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	<title>Comments on: Get ready for the last oil war</title>
	<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/</link>
	<description>hopping along the corridors of power</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Andrew W</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50313</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50313</guid>
		<description>"human use of energy from non-solar sources can only rise about 20 fold (relative to 1968 levels) before this creates a Greenhouse Effect."

 What's your reference for that claim jgg?

 First, a greenhouse effect is the trapping of IR radiation by GH gases.
 Second, we woulf need to produce something like 1 Watt/m2 over the whole of Earths surface to equal the enhancement that's calculated for GHG's, ie 1 mW/km2, ie 500,000,000 mW over Earths entire surface, which works out at around 750 kW per person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;human use of energy from non-solar sources can only rise about 20 fold (relative to 1968 levels) before this creates a Greenhouse Effect.&#8221;</p>
<p> What&#8217;s your reference for that claim jgg?</p>
<p> First, a greenhouse effect is the trapping of IR radiation by GH gases.<br />
 Second, we woulf need to produce something like 1 Watt/m2 over the whole of Earths surface to equal the enhancement that&#8217;s calculated for GHG&#8217;s, ie 1 mW/km2, ie 500,000,000 mW over Earths entire surface, which works out at around 750 kW per person.</p>
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		<title>By: andrew</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50304</link>
		<dc:creator>andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50304</guid>
		<description>what about geothermal jgg?  that involves taking heat locked below the earth's surface &#38; releasing it up top... is that enough to make a difference?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what about geothermal jgg?  that involves taking heat locked below the earth&#8217;s surface &amp; releasing it up top&#8230; is that enough to make a difference?</p>
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		<title>By: libertyscott</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50286</link>
		<dc:creator>libertyscott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50286</guid>
		<description>How morally blind can one be to treat the Islamic Republic of Iran obtaining nuclear weapons, breaching IAEA safeguards as not being a "crisis"?  I guess a state that preaches global jihad, has long actively funded, trained and supported terrorists in the Middle East and Europe (the IRA until recently), wishes the destruction of Israel on one level, and on the other level runs a authoritarian state that executes political opponents,  executes rape victims for seducing the rapist and sends children into war ought to have nuclear weapons right? I mean, it's a bit too much to expect a party full of people who rightfully protested over Mururoa nuclear tests, by a peaceful friendly ally, to protest the Iranian embassy about its pursuit of nuclear weapons isn't it?

The world is safer with Iran not having nuclear weapons which it could deploy or allow terrorist groups to use, and would be safer still if the Islamist regime were overthrown.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How morally blind can one be to treat the Islamic Republic of Iran obtaining nuclear weapons, breaching IAEA safeguards as not being a &#8220;crisis&#8221;?  I guess a state that preaches global jihad, has long actively funded, trained and supported terrorists in the Middle East and Europe (the IRA until recently), wishes the destruction of Israel on one level, and on the other level runs a authoritarian state that executes political opponents,  executes rape victims for seducing the rapist and sends children into war ought to have nuclear weapons right? I mean, it&#8217;s a bit too much to expect a party full of people who rightfully protested over Mururoa nuclear tests, by a peaceful friendly ally, to protest the Iranian embassy about its pursuit of nuclear weapons isn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>The world is safer with Iran not having nuclear weapons which it could deploy or allow terrorist groups to use, and would be safer still if the Islamist regime were overthrown.</p>
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		<title>By: jgg</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50270</link>
		<dc:creator>jgg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50270</guid>
		<description>Hi 

Before anyone gets excited about fusion, a point made about 40 years ago was that holding CO2 constant, human use of energy from non-solar sources can only rise about 20 fold (relative to 1968 levels) before this creates a Greenhouse Effect due to increased production of waste heat that is then trapped.  This is not because the amount of waste heat is large in relation to total insolation, but because its source is not insolation and hence it rapidly creates an imbalance.  This is not uncommon in dynamically stable energy cycles.

