by frog
Everyone seems to be talking about the $5000 reward being offered for the citizen’s arrest of United States Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice during her visit to the country this weekend. If I were Condi I’d be worried the arrest could be led by Winston Peters. He’ll be one of the few to get close enough to effect an arrest, and he seems to be burning up his other sources of donations at the moment, so $5000 would probably be welcome!
Published in Society & Culture by frog on Fri, July 25th, 2008
Tags: citizen's arrest, Condoleezza Rice, Frog, frogblog, green party, greens, new zealand, winston peters
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
typical left wing studant idiots
I hope they try and the US secret service deal to a few of them
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Relax panda! (and please try to THINK before coming out with a statement like that!)
Those who you call “left wing student idiots” know what they are talking about in this regard.
If Condoleeza Rice and and others of the GW Bush Administration (including GW Bush) had been part of the German Administration in 1945, they would have been tried and found guilty of War Crimes for their actions … by the USA.
If the US Secret Service did “try to deal with a few of them” within Aotearoa New Zealand’s territory
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There’s been quite a lot of comments similar to Panda’s on this topic over at Key Wee Blog – arrogantly and consecendingly putting down the students for what is no more than a stunt designed to highlight Rice’s role in approving practices such as torture that are outlawed under the Geneva Convention.
But as IdiotSavant says over there, she “oversaw and participated in a specific decision to torture a specific, identified individual: al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah. This makes her guilty not only of grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions, but also of conspiracy to torture. And both of these are crimes under NZ law, over which New Zealand (along with all other civilised countries) exerts universal jurisdiction (see the Geneva Conventions Act 1958 and Crimes of Torture Act 1989).”
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Woops I posted the above before finishing the last sentence, which should read:
If the US Secret Service did “try to deal with a few of them? (ie citizens of this country) within Aotearoa New Zealand’s territory, the implications of that would be a VERY scary for us, and in World terms.
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If you did get anywhere near Rice, the US Secret Service would hurt or kill you.
I hope no one is silly enough to try this.
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I think you could make a case for torture in the case of people like AL Qaeda, provided you have some conclusive evidence that they are involved in the first place. After all they are not normal operatives; they are the sort who would poison wells or cut pilots throats and fly plane loads of innocents into buildings…
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the implications of that would be a VERY scary for us, and in World terms.
Hmmmmmmmmmm, the image of The Mouse That Roared comes to mind, and I don’t think we can take on the United States National Debt! On the other hand, if they attack and win, we become a state, and a whole pile of problems vanish!
Finally – if you can make a case for torture, they can make a case for their type of terrorism as well! Go read about the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, who manage to do exactly that, with dire consequences for non-combatants!
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jh said: I think you could make a case for torture in the case of people like AL Qaeda
No jh, you cant. Strings has got it right here when he says “if you can make a case for torture, they can make a case for their type of terrorism as well”.
If you say it is okay for the US Government to torture Al Qaeda operatives, then that puts the US Government on the same moral footing as Al Qaeda themselves.
Crimes such as torture and genocide must be outlawed completely – by anyone and against anyone.
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Well, jh, there is ample proof of George and Co’s crimes. They are not normal operatives either, but the sort of people who invade other countries that are no threat to them and bomb innocents in their houses. They won’t admit their crimes either, so I guess you’d say they should be tortured too. But that is crap. Not just because it is well known that torture doesn’t work – just ask the once tortured John McCain, who used to tell the truth about torture until he decided he had to pander to his loony party (is there anything more pathetic?), but also because of the damage it does to a democratic society built on the rule of law. This is a very sad sign of the end of the American experiment. May it not take the rest of us down as well.
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As usual the left wing expect America to fight a war for all of us with one arm tied behind its back
now no one in their right mind is blind to Americas hyprocricy in certain issues but taken as whole without them the world would be a far worse place
WW1?
Battle of Midway anyone? Battle of the Coral Sea ?
