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	<title>Comments on: Scrapping the thermal moratorium is a bad idea</title>
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	<description>hopping along the corridors of power</description>
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		<title>By: BarretU</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-73055</link>
		<dc:creator>BarretU</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 07:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Air pollution in cities across the world is causing some two million premature deaths every year according to the World Health Organization. Some urging nations to adopt stricter air pollution standards. The international health agency&#039;s new air quality guidelines call for nations to reduce the impact of air pollution by substantially cutting levels of particulate matter, ozone and sulfur dioxide. The ozone levels have been rising drastically over the last few decades, especially thanks to our use of fossil fuels.  It may be in our best interest to reduce those levels, even if means getting installment loans to do it.  Recent studies have shown that increased ozone exposure, even at low levels, lead to greater amounts of respiratory illness and death.  There is a higher prevalence of emphysema and other pulmonary disorders in areas with high ozone levels that has risen even after the number of smokers has declined.  The cost of gas has come at too high a price. We all may pay with our lives due to &lt;a href=&quot;http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/2009/03/12/ozone-exposure-death-study/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ozone levels&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Air pollution in cities across the world is causing some two million premature deaths every year according to the World Health Organization. Some urging nations to adopt stricter air pollution standards. The international health agency&#8217;s new air quality guidelines call for nations to reduce the impact of air pollution by substantially cutting levels of particulate matter, ozone and sulfur dioxide. The ozone levels have been rising drastically over the last few decades, especially thanks to our use of fossil fuels.  It may be in our best interest to reduce those levels, even if means getting installment loans to do it.  Recent studies have shown that increased ozone exposure, even at low levels, lead to greater amounts of respiratory illness and death.  There is a higher prevalence of emphysema and other pulmonary disorders in areas with high ozone levels that has risen even after the number of smokers has declined.  The cost of gas has come at too high a price. We all may pay with our lives due to <a href="http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyblog/2009/03/12/ozone-exposure-death-study/" rel="nofollow">ozone levels</a>.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-73055" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('73055', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-73055-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-73055" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('73055', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-73055-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-73055-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: treesoftomorrow</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-43066</link>
		<dc:creator>treesoftomorrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 May 2008 03:06:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-43066</guid>
		<description>genesis Energy has some opposition:

Opposition voiced to Rodney power station
A large number of submissions to a Rodney power station proposal are expected by the time submissions close at 4pm on Friday.

Genesis Energy is seeking a private plan change for a site on State Highway 16 about three kilometres south of Kaukapakapa to allow a 480 megawatt gas-fired station proposal to proceed.

The plan change request is before the Rodney District Council, while 15 resource consent applications are being considered by the Auckland Regional Council.

A number of people attended a submission writing workshop in Kaukapakapa on 
Saturday.

&quot;We had the hall booked for two hours,&quot; says Kaukapakapa Residents and Ratepayers Association committee member Pip McAlwee. &quot;But people were still writing furiously an hour after we were supposed to leave.&quot;

Greenpeace representatives attended to show their support and help with questions.

&quot;We are aware that many Rodney residents are extremely concerned about the environmental impacts of the proposed gas-fired power station,&quot; says Greenpeace climate campaigner Simon Boxer.

&quot;Greenpeace supports the vital campaign work local residents are undertaking to oppose this climate polluting plant,&quot; he says.

&quot;The Rodney power station is a real test of the Governmentâ€™s commitment to tackling climate change.&quot;

Six of the resource consents applied for directly affect the Kaukapakapa River, an inland water protection zone area, says Mrs McAlwee.

Of particular concern to residents is Genesis Energyâ€™s proposal to take 2400 cubic metres of river water, and discharge 1900 cubic metres of power plant wastewater back into the river daily.

Locals opposing the proposal have had messages of support from individuals and environmental groups throughout New Zealand.

&quot;Many were amazed when told that the power station was still going ahead&quot; says Mrs McAlwee.

&quot;The government imposed a 10-year moratorium on new baseload thermal plants in October, and advised state-owned generators in a letter that the government â€˜doesnâ€™t expect new thermal capacity to be either economic or necessary to ensure security of supplyâ€™.&quot;

