Valis Says:
June 6th, 2008 at 2:53 pm

But the real point is that it is the agreement that was made and Greens think that should be honoured. It always gets me that right wingers are so into contract law but can’t see that that’s what this is about.
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But what sort of “agreement” was made and by whom? By comparing it with simple contract law you are comparing apples and pears. The key point is whether or not the the British side really intended (agreed to) tino rangitiratanga or had no choice. In which case they were acting for themselves (wanting to go home early) and if so it puts the whole thing in a different light.

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Can I get this straight? The Greens don’t conform to simplistic definitions like left/right wing, but all right wingers do?

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Re tiriti, jh, several points. I’m not surprised you have trouble with the concept of indigenous sovereignty if you think it is about throwing spears. What a shameful comment. I’ve always been surprised that there wasn’t more violence from Maori. When the shoe has been on the other foot, Europeans have never hesitated to fight for their land.

Greens do happen to think Te Tiriti is workable if we would only try in good faith. But the real point is that it is the agreement that was made and Greens think that should be honoured. It always gets me that right wingers are so into contract law but can’t see that that’s what this is about. So you are wrong to think Greens see Maori as superior. They just believe in self-determination, which requires a certain willingness to butt out a bit and let them make their decisions.

Now, if you think it can’t work, fine, that’s a valid point of view that needs to be thrashed out, but you need to take it to the tiriti partner and discuss it. You will never get anywhere with an aggrieved party by just saying get over it. You have to acknowledge their rights first and that means the rights guaranteed by Te Tiriti.

Re far left, not denying an overlap, but know any honest comparison would not result in the Greens looking at all like communists.

Haven’t seen Bruce Sheppard’s blog so don’t know what your talking about there. An example would be good.

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jh, that Green policy shares some common ground with Alliance policy does not mean they’ve been taken over – a trivial fact that shouldn’t have to be stated. And accusing Greens of being communists is just plain stupid and done only as a scare tactic.
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The far left didn’t disappear with the soviet Union; they represent a behavioral element around since before we lived in caves and have been attracted by the fuzzy vision of the Green party [that's my impression].

“The actual big lie is that unlimited growth is compatible with environmentalism. As both Labour and the Nats fundamentally depend on this lie, it is not a simple left/right issue. Of course there’s even less space between the right and the greedy right on this point.”

That’s true but I note Bruce Sheppard (for example ) musing on his blog about values other than our usual economic measures as measures of progress and, as this sort of thinking increases the “funny stuff” in the green party will prevent wider support (and better policy development) for sustainability.

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Only if we accept that tino rangitiratanga is maintained. Tino Rangitiratanga isn’t Tai Chi or Bahai it is what happens when the natives come out and throw spears. Te tiriti has become the big national myth for as long as it was never examined closely (the historical circumstances) or tested. Only you people think it is a workable (stable) basis for a nation.
You people are promoting a set of beliefs where Maori are superior beings: wise spiritual kaitiaki who never rape a resource and will allways allow Pakeha onto their beaches. The idea that ownership was a foriegn concept to Maori is pure semantics… it amounts to the same thing: the ability to control. Yes some of the time Maori will be there smiling in the background, but over time power will consolidate in one form or another. More particularly it won’t feel like our (as in everybody’s) country.

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No, jh. Te Tiriti guarantees the right to be here both for tangata whenua and tangata tiriti.

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Toad unwisely says:
“Sure she will, jh. And enlighten you on many other things as well. She is a very wise woman, our Catherine.”
…………….
I prefer Michael King (and Chris Trotter for that matter). William Shakespear isn’t too silly either as in the Merchant of Venice when Shylock demands a pound of flesh and Portia tells him he mustn’t draw blood. Only your lot are warped enough to believe (for example) that people with Maori ancestry have more right to be here than those who don’t.

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“Are you saying “The Greens aren’t a left-wing partyâ€?? How about “we’re a social justice partyâ€?… guided by the charter (which we know how to interpret despite life complexities)? I think the big lie of the Green Party is the notion expressed that environmentalism and the left are natural partners to the exclusion of the right (with the exception of the greedy right).”

jh, that Green policy shares some common ground with Alliance policy does not mean they’ve been taken over – a trivial fact that shouldn’t have to be stated. And accusing Greens of being communists is just plain stupid and done only as a scare tactic.

The actual big lie is that unlimited growth is compatible with environmentalism. As both Labour and the Nats fundamentally depend on this lie, it is not a simple left/right issue. Of course there’s even less space between the right and the greedy right on this point.

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Stuey, LOL. Yes I should be more careful with my characterisations of the right. Maybe my time spent reading the comments at KB has given me the incorrect idea that KB represents the right. Several of their commenters post here too.

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jh said:

frog said: Catherine is ambitious to be an MP and she will make a great one. She has narrowly missed out two elections in a row and now this. Her maiden speech is going to rock the house.

You mean she’ll explain tino rangitiratanga as the foundation of Aotearoa so we know what is required of us as tangata tiriti etc?

Sure she will, jh. And enlighten you on many other things as well. She is a very wise woman, our Catherine.

