Sleepy, I didn’t mean to imply the Moari were at fault. Merely pointing out the reality of raising capital in an Anglocentric world. You could be right about Vogel’s motivation bearing in mind it was the Immigration and Public Works Act that made him famous. If I understand the situation correctly most of the chiefs has a cautionary approach to immigration. Not forgetting the battle between the colonialist’s capitalist economy and the native communist economy was alsways going to be won by whichever side “owned” the most land.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

turnip28.

I’m not a member of a Green Party myself as I’m probably too radical for them. lol My advice for the Greens would be to distance themselves from Labour’s ETS and focus the campaign on Fonterra’s destruction of the country’s waterways, local government’s poor investment in sewage processing and water quality, and issues that will help every day Kiwis deal with the economic crisis that we’re going to find ourselves in next year such as its Universal Basic Income scheme that is one of its policies.

Like Lord Keynes before them, the Greens recognise the flaws in the capitalist (not free market) economic system, but believe that its their duty to ensure government regulates it in order to save it from its natural tendency to destroy itself, for altogether different reasons I’m sure.
tinyurl.com/3g3zez

I’m from the school of thought that realises that if not for the special privileges that governemnt has provided to the capitalists (especially corporations) we wouldn’t be witnessing the scale of environmental degradation and destruction as have occured over the last 150 years.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

jh

You call Sue Bradford, Sue Kedgely, Jeanette Fitzsimons, Keith Locke, Russel Norman and that lot, left-libertarian!? The mind boggles! They’re social democrat “progressives” who profess a concern for the environment in contrast to Labour who’ll profess anything that will appeal to the middle-class, with a few bones thrown to the disadvantaged and thus get them votes.

Kevyn,

Thats more of the fault of the British dominated global finance system at the time not the Maori. Actually if you read James Belich’s books you’d know that the Maori were actually rather successful well before the Maori Wars. They dominated both Trans-Tasman and coastal trade. timber processing, flour milling, etc. It can be argued that Vogel’s expensive (government financed) railroad building scheme was designed to supercede the Maori’s command over coastal shipping facilitated commerce.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Well the thing is Sleepy I don’t disagree with you about the land being stolen from the Maori by the colonial government. However you can’t change the past and its impossible to correct these mistakes fully.

Why doesn’t the green party call for a constitution convention in New Zealand so we can finally sit down and talk about creating a nation that sets out to include all New Zealanders.

the 1986 Constitution Act is a joke along with the New Zealand Bill of Rights. Most of the legislation was created to avoid the constiution crisis created by Muldoon. Parliment can’t legislate a constitution since one purpose of such a document is to limit the power of parliment, its like leting a fox guard the chicken hut.

JH sovereignty is never held by the government a Queen or a Maori Chief, it is held by the people.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Sleepy is quite right. If the colonial government hadn’t stolen Maori lands and sold them to European settlers British investors wouldn’t have lent the capital for Vogel’s immigration and public works program. Aotearoa would have ended up with one-fifth of it’s current population and one-tenth it’s current standard of living. ie most “New Zealander’s” wouldn’t want to be here if the land had remained in iwi ownership with it’s lack of the “single” owner needed for mortgages.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

“As a left-libertarian, I’m pretty ambivalent about the whole question of sovereignty, whether its held by the elected government or Maori chiefs.”
As in the political compass which has the Greens in the libertarian -left outlier position.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Gerrit,

I’m merely responding to turnip’s statement that, “They were never represented during the process and they were never asked to ratify the document.”

As a left-libertarian, I’m pretty ambivalent about the whole question of sovereignty, whether its held by the elected government or Maori chiefs.
Nationalism’s nothing more than a means to subordinate ones individuality for the “universal” group ethos. Pretty convenient for by those who stand to gain from determining what that group ethos is, whether its American neo-conservatism or neo-tribal capitalism.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

STP,

“because most “New Zealandersâ€? are only here, because the colonial stole Maori lands and sold them to European settlers.”

Reminds me of DR Cullens famous words after the last election.

“We won, you lost, eat that”

Or words to that effect.

The world and New Zealland has moved on from the 1870′s.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

turnip28

“Treaty of Waitangi is an exclusive document which excludes most New Zealanders since it was signed by the crown and Maori in what way does it include non-Maori New Zealanders. They were never represented during the process and they were never asked to ratify the document. So the crown that signed the treaty didn’t have the moral authority to do so just as the Maori chief who signed it also didn’t have any moral authority. Enough with the stupid treaty most New Zealanders are sick of it.”

um thats only, because most “New Zealanders” are only here, because the colonial stole Maori lands and sold them to European settlers.

“I have always felt that New Zealand can’t call it self a representive democracy as long as it has racial seats in parliment.”

We can’t call our “nation” a representative democracy, because “we” AREN’T one! We’re a constitutional monarchy with an ad hoc basis in law, which is neither codified nor entrenched.

