Kelpie:
Plant breeding companies are able to survive quite happily at the moment without needing their produce patented. Genome patents are just a quirk of the US legal system. There is no need for them.
It is easy to say “ban, ban, ban”, but I personally prefer to look at the genuine concerns on an individual basis and see if they can be resolved, with a ban being the last option if this is unsuccessful. This is a serious issue we need to work out. I will have to do more research on it, I was expecting someone over here would have the answer.

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Mr Dennis you make a very important point: but I have a feeling that if we fail to recognise American patents we could have the gun boats in the harbour forthwith.
Let’s try to keep their bluidy GE shyte out of our Country.

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“Based on your concern about pain being caused to animal foetuses and their abortion, I assume you are also against human abortion?”

Of course, and human cloning because it has the same problems.

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What I am referring to is one of the biggest problems with GE, and it has absolutely nothing to do with science, food safety or anything like that (concerns that are often overstated).

There are reports of farmers in the USA who have had GE plants found in their fields. This can occur from pollination from GE crops nearby, or even from GE seed blowing off the back of a truck (which incidentally is not prevented by using terminator genes).

When these plants are discovered, farmers have then been prosecuted for stealing patented material, as the actual modified genome is patented. The farmer is legally required to give up his crop and give it to the seed company, just as if he had copied a patent on anything else.

This is a major problem, as farmers can be incriminated for theft through no fault of their own, nor through any fault of the GE technology – just through a legal technicality. It can also prevent farmers from keeping seed from one year to the next without paying royalties to the company.

This is why it is important that we do not recognise genome patents here. If we don’t recognise such patents, this major issue with GE in the USA will not be a problem here. If we do recognise them then we are asking for trouble.

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I cannot answer your question about genome patents because I do not know exactly what you are referring to.
If you significantly alter a genome to create a benefit (ie address a mischief) and can control the use of that genome then you can apply for a patent.
In effect anyone who registers a plant variety is registering a “genome” because the genome determines and expresses the variety.
But registering a plant variety is not the same as filing a patent.
Many plant varieties are sterile hybrids and so there is no problem of control.
These hybrids (like mules) have their terminator genes built in. But for some reason they are acceptable while terminator genes built into GM plant varieties are not even though that is obviously the best means of ensuring downstream control over reproduction.
I find it difficult to make sense of it all. The traditional way of creating plant varieties (esp flowers) was to irradiate the seeds with ionising radiation and hope that a few of the sports would be useful in some way – such as a new colour. This is a totally random process but remains the standard process in the absence of GM.
Go figure.

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kiore1:
Thanks for that, I didn’t realise the success rate was still so low.

Based on your concern about pain being caused to animal foetuses and their abortion, I assume you are also against human abortion?

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“Could you please explain what you mean by this? How do you feel the effect on the surrogate differs from standard AI?”

Gladly – GM animals are created by nuclear transfer, the same type of technology that created Dolly the sheep. Basically a somatic (body cell) nucleus (the part with the genetic information) is placed inside an egg cell that has had the nucleus sucked out. The transgenic DNA (the part form the other species we are interested in) is inserted into the nucleus. The egg with the body cell nucleus is then placed inside a surrogate mother.

There are many problems with this method. The main one is that the nucleus of the body cell only has some of its genes expressed (ie only some genes produce RNA and proteins). But a nucleus in an egg cell has to have all its genes expressed in order to make an embryo (this is known as totipotent). The transgenic egg cells are treated in a certain way to make them totipotent (I am not sure of the details), but this also alters them in a way that nobody is sure of, and as a result many abort before they become full term (causing pain to the almost fully formed foetus and the mother), are born severely deformed (causing pain to the transgenic animal), or are abnormally large and have to be taken out of the surrogate mother by Caesarian (causing pain to the mother). The success rate for transgenic animals is about 2%, so 98% end up on the scrap heap.

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Does anyone know any links to sites that say what GE foods they are intending to produce?

I have looked at the Erma and Agresearch web sites and they only talk about making enzymes, hormones and biopharmaceuticals, etc.

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kiore1:
“The other issue I have is with the animal manipulation. GM of animals by necessity involves intrusive manipulation, resulting in severe suffering to both the GM animals and their surrogate mothers.”

Could you please explain what you mean by this? How do you feel the effect on the surrogate differs from standard AI?

Also, no-one has answered whether NZ recognises genome patents, does anyone know?

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The main problem with the type of application AgResearch are proposing is that it is advocating a huge policy shift. The government policy on GM release is “case by case” assessment. I ought to know, I drafted hundreds of ministerial letters, speech notes and cabinet papers with that mantra. But the Agresearch application is policy change by stealth, without it going through cabinet or the public submission process.