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BB We had democracy in NZ, YOU voted to remove it

What democracy was that ? $1 = 1 vote ?

And, how do YOU know what I voted for ? Have YOU been tampering with election data ? That can land you in trouble with the law young man.

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jh, you make the mistake of thinking there is only one axis to place political parties along: namely left – right.

What about another axis: Sustainability, or try another one: Liberal vs Authoritarian.

When you start to explore these you’ll stop calling the Greens a socialist or left wing party. They’re both inaccurate monikers.

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“As for the Alliance and communists, you clearly don’t understand either, or you wouldn’t spout such nonsense.”
……………….
Are you saying “The Greens aren’t a left-wing party”? How about “we’re a social justice party”… guided by the charter (which we know how to interpret despite life complexities)? I think the big lie of the Green Party is the notion expressed that environmentalism and the left are natural partners to the exclusion of the right (with the exception of the greedy right).

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So how does Frogblog rate then?

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“So I guess you are another Greenie who feels a tad embarrassed by this cynical manipulation of our electoral system.

How do you feel about your party being hijacked by the Alliance and the communists?”

I can’t be embarrassed by something that hasn’t happened. Since your memory is so short, my poinits from earlier today:

“It is simply laughable to accuse the Greens of cynical list manipulation. For that to be true, one would have to show an overriding public interest that the list as party members ranked at the last election was sacrosanct in every detail and that those who voted Green were somehow being short changed now. I’m somehow sure that bb is not terribly concerned about Green voters being robbed of appropriate representation, so this is just another one of his straw men.

Let us not forget that this has occurred only because of the death of Rod Donald, which then elevated Russel into the co-leadership. If the Greens had slavishly adhered to their list, I can just see the comments from bb and others who’d rightfully be criticising their political naivety.”

As for the Alliance and communists, you clearly don’t understand either, or you wouldn’t spout such nonsense.

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fastbike, I feel it is unfair of you to say that right wingers who complain about this “do not like democracy”. The right wingers who complain about this do so because they are seeking to use our forum to advance their agenda. They believe that the tiny numbers of people who read their comments will have their opinions swayed by their argument. Yeah right! They are deluded, but they don’t hate democracy.

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Frog says:

Catherine is ambitious to be an MP and she will make a great one. She has narrowly missed out two elections in a row and now this. Her maiden speech is going to rock the house.
……………..
You mean she’ll explain tino rangitiratanga as the foundation of Aotearoa so we know what is required of us as tangata tiriti etc?

“I explained that as a Pakeha I had a very limited relationship with the foreshore and seabed but “loved the beachâ€? generally. This did not compare well to the 1000 years of whakapapa and site specific responsibilities that Betty and her hapu maintain to this day.”

“He explained how from the archaeological layers they uncovered at the Port of Gisborne, you can see people arriving, establishing manawhenua and adapting to population expansion from within their cultural framework, and then the violent imposition of Pakeha power in that place. Gordon challenged the committee to re assess their limited understanding of the term “ownershipâ€? and to recognise that the Bill was a continuation of Crown violence based on a crude and absurd underestanding of the wordâ€?ownershipâ€? He described the process as part of “democratheidâ€? a word he has coined which describes the majority imposition of racist policy in a democrarcy. He also described the consequences as not civil war in the conventional sense but a long term proliferation of misery, poverty, misunderstanding and injustice.”

“The other MPs except for Tariana and Metiria, trotted out all the favourite myths about “they killed the moaâ€? etc ” [fastest mass extinction of other species in human history according to archaeologists*]

“As we left the room and the day ended Russell Fairbrother spent 10 minutes talking to Gordon and conceding that the ownership concept in the Bill could lead to violence. We are not holding our breath for change”
http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/other7890.html

*The moas are in any case long gone. ”Yes, this was a blitzkrieg,” Dr. Diamond wrote in Science. ”Yes, a few people could and did kill every moa.”
http://tinyurl.com/47uw8j

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BB, the Alliance is a dead duck. Give it a rest. Admittedly, Russel Norman stayed in the Alliance for a short while after the Greens left, but soon saw the error of his ways.

The Greens entered the Alliance for one strategic reason alone – to change the electoral system because the FPP system was undemocratic and vast numbers of people felt they had no representation in Parliament.

Once that was sorted, the Greens left, because they didn’t support the authoritarian and undemocratic way Jim Anderton ran the Alliance (which eventually led to the demise of the Alliance). The Green presence in the Alliance was no more than strategic, as they (I chose not to be involved with the Greens as part of the Alliance through that era) saw it as the best path to improving democratic process.

I cannot recall the exact lineup of personalities, but Jeanette, Rod, Sue Kedgley and Keith definitely left the Alliance when the Greens’ voted to depart. Russel stayed a little while, but soon left.

Nandor, Sue Bradford and Metiria had never been part of the Alliance. Nor, to my knowledge, were any of the remaining top 12 on the current Green list.

So, where is the hijack, BB?

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Valis

So I guess you are another Greenie who feels a tad embarrassed by this cynical manipulation of our electoral system.

How do you feel about your party being hijacked by the Alliance and the communists?

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You just keep trying to convince us that black is white, bb. Have some more koolaid.

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