Toad says “Geoff Fischer, I agree that there were some appalling things done and said by some of our Vietnam vets, as you have quoted. But I do not agree that means they do not seserve an apoogy”.

Let me be clear: I believe that the Vietnam war veterans are deserving of an apology from the crown – for their exposure to Agent Orange, and for having been led into participation in an unjust war which left them brutalized and broken. But the context is critical. Parliament gave an apology to the veterans alone, in the context of a general campaign to obscure the reality of the Vietnam war (i.e. “Tribute 08″ and a flood of press articles which falsely portray the war as justified and necessary). In this context the apology was unworthy of the people of New Zealand and arguably offensive to the people of Vietnam.

The Green Parliamentarians had the opportunity to insist on a proper context which would have been an inclusive crown apology to the government’s war veterans, to the people of Vietnam, and the people of New Zealand for the decision to go to war in the first place. And at the same time one could reasonably expect some expression of regret from at least some of the war veterans for their own personal misconduct in the war. You can say that “military cultureâ€? caused New Zealand soldiers to commit racist atrocities in Vietnam, but soldiers still need to be accountable for their actions. Presumably you would expect no less in civil society, so why not expect personal moral responsibility from soldiers?

The Greens had it in their power to insist on a proper apology for the entire conduct of the Vietnam war based on the principle of truth and reconciliation. Instead they opted to go along with a NZ government and media campaign which aims to misrepresent the true causes of the Vietnam war, to obscure the misconduct of US and New Zealand forces, and by implication, to justify New Zealand involvement in other genocidal imperial wars. That opportunity having been irretrievably lost, all one can do is condemn the way in which the Green Parliamentarians have mishandled the matter.

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By the way my blog also has a comment section, so if you want to continue this threat there, that’s also fine.

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Hi Gerrit,

Apology accepted. Especially since you write my moniker incorrect again.Lol.

I would like to invite you to become a member of our 911 forum were I will be happy to respond to your questions about how it could have been done.
There are some good indications, but I feel bad about hijacking this thread. It was after all about the respect due to the Vietnam veterans and not 911.
This invitation extends to every one interested in this subject. We have a special debunking forum to discuss these issues.

I especially would also like to invite eredwen and Scott to join the forum as they seem already somewhat up and running with the 911 subject.

http://911truthaotearoa.myfreeforum.org/

Also, if any of you live in Auckland, I and some other 911 truth seekers will be handing out information and we will be open to, hopefully intelligent, debate on the 11th of June in Aotearoa square from 11 o’clock until 2 o’clock in the afternoon. We hope that this will be a monthly event until we get justice for the victims and their families.

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travellrev,

apologies for getting your moniker incorrect.

Was not done on purpose.

Atom bomb project was kept secret because the people knew it was for the war effort. Saving GI lives. The atom bomb was not intended for internal use within the USA and on US citizens.

911 is a totally different kettle of fish. Here we are expected to presume that thousands of Americans are keeping mum (through the payment of money – bribes) that killed 4 odd thousand Americans.

Not entirely plausable.

Please address the question regarding the placement of exlosive charges in buildings without the occupiers and owners being aware. Or are you saying that a team of operators slipped into the building and overnight placed demolition charges to implode the building in such a perfect manner that the office workers did not see any trace of nocternal activity?

Again not entirely plausable.

Reminds of the people that said that the moon landings were fabricated in hollywood.

Sure it is plausable, but you have the scale of the operation (building sets, film crews, actors, film editors, etc) with maybe a couple of hundred people involved. And not one has spoken out and said the moon landings were faked.

While all these conspiracy theories make good reading, they fail the common sense test. Common sense tells you that the shear volume of people who would have needed to be involved is so large that their silence is deafening.

That Bush and his cohorts took advantage of the aftermath is without doubt. What is doubtful if the vast 911 conspiracy, you subscribe to, holds water.

