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	<title>Comments on: More hardworking families forced into foodbanks</title>
	<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/</link>
	<description>hopping along the corridors of power</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53672</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 02:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53672</guid>
		<description>forcing long-term unemployed to take jobs, when we haven't actually done anything to enhance overall employment prospects, only creates more "churn" at the bottom levels of the labour market - creating inconvenience &#38; hardship for both those currently unemployed &#38; those currently working.

remember the phenomenon of long-term unemployment has only existed since the phenomenon of mass unemployment - it is a symptom of that.
enhancing labour demand is the crucial issue.

incidentally i'm hearing a lot of temping/recruitment company  advertisements lately - is this linked to increasing job-anxiety?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>forcing long-term unemployed to take jobs, when we haven&#8217;t actually done anything to enhance overall employment prospects, only creates more &#8220;churn&#8221; at the bottom levels of the labour market - creating inconvenience &amp; hardship for both those currently unemployed &amp; those currently working.</p>
<p>remember the phenomenon of long-term unemployment has only existed since the phenomenon of mass unemployment - it is a symptom of that.<br />
enhancing labour demand is the crucial issue.</p>
<p>incidentally i&#8217;m hearing a lot of temping/recruitment company  advertisements lately - is this linked to increasing job-anxiety?</p>
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		<title>By: ZenTiger</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53635</link>
		<dc:creator>ZenTiger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53635</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I agree with Jon-ston about the tax threshold up to $20,000. A less extreme version of this is actually green party policy. &lt;/em&gt;

I disagree.  You are misrepresenting Green Policy, if it is the Eco-Tax policy you are thinking of.

It was Green Party policy to exempt the first $5,000 of income from PAYE tax IN EXCHANGE for introducing a carbon tax and increasing Diesel taxes.  It was meant to be tax neutral, with the vain hope that the lower incomes would be better off.

The Greens brochure for this didn't even have any sense of urgency about this:

&lt;em&gt;We will remove all income tax on the first $5000 of income, for everyone. We will do this in three stages over the next three years.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;a href="http://nzconservative.blogspot.com/2008/01/greens-eco-tax-part-i-sweetener.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;[Greens Eco-Tax Policy Review]&lt;/a&gt;

I haven't caught up with any completely revised tax policy for this election, and so much has happened since this initial policy that I'm expecting significant revision.

I would like to see a tax free threshold of around $24K advanced by the major parties - it would make things interesting.  It would also be the required sort of threshold (IMHO) for the Greens to advance if their Eco-Tax offset of taxing the bads were to have any significant effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I agree with Jon-ston about the tax threshold up to $20,000. A less extreme version of this is actually green party policy. </em></p>
<p>I disagree.  You are misrepresenting Green Policy, if it is the Eco-Tax policy you are thinking of.</p>
<p>It was Green Party policy to exempt the first $5,000 of income from PAYE tax IN EXCHANGE for introducing a carbon tax and increasing Diesel taxes.  It was meant to be tax neutral, with the vain hope that the lower incomes would be better off.</p>
<p>The Greens brochure for this didn&#8217;t even have any sense of urgency about this:</p>
<p><em>We will remove all income tax on the first $5000 of income, for everyone. We will do this in three stages over the next three years.</em></p>
<p><a href="http://nzconservative.blogspot.com/2008/01/greens-eco-tax-part-i-sweetener.html" >[Greens Eco-Tax Policy Review]</a></p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t caught up with any completely revised tax policy for this election, and so much has happened since this initial policy that I&#8217;m expecting significant revision.</p>
<p>I would like to see a tax free threshold of around $24K advanced by the major parties - it would make things interesting.  It would also be the required sort of threshold (IMHO) for the Greens to advance if their Eco-Tax offset of taxing the bads were to have any significant effect.</p>
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		<title>By: libertyscott</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53603</link>
		<dc:creator>libertyscott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 17:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53603</guid>
		<description>Quite simply frog you say "Shouldn’t we be doing something now, before these trends overwhelm our ability to cope?"

