by frog
The Green Party’s recently selected candidate for Botany, Peter Cooper, spotted this greenwash ad for a Toyota RAV4 (I’ve taken a screenshot below). He rang up Toyota and complained but it seems they were not keen to hear:
I saw red, when I came across this greenwash ad, and was motivated to give them feedback as I was terribly disappointed to see a commercial enterprise attempt to line their pockets by jumping on the fast-growing green bandwagon. It’s time we stopped declaring war on the planet, and treat the only Mother Earth we have with respect, after all, we are caretakers for future generations on this planet. It’s a crime that people buying this vehicle may do so, believing they are helping the planet. The ad is much more that puffery.
Their response was nothing more than an attempt to neutralize my comments, no apology for offending the the planet and her inhabitance, and no offer to take the ad off.
RAV4s have alway seemed to me the most urban of SUVs. Which I guess isn’t such a bad thing given one of the alternatives is SUVs driving over our rural environment just to prove they can. But their ubiquity does always make me wonder about Toyota’s Priuses. It’s a bit like buying free range eggs from those companies that mostly sells caged hen eggs. Is their specialist minority product simply salve for a company struggling with corporate social responsibility, or is it a genuine small first step towards a change of ways?
Published in Environment & Resource Management by frog on Mon, July 28th, 2008
Tags: Peter cooper, RAV4, toyota
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
“It’s time we stopped declaring war on the planet, and treat the only Mother Earth we have with respect, after all, we are caretakers for future generations on this planet.”
Your anthropomorphic Mother Earth doesn’t give a flying f**k for us. No matter what we do or don’t do our species (like all previous ones) has a limited time on earth as does the earth itself. We might as well have a good time while we are here and not get too hung up on environmental self flagellation.
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“No matter what we do or don’t do our species (like all previous ones) has a limited time on earth as does the earth itself. We might as well have a good time while we are here and not get too hung up on environmental self flagellation.”
What a FABULOUS example of a (potentially) self-serving cop out !
Couched in geological time, that “perfect excuse” to DO NOTHING COOPERATIVE could form the basis of a best-selling line of Tshirts.
They would sell particularly well among adolescents …
“There is no point in cleaning up my room because the Earth is finite” …
(I must remember that one the next time someone criticises my messy house!)
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eredwen: “Couched in geological time, that “perfect excuse? to DO NOTHING COOPERATIVE could form the basis of a best-selling line of Tshirts.”
What an excellent idea. Mind if I steal it ?
The problem with the Green movement is that it is a religion posing as political movement.
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eredwen Says:
July 28th, 2008 at 9:18 am
> They would sell particularly well among adolescents …
“There is no point in cleaning up my room because the Earth is finite?
well, as a teenager I used to use the excuse “why should I tidy my room when the whole world’s in a mess?”
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“why should I tidy my room when the whole world’s in a mess??
Well if you want to live in a dirty room that’s fine with me.
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What frog meant was ‘if we don’t treat it well, we’re f**ked’, Bryan.
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Er that comment was for Bryan’s first one, should’ve done a refresh first.
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“The problem with the Green movement is that it is a religion posing as political movement.”
Christ, what does that even mean?
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StephenR: so Greens are immortal are they ? Hate to break the news but what ever we do we all die eventually, I guess that means “You are f**ked if you do and you are f**ked if you don’t.”.
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StephenR: “Christ, what does that even mean?” I guess when you are inside something you can’t see that it is just another cult
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I’m really not inside, but how bout using some ‘reasoning’ or argument here? This seems like nothing more than trolling so far.
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Anyway, what a ridiculous ad! bah
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>
>>
“The problem with the Green movement is that it is a religion posing as political movement.
Christ, what does that even mean?”
>
Wheeeeeeee, and appeal to one cult about another! What wonderul fun.
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As for the Ad, nowhere does it say the car is “green, good, carbon nutral, or any of the things the Greens want. It simply says it is ‘natural’ to want one, and I think a vast number of people agree based on the sales figures! Ha ROTFPMSL
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It say’s the “car nature wants to own”. It’s not appealing to (what do you call it…. higher reason?) it is just using association. The humour etc is just distraction.
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I would say that the Settler Government are a bit afraid ( of the influence/energy) of the “ad men”.
