You obviously have your reasons for giving up your right to remain anonomous. Just as I have resons to keep my anonymity. But if you decide to give up that right, you have to realise that whatever you say and do may be used against you in public arguements. I let people know that I was an ex military man despite knowing that it would be used against me. Funny that nobody asked what Corps I was in though. Or was there an assumption that all soldiers are trained to kill (now theres a hint)?

I’d say that you could be right in your assumption that Waihopia does some work that might be seen as inappropriate, but just because someone drives a Ferrari doesn’t mean they automaticly drive over the speed limit.

Surely even an anarchist would agree that you can’t just go accusing people of something based on an assumption, and the fact that they “might” be up to no good.

If you were to use the CIA evidence that the Bush administration dismissed before attacking Iraq I would fully support you on that one though. Dispite what some readers here might think, I was totally against the invasion of Iraq. And at least with that arguement, the evidence has already been put on the table by the CIA.

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Contrary to what you say, I’ve never claimed Waihopai was involved in the war in Iraq. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a link, but I know of no hard evidence that it is so involved.

“Well Sam are you bothered when you sh*t on the same people you seem to praise? ”

No. Things aren’t back and white. Are institutions that do something useful at times beyond criticism at others? This isn’t about abusing particular people, it’s about the role institutions play, and those institutions do good work at times and highly dubious work at others.

In the case of Waihopai, I do not believe the government can be trusted with information on its own, and other, citizens. I am consider it likely that it will use information to smear its opponents and undermine dissent. It might, for example, by being highly selective in the information it releases, misrepresent people it disagrees with and thus undermine their views. Rather like you’ve just done.

“Yes I did deliberately leave out the fact that the charges were dropped Sam. I did it for the same reason that you leave out certain information also.”

If you want to indulge deceitful ad hominum attacks from a position of anonymity, please do it elsewhere. Frankly, if you are admitting deliberately trying to smear me with information you knew to be inaccurate, I don’t think I want to have discussions with you.

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Ok lets put it this way Sam.

As you said before,
“It’s a bit like the info on Genoa you posted aboput me. Either deliberately or from not having done your homework, you presented information that in isolation it makes me look like a violent nut,”

but most importantly you said,

“… if you know the full story, things look very different.”

And the thing that that you and your anti Waihopai mates have been leaving out “Either deliberately or from not having done your homework”
is that your claims of Waihopai being used for evil are based on speculation and hearsay.

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“Yes I did deliberately leave out the fact that the charges were dropped Sam. ”

What exactly is that reason? I find your argument difficult to follow.

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Yes I did deliberately leave out the fact that the charges were dropped Sam. I did it for the same reason that you leave out certain information also.
You (like some of your counterparts) claim that the Waihopia base is involved in some way in the war in Iraq, because it is a government operation, and it’s goings on are kept secret. But there is no real evidence that you can base your claim on. Just speculation and hear say.
You conveniently leave that little bit of information out, because if you included it, it would show the biggest hole in your theory.

Tell me Sam, who was it that wrote these little gems?

“And calling wars ‘peace-keeping’ doesn’t make them not wars.”

“…the current armed forces, who actively recruit people to go and fight overseas…”

“I’ve praised the NZDF for its mine-clearing and UXO work on several occasions. The air force does some search and rescue at times and fisheries protection, which is no bad thing, though it’s coastguard work rather than military work. I don’t actually think the NZDF (or the army at least, which is the branch I’ve had most contact with) is that bad a bunch.”

“But there’s an awful lot not being said”

Well Sam are you bothered when you sh*t on the same people you seem to praise? And are you bothered that there is an awful lot not being said by you too?

I read an interesting account from a guy who was at the Gonoa protest and the parts quoted here may give some insight as to why the police overreacted. I’m not saying the police were right, but it does let you see the situation from a different angle, and makes you realise that the unprovoked attack wasn’t entirely unprovoked

Then many near me start to shout “Assassini!” (“Murderers!”) and raise one finger up at them. This is a reference to the protester who was shot dead yesterday. He was ransacking and smashing a police car which had been isolated from the others. A scared, rookie soldier inside the car shot out the window, killing him.