It can be argued that the 1986 Constitution Act usurped the sovereignty of New Zealanders by not subjecting it to the people’s mandate through a referendum.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Sorting The Treaty out is simple.
The Treaty is between Tangata Whenua and The Crown.
Tangata Whenua= all born New Zealanders.
Problem solved.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Yeah, the Greens act like a bunch of 16 year olds. Time to grow up.
The Daily Kos* is taking care of the US, we don’t need Peace Justice Aotearoas help. Better not to miss the boat at home and ask what we have achieved in attaining a sustainable [Green] economy, healthy lifestyle and Values.

http://www.dailykos.com/

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

>>The only “blowback� we are ever going to see in NZ will be from the majority finally getting pissed off with this whole process.

Hear, hear.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Countdown to $200 oil (4) – It’s scheduled for 1/20/09
by Jerome a Paris
Fri May 09, 2008 at 09:22:46 AM PDT
/ /
In addition, the economy will be in full meltdown mode by then, and oil and other commodity price increases are a large contributing factor – whether they are seen as a consequence of global world growth, or of the loose monetary policies of the past few years, they reflect inflationary pressures that have long been visible in asset prices and made tolerable to our policy makers because they did not translate into wage increases, thanks to global corpocratic/kleptocratic neoliberal economic policies. (In turn, wage stagnation was made tolerable by turning houses into ATMs and making everybody believe they could turn into a millionaire one day).
Oil price increases are just a real life manifestation of the precept that you cannot have your cake and eat it – real wealth – for the whole economy – needs to be created, not just shuffled around or looted (that only works for a few, and only for some time)*. Oil, and commodities, represent real wealth, and their price increases suggest that the rest of the economy is no longer producing as much actual value as it used to – a general depreciation of money.

I’ve already said that we’re actually lucky to have a recipe that can take care of both the economy and the energy crisis at the same time:

* launch a massive plan to subsidize home energy efficiency improvements – that will help the devastated construction sector, create lots of jobs, and help reduce the energy bill massively;

* reinforce efforts to build renewable energy plants. The current support system works, and needs not be changed, but massive investment in the grid, and in working but still-too-expensive technologies like solar power should be done or supported by government. Again, this will create plenty of jobs locally, and will help move away from oil and climate-deadly coal.

* massive investment in infrastructure – in particular focusing on intercity rail and local transit networks and a large scale would also appear to provide excellent bang for the buck.
[Sounds inflationary?]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/5/9/114946/4807/1003/512592

* http://www.richmastery.com

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Good point jh, I myself don’t understand the Green parties commitment to Tino Rangitiratanga.

What drives me nuts are all the crazy New Zealanders who look to the treaty as some kind of founding document or constitution upon which we can establish a New Zealand State. The Treaty of Waitangi is an exclusive document which excludes most New Zealanders since it was signed by the crown and Maori in what way does it include non-Maori New Zealanders. They were never represented during the process and they were never asked to ratify the document. So the crown that signed the treaty didn’t have the moral authority to do so just as the Maori chief who signed it also didn’t have any moral authority. Enough with the stupid treaty most New Zealanders are sick of it.

The only “blowback” we are ever going to see in NZ will be from the majority finally getting pissed off with this whole process.

In order for New Zealand to be a true state no ethnic group under the law may have any other privilleges than any other group. I have always felt that New Zealand can’t call it self a representive democracy as long as it has racial seats in parliment. How come people who are 1/8 Chinese don’t get their own seats in parliment as well. The MMP system frees the need for having the Maori seats. If Maori people feel the need for representation in parliment then they can vote for a Maori party using their party vote.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Playing the Iraq Oil Card
If anyone had any doubt that Iraq was a lot about oil, they shouldn’t after the recent Capitol Hill appearance by our ambassador to Baghdad, Ryan Crocker. In a closed House hearing, Crocker put the fear of god in Congress. His message: If we leave Iraq, Iraq will destabilize the Gulf, and

With oil bumping pushing past $120 a barrel, you can bet you could hear a pin drop in the room. But what exactly was he talking about? Iraqi Shi’a militias invading Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, burning their oil fields, driving the price of gasoline up to $10 a gallon and us into a depression? Crocker wouldn’t elaborate on his vague warnings, preferring to leave it at a sense of dread.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1738883,00.html

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

No but I thought Phill was referring to the same thing happening here, as there are Green Party members who see that as understandable and inevitable (unless we recognise Tino Rangitiratanga).

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Kevyn – There is no going to the mall for any retail therapy here in the US right now since the US consumer has run out of money. Our government handout checks are starting to arrive but $600 isn’t going to last long.

Obama can talk but their is no substance behind him.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

oh so jh you are in denial about the causes of 9/11 I see.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

Sorry I didn’t think that was what you were getting at. Turnip talked about 9/11 “blowback”.

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)

what sort of ‘stuff”..?

you surely aren’t denying we in new zealand have an environmental ‘chit’ we all have to pay..?

do you really think we can just keep on wrecking this place..and that there will be no ‘price to pay’..?

if so..you can go and stand over there..with all the others who are in denial..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)

Like or Dislike: 0  0 (0)