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“Wheeeeeeee, and appeal to one cult about another! What wonderul fun.”
Heh heh, ain’t it though.
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Ah, I should have responded to what frog said about the Prius – there is a massive demand for that car, and so they have stopped production of some other car in two of their factories (somewhere) in order to convert production to the Prius, and this won’t come online for a few years at least, I believe. It’s more than a “specialist minority product” now, especially with the rate of growth in sales of hybrids in general!
As for CSR, I’m not sure if that’s why they were built in the first place or not , or was it the market – they saw a market for high fuel economy cars and made a decision? No doubt a mix of both, but more so the latter these days I suspect.
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I love the way so many Right Wingers read this blog – i very rarely bother reading right wing blogs , lifes too short to be reading shit .
I think the fact that they seem to log on to frogblog so often, and repeatedly in many cases, shows that they see the Green movement as a very real threat.
Hard to work out, I guess they keep posting their drivel in the desperate hope that they might sway any potential Green Voters into changing their vote ? ..buggered if i know, but its funny to watch.
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the ad is pretty cute but you’d have to be stupid to be fooled by the green wash (oops i forgot, people ARE stupid!)
theres no reason why religion and green ethics arent compatable. take some LSD and youll see what i mean. (collective consciousness) .
the whole world is a mess, sure, but there is nothing gained by being defeatest and worsening things. Bryan, we are way more f**ked if we dont do something to help preserve gods creation. – in this world and/or whatever lies beyond.
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The problem with vehicle emissions is that you can only make money selling new ones. So we will always have ads for new cars claiming to be better for the environment based on low fuel consumption.
However fuel consumption really hasn’t changed much since the 80s.
In addition, a new car takes a lot of energy and resources to produce, and produces a lot of pollution in the process.
In terms of global emissions, we are probably all far better off keeping our old 80s and 90s cars running for longer and not buying new. The Japanese import car trade is probably great for the environment – recycling older vehicles rather than making new ones. We would also save heaps of money doing this.
But what is advertised will always be what makes most money (new vehicles), regardless of the true environmental cost.
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weedeater: “religion and green ethics” I am saying that green ethics are a religion: are practiced like a religion by their adherents and the adherents have the same blind spot to rationality as the religious.
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Depends on your definition of a greenie Bryan…is Jefferey Sachs a greenie in his role as Director of the Earth Institute?
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Bryan – I beg to differ. I would argue that the Green principles are very rational. Don’t foul your nest or you will suffer! Cooperate or get squashed! Sounds like very rational behaviour to me. In fact, if I were to accuse the Greens of anything, it would be that they spend too much time appealing to our rational nature and not enough to our emotional nature, and then end up wondering why few are listening. Blind spot to rationality? I think not!
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Other Green/ACT parallel…although ACT have ‘the biggest bribe in history’ now I spose…
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frog: so Sue Kedgley twisting Labours arm to fund a ‘report’ into applying alternative medicine (aka prehistoric mumbo jumbo like homeopathy,reiki, iridology) in the public health system is an example of Green Party rationality ? Or is just an appeal to the flakier part of thew Green constituency.
I am being a little contrary in my claim that Green politics is religion ( though I do maintain that there are those who practice it like a religion). The Green Party has done a lot of good and the reality is we do have to address environmental issues to make our life more pleasant now. What I object to is all this new age,crystal wearing Gaian mysticism about the large lump of rock we accidentally evolved on.
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haz Says:
July 28th, 2008 at 11:06 am
I love the way so many Right Wingers read this blog – i very rarely bother reading right wing blogs , lifes too short to be reading shit .
……………………….
Sometimes there a good source of info on the “Greens”:
http://newzeal.blogspot.com/search?q=Urewera+17
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Bryan – the politics as religion argument cuts both ways, and indeed it could be argued that many of the faithful in all parties suffer from it. Those who worship the free market come to mind. Those who worship individual freedoms above all else. Those who worship the collective above all else. No party is immune. But to tar all the party members (of any party) with the religious brush is probably unfair. Ok, you don’t like the crystal wearing types. Personally, I prefer them to the pinstripe set in their BMWs. Viva la difference!
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Trev Loudens blog has some funny stuff Haz!
