Comments on: Carbon fin prints http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/ hopping along the corridors of power Mon, 15 Mar 2010 03:43:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44893 StephenR Mon, 02 Jun 2008 01:53:18 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44893 Go the cheering up, but you might be competing with Blue Peter there.. Go the cheering up, but you might be competing with Blue Peter there..

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]]> By: treesoftomorrow http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44836 treesoftomorrow Sun, 01 Jun 2008 01:33:46 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44836 getting angry at clean rivers eh? must be a hard job getting angry at clean rivers eh? must be a hard job

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]]> By: The Optimist http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44781 The Optimist Fri, 30 May 2008 20:05:24 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44781 I am an optimist compared to the environmentalists. We can solve our problems, they are not our master. But fair point, will try to cheer up. I am an optimist compared to the environmentalists. We can solve our problems, they are not our master. But fair point, will try to cheer up.

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]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44762 StephenR Fri, 30 May 2008 09:35:04 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44762 I looked at your blog for some optimism...not a lot. I looked at your blog for some optimism…not a lot.

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]]> By: The Optimist http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44749 The Optimist Fri, 30 May 2008 08:05:34 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44749 At least you know that non-environmentalists read your blog. That should make you happy. Maybe you will get a convert. I doubt coal will have any value whatsoever in 50 years. The technology will probably have rendered it useless. Therefore we should make hay while the sun shines and MINE THAT COAL. I reckon there is about $1000bn worth of coal in the ground. It is an absolute crime to leave it to waste - our children will never get to sell it. This is a once in a lifetime oppty to sell as much coal as possible to China before it is too late! Cheap solar is one option, let's wait and see. Being an optimist I think that the next decade is going to be very interesting for power. Regulations have a chilling effect on the economy and cost jobs. I realise that environmentalists care little for such trifles, and fair enough too (hence the term 'environmentalist') But in the real world they must be considered. The world is for us humans. If we want to keep a few animals around to keep us amused then that's fine. But perhaps (at least while there are still people starving in the world) it would be better if the environmentalists fronted up with the cash to do so. Going back to the topic (what topic?) I think the poster probably needs some sort of communist system (see I do know my terminology, but I still don't know what Neo maxist is), where nobody moves unless the big man says so. Then you could have as many bureaucrats on the fishing boats as fishermen, and there would be no hanky panky. If the big man wanted the fish to swim to China then the fish would swim to China, or be poisoned faster than you can say 'Tiananmen'. Of course you would need to subsidise fish, so that people can afford it. And fishing boats. Who knows where that would lead. But there would certainly be no unprocessed fish going to China without permission. At least you know that non-environmentalists read your blog. That should make you happy. Maybe you will get a convert.

I doubt coal will have any value whatsoever in 50 years. The technology will probably have rendered it useless. Therefore we should make hay while the sun shines and MINE THAT COAL. I reckon there is about $1000bn worth of coal in the ground. It is an absolute crime to leave it to waste – our children will never get to sell it. This is a once in a lifetime oppty to sell as much coal as possible to China before it is too late!

Cheap solar is one option, let’s wait and see. Being an optimist I think that the next decade is going to be very interesting for power.

Regulations have a chilling effect on the economy and cost jobs. I realise that environmentalists care little for such trifles, and fair enough too (hence the term ‘environmentalist’) But in the real world they must be considered.

The world is for us humans. If we want to keep a few animals around to keep us amused then that’s fine. But perhaps (at least while there are still people starving in the world) it would be better if the environmentalists fronted up with the cash to do so.

Going back to the topic (what topic?) I think the poster probably needs some sort of communist system (see I do know my terminology, but I still don’t know what Neo maxist is), where nobody moves unless the big man says so. Then you could have as many bureaucrats on the fishing boats as fishermen, and there would be no hanky panky. If the big man wanted the fish to swim to China then the fish would swim to China, or be poisoned faster than you can say ‘Tiananmen’.

Of course you would need to subsidise fish, so that people can afford it. And fishing boats. Who knows where that would lead. But there would certainly be no unprocessed fish going to China without permission.

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]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44748 StephenR Fri, 30 May 2008 07:39:12 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44748 Well cheap solar power is certainly on the way, and not in the very long term wave power/nuclear fusion way. Well cheap solar power is certainly on the way, and not in the very long term wave power/nuclear fusion way.