Must say that if there was a consiracy they choose the date well. 911 has a certain ring to it.

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Gerrit,

Your comment is one of those typical standard reactions to people like us of what I would loosely call the 911 truth seekers. It also shows the sort of rabid prejudice about who we actually are so let me try to set you straight on a few issues, although judging by your general demeanour on this site I won’t hold my breath.

Let’s start with the mutilation of my moniker Travellerev to travellred. From this I have to assume that to you believe that just because we ask critical questions we must be left wing loonies but a surprising number of 911 truth seekers are actually livelong republicans, ex US military and religious people all of whom are not known for a leftwing attitude.

Second; The biggest problems unaddressed by the 911 conspiracy theorists is the scle of the operation the US covert operations teams wod hav ehd to carry out. (Perhaps a spell check wouldn’t go amiss)

Contrary to you assumption that we as a movement have to address all the issues arising from our questioning the official “Conspiracy theory� we don’t have to do so at all.

What we did was provide proof that a crime has been committed and that 19 young Arab men would have been unable to have carried it out.
This was not done by one or two conspiracy loonies but by the collaboration of thousands of people for several years and from around the globe.

Physicists, Chemists, Architects, Engineers, Ex military, Ex police, Pilots, Ex defence ministers, Politicians, Journalists to name a few.

Four independent laboratories have now confirmed that chemicals consistent with the profile of thermate (a military incendiary used for the demolition of buildings) were abundantly present in the dust samples from the Twin towers. Demolition experts have testified to the fact that building 7 was a controlled demolition. Military personnel working in the Pentagon have gone on record as stating that they did not see a plane wreck on the 911 in the Pentagon and they smelled cordite instead of kerosene.

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

Mathematicians and engineers have calculated the amount of energy needed to pulverise the buildings into fine dust and it is simply scientifically impossible for the amount of kerosene and the impact of the two planes to have caused the freefall speed implosion.

No plane hit the third building yet it imploded into its own footprint in free fall speed as well. This building housed local headquarters of the CIA, the bunker of Giuliani and a multitude of other squirrelly secretive organisations, in other words; a secure building with no entrance to maniacal Arab terrorists.

If this had been an official police and CSI investigation, which was never allowed to happen by the way, it would have been reason enough to start looking for who had the means, the motive and the opportunity. I put it to you that it could not have been 19 Arab young men with a mad mullah leader however much they might have liked to.

On the amount of people needed to perpetrate this crime which would be prepared to do this, we have some ideas but that’s all they are, Ideas.
We do know that that project Manhattan was able to stay secret for several years even though roughly 100.000 people were involved in the development of the Atom bomb.

We also know that several Trillion dollars was missing from the Pentagon books. Some of that could have gone to buying some silence perhaps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eootfzAhAoU

We do know that the part of the Pentagon which got hit was a newly fortified office area which housed the book keeping department and only those people who worked in that area died.

By the way; Hani Hanjour who was unable to rent a Cessna because of his bad flying skills performed a mindboggingly difficult manoeuvre to get to this area instead of flying the plane straight into the site which housed Rumsfeld et al.

It took a pilot who was a flight instructor for these planes 10 attempts in a flight simulator to manage it and none of his students could do it. Makes you wonder eh?

This is their site. http://pilotsfor911truth.org/
You should also watch this movie made by them, it makes you hair stand up:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8672066571196607580&q=&hl=en

Kind regards

Travellerev

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travellred,

The biggest problems unaddressed by the 911 conspiracy theorists is the scle of the operation the US covert operations teams wod hav ehd to carry out.

To bring down a building like you are suggesting (in a controlled implosion) requires the placing of numerous charges throughout the building. These charges (if in concrete columns ) require drilling multiple holes. Do you think this would have gone unnoticed by the building users?

You can imagine the scenario, excuse me sir, just going to move your desk from this column as I’m going to drill a few holes. Cant tell you what they are for but every column on every floor is going to get drilled.

