Comments on: Are the Wheels Falling Off the ETS? http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/ hopping along the corridors of power Sun, 21 Mar 2010 20:21:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: panda http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43389 panda Thu, 15 May 2008 23:08:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43389 "Why does the New Zealand public have to inccur the pollution costs for the NZ dairy industry? depends on what type of pollution u are talking about sh#T or the so called Carbon emissions if u mean effluent, for sure the polluter should pay, but if u mean the carbon nonsense no other country in the world is including agriculture in their ETS so why the hell should we!!! it makes no sense if fact every other country knows its number one mission is to feed its people (except Burma and Zim)and so dont attempt to punish their farmers for doing so" no answer to my questions ? “Why does the New Zealand public have to inccur the pollution costs for the NZ dairy industry?

depends on what type of pollution u are talking about

sh#T or the so called Carbon emissions

if u mean effluent, for sure the polluter should pay, but if u mean the carbon nonsense no other country in the world is including agriculture in their ETS so why the hell should we!!!

it makes no sense

if fact every other country knows its number one mission is to feed its people (except Burma and Zim)and so dont attempt to punish their farmers for doing so”

no answer to my questions ?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: Bryce http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43388 Bryce Thu, 15 May 2008 23:01:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43388 Hi Ari (and Jeanette)

If you look back at Green Party statements at the time of the ETS announcement you’ll find enthusiasm for the scheme. Yes, the Greens had some complaints – mostly about how this market mechanism didn’t go *far enough*. But the Greens have always been generally supportive of market models like ETS. The statement from the Greens that I saw included some reservations, but also said things like

* The ETS “is well designed”

* “The Greens welcome the underlying design of the scheme, which takes a number of features from our climate change policy we released in March.�

So it seems that the Greens are now backing away from this support and rewriting history.

For a very different view and critique of the scheme, see:
http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2007/10/the-green-labou.html

Bryce

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43336 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 03:23:14 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43336 People can choose to change their behaviour based on cost BB, and they generally do. One could give oneself an even bigger tax cut by buying goods/services that have taken measures efficiency or emissions reduction measures, which will presumably be competitive with low efficiency/high emitters, because their pollution now has a cost. People can choose to change their behaviour based on cost BB, and they generally do. One could give oneself an even bigger tax cut by buying goods/services that have taken measures efficiency or emissions reduction measures, which will presumably be competitive with low efficiency/high emitters, because their pollution now has a cost.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43328 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 02:47:57 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43328 'choice', exactly. ‘choice’, exactly.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: dbuckley http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43325 dbuckley Thu, 15 May 2008 02:43:57 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43325 The downside of ETS is that it is, like GST, (by and large) neutral on business, instead just passing an extra set of costs onto the consumer. Now if the consumer could get those costs back in an equitable and useful manner, making it cost neutral for the consumer, then the scheme is not doomed to failure, as ever providing that the consumer has some ability to exercise a meaningful and reasonable choice of behaviours. The downside of ETS is that it is, like GST, (by and large) neutral on business, instead just passing an extra set of costs onto the consumer. Now if the consumer could get those costs back in an equitable and useful manner, making it cost neutral for the consumer, then the scheme is not doomed to failure, as ever providing that the consumer has some ability to exercise a meaningful and reasonable choice of behaviours.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43321 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 02:28:12 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43321 http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00252.htm or just search the title. BB, what 'heap of extra taxes'? What if the money from the ETS was recycled into energy efficiency and energy projects? Or even income tax reductions? What if income tax were lowered (as the greens seem to advocate, at least at the moment) at the same time? I'm just saying those are options, not sure Labour is too keen on any of them, hard to tell. http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00252.htm or just search the title.

BB, what ‘heap of extra taxes’? What if the money from the ETS was recycled into energy efficiency and energy projects? Or even income tax reductions? What if income tax were lowered (as the greens seem to advocate, at least at the moment) at the same time? I’m just saying those are options, not sure Labour is too keen on any of them, hard to tell.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: uk_kiwi http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43315 uk_kiwi Thu, 15 May 2008 02:15:08 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43315 Stephen- that link is a 404 Stephen- that link is a 404

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43312 big bro Thu, 15 May 2008 02:00:49 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43312 Stephen So a whole heap of extra taxes is not going to harm the economy? While you are there, can you tell me how money is going to stop climate change? Stephen

So a whole heap of extra taxes is not going to harm the economy?

While you are there, can you tell me how money is going to stop climate change?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43311 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 01:58:27 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43311 "Greens secure warmer, drier State homes" http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00252.htm. Good stuff! “Greens secure warmer, drier State homes” http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00252.htm. Good stuff!

