by frog
After a little over 3 years of frogblog you just broke the 5 million words of comments mark last night. Occasionally there has been a few gems in there too, so thanks for your contributions. (But perhaps a tiny bit too much abuse recently – don’t scare away the other readers please.)
Published in Society & Culture by frog on Thu, August 14th, 2008
Tags: comments
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Thank you for that Frog. Nice to know.
Thanks also for the comment about abuse.
Yes, in my case, the roughness of the debate, the abuse of the person rather than debate the ideas, is very distressing to me.
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you know what’s really ‘very distressing’ for me joy..?
(in one line/summary..?..)
that every indicator has shows we have gone backwards (environmentally)..
..in these past years jeanette fitzsimons has been the gummint spokesperson for sustainability..(!)
(go figure..!..who knew..?..)
your thoughts on the ‘distress-factor’ in that fact..?
joy..?..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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i would question the power of being a spokesperson in the first place.
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Jeanette’s actually Government “Energy Efficiency” spokesperson, not “Sustainability” spokesperson. Energy efficiency is the one area of sustainability where we’ve actually made some progress in the last three years.
If only she were the Sustainability Spokesperson!
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Hooray 5 million though – looks like i’ve made no mean contribution
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IS there one toad?
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Jeanette is the first to say that the overall record of this government on sustainability is appalling, in fact has been saying it for years and Russel is constantly on their backs about it too. So not sure what you’re accusing her of Phil, but you’re really barking up the wrong tree.
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and just as a reality check for you joy..
these people..big bro..d4j..call me a ‘p’cook/’p'-dealer/abusive parent/bludging sole parent..etc..etc..
999 times out of a thousand..i deflect/respond..using humour/tasking the piss out of them/pointing out the idiocies of their ideas/attitudes..
the main forum this happens in is at kiwiblog..
(which is the biggest such forum in the country..run by former shipley staffer david farrar..)
and..in the comments section..)…is full of the extreme end of rightwing ratbags..
..this is where the rightwing ideas are presented/honed..
..and i see as part of ‘what i do’..(as a ‘green’)..
..is to be there as a foil..and to counter their fallacious arguments/ideas..
..why i feel this is important..(in a ‘green sense’..)..
..is because of the huge swinging/malleable audience that reads kiwiblog..
..it is these people i am attempting to talk to/argue to/present alternative ideas to..
..not the raving nutbar big bros/d4j..etc..
(they ‘don’t matter’..)
now..the language/insults used by these rightwing nutters is extreme..
..and as i said..instead of responding ‘in kind’..
…i can often make readers laugh at them..and their idiocies..
..readers at kiwiblog are in no doubt i am a vegan/dark green/cannabis-decriminalising advocate/dog-loving sole parent..
and so i present/argue/defend those ideas..(and more..)..whenever i can..
..now..calll me an ego-maniac..
..but i think i (sorta) make a little difference doing that..
(farrar would confirm..that i have an ‘audience’ there..
and in one of those ironc twists..
..i am also good for his visitor numbers/traffic..)
..but in the main.. i am there to challenge/argue against their bullsh*t..
…and i think i’m quite good at it..
..but hey joy..!
..this (green) struggle/battle isn’t a tea-party..
..(i have a 13 yr old son..if only for that reason..
..the stakes are very very high..)
..and the ‘roughness of the debate’..is..
..just a ‘fact of life’..
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
.
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Valis said …but you’re really barking up the wrong tree.
Or perhaps just “barking”! Oops, sorry Phil, couldn’t resist it.
And StephenR, no there is not a Government “Sustainability” portfolio.
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valis..
shouldn’t we just draw a discreet veil over any examinatons of the ‘wins’ of the last nine years..?
surely..?
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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so..how is ‘energy efficiency’..not ‘sustainability’..
am i missing something here..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“am i missing something here..?”
Yes you are. Energy efficiency is how efficiently we use _energy_. Sustainability is how sustainably we use our natural environment. Natural environment |= energy.
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Phil
If you really believe you have a fan club at Kiwiblog (or here for that matter) then you are seriously deluding yourself.
