rather than carrier-liability, fair usage rights and crippleware.�

Can you translate this for us please?

Dewindowising: You will not find that in any dictionary but you can figure out what it means I am sure.

Network Neutrality: If I put data on the network and Disney put data on the network when our data arrives at a switch (think an Internet intersection) both sets of data are treated with the same priority. This is not what Disney wants. They want to be able to pay owners of Internet switches to give their data priority. This means that a start up like Trademe (founded in 1999) would have a lot of trouble getting started as they would be *slow*.

End user liability Vs. carrier liability: When Jo Blow downloads 100 GB of child porn it is Jo Blow who has committed a crime not her ISP. Jo is the end user, the ISP is the carrier.

Fair usage rights: Means you can make copies of copyrighted works in circumstances that do not impact (or impact slightly) on the copyright holder. Eg: I rip DVDs onto a computer connected to my TV so I can watch them. Technically illegal but unless I then sell the original DVD (I do not, I keep it as a backup) I have not hurt the DVD maker. Ripping CDs to an IPOD is (still) illegal in NZ (I think).

Crippleware: I use GNU/Linux exclusively so I had to look this up. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crippleware. Blows my mind that people put up with this stuff. DRM should be illegal. Grrr!!! Fury!!!! Steam coming out of my ears!!!!!!! About to expolde…. Chill Pill, calm down W, …… Time for some Bliss time!

peace
W

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54368 Trevor29 Sat, 23 Aug 2008 06:36:22 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54368 "Lovely to see shout-outs to dewindowsing government computers, network neutrality, end-user-liability rather than carrier-liability, fair usage rights and crippleware." Can you translate this for us please? Trevor. “Lovely to see shout-outs to dewindowsing government computers, network neutrality, end-user-liability rather than carrier-liability, fair usage rights and crippleware.”

Can you translate this for us please?

Trevor.

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]]> By: Ari http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54363 Ari Sat, 23 Aug 2008 06:09:48 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54363 Looks pretty good overall. Lovely to see shout-outs to dewindowsing government computers, network neutrality, end-user-liability rather than carrier-liability, fair usage rights and crippleware. I see nothing in the policy that, in principle, should be controversial to anyone with a decent IT background. Looks pretty good overall. Lovely to see shout-outs to dewindowsing government computers, network neutrality, end-user-liability rather than carrier-liability, fair usage rights and crippleware. I see nothing in the policy that, in principle, should be controversial to anyone with a decent IT background.

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]]> By: turnip28 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54303 turnip28 Fri, 22 Aug 2008 18:55:25 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54303 High speed internet is such a difficuly problem to solve because it doesn't work well in a free market solution. While a free market is good for deciding which type of high speed internet solution is the best it is very hard at handling competition amongst the providers of that solution. What the government did with telecom was good at allowing competition in DSL, the problem is that DSL is NOT a good technology for high speed internet as cable and fibre. In the US DSL tried to compete with cable and it was destroyed by the free market now the phone companies have had to spend vast amounts of money laying fibre to the house so they could again compete, Verizon(US Phone company) has come out with its fibre optic to the home solution so it can again compete with the phone companies. The most important policy the government of NZ needs to pass is one that restricts ISP's from packet shaping as that is a monopolistic practise that can hurt a free market economy. High speed internet is such a difficuly problem to solve because it doesn’t work well in a free market solution.

While a free market is good for deciding which type of high speed internet solution is the best it is very hard at handling competition amongst the providers of that solution.

What the government did with telecom was good at allowing competition in DSL, the problem is that DSL is NOT a good technology for high speed internet as cable and fibre.

In the US DSL tried to compete with cable and it was destroyed by the free market now the phone companies have had to spend vast amounts of money laying fibre to the house so they could again compete, Verizon(US Phone company) has come out with its fibre optic to the home solution so it can again compete with the phone companies.

The most important policy the government of NZ needs to pass is one that restricts ISP’s from packet shaping as that is a monopolistic practise that can hurt a free market economy.

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]]> By: samiuela http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54302 samiuela Fri, 22 Aug 2008 13:03:22 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54302 With regards local phone calls: in NZ, these are bundled up in the line rental, and form a significant part of it. I'm living in Australia, and pay Tel$tra $20 per month line rental, and 30c per local call. If it was not for the fact that I use VoIP for almost all my calls, my phone charges would be roughly the same as when I lived in NZ and had "free" calls. With regards local phone calls: in NZ, these are bundled up in the line rental, and form a significant part of it. I’m living in Australia, and pay Tel$tra $20 per month line rental, and 30c per local call. If it was not for the fact that I use VoIP for almost all my calls, my phone charges would be roughly the same as when I lived in NZ and had “free” calls.