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: StephenR http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43310 StephenR Thu, 15 May 2008 01:57:12 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43310 BB, I still have no idea where you get your figures on "economic suicide" . BB, I still have no idea where you get your figures on “economic suicide” .

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43276 big bro Wed, 14 May 2008 21:55:15 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43276 Trees "what are you doing then to convince the big players (our trade partners) to reduce their emissions then?" I don't know, what do you suggest?, but until they do we should not commit economic suicide just so a few people in NZ can fell good about themselves. Trees

“what are you doing then to convince the big players (our trade partners) to reduce their emissions then?”

I don’t know, what do you suggest?, but until they do we should not commit economic suicide just so a few people in NZ can fell good about themselves.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: uk_kiwi http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43275 uk_kiwi Wed, 14 May 2008 21:54:47 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43275 If the Greens are so worried about carbon emission, why are they so enthusiastic and proud about stopping hydro power? What do they want to happen, pensioners and the unemployed freezing to death in the dark so we can become carbon-neutral? Great! Seems to me if the Greens are serious, they need to release a plan for the doubling of power generation in NZ over the next 30 years (2% growth per year) that doesn't involve thermal power. Otherwise they are just dooming everyone to huge power increases and who's going to vote for that? If the Greens are so worried about carbon emission, why are they so enthusiastic and proud about stopping hydro power? What do they want to happen, pensioners and the unemployed freezing to death in the dark so we can become carbon-neutral? Great!

Seems to me if the Greens are serious, they need to release a plan for the doubling of power generation in NZ over the next 30 years (2% growth per year) that doesn’t involve thermal power.

Otherwise they are just dooming everyone to huge power increases and who’s going to vote for that?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: panda http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43269 panda Wed, 14 May 2008 21:13:40 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43269 Why does the New Zealand public have to inccur the pollution costs for the NZ dairy industry? depends on what type of pollution u are talking about sh#T or the so called Carbon emissions if u mean effluent, for sure the polluter should pay, but if u mean the carbon nonsence no other country in the world is including agriculture in their ETS so why the hell sould we!!! it makes no sense if fact evey other country knows its number one mission is to feed its people (except Burma and Zim)and so dont attempt to punish their farmers for doing so Why does the New Zealand public have to inccur the pollution costs for the NZ dairy industry?

depends on what type of pollution u are talking about

sh#T or the so called Carbon emissions

if u mean effluent, for sure the polluter should pay, but if u mean the carbon nonsence no other country in the world is including agriculture in their ETS so why the hell sould we!!!

it makes no sense

if fact evey other country knows its number one mission is to feed its people (except Burma and Zim)and so dont attempt to punish their farmers for doing so

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: phil u http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43265 phil u Wed, 14 May 2008 20:59:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43265 good that you are writing/talking to us in this forum..jeanette.. there should have been/should be more of it.. ..and not just from you.. a perennial greens complaint is that the media ignores/distorts the/your 'green message'.. it has long puzzled me why you (all) haven't made use of this forum.. your post is the second frogblog post i have linked to/publicised this morning.. (and hey..!..i do have my readers/audience..!..eh..?) i am sure other media..not to mention party members/supporters(heh!)..would welcome clarification/explaining of the 'green message'.. (not to mention the general public..!..) the time couldn't be 'better' to clarify/elucidate your/the green message.. they are no longer 'ignoring you'..eh..? phil(whoar.co.nz) good that you are writing/talking to us in this forum..jeanette..

there should have been/should be more of it..

..and not just from you..

a perennial greens complaint is that the media ignores/distorts the/your ‘green message’..

it has long puzzled me why you (all) haven’t made use of this forum..

your post is the second frogblog post i have linked to/publicised this morning..

(and hey..!..i do have my readers/audience..!..eh..?)

i am sure other media..not to mention party members/supporters(heh!)..would welcome clarification/explaining of the ‘green message’..