Genesis Energy has retained the original baseload configuration for the thermal plant. It maintains the power station is essential for security of the power supply north of Auckland.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>genesis Energy has some opposition:</p>
<p>Opposition voiced to Rodney power station<br />
A large number of submissions to a Rodney power station proposal are expected by the time submissions close at 4pm on Friday.</p>
<p>Genesis Energy is seeking a private plan change for a site on State Highway 16 about three kilometres south of Kaukapakapa to allow a 480 megawatt gas-fired station proposal to proceed.</p>
<p>The plan change request is before the Rodney District Council, while 15 resource consent applications are being considered by the Auckland Regional Council.</p>
<p>A number of people attended a submission writing workshop in Kaukapakapa on<br />
Saturday.</p>
<p>&#8220;We had the hall booked for two hours,&#8221; says Kaukapakapa Residents and Ratepayers Association committee member Pip McAlwee. &#8220;But people were still writing furiously an hour after we were supposed to leave.&#8221;</p>
<p>Greenpeace representatives attended to show their support and help with questions.</p>
<p>&#8220;We are aware that many Rodney residents are extremely concerned about the environmental impacts of the proposed gas-fired power station,&#8221; says Greenpeace climate campaigner Simon Boxer.</p>
<p>&#8220;Greenpeace supports the vital campaign work local residents are undertaking to oppose this climate polluting plant,&#8221; he says.</p>
<p>&#8220;The Rodney power station is a real test of the Governmentâ€™s commitment to tackling climate change.&#8221;</p>
<p>Six of the resource consents applied for directly affect the Kaukapakapa River, an inland water protection zone area, says Mrs McAlwee.</p>
<p>Of particular concern to residents is Genesis Energyâ€™s proposal to take 2400 cubic metres of river water, and discharge 1900 cubic metres of power plant wastewater back into the river daily.</p>
<p>Locals opposing the proposal have had messages of support from individuals and environmental groups throughout New Zealand.</p>
<p>&#8220;Many were amazed when told that the power station was still going ahead&#8221; says Mrs McAlwee.</p>
<p>&#8220;The government imposed a 10-year moratorium on new baseload thermal plants in October, and advised state-owned generators in a letter that the government â€˜doesnâ€™t expect new thermal capacity to be either economic or necessary to ensure security of supplyâ€™.&#8221;</p>
<p>Genesis Energy has retained the original baseload configuration for the thermal plant. It maintains the power station is essential for security of the power supply north of Auckland.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-43066" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('43066', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-43066-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-43066" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('43066', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-43066-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-43066-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor29</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-43012</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 11:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-43012</guid>
		<description>Wairaki was one of the world&#039;s first geothermal power stations. If I recall correctly, it is being replaced by an air-cooled station above the wells that will use reinjection wells - and deliver more power.

While reinjection may not be required by law, it is almost essential to get through the RMA. (The exception might be sites where the hot water escapes into the countryside anyway.)

Trevor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wairaki was one of the world&#8217;s first geothermal power stations. If I recall correctly, it is being replaced by an air-cooled station above the wells that will use reinjection wells &#8211; and deliver more power.</p>
<p>While reinjection may not be required by law, it is almost essential to get through the RMA. (The exception might be sites where the hot water escapes into the countryside anyway.)</p>
<p>Trevor.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-43012" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('43012', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-43012-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-43012" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('43012', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-43012-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-43012-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: treesoftomorrow</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-43006</link>
		<dc:creator>treesoftomorrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 10:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-43006</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>â€œEvery dollar invested in carbon capture and storage research is a wasted dollar if it diverts money away from renewable energy and energy efficiency.â€?
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-43006" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('43006', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-43006-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-43006" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('43006', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-43006-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-43006-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: treesoftomorrow</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-43005</link>
		<dc:creator>treesoftomorrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 10:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-43005</guid>
		<description>latest from greenpeace:

no response yet from don elder, solid energy or any industry front they maintain -

Carbon capture and storage a &quot;scam&quot;
Monday, 12 May 2008, 1:10 pm
Press Release: Greenpeace New Zealand

Carbon capture and storage a &quot;scam&quot; says new report

Auckland, 12 May 2008 â€“ Big business and policy-makers must not succumb to the elusive promise of carbon capture and storage (CCS) to solve the climate crisis, says Greenpeace in a major new report (1).

&#039;False Hope: Why carbon capture and storage won&#039;t save the climate&#039; relies on independent, peer-reviewed scientific sources and details why CCS is a dangerous distraction in the fight against climate change. It reveals that the technology is unproven, risky, and expensive, and will be developed to the detriment of sustainable solutions.
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&quot;Relying on CCS to tackle carbon dioxide emissions from the burning of coal is about as smart as wilfully contracting a disease in the hope that medical science may one day provide a cure,&quot; said Greenpeace New Zealand Climate Campaigner Susannah Bailey.

&quot;The unproven technology for capturing carbon dioxide then dumping it underground remains very much on the drawing board, yet is being promoted by big polluters such as Solid Energy as a way for them to proceed with coal expansion plans (2). Carbon capture and storage is the ultimate coal industry &#039;greenwash&#039; tool.

&quot;The priority should instead be investment in renewable energy and energy efficiency.&quot; Fraught with uncertainties over practicality and cost, CCS technology is not expected to be commercially available before 2030. By then it will be too late for it to play a role in combating climate change. Climate experts agree that global greenhouse gas emissions must peak by 2015 and be at least halved by 2050.

