If you vote for the current ETS, Labour will eat your vote. By keeping the ETS issue alive, the Greens have a big plank in their arsenal for the election campaign. Please learn from the Electoral Finance Act.

On the other hand, if you wish to leave an epitaph for the Green Party in the shape of the current ETS, go for it. Think carefully, because once you’re out, you’re out.

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samiuela: “If the Government’s ETS proposal is ineffective, then the answer seems obvious: don’t support it.”

The point is that it is NOT obvious. There are both big negatives and big positives, so the choice is not easy.

I agree with your second point that possible negative effects on future measures should be well considered.

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Toad,

If the Government’s ETS proposal is ineffective, then the answer seems obvious: don’t support it. Make it really clear that the reason the Greens don’t support it is because it won’t work (and give the reasons why it won’t work). People are not dumb, they will respect a well reasoned argument, even if they don’t personally agree with it.

An ineffective ETS is only likely to hinder future efforts to make meaningful reductions, because people will say: “why do we need this new measure when we already have the ETS?”

Cheers,

Miuela.

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I think Kyoto and any ETS will both cause untold damage to NZ (which is hard for me to say as I am really keen to see pollutant energies reduced)

NZ is already in the doldrums and we have to be creatively motivational rather than negatively punishing if we want changes in carbon-generating behaviour.

Both Kyoto and ANY kind of ets are open to international manipulations that are poorly understood by the average kiwi, and there is no good reason to expose us to those forces. It would be like having international financiers playing roulette with the NZ economy.

As if it wasnt bad enough already.

Where energy policies are concerned, we need to isolate ourselves, not expose ourselves.

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greengeek, signing Kyoto doesn’t mean we are obliged to have an emission trading scheme.

Especially one as ineffective as the Govenment’s proposal. There are other, and better imo, options available to move the sot of greenhouse emissions onto the polluters – eg a “carbon” tax, which is entirely consistent with Kyoto. Or even an ETS that which will actually do the business, which the Government’s one will not.

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I vote No…do not support the ETS. It was a mistake to have signed Kyoto, and anything that follows from it will only bankrupt New Zealand.

It would be better to pursue a hardline environmental policy OF OUR OWN DESIGN, IN OUR OWN TIMEFRAME.

big bro Says: When the Greens do support this bill in the house (because the reality is that they have already decided to do so) they can kiss goodbye to the slim chance that they had of making the 5% threshold.

BB, You are probably right that there will be a huge anti-green reaction to the ETS. However, I suspect this reaction will be one that intensifies (already) anti-green feeling, rather than increasing the NUMBERS of anti-green feeling.

Very few kiwis really understand what is happening to NZ with Kyoto and the ETS, so I am not sure that the Greens will lose too many votes over this. Maybe lose slightly more than they gain? Maybe taking their vote from 5.8% down to 4.9%?? Something like that.

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y’know..!

..politics is the art of the possible..

..not th eart of the incremental..

..phil(whoar.co.nz)

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don’t put words in my mouth plse greenfly..

..i am reporting farrar reporting this..

..and evaluating the possibilitiy of it being true..

(thru non-tinted glasses..)

..phil(whoar.co.nz)

..i repeat..(for the third time..)..i hope farrar is wrong

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BP, that’s my guess too, so big bro, no I won’t take your offered bet against.

“..the Greens disappeared when you rigged our electoral system to find a way to get Red Russ into the house…”

Is that the best straw you can clutch at? I can only laugh.

“What you fail to see or admit is that once again you are being used as a pawn in the career aims and ambitions of Helen Elizabeth Clark, she had UN ambitions and she wants to go to the UN with the title of “first in the worldâ€? despite the huge and possibly terminal damage it will do to our economy.”

Can’t even laugh at this, its such a sad bit of reasoning. You could well be right about Clark, but this is core Green policy we’re talking about. Jeanette is as much an expert on this stuff as anyone in the country and it is ludicrous to suggest she’s being taken for a ride for the PM’s vainglory.

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big call phil – Green Mp’s lying, Farrar truthin’.

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what i am saying..greenfly..

..is that farrar is ‘connected’ in wellngton..

..he has good sources of ‘inside’ information..

..and he has a record of not saying things like that..unless they are true..

..and why is it so far-fetched to you..that should they have already decided to do labours’ bidding..

..that they would do this ‘damage-control’..?

..jeeeeeze..greenfly..!

..take off your green-tinted glasses..eh..?

..and i did say..that i hoped i was proven wrong..

..eh..?

..phil(whoar.co.nz)

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phil – alarm bells should be going off in your head from the comments by Farrar, but not for the reason you suggest. Are you pitting Farrar’s integrity against that of the Green MP’s? Jeeeeeze Phil !!!

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and valis..i have no access to internal green party forums..

..could you please go to them..and get greens to place their feedback..

..i am sure the green punters are ahead of the mp’s on this..

..(as they are on most issues..)

..phil(whoar.co.nz)

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Valis

Rubbish, there is every basis for my assertion.

It was fair (not that long ago) that one could suggest that the Greens and ACT were the only two parties who had ethics and morals, the Greens disappeared when you rigged our electoral system to find a way to get Red Russ into the house and this so called “public consultation” is nothing but a sham.

Tell you what Valis, I bet you $50 (to the animal charity of your choice) that the Greens swallow this huge dead rat and vote with Labour despite all the bleating the Greens have done about the ETS in its current form.

What you fail to see or admit is that once again you are being used as a pawn in the career aims and ambitions of Helen Elizabeth Clark, she had UN ambitions and she wants to go to the UN with the title of “first in the world” despite the huge and possibly terminal damage it will do to our economy.

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valis..these are valid questions to ask..

..wouldn’t you be p*ssed to find/know that you had been ‘played’..as a form of ‘damage-control/spin..?

..and that ‘the deal is already done’..?

i mean..that’s aside from actually wanting effective legislation..

…eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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I’m saying they vote for it. We always see this same, tired performance.

I’ll be proved right on Tuesday.

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“When the Greens do support this bill in the house (because the reality is that they have already decided to do so) they can kiss goodbye to the slim chance that they had of making the 5% threshold.

Party of ethics……yeah right!”

Put up or shut up big bro. There is no basis for your assertion that the Greens have made up their minds, either in what has been said publically, or based on past behaviour. They may well vote for it given their policy on the matter, but the rest is pure conjecture.

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this is farrars’ latest ‘call’o this..

..i find farrar not to be one to say something..

..unless he is certain of his facts..

..and he is decidedly emphatic here..

..(which is setting off all sorts of alarm bells in me..)

“..It is a stunt, and I feel sorry for all the people who take the time to e-mail in their views on a decision that has already been made in substance, if not in form..”

frog..are the mp’s/leadership going to appear here..?

..to tell us what is what..

..or will it be the (standard) stony silence..?

..phil(whoar.co.nz)

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We’ve been here many times before.

Labour want to pass something.
The Greens have serious misgivings.
The Greens make like they aren’t going to go with Labour for a few days.
The Greens vote with Labour.
The Greens then make the excuse that it was better passing a turkey than nothing at all, and that we “won valuable concessions”.

Same old, same old.

I don’t know why you just don’t join Labour and be done with it.

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When the Greens do support this bill in the house (because the reality is that they have already decided to do so) they can kiss goodbye to the slim chance that they had of making the 5% threshold.

Party of ethics……yeah right!

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