Ha!! I see the “Settler Government” helped Rice escape.

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If some of you want to declare Saudi, and the Saud family, radical, then go ahead (and do the same for the Pope and Catholicism – historically they were the worse by far. Actually, you probably approve of torturing a witch by dunking her in water for 10 minutes – if she lives she’s guilty if she dies she’s innocent! Good precedent for Guantanamo).

The reality of the Saud family is that they are monarchs. Just like the Kings and Queens of England, up to the point of National Bankruptcy, they don’t think there needs to be an election to appoint them, it’s done by genetics, so their denial of democracy is just that – there is no democracy in Saudi Arabia and no pretence.
As for radicalism. The Sauds have been the most stable and dependable Middle East leaders since the 60s, and have managed to ensure some sense stays in OPEC despite many calls for wild action. If you ever meet one of the “senior” princes (yes there are a lot of princes, but many extended families have hundreds of cousin related people – ask my Sri Lankan wife who can’t even keep count of all hers) you would know that their ‘political agenda’ is peace in their country, stability in the commodities markets and an ever improving standard of living & quality of life for ‘their’ people.
I met the current king when we were much younger men than we are today. He was a man anyone would be proud to know. He maintains his heritage – well so do I. He lives by the moral and societal norms of that heritage well, so do I. He does everything he can to stop anyone from taking what is his – well, so do I.
Arabs, of all faiths, are different to westerners, so are Asians, and all other broad racial categorisations. This is based on history and the realities of life in their region of the world. There is an unbelievable arrogance in far to large a proportion of Anglo Saxon heritaged people, that ‘the western way is the right way’, and everyone else should conform! However, there is little in our way of life that is uniquely ours! The arts – you must be joking, the Japanese and Chinese set the standards before we were out of mud huts. Sports – go see how Africa defined almost all of them. Politics – you’re joking aren’t you, the Chinese dynasties were hotbeds of politics when we had village squires demanding brides virginity. Science – Sri Lanka had a national water supply and irrigation complex before the Romans started bating out of rivers. The list could go on forever; but perhaps the most telling is in Free Markets and Trade, something the Chinese and Arabs had when Abraham was still a twinkle in his fathers eye!
Before condemning, learn the facts, then you won’t torture someone because you “know” they’re guilty even if they haven’t admitted it and you don’t have evidence to prove it.

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http://www.3news.co.nz/Video/Politics/tabid/370/articleID/64508/cat/525/Default.aspx#video

Does have a lot of Winston’n'Condi show, but the beginning shows student activists at the protest.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0807/S00325.htm
Wellington’s VUWSA wades in to support the protesters

http://indymedia.org.nz/feature/display/71877/index.php
http://indymedia.org.nz/newswire/display/75778/index.php
useful background and updates at Indymedia

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Arrest:Bush & Rice USA, Austrailian / UK PM’s Howard & Blair /China and test Human rights law.

“Why Obama Scares the Hell out of me” (8 minutes approx) http://youtube.com/watch?v=OW1p56ahlio
“A second look at the Federal Reserve” (audio only, 1/7 approx 10 minutes each 70 minutes)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=F3TAh1gy6r

Nobel scientist issues warning on global warming He said warming beyond that would pose “a risk that is not acceptable to society.”

http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-32875920080406?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0

I feel the links and book mentioned above are most important for understanding politics and money. My view is that the creation of credit needs to fund saving the planet and its people rather than an international tax support private banks making money from created money

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FactCheck is pretty good but in this case is examining the wrong document and an incomplete set of facts. That Intelligence Estimate was produced only after a number of experienced intelligence analysts were transferred from the middle-east desks where they had been working for years (or resigned in disgust) and replaced by students of the Cheney school of middle-east politics who produced EXACTLY those opinions that Cheney wanted produced.

I watched the news, INCLUDING the international news. I saw the activity in the intelligence community and I predicted 6 months before the invasion that there was nothing there to be found and nothing would be found. I’ve seen this mob in action… and there’s nothing that compares in history that actually resulted in or was a result of, an actual democratic process.

It is one of the reasons I am here rather than still there.

That said our students are doing what students everywhere have always done… going “over the top” in applying morals and logic to politics which partakes as little as possible of either.

respectfully
BJ

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glad you clarified that sapient

I was about to wade in boots and all

what stopped me was the disbelief that anyone would be ignorant enough to equate WW2 allied action with terrorism

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patrick,
it wasint a peice of anti-american sentiment, it was mearly a point that one persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter; its just a case of euphmism to call any use of force against civilians anything else. and for the record i do beleive both terrorism and torture to be justified at times, but sanctioning them for any incident can easily slip into misapplicaton.