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]]> By: samiuela http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54301 samiuela Fri, 22 Aug 2008 12:59:11 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54301 Strings, You write: " I too like open software, I just worry about having no one to call when the lights go out, the bank stops giving me my money and the transport system closes down. When something is owned by everyone, it is the responsibility of no one, and that’s a big risk to take in a world that depends on computing power for almost everything (including a snapped bus ride now!)" Not all free software is insecure or unreliable (just as not all commercial software is reliable). I am writing this reply on a computer running an operating system called OpenBSD. It is totally free (no GPL restrictions such as Linux has), and is also incredibly secure and reliable. If you can show me a more secure and reliable commercial OS, I will switch over tomorrow. Strings,

You write: ” I too like open software, I just worry about having no one to call when the lights go out, the bank stops giving me my money and the transport system closes down. When something is owned by everyone, it is the responsibility of no one, and that’s a big risk to take in a world that depends on computing power for almost everything (including a snapped bus ride now!)”

Not all free software is insecure or unreliable (just as not all commercial software is reliable). I am writing this reply on a computer running an operating system called OpenBSD. It is totally free (no GPL restrictions such as Linux has), and is also incredibly secure and reliable. If you can show me a more secure and reliable commercial OS, I will switch over tomorrow.

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]]> By: kahikatea http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54285 kahikatea Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:45:06 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54285 Strings Says: August 22nd, 2008 at 8:20 am > My conclusion: There IS something especially radical about the idea that our community don’t have to pay for everything that could be charged for, one way or another. Of course, councils have been treating water supply and sewage treatment as free for years, while surreptitiously paying for it out of our rates. Strings Says:
August 22nd, 2008 at 8:20 am

> My conclusion: There IS something especially radical about the idea that our community don’t have to pay for everything that could be charged for, one way or another.

Of course, councils have been treating water supply and sewage treatment as free for years, while surreptitiously paying for it out of our rates.

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]]> By: bliss http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54277 bliss Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:10:57 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54277 Strings

I guess this means that anyone who hasn’t got a PC and Broadband connection gets given one “for free�? (For free of course being translated to mean ‘on me’ as I’m a tax payer!)

That is a “straw man” argument. The policy does not say that. It says that every body should be able to access the technology. That does not make it free, just affordable!

peace
W

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]]> By: bliss http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54276 bliss Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:08:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54276

BTW: Is this the same Stallman who once proclaimed: “�It’s better not to use computers than to use proprietary software…proprietary software is unethical and unjust because it subjugates the user�.

Yep. The same.

Yep. An extremist.

But he has shown that Free Software works. There are thousands and thousands of free software programmes. The Linux kernel is the best known. The GCC compiler the most useful, IMO.

It is a bit worrying for traditional economic theorists. So much work done for free, why would that be?

peace
W

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]]> By: bliss http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54275 bliss Fri, 22 Aug 2008 07:01:40 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/21/making-it-happen-greens-it-policy/#comment-54275 Strings There is no marginal cost for a local call. To the user there is none by law, for the exchange it is a cost for the call that saturates the system - the straw that breaks the camel's back. The marginal cost for that call is huge, but that is the model breaking down. The telco deals with the problem by having a lot of spare capacity. This is not expensive as the expense is in putting the cables in. Putting in 2, 4, 8 or 16 times the capacity costs nothing like 2, 4, 8 or 16 times as much. The marginal cost of extra capacity is vanishlingly small. The marginal cost for any call is almost indistinguishable from zero for almost any destination. Pretty much all the costs of modern telco systems are fixed costs. So "the idea that our community don’t have to pay for everything that could be charged for, one way or another. " is radical, economically illiterate and just plain stupid. Charging for data by the byte is not really in this category. There is a difference between my data use of mayby 5 gig a month (in a busy month) and some people who can do 5 gig a day. But this can be accommodated like my ISP does where 20Gig is free (part of the fixed cost) and gets mildly incremental after that. Practically thinking it is a fixed charge. Strings

There is no marginal cost for a local call. To the user there is none by law, for the exchange it is a cost for the call that saturates the system – the straw that breaks the camel’s back. The marginal cost for that call is huge, but that is the model breaking down.

The telco deals with the problem by having a lot of spare capacity. This is not expensive as the expense is in putting the cables in. Putting in 2, 4, 8 or 16 times the capacity costs nothing like 2, 4, 8 or 16 times as much. The marginal cost of extra capacity is vanishlingly small.

The marginal cost for any call is almost indistinguishable from zero for almost any destination. Pretty much all the costs of modern telco systems are fixed costs.

So “the idea that our community don’t have to pay for everything that could be charged for, one way or another. ” is radical, economically illiterate and just plain stupid.

Charging for data by the byte is not really in this category. There is a difference between my data use of mayby 5 gig a month (in a busy month) and some people who can do 5 gig a day. But this can be accommodated like my ISP does where 20Gig is free (part of the fixed cost) and gets mildly incremental after that. Practically thinking it is a fixed charge.

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