Dont you think it would raise just a tiny speck of suspision and a few discussions around the water cooler?

Then off cource you would need to set the charges and string firing cabling throughout the building. All while its occupenats are blissfully unaware. remember it was a Tuesday morning so the workers were all at the desks.

There is a Tui billbord in there somewhere me thinks.

Even a steel framed building requires the same scenario. Instead of drilling holes in concrete you need to set shaped charges that will cut the steel. An even harder and more time consuming effort then required for concrete columns.

Another issue not addressed is the huge number of people required to drill the holes and set the charges. You would need to be absolutely certain that not a single one would ever not have a conscience and speak out.

Somehow I dont think that is plausable.

So while it might be strange that a building collapsed into its own footprint, (something not possible by a large central explosion) the chances of it having been done by covert operations would be almost impossible.

For the simple reason that too many people are involved, too many at the workface for the installation of the charges, plus a person without a conscience to set the charges off.

So while covert operations involvement is plausable, it is highly unlikely.

Because if convert operations were involved, it would not have been just for this building. They needed to hijack the planes and fly them into the twin towers, to have an excuse to let off the charges in the building you talk about.

Again more peole involved (count would be about a thousands by now) and more risk of someone spilling the beans.

Pressure on those people, after the horrific death toll, would be huge.

Such secrecy is just not pausible.

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BB

Yes they did. In fact they blew up a lot of people from around the world including two Kiwis. Just to get the world crazy enough to go to two illegal wars of aggression with them. So they could get their filthy claws on the biggest oil reserves in the world. Over a million Iraqis died already and more than 4000 American soldiers. Google “winter soldiers” and find out what American soldiers think about what they are doing there.

The Islamofascists is a therm invented by the American corporate controlled media. Al Qaeda is a CIA controlled group. Don’t believe me but use your broadband for something other than gaming and porn and find out for yourself. Dammit

The idea is to stop attacking other people just because you don’t like them or because your mates tell you to. The Israel US alliance is a bad one and based on unsound reasoning. In fact many practising Jews think Israel was a bad idea. Google: Jews against Zionism and find out.
For those of you lurking here (I have found out that Kiwis are a great nation of internet lurkers) following this thread we have a forum just started up discussing the events of 911. You can find it here: http://911truthaotearoa.myfreeforum.org/

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BB: Consider a whole range of options. Don’t jump when the US wants us to for anything. Be ourselves. Be very sure of our actions before we act. Serving Us interests is not serving our own interests or the interests of others generally.
We stood up to them over Nuclear ships. Why so cowardly now? They would only support us if we suffered agression if it was in their interests. The US didn’t really care about ANZUS. Close Waihopai and you would soon see action.
I wouldn’t attack Israel. I would publicly admonish the US for supporting the Israelis and turing a blind eye to Palestine instead of the interminable silence. Yes the Holocaust was real. Why is another slower Holocaust being allowed to be acted on Palestine. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

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Actually Scott…what would YOu do if you were PM?

Would you cut all ties with the USA?, attack Israel?

I would really like to know.

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ha ha..thank god you guys will never be the govt

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Never thought I would say this big bro. you have finally got it. The vested interests in the US are capable of anything. Glad to see we are finally getting through to you.

It takes quite a bit of guts to admit that the main terrorists in this world wear the uniforms of the US.

Well done again BB

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trav

So the Yanks blew up their own people, destroyed their own buildings all so they could start a war with the Islamofacists?

Yeah Right!

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Big bro,

Did you actually watch the video link I gave you?
I think that mates should not lie their mates into unnecessary wars.
Why is it easier for you to believe something that is scientifically impossible just because it fits with your ideas about “mad” Arabs, then to use your brain and start doing the research. Go on proof me wrong.
I’m not the one who is mad mate it’s the mad men in Washington who are.
And you are a sucker for believing them.
And no I have no problem with Americans, but I do with their fascist leadership.