&quot;It is insanity verging on criminal negligence to pass over clean energy and pin hopes on an unproven technology instead,&quot; said the report&#039;s author, Emily Rochon, Climate and Energy Campaigner at Greenpeace International. &quot;Businesses need to reduce their emissions not search for excuses for continuing polluting.

&quot;Enthusiasm for CCS is reaching fever pitch among coal and oil advocates who have lost the battle over whether climate change is a problem. Unable to look beyond the carbon economy, they are desperate to project CCS as the way to continue with &#039;pollution-as-usual&#039;,&quot; said Ms Rochen.

&quot;Just as there is no guaranteed safe way to bury nuclear waste, there is no guaranteed safe way to bury carbon. No matter how much research goes into CCS, the ability to keep this carbon stored under ground for thousands of years can never be guaranteed,&quot; said Ms Bailey. &quot;Even Solid Energy Chief Executive Don Elder acknowledges this (3).

&quot;Every dollar invested in carbon capture and storage research is a wasted dollar if it diverts money away from renewable energy and energy efficiency.&quot;

The Greenpeace report shows that carbon capture technology falls short on numerous counts. Carbon capture has not been made to work on anything approaching the scale needed for a full-scale power plant. And no one has yet successfully combined the &#039;capture&#039; with the &#039;storage&#039; elements of the concept.

The process of capturing and storing carbon is also highly energy intensive. The increased energy requirements of CCS would effectively wipe out the power plant efficiency gains of the last 50 years. For every four CCS-equipped coal-fired power plants, a fifth would be needed just to make up the energy shortfall. CCS could also double plant costs and lead to electricity price hikes estimated between 21 and 91 per cent.

Greenpeace&#039;s Energy Revolution scenario (4) shows that greatly improving energy efficiency and relying on renewable energy could halve global greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, the timeframe for preventing the worst impacts of climate change. Global renewable energy resources are sufficient to meet the world&#039;s energy needs six times over.

Over 85 non-governmental organisations have joined Greenpeace in demanding that CCS not be used as an excuse for building new coal-fired power plants. The signatories include the Environmental Defence Society of New Zealand.

Notes to Editors:

(1) &quot;False Hope: why carbon capture and storage won&#039;t save the climate&quot;, Greenpeace International. May 2008 is available at: www.greenpeace.org/ccs. Also available: the Executive Summary of the report, an information sheet on CCS, three graphics (as PDFs) showing: the process of carbon capture; an overview of geological storage options and leakage pathways and potential impacts of CO2 escape, plus the NGO statement on carbon capture and storage.

(2) Solid Energy recently announced a $100 million investment in clean coal and alternative energy research over the next 20 years, in a bid to develop cleaner ways of burning coal and capturing and storing C02 emissions. Solid Energy is involved in the trial of CCS in Nirranda South, 240km west of Melbourne. The Otway Basin pilot project is the world&#039;s largest demonstration of the deep geological storage of carbon dioxide. It&#039;s partly funded by the New Zealand government and state-owned miner Solid Energy and will inject 100,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide 2km deep over the next two years.

(3) Solid Energy chief executive Don Elder told NZPA last month that it was impossible for industry to guarantee no leakage. In relation to Otway Basin (2) he said: &quot;it is likely that only tiny, almost negligible, amount of the carbon dioxide pumped underground will escape.&quot; He stated that there&#039;s no guarantee that they could abide by regulations that required 99.99 per cent storage over thousands of years. Yet as is noted in False Hope, even if just 0.01 per cent leaks per annum, 50 per cent of the stored carbon dioxide will have leaked within 7000 years. If 1 per cent leaks per annum, 50 per cent will be lost within 70 years.

(4) http://www.greenpeace.org/new-zealand/press/reports/nz-energy-revolution-report