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]]> By: peterquixote http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44742 peterquixote Fri, 30 May 2008 05:31:38 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44742 all you have to do fwwog is be brilliant, that is there is a NZ GOVT NAT coming negotiate now, i keep telling yous fwogs don't wait till it to late fwog them NZ NAT GOVT want you in. fwwog move now .. all you have to do fwwog is be brilliant,
that is there is a NZ GOVT NAT coming
negotiate now,
i keep telling yous fwogs
don’t wait till it to late fwog
them NZ NAT GOVT want you in.
fwwog move now ..

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]]> By: fin http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44736 fin Fri, 30 May 2008 04:30:24 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44736 In reply to The Optimist: - we have 2000 years of coal in the ground just aching to be released Imagine the capital gain NZ can make on this if we leave it for a while... - nuclear starts with N And finishes with radioactive waste, with a capital R - hydro involves too much moving earth about I agree, the least earth moving the better, but hydro power does work well - wind is useless in the calm And is very good when not calm - solar is far too expensive still except for hot water So solar is they way for water heating - etc., etc. I wish you could have thought of more too In reply to The Optimist:
- we have 2000 years of coal in the ground just aching to be released
Imagine the capital gain NZ can make on this if we leave it for a while…
- nuclear starts with N
And finishes with radioactive waste, with a capital R
- hydro involves too much moving earth about
I agree, the least earth moving the better, but hydro power does work well
- wind is useless in the calm
And is very good when not calm
- solar is far too expensive still except for hot water
So solar is they way for water heating
- etc., etc.
I wish you could have thought of more too

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]]> By: andrew http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44721 andrew Fri, 30 May 2008 02:47:41 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44721 that's probably it that’s probably it

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]]> By: Sam Buchanan http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44710 Sam Buchanan Fri, 30 May 2008 02:09:51 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44710 What's a "knowledge wave economy"? Is this a Marxist term? Does it mean training people who then go overseas and wave as they leave? Or waving goodbye to knowledge as anything we come up with quickly gets bought by an overseas company? What’s a “knowledge wave economy”? Is this a Marxist term?

Does it mean training people who then go overseas and wave as they leave? Or waving goodbye to knowledge as anything we come up with quickly gets bought by an overseas company?

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]]> By: andrew http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44701 andrew Fri, 30 May 2008 01:34:47 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44701 it's to do with wages not tariffs. cheaper to get the processing done in china. now with this knowledge wave economy, perhaps we could come up with automated factories instead?! ;) <blockquote> as economic growth remains a sacred cow, we all politely moved on to the next question. Afterall we wouldn’t want to stop growing beyond the limits of our planet’s ability to cope.</blockquote> even if we still have per capita growth, wouldn't it be prudent to stop perpetually increasing the number of capitas for a start it’s to do with wages not tariffs. cheaper to get the processing done in china.
now with this knowledge wave economy, perhaps we could come up with automated factories instead?! ;)

as economic growth remains a sacred cow, we all politely moved on to the next question. Afterall we wouldn’t want to stop growing beyond the limits of our planet’s ability to cope.

even if we still have per capita growth, wouldn’t it be prudent to stop perpetually increasing the number of capitas for a start

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]]> By: Ahuahu http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44697 Ahuahu Fri, 30 May 2008 01:08:52 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44697 The real question here is what is the scale of this back and forth trade. As I see it, New Zealand exports a huge amount of seafood, and the market quirks (which may be related to the hangover of tarrifs which are soon to be removed) which cause this fish to be shipped back here only cause a tiny proportion of such back and forth movement to occur. The efficiencies of the unrestricted process we now have, I would be happy to wager, would save far more of every type of resource (including money, time, electricity, fuel etc) than would be wasted by this anomaly. Basically Sue's criticism is meaningless unless she puts it in perspective. The real question here is what is the scale of this back and forth trade. As I see it, New Zealand exports a huge amount of seafood, and the market quirks (which may be related to the hangover of tarrifs which are soon to be removed) which cause this fish to be shipped back here only cause a tiny proportion of such back and forth movement to occur. The efficiencies of the unrestricted process we now have, I would be happy to wager, would save far more of every type of resource (including money, time, electricity, fuel etc) than would be wasted by this anomaly. Basically Sue’s criticism is meaningless unless she puts it in perspective.

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]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44695 StephenR Fri, 30 May 2008 00:08:37 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44695 "impact of new regulations and armies of new state sector do-nothings?" Like regulations to prevent catching and killing albatrosses? Bottom trawling? Limits on catches through quotas? “impact of new regulations and armies of new state sector do-nothings?”

Like regulations to prevent catching and killing albatrosses? Bottom trawling? Limits on catches through quotas?