Anybody remember Communism ?? oh I forgot this is a green blog most of the readers still think that was a great idea! ,Go Stalin
How about living in a country with radical Islam ? anybody want to try that that ?
try having a nice safe alternative view point then
IMHO you should all thank your lucky stars the Americans even bother with the outside world
look at a country they haven’t intervened in dose Zimbabwe ring a bell
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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is there a god?
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When you say torture doesn’t work it throws things in a different light, but if there was a disorienting drug or something maybe. It is more a matter of political strategy (winning minds).
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Who was the green MP who nodded and applauded Annette Sykes speech when she spoke of her elation as the planes hit the world trade center?
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Panda said: As usual the left wing expect America to fight a war for all of us with one arm tied behind its back…
Panda, that’s where we differ. I don’t expect America to fight a war for me at all.
Unless it is a war that has been properly sanctioned by the UN as justified on the basis of being an intervention of last resort in instances of genocide or the gross and systematic violation of human rights.
Otherwise, no war is justifiable, including the War on [of] Terror.
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Ideally we could rely on the UN Toad but they are pretty useless. As far as the war in Iraq goes most people recognise that there has been a set up between powerful elites in the Middle East and Western powers at expense of the populace of those countries.It isn’t certain that the Bush regime new that there were no wmd.
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“While elements of the left in the US and Europe are calling on Western democracies to abandon Afghanistan and Iraq to Taleban and Al-Qaeda, and surrender to the Khomeinists in Iran, new alliances are emerging against the jihadists in the region.
What is interesting is that in much of the Middle East, most notably Afghanistan and Iraq, the left is part of these new alliances.”
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=94405&d=31&m=3&y=200 7
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Unless it is a war that has been properly sanctioned by the UN as justified on the basis of being an intervention of last resort in instances of genocide or the gross and systematic violation of human rights.
You really expect the UN to declare war on radical Islam ha
what about my other points frog ??
as you may have gathered blind Anti Americanism by the left is something that really annoys me
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Let’s, just for a moment, look at the “middle east” and AMerica, and see what’s actually happening.
1. The monarchies in the middle east (essentially those countries that have vast minieral reserves under their sand,) are concerned about the potential for their countries to be over-run by states that have an immoderate interpretation of the Koran.
2. They have also been concerned about the potential for dictatorships to seek to over-run their countries to sequester their mineral wealth.
3. These ‘monarchs’ have, between them, budget surplusses of about three billion a day
4. The USA’s current government debt is circa US$7 TRILLION
5. The USA has a budget (and cash) deficit of about a Billion US Dollars a day which it finances on 90 and 180 day bonds
7. The pace of auctions for USA government bonds is daily, at about 26 billion per day in ‘rollovers’ and 1 billion in new money (see 4.)
8. Many other ‘western’ countries are also operating significant budget and/ or cash deficits (NZ has a cash deficit within a budget surplus at the moment which they have to finance on similar periods to the USA.
9. The main source of cash (and hence roll-overs) is the middle east monarchies (MEMs).
10. If the MEMs don’t roll over the USA’s bonds, the counrty will be immediately technically bankrupt, and have to “print” vast amounts of currency to repay what it ows – EVERY DAY.
11. Technical bankruptcy of the USA will cause its currency to devalue faster than a hooker’s virginity
12. Significant US$ devaluation will cause the crash of world capital and commodity markets and the end of capitalism AS WE CURRENTLY UNDERSTAND IT
13. Collapse of the USA will leave a wide door open for India, CHina or possibly Russia to become the dominant force in capital and commodity markets
14. Americans would hate to revert to the status of Britain in the second half of the 20th Century (a has-been world power), and so will do whatever it takes to keep the MEMs happy and ‘on-side’, including fighting their battles for them
The UN does not enter into this calculation as it is not and, in current circumstances, never will be a true world power. It has never managed to achieve it’s main purpose (ensuring a multi-national war doesn’t take place ever again,) and probably never will.
Any questions?
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“How about living in a country with radical Islam ? anybody want to try that that ?”