ENDS</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>latest from greenpeace:</p>
<p>no response yet from don elder, solid energy or any industry front they maintain -</p>
<p>Carbon capture and storage a &#8220;scam&#8221;<br />
Monday, 12 May 2008, 1:10 pm<br />
Press Release: Greenpeace New Zealand</p>
<p>Carbon capture and storage a &#8220;scam&#8221; says new report</p>
<p>Auckland, 12 May 2008 â€“ Big business and policy-makers must not succumb to the elusive promise of carbon capture and storage (CCS) to solve the climate crisis, says Greenpeace in a major new report (1).</p>
<p>&#8216;False Hope: Why carbon capture and storage won&#8217;t save the climate&#8217; relies on independent, peer-reviewed scientific sources and details why CCS is a dangerous distraction in the fight against climate change. It reveals that the technology is unproven, risky, and expensive, and will be developed to the detriment of sustainable solutions.<br />
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<p>&#8220;Relying on CCS to tackle carbon dioxide emissions from the burning of coal is about as smart as wilfully contracting a disease in the hope that medical science may one day provide a cure,&#8221; said Greenpeace New Zealand Climate Campaigner Susannah Bailey.</p>
<p>&#8220;The unproven technology for capturing carbon dioxide then dumping it underground remains very much on the drawing board, yet is being promoted by big polluters such as Solid Energy as a way for them to proceed with coal expansion plans (2). Carbon capture and storage is the ultimate coal industry &#8216;greenwash&#8217; tool.</p>
<p>&#8220;The priority should instead be investment in renewable energy and energy efficiency.&#8221; Fraught with uncertainties over practicality and cost, CCS technology is not expected to be commercially available before 2030. By then it will be too late for it to play a role in combating climate change. Climate experts agree that global greenhouse gas emissions must peak by 2015 and be at least halved by 2050.</p>
<p>&#8220;It is insanity verging on criminal negligence to pass over clean energy and pin hopes on an unproven technology instead,&#8221; said the report&#8217;s author, Emily Rochon, Climate and Energy Campaigner at Greenpeace International. &#8220;Businesses need to reduce their emissions not search for excuses for continuing polluting.</p>
<p>&#8220;Enthusiasm for CCS is reaching fever pitch among coal and oil advocates who have lost the battle over whether climate change is a problem. Unable to look beyond the carbon economy, they are desperate to project CCS as the way to continue with &#8216;pollution-as-usual&#8217;,&#8221; said Ms Rochen.</p>
<p>&#8220;Just as there is no guaranteed safe way to bury nuclear waste, there is no guaranteed safe way to bury carbon. No matter how much research goes into CCS, the ability to keep this carbon stored under ground for thousands of years can never be guaranteed,&#8221; said Ms Bailey. &#8220;Even Solid Energy Chief Executive Don Elder acknowledges this (3).</p>
<p>&#8220;Every dollar invested in carbon capture and storage research is a wasted dollar if it diverts money away from renewable energy and energy efficiency.&#8221;</p>
<p>The Greenpeace report shows that carbon capture technology falls short on numerous counts. Carbon capture has not been made to work on anything approaching the scale needed for a full-scale power plant. And no one has yet successfully combined the &#8216;capture&#8217; with the &#8217;storage&#8217; elements of the concept.</p>
<p>The process of capturing and storing carbon is also highly energy intensive. The increased energy requirements of CCS would effectively wipe out the power plant efficiency gains of the last 50 years. For every four CCS-equipped coal-fired power plants, a fifth would be needed just to make up the energy shortfall. CCS could also double plant costs and lead to electricity price hikes estimated between 21 and 91 per cent.</p>
<p>Greenpeace&#8217;s Energy Revolution scenario (4) shows that greatly improving energy efficiency and relying on renewable energy could halve global greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, the timeframe for preventing the worst impacts of climate change. Global renewable energy resources are sufficient to meet the world&#8217;s energy needs six times over.</p>
<p>Over 85 non-governmental organisations have joined Greenpeace in demanding that CCS not be used as an excuse for building new coal-fired power plants. The signatories include the Environmental Defence Society of New Zealand.</p>
<p>Notes to Editors:</p>
<p>(1) &#8220;False Hope: why carbon capture and storage won&#8217;t save the climate&#8221;, Greenpeace International. May 2008 is available at: <a href="http://www.greenpeace.org/ccs" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenpeace.org/ccs</a>. Also available: the Executive Summary of the report, an information sheet on CCS, three graphics (as PDFs) showing: the process of carbon capture; an overview of geological storage options and leakage pathways and potential impacts of CO2 escape, plus the NGO statement on carbon capture and storage.</p>
<p>(2) Solid Energy recently announced a $100 million investment in clean coal and alternative energy research over the next 20 years, in a bid to develop cleaner ways of burning coal and capturing and storing C02 emissions. Solid Energy is involved in the trial of CCS in Nirranda South, 240km west of Melbourne. The Otway Basin pilot project is the world&#8217;s largest demonstration of the deep geological storage of carbon dioxide. It&#8217;s partly funded by the New Zealand government and state-owned miner Solid Energy and will inject 100,000 tonnes of carbon dioxide 2km deep over the next two years.</p>
<p>(3) Solid Energy chief executive Don Elder told NZPA last month that it was impossible for industry to guarantee no leakage. In relation to Otway Basin (2) he said: &#8220;it is likely that only tiny, almost negligible, amount of the carbon dioxide pumped underground will escape.&#8221; He stated that there&#8217;s no guarantee that they could abide by regulations that required 99.99 per cent storage over thousands of years. Yet as is noted in False Hope, even if just 0.01 per cent leaks per annum, 50 per cent of the stored carbon dioxide will have leaked within 7000 years. If 1 per cent leaks per annum, 50 per cent will be lost within 70 years.</p>
<p>(4) <a href="http://www.greenpeace.org/new-zealand/press/reports/nz-energy-revolution-report" rel="nofollow">http://www.greenpeace.org/new-zealand/press/reports/nz-energy-revoluti on-report</a></p>
<p>ENDS
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-43005" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('43005', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-43005-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-43005" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('43005', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-43005-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-43005-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: SleepyTreehugger</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42976</link>
		<dc:creator>SleepyTreehugger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 06:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42976</guid>
		<description>Trevor29 