I say, what's stopping you?  Why don't you all do it, spend more of your money on helping the less well off, dedicate time to doing it, stop campaigning to force everyone else to do it, and just do it with your own money, and then fund raise.  Why do you need to wait for the state to help people?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite simply frog you say &#8220;Shouldn’t we be doing something now, before these trends overwhelm our ability to cope?&#8221;</p>
<p>I say, what&#8217;s stopping you?  Why don&#8217;t you all do it, spend more of your money on helping the less well off, dedicate time to doing it, stop campaigning to force everyone else to do it, and just do it with your own money, and then fund raise.  Why do you need to wait for the state to help people?</p>
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		<title>By: bjchip</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53576</link>
		<dc:creator>bjchip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53576</guid>
		<description>WFF was an attempt to correct a massive step function in effective taxation that the middle class hit as it popped over the 60K income level.   It used to be that people getting an extra dollar of income in that realm, with kids, would get ten cents of improvement in their well being out of that dollar.  Now it is stretched out somewhat further.  I regard this as a necessary adjustment but it remains insufficient because the tax levels and brackets still force that effective marginal tax to the 60% region.  While people who have graduated into 6 figure incomes have a 39% effective marginal tax no matter how much more they make.  

For it to be fixed there need to be more brackets and some higher ones for those who have incomes in the stratosphere.  I predict that this will happen exactly when and if I manage to achieve such an income.  :-)

respectfully 
BJ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WFF was an attempt to correct a massive step function in effective taxation that the middle class hit as it popped over the 60K income level.   It used to be that people getting an extra dollar of income in that realm, with kids, would get ten cents of improvement in their well being out of that dollar.  Now it is stretched out somewhat further.  I regard this as a necessary adjustment but it remains insufficient because the tax levels and brackets still force that effective marginal tax to the 60% region.  While people who have graduated into 6 figure incomes have a 39% effective marginal tax no matter how much more they make.  </p>
<p>For it to be fixed there need to be more brackets and some higher ones for those who have incomes in the stratosphere.  I predict that this will happen exactly when and if I manage to achieve such an income.  <img src='http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>respectfully<br />
BJ</p>
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		<title>By: Geoff Fischer</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53560</link>
		<dc:creator>Geoff Fischer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 06:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53560</guid>
		<description>It is a basic tenet of liberal capitalism that, subject to certain legal restrictions, people should be able to do what they want - drink, gamble, smoke, fornicate or whatever (the more liberal society becomes, the longer grows the list of socially acceptable but damaging behaviours).   

But when the lower classes drink, gamble, smoke or fornicate, as they may, then the more privileged strata of liberal society become understandably resentful of having to deal with the consequences.

Liberal capitalism will not act to impose consistent and comprehensive moral rules on society, and neither will it be willing to fund the social costs of the resulting moral vacuum.  The solution to this conundrum will only come when the poor themselves voluntarily adopt a rigid moral code as a means out of their predicament - in other words expect to see the resurgence of militant fundamentalism among the working classes as their social and economic condition becomes more acute.

And then the champions of liberalism may wonder why they chose to make such a fuss about a few thousand solo mothers on the DPB or dope addicts living on sickness benefits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a basic tenet of liberal capitalism that, subject to certain legal restrictions, people should be able to do what they want - drink, gamble, smoke, fornicate or whatever (the more liberal society becomes, the longer grows the list of socially acceptable but damaging behaviours).   </p>
<p>But when the lower classes drink, gamble, smoke or fornicate, as they may, then the more privileged strata of liberal society become understandably resentful of having to deal with the consequences.</p>
<p>Liberal capitalism will not act to impose consistent and comprehensive moral rules on society, and neither will it be willing to fund the social costs of the resulting moral vacuum.  The solution to this conundrum will only come when the poor themselves voluntarily adopt a rigid moral code as a means out of their predicament - in other words expect to see the resurgence of militant fundamentalism among the working classes as their social and economic condition becomes more acute.</p>
<p>And then the champions of liberalism may wonder why they chose to make such a fuss about a few thousand solo mothers on the DPB or dope addicts living on sickness benefits.</p>
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		<title>By: eredwen</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53497</link>
		<dc:creator>eredwen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2008 00:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53497</guid>
		<description>Kiorei1  Very well said !  

