As toad has pointed out, we are on the wrong thread, so I won’t attempt to answer your “either/or” question here.

Maybe another time …

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Ok, so you do not agree with the large number or nations (including NZ) who went into Afghanistan, does that mean you are/were not concerned about the abuses of human rights and the enslaving of woman under the Taliban regime?

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” Are you saying they cook their stats?”

You bet I am, remember it is Labour who have politicized the public service and as such any figures that come out have to be considered suspect.
Labour have “form” in areas like this, I need not remind you how they lied about they state of our economy in the late 80’s in a failed attempt to con the nation into believing that things were better than they actually were.

In the old days (and here I do speak with some experience) the public service was very much staffed with Sir Humphrey clones however for all their failings they were neutral, about the worst thing one could do career wise was to discuss politics at work as they were almost paranoid about being seen as anything other than neutral.

As for Collins….well I cannot wait until she is our PM

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To be accurate, I wrote:

“Personally I do not think that Osama bin Laden will go down in history as a thoroughly “bad chapâ€? …”

1) Note the word “thoroughly”. (I don’t necessarily see him as a “goodie”.)

2) Recognize that, with our media’s over-dependence on USA-based news sources we DON’T get all sides of the current picture, so I spend a lot of time reading much more widely.

Here is a good starting point:
http://informationclearinghouse.info/subscribe.htm

3) Conspiracy theories about “9/11 aside, recognise that the GWBush administration had their own reasons to go into Afghanistan …
Indeed, interfering in other people’s lands has escalated into a much bigger area since then, and evidence suggests that this was planned well in advance …

That’s just a starter!
eredwen

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They are not Jafapete’s figures, they are MSD’s – as quoted directly in the National Party backgrounder. Are you saying they cook their stats?

And John Key may not have personally said that, but Judith Collins has on a number of occasions.

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Yes…I am not D4J in disguise

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*BB, you do realise that was a tounge-in-cheek comment dont you?*

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Really!…he has a claim on New York?

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Sigh!…they do say that the first casualty of war is the truth.

First of all (and I suspect this will fall on deaf ears) Key has NEVER said his policy was a reaction to the Labour party directive to move people from the dole to the sickness and invalids benefit (still a statement of fact despite Jafa’s massaged figures) more it is a move designed to change the culture of long term beneficiaries.

Whats more you both (Jafa and Toad) know that, however you are also smart enough to realise that that argument is logical and not going to tear at the heart stings of the wet liberals hence the dramatic use of terms such as “benefit bashing”.

As for me, hell you know that I do not need any excuse to bash bludgers, as apposed to the few genuine benefit recipients who IMHO do not get enough.

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Yes, perhaps I should look a little more closely at what you write but to be honest I struggle given your assertion that Bin Laden is not such a bad chap.

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In this case, what you “suspect” couldn’t be further from the truth!

If you had read my post more carefully, you might have noticed (among other “clues”) statements such as:

“If one looks carefully, everything has various “shades of GREYâ€? in it, and it is these shades that need to be examined and discussed.”

(Please pay more attention before leaping into print next time!!)

e

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Check out my post over on g.blog on this BB (and others). With some help from jafapete, I think we have managed to show that the assertion above is all National Party spin.

There has been no mass migration from unemployment benefit to sickness and invalid’s benefits, and the statistics for uptake of those benefits don’t show anything other than what demographics would predict.

It’s all a big lie to justify forcing sickness and invalid’s beneficiaries to look to work in order to pander to beneficiary-bashing voters like BB.

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..do you really want to re-litigate that disaster/fiasco..

..and don’t insult our intelligence by trotting out that hoary old ‘negotiate with terrorists’ chimera..

you well know the reasons for invasion were manufactured on a foundation of total lies/falsed letters/’evidence’..etc..

‘islamofascists’..’here’..

go and sit in the corner with d4j..

..you are singing looney-tunes..again..

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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In my distracted haste I addressed the above to “bj” instead of to “big bro” !

(… two different people with very different points of view!)

eredwen

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“For example, how many lives have been taken, or have been destroyed, (directly or indirectly) by the actions of the USA over the last few years?”

If you have any sense of balance you would ask yourself the same questions about Bin Laden and our Islamist chums.

However I suspect that you have a closed mind on these issues, you seem to be firmly in the USA=Bad camp and that is a shame.
When the Islamofacists start their campaign of terror here (and they will eventually) I will be interested to see how quickly you change your tune, and please…do you really think you can reason or negotiate with terrorists?.

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My only sibling and his family are all American Citizens. I have met many Americans who think as I do! (Some of them are Greens.)

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I don’t live in your “Black and White” world !

If one looks carefully, everything has various “shades of grey” in it, and it is these shades that need to be examined and discussed.

For example, how many lives have been taken, or have been destroyed, (directly or indirectly) by the actions of the USA over the last few years?
and WHY?

(for what declared reasons? and for what undeclared reasons?)
… and why and how has the World watched in silence?
… and where is the United Nations?

I am not a gullible person.

In my own family:
I was born in new Zealand in 1941 …
my children’s father was born in Nazi Germany in 1941 …
We were both “War Babies” and our two sets of parents did their best to raise their children under those circumstances …

It certainly makes one think!
and, importantly, it has given our now adult “children” a perspective that is different from the (often black and white) perspective encountered here. Our children’s perspectives were aided by the input of two wonderful sets of grandparents!

Above all, our now-adult children fully understand that:
ARMED CONFLICT IS A RIDICULOUS METHOD OF MAKING DECISIONS!

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Labour HAVE moved people onto the sickness and invalids benefit, it is a statement of fact.
WINZ are under immense pressure to bring down the unemployment figures, increasingly so as we lead into the election.

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You simply change the attack without addressing the original point – you got your facts wrong.

Tell me where above it sounds like I am tipping children into the gutter? I’ve just argued against the National Party Policy of forcing solo parents to work in exchange for the DPB. That’s hardly demanding the end to all welfare.

Indeed, I think it more logically consistent to argue that all life is precious (anti-abortion) rather than assume if they are starting off on the back foot the kid should be killed. My humanitarianism extends beyond birth too, long posts for another day. You are suffering from more misconceptions Phil – part of the problem is perhaps that you think your solutions work and all other ideas are wrong. However, the left do not have a monopoly on compassion.

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