New Zealand doesn&#039;t require its geothermal powerstations to reinject by law. One of the few in the world apparently. I learnt that Wairaki doesn&#039;t much to my horror after taking a few swims at Fall James on the Waikato river after being told so by my tutor who wasn&#039;t too happy about being a devout environmentalist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trevor29 </p>
<p>New Zealand doesn&#8217;t require its geothermal powerstations to reinject by law. One of the few in the world apparently. I learnt that Wairaki doesn&#8217;t much to my horror after taking a few swims at Fall James on the Waikato river after being told so by my tutor who wasn&#8217;t too happy about being a devout environmentalist.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42976" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42976', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42976-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42976" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42976', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42976-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42976-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor29</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42975</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 06:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42975</guid>
		<description>Modern geothermal plant reinject their waste water, which largely deals with the issues of arenic, sulphides and heavy metals, and (I believe) the CO2 as well. In addition, reinjection also deals with the subsidence problems.

Trevor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Modern geothermal plant reinject their waste water, which largely deals with the issues of arenic, sulphides and heavy metals, and (I believe) the CO2 as well. In addition, reinjection also deals with the subsidence problems.</p>
<p>Trevor.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42975" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42975', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42975-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42975" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42975', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42975-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42975-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: kahikatea</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42960</link>
		<dc:creator>kahikatea</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 04:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42960</guid>
		<description>uk_kiwi Says:
May 12th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

&gt; Geothermal is not the clean green source it is sold as- there are high levels of arsenic and other heavy metals, as well as sulphides and large quantities of dissolved carbon dioxide. Some geothermal generation has 80% of the carbon emissions of a thermal plant per KWh.

All these problems can be solved by using &#039;double-cycle&#039; geothermal generation. This is where the geothermal liquid and gas that comes up is entirely in a closed pipe system, andf all goes back down once you&#039;ve got the heat out of it. It&#039;s called &#039;double-cycle&#039; because the heat from the pipe opf geothermal fluid is transferred to water outside the pipe, and it is the boiling of this water that drives the turbine. AFAIK there is no geothermal plant like this in New Zealand yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>uk_kiwi Says:<br />
May 12th, 2008 at 2:36 pm</p>
<p>&gt; Geothermal is not the clean green source it is sold as- there are high levels of arsenic and other heavy metals, as well as sulphides and large quantities of dissolved carbon dioxide. Some geothermal generation has 80% of the carbon emissions of a thermal plant per KWh.</p>
<p>All these problems can be solved by using &#8216;double-cycle&#8217; geothermal generation. This is where the geothermal liquid and gas that comes up is entirely in a closed pipe system, andf all goes back down once you&#8217;ve got the heat out of it. It&#8217;s called &#8216;double-cycle&#8217; because the heat from the pipe opf geothermal fluid is transferred to water outside the pipe, and it is the boiling of this water that drives the turbine. AFAIK there is no geothermal plant like this in New Zealand yet.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42960" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42960', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42960-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42960" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42960', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42960-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42960-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: uk_kiwi</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42933</link>
		<dc:creator>uk_kiwi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 02:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42933</guid>
		<description>Geothermal is not the clean green source it is sold as- there are high levels of arsenic and other heavy metals, as well as sulphides and large quantities of  dissolved carbon dioxide. Some geothermal generation has 80% of the carbon emissions of a thermal plant per KWh. There is however a massive expansion program going on right now, IIRC due to the new tribal owners of the land being quite pro-active about it. 

I seriously doubt the methanol plant would be anywhere near economic if gas prices rise further- it was closed because of the lousy economics wasn&#039;t it? No doubt it needs vast capital investment too.