Ultimately sustainability is about the rate and scale of energy and material throughput relative to natural systems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi </p>
<p>Before anyone gets excited about fusion, a point made about 40 years ago was that holding CO2 constant, human use of energy from non-solar sources can only rise about 20 fold (relative to 1968 levels) before this creates a Greenhouse Effect due to increased production of waste heat that is then trapped.  This is not because the amount of waste heat is large in relation to total insolation, but because its source is not insolation and hence it rapidly creates an imbalance.  This is not uncommon in dynamically stable energy cycles.</p>
<p>Ultimately sustainability is about the rate and scale of energy and material throughput relative to natural systems.</p>
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		<title>By: Sapient</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50265</link>
		<dc:creator>Sapient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50265</guid>
		<description>there is always accelerator driven reactors, they make use of a significantly wider range of possible fuels, have almost zilch chances of melt-down due to the nature of their reaction and can be used to break down fission waste from other reactors and thus decrease the lifetime of nuclear waste; I beleive BJ brought them up awhile ago on the forum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>there is always accelerator driven reactors, they make use of a significantly wider range of possible fuels, have almost zilch chances of melt-down due to the nature of their reaction and can be used to break down fission waste from other reactors and thus decrease the lifetime of nuclear waste; I beleive BJ brought them up awhile ago on the forum.</p>
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		<title>By: greengeek</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50257</link>
		<dc:creator>greengeek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 07:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50257</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;BluePeter Says: We’ll be using fission reactors in our lifetimes. The price is coming down (see pebble bed reactors), reactors are smaller and safer, and the public will demand cheap energy.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Both oil and uranium fuels share similar outcomes.

So long as we all rely on fuels that are finite/expensive/localised and/or highly sought after we will continue to have wars.

The only way out is to choose safe and renewable fuels, and learn to keep our populations and energy demands low enough to live comfortably within that energy capacity. (but will the public ever accept it...?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>BluePeter Says: We’ll be using fission reactors in our lifetimes. The price is coming down (see pebble bed reactors), reactors are smaller and safer, and the public will demand cheap energy.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Both oil and uranium fuels share similar outcomes.</p>
<p>So long as we all rely on fuels that are finite/expensive/localised and/or highly sought after we will continue to have wars.</p>
<p>The only way out is to choose safe and renewable fuels, and learn to keep our populations and energy demands low enough to live comfortably within that energy capacity. (but will the public ever accept it&#8230;?)</p>
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		<title>By: frog</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50196</link>
		<dc:creator>frog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 20:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50196</guid>
		<description>BP - get your technology straight. I could see fusion reactors here in NZ, in a far distant future, but never conventional nuclear fission. Unfortunately, fusion has always been 'just ten years away', a bit like carbon capture and storage. I think we'll see CCS long before fusion, which is unfortunate. Fusion is about the only tech that could potentially help us overcome the natural limits of the petri dish we call earth. (At least in the petulant, wasteful way we live now)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BP - get your technology straight. I could see fusion reactors here in NZ, in a far distant future, but never conventional nuclear fission. Unfortunately, fusion has always been &#8216;just ten years away&#8217;, a bit like carbon capture and storage. I think we&#8217;ll see CCS long before fusion, which is unfortunate. Fusion is about the only tech that could potentially help us overcome the natural limits of the petri dish we call earth. (At least in the petulant, wasteful way we live now)</p>
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		<title>By: BluePeter</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50187</link>
		<dc:creator>BluePeter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50187</guid>
		<description>"nuclear will never be a rational economic choice for New Zealand"

Never? That is hardly a rational statement. 

We'll be using fission reactors in our lifetimes. The price is coming down (see pebble bed reactors), reactors are smaller and safer, and the public will demand cheap energy. 