You mean Saudi Arabia?
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No Right Turn treats the issue a little less facetiously than I and poses a question: Will the police enforce the law and arrest this war criminal?
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Sam B
Been there, lived in Riyadh. Great place. No radical Islam practiced there, they are Sunnis and content to live and let live within the tenets of their morality and societal norms – just like we are!
While you may not agree with what they regard as socially acceptable, they have the same problem with you. Indeed, things that were socially acceptable here in New Zealand 40 years ago are not regarded by our society today as acceptable! The old saying ‘when in Rome do as Romans do’ has a solid base. As someone who has worked extensively with immigrants, from non-Anglo-Saxon-based societies, I believe I do my bit to help people come to grips with what we ‘today’ accept, as opposed to what their countries ‘today’, as did ours ‘before’, do.
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“No radical Islam practiced there, they are Sunnis and content to live and let live within the tenets of their morality and societal norms – just like we are!”
If Wahabiism isn’t radical what is? I guess that makes the Iranians laid back moderates – you know letting women drive and vote and all that hippie new age stuff.
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“Iran has the 28th largest economy in the world but ranks only 71st in per capita gross domestic product (as expressed in purchasing power). It ranks with countries like Belarus or Panama. Part of the reason is inefficiencies in the Iranian oil industry, the result of government policies. But there is a deeper geographic problem. Iran has a huge population mostly located in rugged mountains. Mountainous regions are rarely prosperous. The cost of transportation makes the development of industry difficult. Sparsely populated mountain regions are generally poor. Heavily populated mountain regions, when they exist, are much poorer.
Iran’s geography and large population make substantial improvements in its economic life difficult. Unlike underpopulated and less geographically challenged countries such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, Iran cannot enjoy any shift in the underlying weakness of its economy brought on by higher oil prices and more production. The absence of inhabitable plains means that any industrial plant must develop in regions where the cost of infrastructure tends to undermine the benefits. Oil keeps Iran from sinking even deeper, but it alone cannot catapult Iran out of its condition. ”
http://www.investorsinsight.com/blogs/john_mauldins_outside_the_box/ar chive/2008/07/24/the-geopolitics-of-iran.aspx
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Keith Locke put out a media release on this late this afternoon:
I think Keith makes a valid point. Although Ms Rice may be able to invoke diplomatic immunity to avoid any proceedings, there would be some embarassment in doing so. And she can always rely on the tort of malicious prosecution to take legal action for damages herself against any prosecution brought without a substantive basis in evidence and law.
Note s 13 of the International Crimes and International Criminal Court Act 2000:
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# Sam Buchanan Says:
July 25th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
> If Wahabiism isn’t radical what is? I guess that makes the Iranians laid back moderates – you know letting women drive and vote and all that hippie new age stuff.
and letting men vote, too!
Political correctness gone mad, by Saudi Arabian standards. As far as I know, Saudi Arabia is the only country which doesn’t even pretend to have elections.
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Keith Locke didn’t arrest Pol Pot did he?
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Here’s a laugh Condaleeza Rice arrests Keith Locke (and Toad).
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jh – torture CANNOT be justified under any circumstances. You say if you had knowledge that they were involved before you tortured them then it would be OK. What sick mind thought that one up. First you ensure they are’ guilty’ then you torture them – what, for fun !!!!!!!
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Take the piss if you like, jh! I’m actually trying to present a serious legal argument.
Actually, if you’re not into serious argument, or at least humour that is funny, why don’t you piss off to Key-Wee-blog.
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Panda – you speak of a US before it became a rogue State. I knew the States well some 50 years ago and it was completely different, politically, economically and in almost every way. This lot of criminals hijacked the White Hose and since have proceeded to blacken the reputation and standing of a once great country.