... and the Public Service became the way it is now because of the big drive from those outside the Public Service to make it follow the "business model".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kiorei1  Very well said !  </p>
<p>&#8230; and the Public Service became the way it is now because of the big drive from those outside the Public Service to make it follow the &#8220;business model&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: kiore1</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53464</link>
		<dc:creator>kiore1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:55:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53464</guid>
		<description>dad4justice I have difficulties knowing where you are coming from.  On the one hand you are grateful to a socialist state that provides food for families in need (no arguments with you there) but on the other hand you consistently put down socialists in public office.  Yes Sue B gets quite a high salary, but nowhere near as high as a great many industry and government fat cats who do not do nearly as much work for it, and who are certainly not working in the public interest.

And you are partly right about the over-stuffed public service.  But as an ex-policy adviser myself I can tell you that the public servants at the coal face did a great deal of work.  The reason why we had to shuffle paper and not get anything meaningful done was because everything we did had to go through about 3 levels of bosses before it got to the minister.  These managers had to read through everything and make sure it was what the minister wanted to read before passing it on to the next level.  One of my colleagues was an expert in molecular biology and the minister wanted some advice on GM crops.  Was my colleague allowed to see the minister and explain it directly?  That would be too simple and too democratic.  She had to first explain it to the boss, who knew nothing about biology, who then explained it to the minister.

So yes, get rid of the parasitic government bosses, but leave hard working public servants and politicians alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dad4justice I have difficulties knowing where you are coming from.  On the one hand you are grateful to a socialist state that provides food for families in need (no arguments with you there) but on the other hand you consistently put down socialists in public office.  Yes Sue B gets quite a high salary, but nowhere near as high as a great many industry and government fat cats who do not do nearly as much work for it, and who are certainly not working in the public interest.</p>
<p>And you are partly right about the over-stuffed public service.  But as an ex-policy adviser myself I can tell you that the public servants at the coal face did a great deal of work.  The reason why we had to shuffle paper and not get anything meaningful done was because everything we did had to go through about 3 levels of bosses before it got to the minister.  These managers had to read through everything and make sure it was what the minister wanted to read before passing it on to the next level.  One of my colleagues was an expert in molecular biology and the minister wanted some advice on GM crops.  Was my colleague allowed to see the minister and explain it directly?  That would be too simple and too democratic.  She had to first explain it to the boss, who knew nothing about biology, who then explained it to the minister.</p>
<p>So yes, get rid of the parasitic government bosses, but leave hard working public servants and politicians alone.</p>
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		<title>By: dad4justice</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53461</link>
		<dc:creator>dad4justice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:51:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53461</guid>
		<description>Yes blue peter, less bureaucratic public servants shuffling paper all day and more people at the coal face would benefit society, however the lefty socialists believe all the problems are solved by hot air rhetoric spurted by some academic tosser, lawyer or unionist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes blue peter, less bureaucratic public servants shuffling paper all day and more people at the coal face would benefit society, however the lefty socialists believe all the problems are solved by hot air rhetoric spurted by some academic tosser, lawyer or unionist.</p>
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		<title>By: BluePeter</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53459</link>
		<dc:creator>BluePeter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53459</guid>
		<description>&#62;&#62;We are standing quietly by as spectators while our middle class savings are wiped out and while our less well off neighbours begin to starve.

And you've enabled those conditions for the past nine years. 

What conditions did you think low growth, low productivity, abundant welfare, and wasteful government spending would create? Prosperity?  

You've got exactly what we've been predicting all along.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;We are standing quietly by as spectators while our middle class savings are wiped out and while our less well off neighbours begin to starve.</p>
<p>And you&#8217;ve enabled those conditions for the past nine years. </p>
<p>What conditions did you think low growth, low productivity, abundant welfare, and wasteful government spending would create? Prosperity?  </p>
<p>You&#8217;ve got exactly what we&#8217;ve been predicting all along.</p>
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		<title>By: dad4justice</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53458</link>
		<dc:creator>dad4justice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 20:28:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/more-hardworking-families-forced-into-foodbanks/#comment-53458</guid>
		<description>Oh, by the way. I am extremely thankful for assistance from the nanny state, you know, food grants from WINZ so my daughter can eat food. 

How much do you get a year Sue B ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, by the way. I am extremely thankful for assistance from the nanny state, you know, food grants from WINZ so my daughter can eat food. </p>
<p>How much do you get a year Sue B ?</p>
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