“What is the point of the protesters coming here and simply shouting against the police? They aren’t the real enemy. A this point the Carabinieri haven’t performed their brutal raid beating up sleeping protesters; that will happen later tonight. For now, shouldn’t we protesters be concentrating on telling the G8 leaders what they should be doing?

“Drop the Debt” is a much better slogan. I see no protesters actually shouting about any of the underlying issues, and feel isolated from the crowd. Guys, don’t protest against, but demonstrate for!

I don’t like this police goading. I don’t trust the protesters or the police. I’m nervous and worried that someone will provoke a response out of someone else, and I’ll get hit in the crossfire. Luckily, there are 100,000 people here and we’re surely a long way from any trouble.

Those aren’t my words Sam, they are from a guy who was at the sumit to call for cancellation of third world debt.

The judge in your case in Genoa threw out the charges because there was no evidence, and I would expect that he even knew about what had happened the day before too.

You and your Ploughshares buddies have no evidence in your quest to have Waihopai closed, and yet for some reason you persist in your unfounded claims that it is used for evil purposes.
There are a few similarities between the unfounded protests against the Waihopai base, and the unprovoked attack on the protesters at Genoa.

There was unrest the previous day in Genoa, which maybe made the police speculate that there could be worse trouble the next day.
Although no real evidence can prove it.

The Waihopai Base is used to gather information which may be sensitive to our security, hence the information is kept secret from the general public. There is a war on the other side of the planet, so you speculate that maybe Waihopia has something to do with it.
Although no real evidence can prove it.

The big difference is that the charges against you were dropped when it was discovered that the evidence to arrest you was unfounded.

Of course it doesn’t mean that you weren’t planning something.
Or would that just be unfounded speculation too?

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Sam

Waihopai spy base might even find out something that would save the life of thousands on innocent civilians, it might help prevent another 9/11.

Why are you so intent on protecting the rights of terrorists?

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“If you can find out information on someone then you know who you are dealing with, and you don’t need to make decisions based on assumptions, and you can decide whether they are a threat or not. That’s reasonable isn’t it?”

Trouble is, Doug, we are dealing with people (i.e. the NZ and US governments who can’t be trusted with information. As you pointed out, the US government misused info on Iraq for its own political ends.

It’s a bit like the info on Genoa you posted aboput me. Either deliberately or from not having done your homework, you presented information that in isolation it makes me look like a violent nut, if you know the full story, things look very different. We have every reason to suppose that our government treats info the same way – take Zaoui, whatever you think of him, the government’s line “we have secret information, but we aren’t going to tell anyone what it is” is a line that can’t be accepted.

Do you really think Helen Clark can be trusted to tell us what Waihopai has come up with without putting her own spin on it?

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Doug T. I get the feeling that even if someone who might be arrested for something yet is later released based on a wrong conviction would still be persecuted by you as having committed that crime. Might I ask why?

Guilt by association enough for you eh? Just another David Hicks. Hold him in a solitary confinement cell the size of a small toilet for five years and then send him home to serve more – who care whether he’s innocent or not! Gosh, wtf does that matter!

—–

Ahmed Zaoui is a free man, no thanks to the NZ government who in a disgusting display of their own ignorance had him imprisoned without fair trial or charge for more years than I could ever imagine. Mr. Zaoui is not guilty of anything other than coming from a country with a corrupt government that spread rumors about him – a democratically elected MP. Subsequently a few European governments in a ‘war on terror’ mindset took those rumors as truth (despite their dubious source), which resulted in his fleeing to New Zealand. There seems to a number of people who just don’t seem to get the guy is not guilty of anything.