The other issue I have is with the animal manipulation. GM of animals by necessity involves intrusive manipulation, resulting in severe suffering to both the GM animals and their surrogate mothers. In New Zealand this is regulated under the Animal Welfare Act (at least in theory), but if AgResearch have a blanket approval to import GM animals from countries like the United States with very weak legislation, then these animals may have been subjected to suffering that would be unacceptable in New Zealand.

The case-by-case HSNO approval by ERMA should at least in theory address the issue of animal suffering, since ERMA are obliged to take cultural, spiritual and ethical issues into account when making decisions. Bypassing this step is contrary to the intent of both the HSNO and Animal Welfare Acts.

And it is nonsensical to suppose that more animal flesh will feed the starving billions. Animal flesh is a cause of mass starvation, not its cure.

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Lol, if new zealand were truley nuclear free then I may feel sorry for all those cancer sufferers and people whom need scans; not to mention the poor psychologists.

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I am sorry to be pedantic but all those examples I referred to use Genetically modified organisms.
To make antibiotics we crank up the productivity by transferring the genes into more productive organisms or by modifying the switching genes which turn the genes on and off.
How do you think we keep coming up with new antibiotics in commercial quantities?
You cannot dismiss the issue over antibiotics and other medicines by saying they are “kept in laboratories”. Many live vaccines are produced via GE and are excreted by animals and people into the environment.
Anyhow the other objection is that GE allows companies to gain patents and of course all the organisms I referred to are subject of patents if they have been modified – although in some cases the patents have expired.
And the other objection is that GE is “Not natural”. But we seem happy to take advantage of these “unnatural” pharmceuticals. And the new attacks on malaria are based on GE parasites etc and we may well depend on GE finally control possums.
GE free is a very like Nuclear free. Where do you draw the line?
And of course NZ allows GE related patents. But you cannot patent a gene which occurs in nature in NZ and pure genome patents are hard to come by and to defend. I might say that in many cases – as for example the GM anti facial excema drug (which is a modified organism) the more valuable patent and the only one worth pursuing is for the diagnostic kit. The one is not much use without the other and the diagnostic kit is much easier to patent and more robust.

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The Greens have painted themselves into a corner over GE.
How about splicing a coral gene into our sheep so we have irridescent flashing blobs in the paddocks at night.

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Toad,
To what I refer; the production of drugs cheaply and the growth of replacement body parts. The animals would not need to breed and most likley due to the genetic cross overs of breeding it would undesirable to do so. With drugs the animals would most likley be cloned from a base set of proto-cells and with body parts the animals would most likley also be cloned; with the selection of relivant body parts, blood types and other such factors effecting which genome is chosen.

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Mr Dennis said: Owen is actually correct that insulin is produced by GE organisms

Yes, you’re right – I missed that example he referred to. But as you say, it is done within the containment of a laboratory.

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Sapient said: However with mammels the costs of providing secured, air tight, containment is massive and where the animals are castrated; totally surperfluous.

You are strictly correct Sapient. However, the whole point of developing genetically modified organism is that they can breed and pass on the modified genotype to their offspring. If they are castrated before mature enough to breed that is never tested, and each generation of animals would have to be developed from the same genetic modification procedure – which is prohibitively expensive – rather than natural conception.

Of course that may be what the biotech companies want – to have agricultural production forever beholden to them. That’s what Monsanto has already attempted to do with the development of the “terminator gene”.

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Toad, Owen is actually correct that insulin is produced by GE organisms – in this case bacteria I believe. I am not sure about the others but expect he is right. These are microorganisms in labs however.

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Toad, you are correct in terms of microbes and plants; both of which are a chalange to castrate. However with mammels the costs of providing secured, air tight, containment is massive and where the animals are castrated; totally surperfluous.
I castrated G.E. animal, unless it leaks some sort of vile substance, is of no danger to any of our industries or our G.E. free status. They can be held in a fenced off paddock away from feed stock and G.E. would become significantly more viable and could progress alot faster under these conditions with no additional risk to humans or anything other than the grass they consume.

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Owen, please don’t be deliberately obtuse. You know as well as I do that the term is being used here to describe the direct manipulation of an organism’s genes, rather than the indirect manipulation that occurs in traditional breeding and hybridisation.

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Panda said: we need to feed the projected 9 billion world population somehow

Panda, from what I’ve read, there is absolutely no evidence that GE crops provide higher yields. If you have some evidence of this, then please tell us all.

Sapient said” G.E. has the potential to provide affordable vaccines and medicines as wel as new body parts to replace those that are lost.

It does indeed. But this potential can be achieved by developing it in the containment of a laboratory environment, rather than taking the risk of releasing GE organisms into the environment. Once the Gene Genie is let out of the bottle, you can’t put it back.

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