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jh – IT IS CERTAIN that George Dubya knew there weren’t WMD. Know your facts please
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Strings – your 1 and 2 above. Most Middle Eastern countries ARE Dictatorships. Only relatively few are Monarchies. These Monarchies are that in name only, Take the most reprehensible, Saudi Arabia. It is more like a grand mafia protectorate. The ruling family keeps it’s dominant position by a mixture of payoffs, fraud, repression, and religious terror. I’ll come back later when I’ve had a chance to absorb your rather ill-informed analysis.
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Sam Buchanan – I’ve lived in Saudi, for 5 years and no, it’s no fun.
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Strings – no radical Islam – you MUST be joking. What about helicopter gun-ships attacking Sunnis in the East and wiping out many villages. Oh, and they are not Sunnis they are Wahabi’s. An entirely different and more sinister type of ‘Islam’. Actually anti-Islamic in my view, but that’s for another place.
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Strings – as for the rest of your above post – it is mainly an economic/financial analysis and largely accurate, however, the US has only itself to blame for getting into that position in the first place. If they had begun 35 years ago to seriously address their growing dependence on Middle East oil they may have saved themselves their present bind.
They could have developed alternative sources of energy but didn’t mainly because successive governments have been in thrall to vested interests in Big Oil & others such as the large banks and of course the Military- Industrial Complex. At least the two present contenders seem to acknowledge this fact and have said they will ‘do something about’ the situation, but I won’t hold my breath.
Yes, the inevitable collapse of the US economy will hurt many millions, if not billions of people across the planet, but unfortunately it is now far too late to avert that. Wise politicians everywhere are planning for that event right now.
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Q:
What was known to U.S. intelligence and Congress about WMDs in Iraq before the vote to go to war?
A:
Senior U.S. intelligence officials believed, incorrectly, that Iraq had stockpiles of chemical and germ weapons and was developing nuclear weapons. They also agreed Saddam Hussein wouldn’t give such weapons to terrorists unless attacked. Few members of Congress read the full 92-page report with all its qualifications and dissents.
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/what_was_known_to_us_intelligenc e_and.html
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# bigblukiwi Says:
July 25th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
jh – torture CANNOT be justified under any circumstances. You say if you had knowledge that they were involved before you tortured them then it would be OK. What sick mind thought that one up. First you ensure they are’ guilty’ then you torture them – what, for fun !!!!!!!
………..
but you need to find out where the bomb is etc. (it’s a common theme at the movies)
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im sure that there are afew in gaza who think ‘terrorism’ can be justified, same goes for the whitehouse. only difference is those from gaza are alot more cost effective
.
what about nagasaki and the bombings of german cities? they fit terrorism perfictly, but are generaly accepted to have been desirable, the only difference is they were purportrated by ‘us’ not against ‘us’.
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“It can certainly be argued that both these things have happened in Iraq, under the Secretary of State’s watch.?
What a joke from Locke.. Condi Rice wasn’t Sec State until 2005. All matters were under UN observation by then.
This isn’t about Human Rights violations, this is about anti USA and taking a hostage like Rice.
When I read comments like this: Sapient Says: “what about nagasaki and the bombings of german cities? they fit terrorism perfictly?
It really reinforces how anti American, anti Kiwi, anti western,- the Green support base and leadership is.
Toad says; “Actually, if you’re not into serious argument, or at least humour that is funny, why don’t you piss off to Key-Wee-blog.?
Trouble is Toad, we run into you there almost 24/7
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patrick,
it wasint a peice of anti-american sentiment, it was mearly a point that one persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter; its just a case of euphmism to call any use of force against civilians anything else. and for the record i do beleive both terrorism and torture to be justified at times, but sanctioning them for any incident can easily slip into misapplicaton.
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glad you clarified that sapient
I was about to wade in boots and all
what stopped me was the disbelief that anyone would be ignorant enough to equate WW2 allied action with terrorism
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FactCheck is pretty good but in this case is examining the wrong document and an incomplete set of facts. That Intelligence Estimate was produced only after a number of experienced intelligence analysts were transferred from the middle-east desks where they had been working for years (or resigned in disgust) and replaced by students of the Cheney school of middle-east politics who produced EXACTLY those opinions that Cheney wanted produced.