Being a democratically elected MP, overthrown and then convicted as a “terrorist” in absentia by the terrorist government who overthrew you is a f*ing joke. Then to be convicted by two European governments of terrorism on that basis, again without being there to defend yourself – is equally deplorable. Then again to be held and imprisoned in NZ (a supposed human rights defender of countries – another f*ing deplorable joke) for five years – well, I personally would never recover from my disgrace in the human race. The guy, like those released from Guantanamo Bay this weekend – deserve a f*ing medal!

I am sure Mr. Zaoui wouldn’t approve of the swearing, but I am so over it.

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The reason I brought up the G8 protest was because that is a classic example of what I was talking about when protests are hijacked by violent extreemists.

The protesters said

“We want to protest against this and show the alternatives.”

And this was the alternative that the world saw

“Masked protesters have broken up paving stones to use as projectiles and overturned and torched several vehicles, spreading a pall of black smoke over the area.”

Can you not see why there is little support for your causes when people like myself see this sort of thing?

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Not that we’re anti American

I don’t mind if they thwart a terrorist, catch people laundering money or get an angle on what our trading partenors are up to. I think we should leave it to Matt Simmons, Richard Hienberg Senator Bartlett (Republican) and a myriad of other people to influence the course of the American Government. Anyone read Whiskey and Gun Powder,or, Daily Reckoning?

Seems to be an issue of facts here about Waihopai

Eredwen says:

Some of the material that passes through Waihopai (that NZ does not even see, much less “vet�) could implicate Aotearoa New Zealand in War Crimes, or Crimes Against Humanity. I for one do not want this for the victims, nor for my country, (and definitely not for my descendants to have to live with.)

Peter Cousins from the Center for Strategic Studies at Victoria University says it is “wholly owned and operated property of NZ Govt. There are no foreigners based here. Scare mongers say it goes to Washington DC� If we have material we will trade it with Washington DC . The military use more covert means.

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“…if I don’t know who you are. That’s reasonable isn’t it?”

That is one of the reasons governments spy on each other, Its also why protest groups are spied on. If you can find out information on someone then you know who you are dealing with, and you don’t need to make decisions based on assumptions, and you can decide whether they are a threat or not. That’s reasonable isn’t it?

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Actually, I don’t really care about your name, Doug, I was just making the point that I can’t really answer your question:

“Can you think of any reason I might be a risk to this country or the people in it?”

…if I don’t know who you are. That’s reasonable isn’t it?

“Assuming you are the same Sam Buchanan that was arrested in Genoa 2001 during the G8 summit protests, maybe you could understand why I wouldn’t give my name to you.

“All of the protestors have been simultaneously charged with four charges including unlawful association, possession of a weapon, obstructing police and attempted murder. It is believed that the attempted murder charge is in relation to the death of protester Carlo Giuliana.â€?”

Yes that’s me, but hang on – haven’t you been arguing for the rule of law all along? And since the judge in this case said there was no evidence, that the arrests were illegal and threw out all the charges after a ten-minute hearing, why does this have any bearing on revealing your name to me?

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So you must be against people Like Zaoi then.

He fought the government of Algeria because they were afraid he would win the election (which ment that they were worried that the majority agreed with him).

So if you agree with Zaoi, you aree with majority rule.

And if you had it your way, would you support any other minority groups that wanted to overthrow your government?

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A democracy can be a very evil form of government since it is simply the tyranny of the majority, so in order to have a free country we need to accept protest against laws that violate our self-evident rights. Even more so when we live in a country like New Zealand that has a very poor implimentation on human rights, we don’t even have a true Bill of Rights.

Your arguments DougT that if you disagree with the law you should become the government is absurd, how does a minority become the government under a democracy (tyranny of the mob).

It is because of the reason above that a real nation should and needs to have a constitution to protect the minority from the majority.

Since our spy bases along with the GCSB are all closed and not open how do we the people know how our tax dollars are being spent. A society which values liberty simply can’t have any parts of its government closed from the public. Only the abilitiy of the people to scrutinise government will lead to a free society.