99% of them see you as a leech who thinks he has a right to sponge from the rest of us.
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# phil u Says:
August 14th, 2008 at 10:44 am
> so..how is ‘energy efficiency’..not ’sustainability’..
> am i missing something here..?
Energy efficiency is a small subset of sustainability, just like dentistry is a small subset of health care. To suggest that an energy efficiency spokesperson has influence over all areas of sustainability is like expecting a dentist to cure cancer and diabetes just by working on teeth.
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bro..i’m not talking about you..and the rest of the carpet-chewers/table-biters..
..i’m talking about the silent readers/swing voters..
ask farrar..if you don’t believe me..
(q.e.d..?..joy..?..)
and george..do you really view that pin-head dancing exercise..
..as a ‘serious’ answer/’rejoinder’..?
..i sorta see jeanettes’ ‘brief’..
..as all matters environmental..
..and we all know the ‘silences’ from the greens for the last nine years..
..have been because of their ‘arrangments’ with labour..
..eh..?
..to test the veracity of that..
..d’yathink..that if the last nine years had been under a national govt..
..that we would have seen a far more militant/noisy/agitating green party..?
..i do..
..(q.e.d..again..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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I’d say phil u is one of the few good reasons to read some kiwiblog. I find his writing to be quite lucid and very entertaining at times.
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phil says:
“shouldn’t we just draw a discreet veil over any examinatons of the ‘wins’ of the last nine years..?”
Toad alluded to some wins in the last three years in the energy efficiency area only. As my post said, the Greens see the overall environmental record of the last nine years as appalling. So rather than a discreet veil, the failure to do more will be a feature in the campaign I’m sure. You seem a bit confused about this Phil.
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Phil U,
As far as I am concerned, with what little energy I have (elderly, caring for a critically ill partner), abuse and attacking the person is abuse, comes from most on the political spectrum, although I do find the greens to be more polite about debating the subject.
I am sure from what you say I could not stomach Kiwiblog, even Colin Espiner’s “On The House” gets far too much utter ranting tripe from the right. Do few of them even know how to express themselves in a reasonably literate manner?
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no..joy..they don’t..
..an ugly reality of life..
valis..oh really..!
..you see no problems with that appalling nine-year record..?
..and the greenshaving ‘supported’ this labour-led govt..
..for those nine years..?
..if you can see no ‘issues’ with that..
..i fear you are the one who is ‘confused’..
..phll(whoar.co.nz)
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and hey..!
winston peters has a blog..
..with an open comments facility..
um..!..why don’t jeanette and russel have blogs..?
..with open comments facilities..?
..and..the green mp’s..?
..remember all that talk about ‘new’/open’ ways of running political partyies/movements..?
..wha’ happened..?
..the greens are old school top-down/one-way ‘conversation’/dialogue-control..
(the odd/rare appearance here..to pronounce from on high..and then to withdraw..and never answer any questions raised..
..dosen’t really ‘count’..eh..?)
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/winston-peters-has-a-blog/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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nice. 1.25 words per new zealander.
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Any blog/forum that is left to run wild will inevitably end up with a bunch of horrible people posting nasty things to each other, because anyone with any sense will be driven away. Only the crazy bastards will thrive in such an environment.
If nasty comments are not allowed past a moderator, then those people will go elsewhere.
So IMO this blog should be moderated harder. Responsibility for the state of the comments falls squarely with the owner(s).
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Joy
enjoy your time here, it is a site that often benefits from exceptionally good debate.
But do not be taken in by Phil, who has been banned from Kiwiblog for his predilection to abuse people.
As a self-confessed ‘beneficiary lifestyler’ he is used to getting what he wants from society at no cost to himself, and explains it away by the need of his teenage son for parental oversight during school holidays.
There are many of us who believe he is actually suffering from a mental aberration, as there are times of exceptional lucidity in his life, by which we are convinced he occasionally takes his prescribed medicine. But these times are few and far between.
Happy daze
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oh yes, and I should of added scouts to those holiday options… one that may be oarticuarky relivant for the children of lifestylers.
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you mean like what strings just said..?..rimu..?
how should one respond to that..?