There are no magic bullets wrt electricity. The best solution IMHO would be more BIG hydro, more wind, and retaining some thermal for peak. It is ridiculous having Whirinaki running so much, that must be costing a fortune...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geothermal is not the clean green source it is sold as- there are high levels of arsenic and other heavy metals, as well as sulphides and large quantities of  dissolved carbon dioxide. Some geothermal generation has 80% of the carbon emissions of a thermal plant per KWh. There is however a massive expansion program going on right now, IIRC due to the new tribal owners of the land being quite pro-active about it. </p>
<p>I seriously doubt the methanol plant would be anywhere near economic if gas prices rise further- it was closed because of the lousy economics wasn&#8217;t it? No doubt it needs vast capital investment too.</p>
<p>There are no magic bullets wrt electricity. The best solution IMHO would be more BIG hydro, more wind, and retaining some thermal for peak. It is ridiculous having Whirinaki running so much, that must be costing a fortune&#8230;
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42933" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42933', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42933-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42933" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42933', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42933-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42933-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: insider</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42930</link>
		<dc:creator>insider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 02:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42930</guid>
		<description>I think the thermal moratorium has contributed to the failure of the ETS because it has effectively said the ETS will not work. Once that happened all the other sectors could legitmately say - why impose the ETS if you know it won&#039;t work? It was a silly move to achieve political ends that the market was already coping with and ignored the very valued role that thermal plays in supporting a more renewable system. Interesting COntact is saying its &#039;peaking&#039; plants will run 50% of the time. If you think it is going to be expensive running gas, imagine if we are dependent on gas peaking plants...

But I Don&#039;t agree about the LNG -that is a very long way off and still highly speculative. I see Maui just got another 7 years added to its life. Gas has a habit of turning up in greater quantities. 

It should not head off geothermal as much of the geothermal is already in planning and approval if not construction. LNG is nowehre near it. You fail to recognise that geothermal has overpromised in the past and is not without limits. 

And if you are worried about mercury emissions, best not take a swim in the Waikato downstream from Wairakei...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the thermal moratorium has contributed to the failure of the ETS because it has effectively said the ETS will not work. Once that happened all the other sectors could legitmately say &#8211; why impose the ETS if you know it won&#8217;t work? It was a silly move to achieve political ends that the market was already coping with and ignored the very valued role that thermal plays in supporting a more renewable system. Interesting COntact is saying its &#8216;peaking&#8217; plants will run 50% of the time. If you think it is going to be expensive running gas, imagine if we are dependent on gas peaking plants&#8230;</p>
<p>But I Don&#8217;t agree about the LNG -that is a very long way off and still highly speculative. I see Maui just got another 7 years added to its life. Gas has a habit of turning up in greater quantities. </p>
<p>It should not head off geothermal as much of the geothermal is already in planning and approval if not construction. LNG is nowehre near it. You fail to recognise that geothermal has overpromised in the past and is not without limits. </p>
<p>And if you are worried about mercury emissions, best not take a swim in the Waikato downstream from Wairakei&#8230;
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42930" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42930', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42930-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42930" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42930', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42930-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42930-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: StephenR</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42909</link>
		<dc:creator>StephenR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 20:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42909</guid>
		<description>Yeah Ari, I shall stress that that is the impression I get from reading around, not so much any &#039;definitive statement&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah Ari, I shall stress that that is the impression I get from reading around, not so much any &#8216;definitive statement&#8217;.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42909" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42909', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42909-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42909" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42909', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42909-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42909-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: Ari</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42905</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 14:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42905</guid>
		<description>Stephen- I agree with you. I&#039;m supportive of models as our best tool for climate predictions, because there&#039;s no demonstratably better alternative. I just have no illusions that modelling something as complicated as the climate is going to be hard and there will be mistakes- fortunately for us the models have been more forgiving than recently suggested, but the timeframe for action that Labour and National are giving us is probably still too slow even then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen- I agree with you. I&#8217;m supportive of models as our best tool for climate predictions, because there&#8217;s no demonstratably better alternative. I just have no illusions that modelling something as complicated as the climate is going to be hard and there will be mistakes- fortunately for us the models have been more forgiving than recently suggested, but the timeframe for action that Labour and National are giving us is probably still too slow even then.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42905" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42905', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42905-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42905" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42905', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42905-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42905-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: treesoftomorrow</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42895</link>
		<dc:creator>treesoftomorrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 05:16:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42895</guid>
		<description>so whats the govt doing about it besides self congratulation and slow moving policy, that wobbles when industry blows...?

despite admitting we have rising emissions and an image vunerability (clean and green - reality vs marketing), there is money fore motorway after motorway and SOEs pushing hard for coal and gas, and crown minerals and ministers pushing for oil). 

either we want to be sustainable and work on the cost of living... or we are after a quick buck, regardless the consequences.

How much profit are companies like Genesis Energy and Solid Energy making (and Fonterra) and what is the pattern of food and energy costs....?

Labour and National both talk about the cost of living and struggling households... while the likes of Fonterra and SE benefit from those rising costs (price rises - profits).