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frog: people can wear as many crystals as they like, eat organic tofu and worship Gaia until their sweat-lodges elevate…as long as they aren’t doing it on my time or my tax dollar. I feel exactly the same way about Maori traditional religious practices becoming part of government departments . I also feel the same way about a Christian prayer being said in parliament: you want to live in a pre-rational way fine: but not on my dime you don’t.
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Bryan,
So is acupuncture in your list of prehistoric mumbo jumbo? It cetrainly was for most in western medicine until they took their blinkers off about 20 years ago. Initially of course it could only be practised by MD’s who’d done a short course on it (rather than traditional acupuncturists who’d studied Chinese medicine for in excess of 7 years).
To what extent is your atttitude to different forms of alternative or complemetary medicine determined by prejudice rather than rationality?
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Kiwinuke: it sounds like you are a “true believer” so anything I say will be pointless. I totally support your democratic right to believe anything you want and to spend your money on any form of magic you choose to believe in: as long as you don’t expect me as a taxpayer to contribute.
I understand ACC funds acupuncture: sounds like another damn fine reason to privatise it and open it up to competition.
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Can someone explain why “the car nature wants to own” is endorsed by a bunch of rabbits? Is it because noxious pests make the SUV benign by comparison?
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For what it’s worth, in the American Journal of Chinese Medicine (35 (1): 21–5):
“The emerging clinical evidence seems to imply that acupuncture is effective for some but not all conditions”.
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michaela, wabbits are cuuuuuuuuuute
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michaela: RAV 4 is probably targeted at Botany Downs housewives and the school run. BDH probably think of bunnies as cute, not the wealth destroying pests they really are. For a BDH going diesel means they can turn up at yoga class or the organics shop without embarrassment.
Herne Bay Housewives drive Porsche Cayennes or Audi Q7′s: even with the V10 diesil option these babies are probably never gonna be the image of eco-friendly. Fortunately HBH don’t seem to care
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StephenR: I’ll see your quote and raise you one.
“In 2004, a University of Heidelberg team proved the worth of their “sham acupuncture” technique in a study of postoperative nausea and vomiting (PONV) in women who underwent breast or gynecologic surgery. The study involved 220 women who received either acupuncture or the sham procedure at the acupuncture point “Pericardium 6″ on the inside of the forearm. No significant difference in PONV or antivomiting medication use was found between the two groups or between the people who received treatment before anesthesia was induced and those who received it while anesthetized [11]. A subgroup analysis found that vomiting was “significantly reduced” among the acupuncture patients, but the authors correctly noted that this finding might be due to studying multiple outcomes. (As the number of different outcome measures increases, so do the odds that a “statistically significant” finding will be spurious.) This study is important because PONV reduction is one of the few alleged benefits of acupuncture supported by reports in scientific journals.”
http://www.quackwatch.org
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Hey Bryan
Is it just non-Western medicine that you have a problem with? What about our large Asian population. Shouldn’t they be able to access acupuncture, for example, via ACC if that’s what works for them?
I hear what you’re saying about the world being a lump of rock with a finite lifespan. However, that lifespan isn’t ‘finite’ in any meaningful way, only geologically.
The Sun is roughly half-way through its life, leaving us with anywhere up to another 4.5 billion years of life here. Your argument that it will end so why bother is thus irrelevant.
Have a nice day.
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Bryan,
It’s a fact that acupuncture, once regarded by the medicine & scientific community as magic non sense, is now regarded in many country as something that worth being taught to doctors, funded, discussed as a serious subject in the medicine & scientific community.
It’s a little bit easy to discard Kiwinuke comment that way.
But maybe you are “true non-believer”
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Well Bryan I didn’t read the study I quoted (I could) so have no idea if it advocated that stuff – it was a meta-analysis by the looks, so probably took that Heidelburg stuff into account. Anyway, it said some … conditions.
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Presse-puree: really ? I checked last year with a senior policy analyst at the MOH who confirmed that no DHB’s were using Supplementary Complementary Alternative Medicine (SCAM) even though they were allowed to spend their funding in this way.
The NHS in the UK is withdrawing funding from that darling of the SCAM fraternity the Royal College of Homeopathy due to dubious outcomes ( inspite of support of RCH from that well known expert on medical biology: Prince Charles).
Got any names of reputable hospitals (not Mexican cancer “clinics”) who regularly use SCAM with their patients ?