..and sapient..
you really should stop putting your naievete/ignorance/simple thinking up for show so often..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil, tell us what the Greens with 6 MPs should have done to force Labour to produce a better environmental outcome. We can see by today’s policy release on energy that dumping them for the Nats would have been even worse.
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come on valis..
..that is not the only tool they have had..
..they have totally failed to use the court of public opinion..
(medical marijuana being an example of that failure..)
..and the many other assets at their fingertips..
..and all cos’ of fear of offending labour..
i refer you back to the strongest evidence..
..that under a national regime..we would have had a very different green party..
..can you see that..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
and..chrs username..
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Philu said:..that is not the only tool they have…
Now come on Phil, you know all us men have only one.
Although, over on Key wee-blog, I did ask very politely for supplementary member, because mine was worn out.
I do not support the SM electoral system that John Key is trying to promote, I might add.
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Toad
You’re turning into a bit of a link whore these days.
Is there something you need to tell us?, come on, get it off your chest man, you can tell me I promise not to say a word to anybody.
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No, just posting it here before you did BB, given your subsequent post on Key wee-blog re saving and using it at your time of choosing.
It’s called pre-emptive strategy.
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Don’t worry my friend, that one is well and truly saved for the inevitable rainy day.
I look upon it as a gift from the gods.
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gee toad..
you are kinda..’sad’..eh..?
punning ‘tool’ jokes..?
..do you really think that is funny..?
how old are you..?
..second childhood..?..or premature senility..?
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Any blog/forum that is left to run wild will inevitably end up with a bunch of horrible people posting nasty things to each other, because anyone with any sense will be driven away. Only the crazy bastards will thrive in such an environment.
If nasty comments are not allowed past a moderator, then those people will go elsewhere.
So IMO this blog should be moderated harder. Responsibility for the state of the comments falls squarely with the owner(s).
I agree. I’d spend more time here if the debate was less polarised and less centred around people who hate the greens.
Congrats to the blog and Frog and all though
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I don’t really read it for peoples comments, I read it to be enlightened to the happenings of the greens. It’s not worth debating with some people. Take Russia vs Georgia
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I read it because it exposes me to other peoples opinions and in doing so helps me further develop and elaborate on my own opinions. Though as of late there hasint been too much high or even moderate quality debate. On that subject, havint seen BJ around for awhile.
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“Occasionally there has been a few gems in there too” Frequently is the word I would have used.
5 million. Do we get extra credits for words with multiple syllables? Just to level to level the playing field with phil…eh?
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“..I agree. I’d spend more time here if the debate was less polarised and less centred around people who hate the greens..”
why don’t you go to that (closed) internal green forum..
..i understand there is all sweetness and light..
(not a lot happens..but what does..is ‘naice’..)
..(that may be more suitable for your ‘sensitivities’/sensibilities..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil is right about combating misinformation. EG Kiwiblog> MrDennis> Owen McShane>
Green/Nazi links
http://www.nzcpr.com/guest84.htm
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That link started here:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2008/08/espiner_on_energy.html#comments
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thanks for the heads-up on that pile of drivel from mcshane..
..i’ll go and snarl athim after i finish news-gathering..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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the latest roy morgan poll has the greens on 4%
http://curiablog.wordpress.com/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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apologies..!..fairfax has greens on 4%..
roy morgan has 7.5%..
(still down there in that ‘poll-rut’ tho’..
..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil u says:
“..and all cos’ of fear of offending labour.. i refer you back to the strongest evidence.. ..that under a national regime..we would have had a very different green party..”
Sure, its called “opposition” and we could have chosen that, but the record of accomplishments in the House wouldn’t have looked any better for it.
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what ‘accomplishments!!’..?
don’t you see..!
the lack of ‘accomplishments’ is what the problem is..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Your opinion couldn’t be more obvious phil, so could you please now address the question? You attribute the lack of progress to the Greens being afraid of Labour. I’m suggesting that if the Greens had refused to work with Labour at all, the result would be at least as bad and probably worse. What of it?
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Once again Valis confirms that talk of a possible coalition between the Greens and the Nat’s is nothing more than a con.