(not to mention the general public..!..)

the time couldn’t be ‘better’ to clarify/elucidate your/the green message..

they are no longer ‘ignoring you’..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: panda http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43264 panda Wed, 14 May 2008 20:56:30 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43264 "allowed to use the Public Works Act to force grain farmers to give up their land to CPW" I am sorry I have no idea what you are on about here!! as for the other typical nonsence, huge strides have been made in cleaning up waterways ,why is it we never get any credit for any move we make in this direction ? BTW what is your defination of a public stream or a waterway? as for your tripe about milk tankers we pay millions in govt imposed Road user taxes, more than they need in fact as they steal most of it to top up our huge social welfare bill “allowed to use the Public Works Act to force grain farmers to give up their land to CPW”

I am sorry I have no idea what you are on about here!!

as for the other typical nonsence, huge strides have been made in cleaning up waterways ,why is it we never get any credit for any move we make in this direction ?
BTW what is your defination of a public stream or a waterway?

as for your tripe about milk tankers we pay millions in govt imposed Road user taxes, more than they need in fact as they steal most of it to top up our huge social welfare bill

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: treesoftomorrow http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43263 treesoftomorrow Wed, 14 May 2008 20:54:29 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43263 what are you doing then to convince the big players (our trade partners) to reduce their emissions then? what are you doing then to convince the big players (our trade partners) to reduce their emissions then?

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43243 big bro Wed, 14 May 2008 19:15:58 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43243 Trees NZ does not have an "act" to clean up apart from (and here I will differ from my friend Panda) the shocking amount of effluent that makes its way into our rivers and streams. You know as well as I do that we are not even a minor player when it comes to climate change, we produce 0.02%. Given that I need to ask you again, why on earth would we want to cripple ourselves simply to make a few people feel good?....unless of course there is a hidden agenda. Trees

NZ does not have an “act” to clean up apart from (and here I will differ from my friend Panda) the shocking amount of effluent that makes its way into our rivers and streams.

You know as well as I do that we are not even a minor player when it comes to climate change, we produce 0.02%.

Given that I need to ask you again, why on earth would we want to cripple ourselves simply to make a few people feel good?….unless of course there is a hidden agenda.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: turnip28 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43241 turnip28 Wed, 14 May 2008 15:59:29 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43241 Why does the New Zealand public have to inccur the pollution costs for the NZ dairy industry? Why shouldn't the person creating the pollution pay for it, why is that so hard to understand. Oh thats right because we don't believe in a free market but rather a market where the profits are privatized and the costs are socialized. The left wants to socialize profits and privatize costs. The right wants to privatize profits and socialize costs. I would like to privatize profits and privatize costs. Why does the New Zealand public have to inccur the pollution costs for the NZ dairy industry? Why shouldn’t the person creating the pollution pay for it, why is that so hard to understand.

Oh thats right because we don’t believe in a free market but rather a market where the profits are privatized and the costs are socialized.

The left wants to socialize profits and privatize costs.
The right wants to privatize profits and socialize costs.
I would like to privatize profits and privatize costs.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43240 Kevyn Wed, 14 May 2008 14:44:57 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43240 panda, by being allowed to use public streams and rivers as private toilets. By being allowed to use the Public Works Act to force grain farmers to give up their land to CPW. By not having to pay the full cost of the damage milk tankers are doing to rural roads designed only for seasonal use by stock trucks and harvesters. That might be the extent of it. panda, by being allowed to use public streams and rivers as private toilets. By being allowed to use the Public Works Act to force grain farmers to give up their land to CPW. By not having to pay the full cost of the damage milk tankers are doing to rural roads designed only for seasonal use by stock trucks and harvesters.

That might be the extent of it.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43233 Trevor29 Wed, 14 May 2008 11:49:50 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/14/are-the-wheels-falling-off-the-ets/#comment-43233 There are ways of taking dollars and converting them into CO2 reductions. One is to adapt Huntley to burn wood or charcoal, thus retaining some thermal generation and keeping the generation renewable. Another is to build geothermal/wind/wave/tidal/solar power plants and retire or mothball the oil/gas/coal plants. However this may require building extra capacity. This is only expensive if we don't have a use for the extra capacity when it is available (wet years, warm windy nights). Any extra capacity can be used to replace fossil fuels (or renewable fuels) for space heating, water heating and industrial heat, and even hydrogen generation (currently from natural gas) - all of which reduces our emmissions as well. Trevor. There are ways of taking dollars and converting them into CO2 reductions.

One is to adapt Huntley to burn wood or charcoal, thus retaining some thermal generation and keeping the generation renewable.

Another is to build geothermal/wind/wave/tidal/solar power plants and retire or mothball the oil/gas/coal plants. However this may require building extra capacity. This is only expensive if we don’t have a use for the extra capacity when it is available (wet years, warm windy nights). Any extra capacity can be used to replace fossil fuels (or renewable fuels) for space heating, water heating and industrial heat, and even hydrogen generation (currently from natural gas) – all of which reduces our emmissions as well.

Trevor.

Like or Dislike: Thumb up 0 Thumb down 0 (0)

]]>