Sustainable - &#039;clean and green&#039; NZ - ????????????????</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so whats the govt doing about it besides self congratulation and slow moving policy, that wobbles when industry blows&#8230;?</p>
<p>despite admitting we have rising emissions and an image vunerability (clean and green &#8211; reality vs marketing), there is money fore motorway after motorway and SOEs pushing hard for coal and gas, and crown minerals and ministers pushing for oil). </p>
<p>either we want to be sustainable and work on the cost of living&#8230; or we are after a quick buck, regardless the consequences.</p>
<p>How much profit are companies like Genesis Energy and Solid Energy making (and Fonterra) and what is the pattern of food and energy costs&#8230;.?</p>
<p>Labour and National both talk about the cost of living and struggling households&#8230; while the likes of Fonterra and SE benefit from those rising costs (price rises &#8211; profits).</p>
<p>Sustainable &#8211; &#8216;clean and green&#8217; NZ &#8211; ????????????????
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42895" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42895', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42895-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42895" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42895', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42895-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42895-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: StephenR</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42877</link>
		<dc:creator>StephenR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 01:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42877</guid>
		<description>Ari, yeah, surely, but using one example to say that models-plural are wrong is really a bit silly. Especially with the first sentence I quoted. My general impression is that models are good for long term climate, but not so much regional or short term trends...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ari, yeah, surely, but using one example to say that models-plural are wrong is really a bit silly. Especially with the first sentence I quoted. My general impression is that models are good for long term climate, but not so much regional or short term trends&#8230;
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42877" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42877', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42877-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42877" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42877', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42877-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42877-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: Ari</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42870</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 23:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42870</guid>
		<description>Less &quot;models bad&quot;, and more &quot;modelling the climate is freaking hard&quot;, I&#039;d suspect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Less &#8220;models bad&#8221;, and more &#8220;modelling the climate is freaking hard&#8221;, I&#8217;d suspect.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42870" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42870', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42870-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42870" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42870', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42870-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42870-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: jh</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42840</link>
		<dc:creator>jh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 02:14:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42840</guid>
		<description>New Study Released: Warming Models Wrong, Yet Again =/=
Climate Models Overheat Antarctica, New Study Finds..

wrong in some details but not dead as you imply.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New Study Released: Warming Models Wrong, Yet Again =/=<br />
Climate Models Overheat Antarctica, New Study Finds..</p>
<p>wrong in some details but not dead as you imply.
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42840" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42840', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42840-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42840" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42840', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42840-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42840-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: StephenR</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42839</link>
		<dc:creator>StephenR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 01:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42839</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s your point? &#039;Models bad&#039;? How do you reconcile your paragraph with this sentence from the same article?

&quot;Researchers have used atmospheric observations to confirm that computer models are accurately simulating climate for the other six continents.&quot;

I spose one must also take this into consideration:

&quot;they have unique challenges simulating Antarctic climate because of limited information about the continent&#039;s harsh weather patterns.&quot;

&quot;Part of the reason that Antarctica has barely warmed has to do with the ozone hole over the continent.&quot;

Well it&#039;s doing some good! I wonder what the overall rate of melt vs build up is?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What&#8217;s your point? &#8216;Models bad&#8217;? How do you reconcile your paragraph with this sentence from the same article?</p>
<p>&#8220;Researchers have used atmospheric observations to confirm that computer models are accurately simulating climate for the other six continents.&#8221;</p>
<p>I spose one must also take this into consideration:</p>
<p>&#8220;they have unique challenges simulating Antarctic climate because of limited information about the continent&#8217;s harsh weather patterns.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Part of the reason that Antarctica has barely warmed has to do with the ozone hole over the continent.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well it&#8217;s doing some good! I wonder what the overall rate of melt vs build up is?
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42839" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42839', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42839-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42839" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42839', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42839-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42839-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: BluePeter</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42836</link>
		<dc:creator>BluePeter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 May 2008 00:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42836</guid>
		<description>tinyurl.com/57xffu

New Study Released: Warming Models Wrong, Yet Again

&quot;Computer analyses of global climate have consistently overstated warming in Antarctica, concludes new research by scientists at the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) and Ohio State University. While the observed Antarctic temperatures rose by about 0.4 degrees Fahrenheit (0.2 degrees Celsius) over the past century, the climate models simulated increases in Antarctic temperatures during the same period of 1.4 degrees F (0.75 degrees C).&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tinyurl.com/57xffu</p>
<p>New Study Released: Warming Models Wrong, Yet Again</p>
<p>&#8220;Computer analyses of global climate have consistently overstated warming in Antarctica, concludes new research by scientists at the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) and Ohio State University. While the observed Antarctic temperatures rose by about 0.4 degrees Fahrenheit (0.2 degrees Celsius) over the past century, the climate models simulated increases in Antarctic temperatures during the same period of 1.4 degrees F (0.75 degrees C).&#8221;
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42836" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42836', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42836-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42836" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42836', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42836-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42836-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: treesoftomorrow</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42827</link>
		<dc:creator>treesoftomorrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 02:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42827</guid>
		<description>don elder made the headlines......... 

http://www.carbonnews.co.nz/story.asp?storyID=712
ANALYSIS: Will Don Elder today spell out his dream for New Zealand?
Today 9:00am
What did Don Elder hope to achieve by assuming a carbon price of $200 per tonne and almost nil-emissions reduction â€“ to produce a result showing the Government could make a surplus of up to $80 billion from its emissions trading scheme?