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“It can certainly be argued that both these things have happened in Iraq, under the Secretary of State’s watch.�

What a joke from Locke.. Condi Rice wasn’t Sec State until 2005. All matters were under UN observation by then.
This isn’t about Human Rights violations, this is about anti USA and taking a hostage like Rice.

When I read comments like this: Sapient Says: “what about nagasaki and the bombings of german cities? they fit terrorism perfictly�
It really reinforces how anti American, anti Kiwi, anti western,- the Green support base and leadership is.

Toad says; “Actually, if you’re not into serious argument, or at least humour that is funny, why don’t you piss off to Key-Wee-blog.�
Trouble is Toad, we run into you there almost 24/7

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im sure that there are afew in gaza who think ‘terrorism’ can be justified, same goes for the whitehouse. only difference is those from gaza are alot more cost effective .
what about nagasaki and the bombings of german cities? they fit terrorism perfictly, but are generaly accepted to have been desirable, the only difference is they were purportrated by ‘us’ not against ‘us’.

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# bigblukiwi Says:
July 25th, 2008 at 8:06 pm

jh – torture CANNOT be justified under any circumstances. You say if you had knowledge that they were involved before you tortured them then it would be OK. What sick mind thought that one up. First you ensure they are’ guilty’ then you torture them – what, for fun !!!!!!!
………..
but you need to find out where the bomb is etc. (it’s a common theme at the movies)

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Q:

What was known to U.S. intelligence and Congress about WMDs in Iraq before the vote to go to war?
A:

Senior U.S. intelligence officials believed, incorrectly, that Iraq had stockpiles of chemical and germ weapons and was developing nuclear weapons. They also agreed Saddam Hussein wouldn’t give such weapons to terrorists unless attacked. Few members of Congress read the full 92-page report with all its qualifications and dissents.
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/what_was_known_to_us_intelligence_and.html

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Strings – as for the rest of your above post – it is mainly an economic/financial analysis and largely accurate, however, the US has only itself to blame for getting into that position in the first place. If they had begun 35 years ago to seriously address their growing dependence on Middle East oil they may have saved themselves their present bind.

They could have developed alternative sources of energy but didn’t mainly because successive governments have been in thrall to vested interests in Big Oil & others such as the large banks and of course the Military- Industrial Complex. At least the two present contenders seem to acknowledge this fact and have said they will ‘do something about’ the situation, but I won’t hold my breath.

Yes, the inevitable collapse of the US economy will hurt many millions, if not billions of people across the planet, but unfortunately it is now far too late to avert that. Wise politicians everywhere are planning for that event right now.

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Strings – no radical Islam – you MUST be joking. What about helicopter gun-ships attacking Sunnis in the East and wiping out many villages. Oh, and they are not Sunnis they are Wahabi’s. An entirely different and more sinister type of ‘Islam’. Actually anti-Islamic in my view, but that’s for another place.

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Sam Buchanan – I’ve lived in Saudi, for 5 years and no, it’s no fun.

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Strings – your 1 and 2 above. Most Middle Eastern countries ARE Dictatorships. Only relatively few are Monarchies. These Monarchies are that in name only, Take the most reprehensible, Saudi Arabia. It is more like a grand mafia protectorate. The ruling family keeps it’s dominant position by a mixture of payoffs, fraud, repression, and religious terror. I’ll come back later when I’ve had a chance to absorb your rather ill-informed analysis.

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jh – IT IS CERTAIN that George Dubya knew there weren’t WMD. Know your facts please

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Panda – you speak of a US before it became a rogue State. I knew the States well some 50 years ago and it was completely different, politically, economically and in almost every way. This lot of criminals hijacked the White Hose and since have proceeded to blacken the reputation and standing of a once great country.

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Take the piss if you like, jh! I’m actually trying to present a serious legal argument.

Actually, if you’re not into serious argument, or at least humour that is funny, why don’t you piss off to Key-Wee-blog.

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jh – torture CANNOT be justified under any circumstances. You say if you had knowledge that they were involved before you tortured them then it would be OK. What sick mind thought that one up. First you ensure they are’ guilty’ then you torture them – what, for fun !!!!!!!

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Here’s a laugh Condaleeza Rice arrests Keith Locke (and Toad).

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