Here is a question for people which of these 2 forms of society would you live under, which is more free?

1) Live under a democracy without an enshrined constitution that protects the citizens rights and limits the powers of government.

2) Live under a dictatorship but with an enshrined constitution that protects the citizens rights and limits the powers of government.

It should be clear from above that democracy does not equal freedom.

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It looks like you guys have made alot of assumptions about what I was talking about.
Personally I don’t agree with Bush’s Iraq war, and I even pointed out that the CIA had also disagreed to the reasons for starting it. I have never believed that the war in Iraq was justified, and you won’t find any comments of mine saying that I did think it was.

Go ahead guys. Protest. You have the right to do it in this country.
But if someone does decide to take it too far, it’s not going to look good for your cause. It just makes people angry at you, like you are angry at me for exercising my right to disagree with you.

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Why do we just have to live with it Doug T? I know my rights and the rights of others. I will never just accept something because some other ‘person’ (governments are only made up of people – not necessarily more capable or intelligent than I – and democracy is not flawless, it needs to be kept in check) dictated to me that I must. I’d rather find out for myself whether it is actually just.

Spy bases in this country are a waste of money and violate the right to privacy. As Sam said, the activists were welcome to slash my share…

The best way to measure whether the government is acting rightfully in my opinion is whether it is in line with the universal declaration of human rights – you know those things called rights… laid out in international law – for us all to enjoy, the rights that our grandfathers and grandmothers fought hard for. Why would we accept anything less that those rights to be respected for ourselves and for others?

I agree with non-violent direct action when governments or companies violate international law, particularly human rights law.

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Doug T

I suspect that you have chosen the wrong forum in which to “cast your pearls”.

Do I detect a heavy American influence upon your way of thinking, and the way in which you write?

Please don’t assume that Kiwis know little of the USA.
One example: My brother and family (all Greens) are American citizens. As a serviceman during the Vietnam War, he worked as a surgeon in a (Kiwi) field hospital for civilians in Vietnam. At the time he decided that “we were on the wrong side”. (“History” has proved him right.)

There are many American citizens (including currently serving service men and women) who have reached similar conclusions about the current “wars”.

Why, do you think, did the USA attack and then invade Afghanistan, and then Iraq (and, unless stopped, will invade Iran ?)

The growing number of Greens in the USA, seem to think very much like their Kiwi counterparts. With a few changes to the USA’s seriously outdated voting systems, who knows what might be possible?

eredwen

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good point sam. always try peaceful means first. but what can you do when even the green party wont advocate for the oppressed cannabis folk of NZ, and extortioned taxpayer, paying for more and more and more prisons.

(crime growth industry =secret Labour party agenda)

incidently to jail all half million kiwi weed people will require another 1000 prisons. bad news for the NZ taxpayer but could be great for economic growth….and im getting more and more in favour of putting P somewhere safer than class A too – how about class D or medicalised?

meanwhile my post from this afternoon about he difference between democracy and democrisy (ie unprincipled/ill informed/ scaremongered majority rule) is not there.

what are you doing with my posts frogs? I am getting a bit annoyed about this. some of my posts go straight up on frogblog, some appear the next day and some never at all (that i know of).

does anyone else have this problem, or is frog just picking on me

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it’s ok..!..relax everybody..!

we can just ignore doug t…

he’s an army-head..!

(a former military man..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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Why is my name so important to you Sam?
Are you concerned that I am some kind of threat to you?

Assuming you are the same Sam Buchanan that was arrested in Genoa 2001 during the G8 summit protests, maybe you could understand why I wouldn’t give my name to you.

“All of the protestors have been simultaneously charged with four charges including unlawful association, possession of a weapon, obstructing police and attempted murder. It is believed that the attempted murder charge is in relation to the death of protester Carlo Giuliana.”

My appologies if I have mistaken you for one of the nut jobs I was talking about earlier.

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