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]]> By: XYY http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44694 XYY Fri, 30 May 2008 00:03:10 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44694 It seems like "The Optimist" is pessimistic about anything he doesn't like the sound of, such as that new-fangled renewable power or his ability to look stuff up on Google. It seems like “The Optimist” is pessimistic about anything he doesn’t like the sound of, such as that new-fangled renewable power or his ability to look stuff up on Google.

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]]> By: Ari http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44693 Ari Thu, 29 May 2008 23:52:45 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44693 Neo-liberalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism Pretty straightforward: bust down all the trade barriers and subsidies you can, get out of all but the key state services such as law enforcement, education, health, and infrastructure. Don't lesislate any interference with trade, minimal labour laws, etc... Essentially, it's free trade with no provision for social concerns or equality of opportunity. And no, this is not "marxist terminology". Now, if we start talking about things like siezing the means of production and bourgeoise oppression, then we're using marxist terminology. This is just basic political science. If you're going to go libertarian, please actually learn about some of the related political terminology to save us some time explaining. :) There are enough ignorant libertarians on the net already. Neo-liberalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
Pretty straightforward: bust down all the trade barriers and subsidies you can, get out of all but the key state services such as law enforcement, education, health, and infrastructure. Don’t lesislate any interference with trade, minimal labour laws, etc…

Essentially, it’s free trade with no provision for social concerns or equality of opportunity.

And no, this is not “marxist terminology”. Now, if we start talking about things like siezing the means of production and bourgeoise oppression, then we’re using marxist terminology. This is just basic political science.

If you’re going to go libertarian, please actually learn about some of the related political terminology to save us some time explaining. :) There are enough ignorant libertarians on the net already.

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]]> By: Sam Buchanan http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44689 Sam Buchanan Thu, 29 May 2008 23:07:14 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44689 Doesn't sound too difficult to require fish caught in NZ waters to be processed in NZ. Might mean a few people keep their jobs. I think you'll find getting coal out of the ground involves moving an awful lot of earth around. The reason coal fired power stations have been a big growth area is because they are cheap - provided you don't worry about climate change, habitat destruction, messed up rivers and all the rest of the environmental impacts. The alternatives start with doing a better job with what we already have, throwing in some renewables here and there, a bit of small scale hydro - simple 'think small' politics really. Not very eciting, but it does have the slight advantage of working. Doesn’t sound too difficult to require fish caught in NZ waters to be processed in NZ. Might mean a few people keep their jobs.

I think you’ll find getting coal out of the ground involves moving an awful lot of earth around. The reason coal fired power stations have been a big growth area is because they are cheap – provided you don’t worry about climate change, habitat destruction, messed up rivers and all the rest of the environmental impacts. The alternatives start with doing a better job with what we already have, throwing in some renewables here and there, a bit of small scale hydro – simple ‘think small’ politics really. Not very eciting, but it does have the slight advantage of working.

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]]> By: The Optimist http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44684 The Optimist Thu, 29 May 2008 21:36:38 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/29/carbon-fin-prints/#comment-44684 You seem to suggest that we should ban fish exports if the processed product might be imported back into NZ? How many bureaucrats are going to be need to enforce this? What will be the cost to the NZ fishing industry already reeling from the impact of new regulations and armies of new state sector do-nothings? Regarding electricity generation, given that: - we have 2000 years of coal in the ground just aching to be released - nuclear starts with N - hydro involves too much moving earth about - wind is useless in the calm - solar is far too expensive still except for hot water - etc., etc. it seems sensible that coal fire power stations are the only way to go. That explains why it has been a big growth area. I would love to see environmentalists state what the true alternatives are that don't involve electricity price hikes and blackouts. * What is neo-liberal free trade? Is this some sort of marxist terminology. I have never read any communist literature in case megalamania take hold and I also start killing 100m people - but if there is a glossary somewhere please point me to it. You seem to suggest that we should ban fish exports if the processed product might be imported back into NZ? How many bureaucrats are going to be need to enforce this? What will be the cost to the NZ fishing industry already reeling from the impact of new regulations and armies of new state sector do-nothings?

Regarding electricity generation, given that:

- we have 2000 years of coal in the ground just aching to be released
- nuclear starts with N
- hydro involves too much moving earth about
- wind is useless in the calm
- solar is far too expensive still except for hot water
- etc., etc.

it seems sensible that coal fire power stations are the only way to go. That explains why it has been a big growth area. I would love to see environmentalists state what the true alternatives are that don’t involve electricity price hikes and blackouts.

* What is neo-liberal free trade? Is this some sort of marxist terminology. I have never read any communist literature in case megalamania take hold and I also start killing 100m people – but if there is a glossary somewhere please point me to it.

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