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numbersix: “However, that lifespan isn’t ‘finite’ in any meaningful way, only geologically.”
Given our individual lifespan is around 80 years I think finite is very meaningful.
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StephenR: “it was a meta-analysis by the looks,” meta-analysis is a commonly used technique by those who wish to claim validity for SCAM. Unfortunately the plural of anecdote is “anecdotes” not “evidence”.
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You mean I actually have to *look* at the study for specifics now? dammit
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numbersix: “What about our large Asian population. Shouldn’t they be able to access acupuncture, for example, via ACC if that’s what works for them?”
I find drinking strong espresso coffee and watching R-rated action movies on my laptop during my lunch break therapeutic: perhaps the government should fund that ?
Bottom line squandering tax dollars on dubious treatments for medical conditions is irresponsible. Given that none of our DHB’s seem to be doing why does Sue Kedgely insist on squandering more tax dollars in this way. I see she has got a $500k pa from Labour to get a couple of policy analysts employed in this area by the MOH.
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StephenR: umm maybe.
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Just look at the ones pointed on wikipedia. It’s a good starting point.
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|| I find drinking strong espresso coffee and watching R-rated action movies on my laptop during my lunch break therapeutic: perhaps the government should fund that ?
Perhaps the government already does – do you work in Wellington for the public service?
You do realise your mono-cultural thoughts on medicine are just that – monocultural?
And you also realise by giving the government the power to decide what does or doesn’t work for people is an example of the so-called ‘nanny state’ in action?
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Don’t know what you meant by the ‘meta’ comment, but what I meant was this paper looks at acupuncture used for a variety of conditions (whether curing or just relieving some symptoms, doesn’t say) and the ‘direction’ and ‘weight of evidence’ . Out of the 26 conditions “only two are associated with the maximum grading for both the weight and the direction of evidence: nausea and vomiting due to chemotherapy, or pregnancy and osteoarthritis.” and “Conversely for one indication, smoking cessation, the weight of the evidence is maximal
and the direction of the evidence is “clearly negative.?
As for the future “It is conceivable that EBM will eventually generate a list of indications for which acupuncture is demonstrably effective.”
RIGHT, i’m DONE being sidetracked for one day.
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numbersix: “You do realise your mono-cultural thoughts on medicine are just that – monocultural?”
So now its time to trot out post-modernism. All cultures and viewpoints are equally valid. Newsflash: no they are not.
That kind of thinking pretty much explains why productivity growth in this country is heading through zero after nine years of Labour/Green government.
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You really need to be better informed if you think the Greens are in government Bryan, and that’s being charitable.
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|| All cultures and viewpoints are equally valid. Newsflash: no they are not.
No, they’re not, as far as you’re concerned? Or as far as everyone knows? Or just esoterically? I’d be interested to know what that theory was based on.
|| productivity growth in this country is heading through zero after nine years of Labour/Green government.
You might not actually be aware that the Greens aren’t part of the government – although considering you’re writing on the Green Party blog, you probably should have known that.
You might also be interested to know the National Business Review had an article this month telling us how productivity growth has sped up of late, particularly during the last two years.
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You might want to go and continue the good fight over WFF over there though Bryan http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=2592
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Bryan states “The problem with the Green movement is that it is a religion posing as political movement.”
I have seen/heard that accusation delivered increasingly in recent times, along with a group of other, somewhat trite, “sound bites”.
Could it be that Election Time is getting nearer, and the size of Green support is being recognized … ?
In former years Greens were spoken of as “the Looney Green Fringe”
NOW its “a Religion”.
“GREEN” IS DEFINITELY GETTING BIGGER!
I have also noticed that a lot more offerings of unsolicited, dogmatic, “advice” about what we need to “change” in order to to “get” each of these peoples’ individual votes …
It is better to watch than a soap opera …
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StephenR: Looks to me like the Greens are part of the government even if they haven’t wangled a wedding ring out of Helen:
“What have the Greens achieved in Parliament in the last eight years? This three minute video is a quick summary of our victories, with interviews with our MPs about the difference we’ve made, including leading the debate on climate change, pushing for and winning new conservation and transport projects, helping to keep NZ out of the Iraq war and standing up for social justice.”
http://www.greens.org.nz/achievements
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There ya go! Next item – find out who is in government!