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Big Bro,
Um I don’t know how to tell you this but there are a few problems with regards to Osama bin Laden and the official “Conspiracy theory”.
For starters he is not on the FBI most wanted list for 911 because they have absolutely no proof of his involvement. Also a third building collapsed that day in the late afternoon, in 6.5 seconds (that is free fall speed). A 47 floor skyscraper in the same complex not damaged by an airplane with minor damage and small fires.
If you did not know this you can watch the collapse here:
http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=WTC+7+collapse+italian&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
For more information as to why the only three steel framed building to ever collapse due to fire, all in free fall speed and all in the same city all on the same day visit: http://www.ae911truth.org/
How this relates to this threat? It is now become clear that Pearl Harbour was provoked, the golf of Tonkin incident never happened, The Pantagon tried to organise a false flag incident (Northwoods) to get the USA to attack Cuba and it appears that the liquification (for want of a better word) of the three buildings into pyroclastic flows into the streets of New York would have been utterly impossible without the use of thermate. This means that for the umpht time the USA leadership lied to the world and to it’s friends to get us to follow them into another misbegotten adventure. We should not be in Afghanistan, and we should not have about 300 ex-military in Iraq.

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Ahh…I give up, if you chaps do not want to hear other points of view then I guess that is your right.

Have fun and I hope that all your MP’s manage to find work after the election, as I have said before it is a pity that you did not manage to do something about animal cruelty while you were there.

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please post my comments

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“Do the work for us BB??? Have Afghanistan or Iraq ever done to threaten the freedom or livelihood of Kiwis?”

Ahh..so we are not part of the western world Toad?, have you not heard of Osama bin laden?..or is he OK in your eyes given that he hates the Yanks?
It is simple, the Yanks are our mates, and mates help each other out, and by the way, I do get it Toad, you chaps on the hard left have a simple hatred of democracy and a natural hared of anything American.

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Do the work for us BB??? Have Afghanistan or Iraq ever done to threaten the freedom or livelihood of Kiwis?

War should be an absolute last resort when all other options for conflict resolution fail – not the pre-emptive option of the Shrub, which was really just a grab for the last oil he could see himself getting his hands on to avoid having to tell Americans their lifestyle may have to change because demand was starting to exceed supply.

In case you don’t get it, BB, people who think like Bush (rather than the late and somewhat silly Saddam, tyrant as he was) are actually the real enemy of freedom, democracy, and prosperity.

Obama and McCain both seem more sensible, but time will tell whether whomever of them is elected will end up just as synchophantic to the oil and arms industries as Bush has been.

Bush cannot see a future without unlimited oil, but that is something we all must see, and adapt to.

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We should be in Afghanistan and we should also be in Iraq, it is highly embarrassing that we are prepared to sit back and let others do the work for us.

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travellerev :

I do agree with you !

However: as far as Aotearoa NZ’s involvement is concerned, these current conflicts have elicited a different response than previously, and I believe this needs acknowledgment:

1. Only a small specialist group of career military personnel, supposedly not under the command of others, went to Afghanistan (ONE STEP FORWARD!) I understood that they were working in cooperation with the Brits rather than the Americans.

and

2. The current Government forgot about our “perpetual, unquestioning loyalty to the Americans for the Battle of the Coral Sea” (A SECOND STEP FORWARD!) and did not send troops to Iraq despite various threats from the Bush administration about not being such “close friends” anymore … )

The use of DU is an obscenity and a War Crime beyond comprehension that the USA should be held responsible for now.
I’d love AotearoaNZ to be a part of such a move, (but so far I’m not holding my breath).

Having said that, from the rhetoric at the time it seems that a National-led Government would have done differently and joined the USA et al “no matter what”.

It remains to be seen what could happen after the Election, so I guess it is up to the voters, our MMP system, and about our general population feeling strongly enough to make this an issue larger than “personal tax cuts” etc that the media keeps on polling people about!

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