I watched the news, INCLUDING the international news. I saw the activity in the intelligence community and I predicted 6 months before the invasion that there was nothing there to be found and nothing would be found. I’ve seen this mob in action… and there’s nothing that compares in history that actually resulted in or was a result of, an actual democratic process.
It is one of the reasons I am here rather than still there.
That said our students are doing what students everywhere have always done… going “over the top” in applying morals and logic to politics which partakes as little as possible of either.
respectfully
BJ
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Arrest:Bush & Rice USA, Austrailian / UK PM’s Howard & Blair /China and test Human rights law.
“Why Obama Scares the Hell out of me” (8 minutes approx) http://youtube.com/watch?v=OW1p56ahlio
“A second look at the Federal Reserve” (audio only, 1/7 approx 10 minutes each 70 minutes)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=F3TAh1gy6r
Nobel scientist issues warning on global warming He said warming beyond that would pose “a risk that is not acceptable to society.”
http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-32875920080406?pageNum ber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
I feel the links and book mentioned above are most important for understanding politics and money. My view is that the creation of credit needs to fund saving the planet and its people rather than an international tax support private banks making money from created money
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http://www.3news.co.nz/Video/Politics/tabid/370/articleID/64508/cat/52 5/Default.aspx#video
Does have a lot of Winston’n'Condi show, but the beginning shows student activists at the protest.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0807/S00325.htm
Wellington’s VUWSA wades in to support the protesters
http://indymedia.org.nz/feature/display/71877/index.php
http://indymedia.org.nz/newswire/display/75778/index.php
useful background and updates at Indymedia
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If some of you want to declare Saudi, and the Saud family, radical, then go ahead (and do the same for the Pope and Catholicism – historically they were the worse by far. Actually, you probably approve of torturing a witch by dunking her in water for 10 minutes – if she lives she’s guilty if she dies she’s innocent! Good precedent for Guantanamo).
The reality of the Saud family is that they are monarchs. Just like the Kings and Queens of England, up to the point of National Bankruptcy, they don’t think there needs to be an election to appoint them, it’s done by genetics, so their denial of democracy is just that – there is no democracy in Saudi Arabia and no pretence.
As for radicalism. The Sauds have been the most stable and dependable Middle East leaders since the 60s, and have managed to ensure some sense stays in OPEC despite many calls for wild action. If you ever meet one of the “senior” princes (yes there are a lot of princes, but many extended families have hundreds of cousin related people – ask my Sri Lankan wife who can’t even keep count of all hers) you would know that their ‘political agenda’ is peace in their country, stability in the commodities markets and an ever improving standard of living & quality of life for ‘their’ people.
I met the current king when we were much younger men than we are today. He was a man anyone would be proud to know. He maintains his heritage – well so do I. He lives by the moral and societal norms of that heritage well, so do I. He does everything he can to stop anyone from taking what is his – well, so do I.
Arabs, of all faiths, are different to westerners, so are Asians, and all other broad racial categorisations. This is based on history and the realities of life in their region of the world. There is an unbelievable arrogance in far to large a proportion of Anglo Saxon heritaged people, that ‘the western way is the right way’, and everyone else should conform! However, there is little in our way of life that is uniquely ours! The arts – you must be joking, the Japanese and Chinese set the standards before we were out of mud huts. Sports – go see how Africa defined almost all of them. Politics – you’re joking aren’t you, the Chinese dynasties were hotbeds of politics when we had village squires demanding brides virginity. Science – Sri Lanka had a national water supply and irrigation complex before the Romans started bating out of rivers. The list could go on forever; but perhaps the most telling is in Free Markets and Trade, something the Chinese and Arabs had when Abraham was still a twinkle in his fathers eye!
Before condemning, learn the facts, then you won’t torture someone because you “know” they’re guilty even if they haven’t admitted it and you don’t have evidence to prove it.
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Ha!! I see the “Settler Government” helped Rice escape.
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