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numbersix: FYI: Productivity decline charts
StephenR: Thanks for the suggestion re “The Standard” but the intelligence of the debate is far higher here. There are only a few of the numerous local political blogs that offer any rational debate including here & Kiwiblog.
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StephenR: I suspect the answer next week will be “Not Winston”
Helen should have gone with Greens.
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Kiwiblog varies massively, but a high quantity of posts inevitably produces some high quality ones…you could do worse than PublicAddress, but that isn’t always political.
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I think she still would’ve needed someone else if she went with the Greens – hard to do so when UF and NZ1(?) rule out coalition if the Greens are involved.
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StephenR: Yeah I need to subscribe to a few mor RSS feeds from Public Address.
Meanwhile back on the topic of diesel vehicles: “On a jaunt from London to Geneva, that specifically included an extra 100 miles of city driving just to let the Prius shine, the Prius managed 40 mpg (U.S.). The 520d on the other hand managed 41.9 mpg, all in real world driving conditions.”
Autoblog
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Heh,
http://tinyurl.com/5etask
They don’t call it the Toyota Pious for nothing. It’s a marketing heavyweight, but as with any marketing of course you have to look behind the hype.
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Of course, a beamer costs a lot more, and unsurprisingly with more buck, you can get more bang.
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|| numbersix: FYI: Productivity decline charts
Much appreciated. I don’t see much correlation between a Labour government and low productivity, but they are an interestesting set of charts.
Cheers.
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Numbersix: have a closer look at the trend line on the top left chart. Then consider who was in government ( and more importantly what political philosophy held sway) when productivity growth was trending up and who is charge and what they are doing now it is trending down.
Even Deborah Hill-Cone in her recent (weekly ) “Business from the nappy bin” column was pointing out the impact of government obesity on productivity growth decline.
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alot of alternative medicines such as chinese medicine is legitimate as it has had ten of thousands of years to develop and relies on the natural effects of plants and such, alot of drug companies use local medical knowledge to develop their drugs.
natriopathy is legitimate also, in part because of the previous paragraph, though most of that is from placebo the big advantage with natriopathy is that they listen and collect informaton of diet and lifestyle and suggest changes, in that way it is a totaly valid alternative.
Homeopathy is in every way bull and has no bit of scientific validity.
but then again more than half the effect of prozac is placebo, lol.
i would like to see more natriopaths and psychologists and less midwives and psychitrists, and no homeopaths. lol
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sorry, i should say psychosomatic, not placebo, as thought does accually have a physical effect in prozac and pain killers
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# StephenR Says:
July 28th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
> Of course, a beamer costs a lot more, and unsurprisingly with more buck, you can get more bang.
Well, no. The BMW did slightly better, but that was still on a course consisting predominantly of motorway, rather than city driving, which is what the Prius was designed to be better for.
And it’s not because the BMW costs more. A Peugeot 607 diesel costs way less than the BMW, is slightly bigger, and uses way less fuel.
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It’s probably just an admission from Toyota that the buying a diesel RAV4 is better for the environment than buying a Prius.
It gets worse:
http://www.toyota.co.nz/PromotionalSpace/FEV+Range.htm
But at least its not as bad as this:
http://www.jeep.co.nz/sessions/
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Whoops quite right kahikatea.
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Don’t forget that diesel fuel has more energy per litre than petrol (gasoline) so the litres used for gasoline can look worse:
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/bulk_hydrogen_stor_pres_sandia.pdf
Trevor.
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What about the regular disposal of batteries though? Doesn’t that negate a lot of the Prius’ green value?
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This Diesel piece of rubish has nitrous oxide emissions of 0.13g/km, six times higher than the petrol version (0.02g/km). Like all so-called clean diesels, it is a pure marketing stunt, and one of the dirtiest choices for a city vehicle for smog forming and health harming emissions.
As to the CO2 emissions there is only 13% adavantage 185g/km vs 112g/km
Given that nitrous oxide emissions are also an extremely potent greenhouse gas, it is questionable whether there is any advantage at all from a climate change point of view.
I suggesgt looking up http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/ before getting scammed by the likes of Toyota.
Olly Powell
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You’re happy to talk it though.
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