It 'aint the 50s....

tinyurl.com/2uzvg6

"General Fusion hopes to create small fusion reactors that cost around $50 million a piece and generate roughly 100 megawatts allowing for roughly 4 cent / kwh electricity. That's about the same cost as coal."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;nuclear will never be a rational economic choice for New Zealand&#8221;</p>
<p>Never? That is hardly a rational statement. </p>
<p>We&#8217;ll be using fission reactors in our lifetimes. The price is coming down (see pebble bed reactors), reactors are smaller and safer, and the public will demand cheap energy. </p>
<p>It &#8216;aint the 50s&#8230;.</p>
<p>tinyurl.com/2uzvg6</p>
<p>&#8220;General Fusion hopes to create small fusion reactors that cost around $50 million a piece and generate roughly 100 megawatts allowing for roughly 4 cent / kwh electricity. That&#8217;s about the same cost as coal.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50180</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:35:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50180</guid>
		<description>Artyone asks "Funny thing is that the european powers have had nuclear arsenals for the past fifty odd years and haven’t managed to chuck them at anyone so why is it that we think the Islamic nations will do so?"

Think middle eastern nations rather than Islamic nations and four differences from Europe become apparent.
1. Many of the borders between middles eastern countries follow natural barriers such as deserts or mountain ranges. This creates the perception that fallout can be contained to the target nation or will affect only a small less inhabited region of the striking nation. That was never a consideration in Europe.
2. For most of those 50 years Europe was sandwiched between to MAD superpowers. If any euro nation nuked a neighbour it would almost certainly have been nuked or invaded by one or both of the superpowers in a preprogrammed emrgency response kneejerk defensive reaction.
3. Europe had fresh memories of the devastion of the WWII firebombings to galvanise public opposition to such action aginst any neighbour except in defence against invasion from the USSR.
4. Most european wars in the last few hundred years have been nationalistic or for "leibesraum". A nuclear war is so obviously self defeating in that context that even the dumbest grand standing politician would never advocate it.

Fixating on religious differences between the west and the middle east diverts attention from more important political, economic and social differences that drive the conflicts both within the middle east and between the middle east and the west.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Artyone asks &#8220;Funny thing is that the european powers have had nuclear arsenals for the past fifty odd years and haven’t managed to chuck them at anyone so why is it that we think the Islamic nations will do so?&#8221;</p>
<p>Think middle eastern nations rather than Islamic nations and four differences from Europe become apparent.<br />
1. Many of the borders between middles eastern countries follow natural barriers such as deserts or mountain ranges. This creates the perception that fallout can be contained to the target nation or will affect only a small less inhabited region of the striking nation. That was never a consideration in Europe.<br />
2. For most of those 50 years Europe was sandwiched between to MAD superpowers. If any euro nation nuked a neighbour it would almost certainly have been nuked or invaded by one or both of the superpowers in a preprogrammed emrgency response kneejerk defensive reaction.<br />
3. Europe had fresh memories of the devastion of the WWII firebombings to galvanise public opposition to such action aginst any neighbour except in defence against invasion from the USSR.<br />
4. Most european wars in the last few hundred years have been nationalistic or for &#8220;leibesraum&#8221;. A nuclear war is so obviously self defeating in that context that even the dumbest grand standing politician would never advocate it.</p>
<p>Fixating on religious differences between the west and the middle east diverts attention from more important political, economic and social differences that drive the conflicts both within the middle east and between the middle east and the west.</p>
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		<title>By: hmmmmmm</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50176</link>
		<dc:creator>hmmmmmm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/07/20/get-ready-for-the-last-oil-war/#comment-50176</guid>
		<description>Meanwhile....

"United States Supports Saudi Arabian Civil Nuclear Program"

http://www.america.gov/st/peacesec-english/2008/May/20080516160353idybeekcm0.3394586.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meanwhile&#8230;.</p>
<p>&#8220;United States Supports Saudi Arabian Civil Nuclear Program&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.america.gov/st/peacesec-english/2008/May/20080516160353idybeekcm0.3394586.html" >http://www.america.gov/st/peacesec-english/2008/May/20080516160353idyb eekcm0.3394586.html</a></p>
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