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Phil
I am not sure you are best placed to give the Greens election advice, your stance on dope (should the Greens ever really decide to take your advice) would be enough for them to sink out of sight.
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bb..a recent stuff online poll had support for medical marifuana at 73%..
..your reactionary ideas on pot just go with the rest of your rabid/rightwing grab-bag of ideologies..
..eh..?
valis..i didn’t say very little happened because the greens are ‘afraid’ of labour..
..how on earth could you come up with that..?
..i didn’t say the greens should have refused to work with labour..?
..how/why are you making these things up..?
..i can’t see where i’ve even said anything that could be misinterpreted that way..
please show me..
and big bro..
..your sole-parent bashing legislation has written you totally out of any contention for a deal with the greens..or the maori party..
(key as ‘stoopid’..)
…i suggest you read (rightwinger) fran o’sullivans column.
.if you are still unsure as to why nationals’ welfare policy both sucks..and blows..
but yeah..!..bye bye to any deal with the greens..or the maori party..eh..?
..silly silly national..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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The Nat’s will not need the Greens Phul and nor would they seek to a coalition with them.
The “con” comes from the Green party, they are the ones who falsely like to push the line that the may consider a deal with the Nat’s simply as a way of grabbing a few votes from environmental minded middle ground voters who are considering voting for the Nat’s.
As for the Maori party, your words only confirm your racist attitude toward Maori, their more enlightened leaders (Sharples being one) sees welfare as the biggest blight on maori where as you seem to see being on welfare as a natural part of Maoridom.
Like it or not Phul, Dr Sharples will be the next Minister of Maori affairs even if the Nat’s have the numbers to govern alone (looking increasingly likely) as Key will do a deal with the Maori party even if he does not need them.
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bb..a recent stuff online poll had support for medical marifuana at 73%..
Yeah right
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# big bro Says:
August 16th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
>> bb..a recent stuff online poll had support for medical marifuana at 73%..
> Yeah right
Stuff polls aren’t particularly reliable, but I see no reason why legalising medical use of marijuana shouldn’t be supported by 3/4 of the population. Medical use of morphine and pethidine is commonplace (I doubt there are many people who have had surgery and not been prescribed one or other of those drugs), and they are related to heroin, which is a class B drug. Marijuana is a class C drug. Opiates are as addictive as tobacco, whereas marijuana is not significantly addictive. I think most people are capable of weighing up the evidence more sensibly that Big Bro.
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Sorry if I misunderstood you phil,
“..and all cos’ of fear of offending labour.. i refer you back to the strongest evidence.. ..that under a national regime..we would have had a very different green party..?
but you seem to be contrasting the Green performance against that if the Nats were in government, so I guess I don’t know what you mean. What would the Greens have done different with the Nats that would have made a difference to the legislation Labour passed if we’d done the same with them?
big bro, it would be a con if any Green had said a coalition with the Nats were possible. Which one said this, or is it just another of your straw men?
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“..but you seem to be contrasting the Green performance against that if the Nats were in government, so I guess I don’t know what you mean..”
what i mean is that the greens have never been through the stage they needed to to grow/develop as a political party/voice..
..namely as a vigorous/agitating opposition party..
..standing up on their hind legs..
..and baying for the environment..
..and fighting/wrestling concessions..
..and most importantly..
..fighting in the court of public opinion..
..i would submit..that had they been doing that for the last nine years…
..they would not now be languishing/hovering at a (dismal) 4-7% poll ratings..
(i hope that clarifies what i am getting at..)
..and valis..if not this..can you explain why..at a time when the environment is in the centre of political diaogue/concerns for the most people ever..
..that so few people are looking to the greens for any answers/solutions..?
(and i take no pleasure in having (repeatedly) warned that this would happen to them..should they yoke themselves so irrevocably to labour..
..that they would ghettoise themselves/the political arm of the environmental movement..
..and close off that wide/centreist support they had to have..
..this would seem to have to have come to pass..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil, opposition parties can yell and fight all they want, but they don’t obtain concessions as a result – just ask the Nats. The only thing that does that in Parliament is contributing to the numbers needed to pass bills. The discursive power is mainly used with the public to get the numbers in the first place. Obviously we have failed to convince enough people, but let’s not go around that circle again. There are many explanations from another of today’s threads so I won’t repeat myself here: http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/08/16/two-polls-two-stories-2.