When he produced the outrageously successful headline-grabbing rabbit from his hat before yesterdayâ€™s select committee hearing on the emissions trading bill, he must have known its members are in possession of a still-secret paper from Treasury dealing with the same issues.

... login or subscribe for full story</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>don elder made the headlines&#8230;&#8230;&#8230; </p>
<p><a href="http://www.carbonnews.co.nz/story.asp?storyID=712" rel="nofollow">http://www.carbonnews.co.nz/story.asp?storyID=712</a><br />
ANALYSIS: Will Don Elder today spell out his dream for New Zealand?<br />
Today 9:00am<br />
What did Don Elder hope to achieve by assuming a carbon price of $200 per tonne and almost nil-emissions reduction â€“ to produce a result showing the Government could make a surplus of up to $80 billion from its emissions trading scheme?</p>
<p>When he produced the outrageously successful headline-grabbing rabbit from his hat before yesterdayâ€™s select committee hearing on the emissions trading bill, he must have known its members are in possession of a still-secret paper from Treasury dealing with the same issues.</p>
<p>&#8230; login or subscribe for full story
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42827" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42827', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42827-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42827" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42827', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42827-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42827-total" >0</small>)</p>
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		<title>By: treesoftomorrow</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42825</link>
		<dc:creator>treesoftomorrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 01:06:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2008/05/09/scrapping-the-thermal-moratorium-is-a-bad-idea/#comment-42825</guid>
		<description>blue peter - 
this is from WWF - by no means a radical NGO 
---
The most mature coal variety, anthracite - hard, black and lustrous - is nearly pure carbon, and has historically been regarded as useful to humans because of its high energy content. But dirty brown coal, or lignite, produces most CO2 per unit of energy. 






Coal-fired electricity plants are the single-largest source of CO2 emissions.
Â© WWF-Canon / WWF InternationalAbove all, more than a third of all global electricity is generated from coal - it is the power sector&#039;s single biggest source of energy. 
China, the United States and India are the top 3 producers in the world. Poland, South Africa, Australia, China and India all rely on it to produce over 75% of their electricity. 

Half of global mercury emissions come from coal-fired power plants in the Asia-Pacific region, where acid rain costs some $90 billion every year. 

It is these facts that makes the use of coal in electricity generation so significant. That is why the power sector was the focus of the recent WWF PowerSwitch! campaign.
------------
Coal-fired electricity plants are the single-largest source of CO2 emissions
-----------

 The public funds used to subsidise fossil fuel production and consumption could justifiably subsidise...sustainable energy.  
Institute for Sustainable Futures Subsidies that Encourage Fossil Fuel Use in Australia (2003)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>blue peter &#8211;<br />
this is from WWF &#8211; by no means a radical NGO<br />
&#8212;<br />
The most mature coal variety, anthracite &#8211; hard, black and lustrous &#8211; is nearly pure carbon, and has historically been regarded as useful to humans because of its high energy content. But dirty brown coal, or lignite, produces most CO2 per unit of energy. </p>
<p>Coal-fired electricity plants are the single-largest source of CO2 emissions.<br />
Â© WWF-Canon / WWF InternationalAbove all, more than a third of all global electricity is generated from coal &#8211; it is the power sector&#8217;s single biggest source of energy.<br />
China, the United States and India are the top 3 producers in the world. Poland, South Africa, Australia, China and India all rely on it to produce over 75% of their electricity. </p>
<p>Half of global mercury emissions come from coal-fired power plants in the Asia-Pacific region, where acid rain costs some $90 billion every year. </p>
<p>It is these facts that makes the use of coal in electricity generation so significant. That is why the power sector was the focus of the recent WWF PowerSwitch! campaign.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
Coal-fired electricity plants are the single-largest source of CO2 emissions<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p> The public funds used to subsidise fossil fuel production and consumption could justifiably subsidise&#8230;sustainable energy.<br />
Institute for Sustainable Futures Subsidies that Encourage Fossil Fuel Use in Australia (2003)
<p>Like or Dislike: <img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="up-42825" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_up.png" alt="Thumb up" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42825', 'add', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_');" /> <small id="karma-42825-up" style="font-size:12px; color:#009933;">0</small>&nbsp;<img style="padding: 0px; border: none; cursor: pointer;" id="down-42825" src="http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/images/1_14_down.png" alt="Thumb down" onclick="javascript:ckratingKarma('42825', 'subtract', 'blog.greens.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/comment-rating/', '1_14_')" /> <small id="karma-42825-down" style="font-size:12px; color:#990033;">0</small> (<small id="karma-42825-total" >0</small>)</p>
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