Night.
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yes valis..i do understand how parliament works..
..and the inherent llimitations..
..but that is just one of the resources/tools available to them..
..and one of the most powerful..
..is the court of public opinion..
y’see..’silly’ old me thought the greens would use those resources to their full..
..instead..they have withered from disuse..
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil, you’re been taken in by the media and believe you’re being informed by them about what the Greens are and aren’t doing and saying. That most of what the Greens say is never reported is not our fault. This is a huge problem that you can not just wave away. Many people at least as smart as you
have been tearing at this problem for years. It is very difficult if not intractable. The Greens are very aware of the need to use their discursive power – how to do so effectively is worked on each and every day. Fair enough to say we haven’t succeeded, but very unfair to say we’re just not trying.
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yes valis..i also understand the official green spin on this..
..blame the media..
.sorry..!..i don’t ‘buy’ that..
…i need only give you one example..
..medical marijuana..
..the greens have the good luck to draw the bill from the parliamentary ballot..
..i leaned forward..fullly expecting metiria to pop up on close-up/today/this morning/wherever..
..but aboslutely diddly-squat was done to even start/engage in any debate about that..
q.e.d..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Ah this is about your pet topic, I see. A very bad example when we’re talking about whether the Greens put enough resource into environmental issues. But don’t worry, it will get media full of Green comments when the bill is considered.
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Phil(whoar.co.nz) I have to ask; for all the ‘standing up on your hind legs and baying’, have you been successful in advancing your cause(s)? Is baying a successful ploy? Lots of noise, for sure, but results? I’d like to know.
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other ‘pet topics’ include the environmental degradation wrought in the last nine years..
..(waterways..?..anyone.?..)
..the total failure of any advancement in animal welfare..
..it may actually be quicker for you to tell/show me (concrete) examples of where they have done ‘good’..?
..rather than me list the failures..
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil – significant funding for wetland protection
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environment centre funding (thanks Rod)
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“..greenfly Says:
August 17th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Phil(whoar.co.nz) I have to ask; for all the ’standing up on your hind legs and baying’, have you been successful in advancing your cause(s)? Is baying a successful ploy?..”
hard to say..
..but do you know of any other daily on-line gigs that are so up to the mark/onto it as whoar.co.nz..?
if so..could you please point them out to me..
..sitting in my darkened cell..surrounded by hounds..as i do..
..i only have r.s.s. stats etc to cheer me..
i do have an anecdotal from a friend tho’..
a friend of his saying to him..(enthusiastically..)
“..have you found whoar.co.nz yet..?
..it’s the best thing on the net..!..”
..i did take some cheer from that..
..and decided to just keep on ‘baying’..
..information is power…
..greenfly..
..but really..i’m just doing it..(laying the ‘pearls’..as i were)…
..wether or not he porcine ones pick them up/understand them..
..is out of my hands..
..but hey…!..greenfly..
..try this exercise..
..think of some green thread you are interested in..
..go to whoar..and in the search box at the top of the page..
..key in your choice..
..and see what pops up..eh..?
..with nearly 18,000 stories/links there..
..there’d be a reasonable chance you’d find some stuff to make you ew..!
..whoar..not only a daily newspaper..
…also a resource..
..(does that answer your ‘baying’ sneer..?..)
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Phil – my ‘baying’ reference was not a sneer. I copy/pasted that from your previous post
. I read your comments in all manner of places and am aware of your audio work etc. I wonder if you suffer the very same problem the Green Party labours under 
that is, great message, cloth-eared listeners.
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(ahem..!..i withdraw and apologise for the ‘sneer’ accusation..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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phil u – hard to read the subleties of attitude and emotion in a post isn’t it
As you flash through the various blogs, inflaming the righteous, you have a lot of silent support. Keep casting your indigestable pearls before the porcine masses, (hint: dress them as truffles!) Don’t knobble your own steed though Phil
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greenfly, Well said …
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