by frog
Yesterday’s action by the Ploughshares Christian activists brings civil disobedience to the public consciousness again. Civil disobedience and non violent resistance are important strands of the broader Green movement. Greens have often had a close affinity both for the causes and the methods of many civil disobedience movements from Bastion Point, the anti Springbok tour and the Nuclear Free protests, to today’s Save Happy Valley Coalition and others.
There is a rich intellectual tradition to civil disobedience. It cannot be easily dismissed as ‘vandalism’ or ‘crime’. By engaging in civil disobedience the participants are not merely committing a crime. They are forcing the people whom they are protesting against to confront their own actions and test whether those actions meet the test of their own ethical beliefs. For many civil disobedience is also about the motive expressed in the Ghandi quote that I used for this post’s title.
Peter Suber’s essay on civil disobedience is a succinct introduction to much of the intellectual tradition behind the practice, and Henry David Thoreau’s earlier and longer essay Civil Disobedience is also a fascinating insight into the theory behind such resistance. (Thoreau famously went to jail in the USA for refusing to pay tax in protest against war). Martin Luther King said of Thoreau:
I became convinced that non-cooperation with evil is as much a moral obligation as is cooperation with good. No other person has been more eloquent and passionate in getting this idea across than Henry David Thoreau. As a result of his writings and personal witness, we are the heirs of a legacy of creative protest.
Uniquely, New Zealand’s most famous and probably original non-violent protestors preceded much of this. Te Whiti, Tohu and the people of Parihaka who resisted the confiscation of their lands in the Taranaki in the 19th century by erecting fences across the roads, ploughing up survey lines and paddocks and removing survey pegs.
Yesterday’s Ploughshares actions sits squarely in the middle of this tradition forcing us to confront the existence of the Waihopai spy base and its violent purposes.
Anyway, you can join the debate one way or another by supporting the Ploughshares movement (I assume they are going to need financial help with their upcoming legal costs) or by supporting the US government to build more spybases. As always, it’s your choice.
Published in Justice & Democracy | Society & Culture by frog on Thu, May 1st, 2008
Tags: civil disobedience, echelon, Frog, frogblog, ghandi, green party, greens, martin luther king, new zealand, non violent, parihaka, peter suber, ploughshares, resistence, spy base, te whiti, thoreau, tohu, Waihopai
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
How is this civil disobedience?
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good post frog..it has heft..
i’ll link ya..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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How selective.
Do you know what TCP/IP is?
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How’s this then I pay US Federal tax, the US use’s this money to fight the war in Iraq.
Should I stop paying it?
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Do you want to be told what to do?
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Trouble is frog, where do you draw the line.
eg, Blocking a coal train by tying oneself acrosss the rail is acceptable I would gues by the tone of post.
However the next step, if that kind of civil disobedience has no effect, would be to blow up a bridge or something as dramatic.
Would you support that type of action?
How far away is todays civil disobedience from tommorrows terrorism?
Where do you personally, and perhaps as importantly the Greens, draw the line?
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I would prefer to delete that last post turnip, seeing as it was a rhetorical question (whoops), and replace it with ‘be the change…’ If one thought it’ll change things and were willing to pay the consequences, go for gold.
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“How far away is todays civil disobedience from tommorrows terrorism? ”
Miles away, Gerrit. The first is a matter of taking responsibility for what is being done in your name, with your money or against something that is being inflicted on you. The other is taking authority over people and trying to force them to do what you want them to do.
It seems many people today have abandoned a long tradition of moral and ethical reasoning, for a simplistic answer: “is it against the law or not?” This is a shame as it places responsibility for ethics on a government which, demonstrably, cannot be trusted to make ethical or moral decisions.
It also leads to inanities along the lines of “people who drive faster than the speed limit are breaking the law, so are the same as murderers” or “people who damage a spy base are the same as terrorists”.
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The only one going to suffer here is the NZ taxpayer, with Helen Clark speculating on TV3 news it may cost up to $1,000,000 to repair the damage. If the “Ploughshares christian activists” really want to do something for world peace why don’t they try targeting Al Qaeda, Hamas, Iran and all the other real promoters of violence ? They might find these groups a little less tolerant of dissent than the NZ & US governments.
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i applaud their stunt, Nice one fellas. What a stupid big air tent to protect what??? F**k anyone who works for the clampdown.
seems to me the spy base is part of the same USA govt imperialist bullshit as their god-damned wars and interference in other countrys business.
(and i include of course the War on Drugs which is instrumental in global war-mongering, the need for ‘tougher security measures’ and the biggest protection racket/global oppression/exploitation of all, if ever there was one).
a spy base means nothing to ordinary NZers. wahopai and tangimoana (and lord knows what else) are there to protect the oppressive forces from democracy it seems.
meanwhile, how often do we hear for example how the illicit drug trafficking funds terrorism? At the same time alienation is nurtured by the imposition on liberty.
When is Keith Locke going to make the connection, and the greens take susstained position against our domestic repression regarding cannabis enforcement. stop the war on drugs and the war on terror melts away… are you dumb Keith, or just chicken?
pull the pin on cannabis-law and our pathetic domestic crime rate (/criminalisation) will also take a dive.
as tariana says, ‘the police have more than enough power…’
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I applaud the fact that they stood up for their convictions. I also hope that they get prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Destroying property is violent protest. You can make your point without leaving us with only one ball.
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weedeater Says:
May 1st, 2008 at 11:02 am
“seems to me the spy base is part of the same USA govt imperialist bullshit as their god-damned wars and interference in other countrys business.”
I don’t recall the invasion of Iraq being based on particularly reliable intelligence. But having said that, I agree that they’re part of the same military complex. I believe New Zealand should have pulled out of the Echelon system in 2003 in protest at the invasion of Iraq by the US, UK and Australia, which are 3 of our 5 partners in the Echelon system.
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Cutting that dome isn’t civil disobedience, even though its quite funny, and I certainly don’t condemn their actions. But what they did is straightforward vandalism. If its a military asset then you could argue for something worse.
Civil disobedience is exactly what it says – disobedience. So attaching yourself to a JCB (or lying in front of same and refusing to move when told to do so) – this is civil disobedience. Breaking and entering, and then willfully destroying stuff – bad. Sort of thing that makes Greenpeace unsupportable by vast quantities of the population.
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What have Greenpeace ‘destroyed’? Or does ‘breaking and entering’ apply to unfurling banners on coal plants?
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Sam,
Terrorism = “…taking authority over people and trying to force them to do what you want them to do.”
So civil disobedience such as stopping a coal train has nothing to do with “trying to force them what you want them to do”
ie. stop coal exports?
I must be missing something but is that not the purpose of your civil disobedience. To stop people doing what you dont want them to do.
If your civil disobedience activists were to blow up a rail bridge to stop them doing what you want them to do” You would support them Sam?
My question to you Sam is the same as to frog, Where do you draw the line?
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Stopping one or two coal trains is different to blowing up civilian infrastructures, or bombing hospitals.
No one had blown up a rail bridge, or buildings. What people have done is raised awareness about issues, and done it openly.
Terrorism would be the NZ army bombing the Australian parliament, or bombing a village in West Papua.
It is not someone blocking a boat or attacking military equipment. What was done at Waihopai was an attack against property, not an attack against a person or a people.
Read about NVDA – Non Violent Direct Action. It is a form of activism. Civil Disobedience
————————-
Civil disobedience is the active refusal to obey certain laws, demands and commands of a government, or of an occupying power, without resorting to physical violence. It is one of the primary tactics of nonviolent resistance. In its most nonviolent form (known as ahimsa or satyagraha) it could be said that it is compassion in the form of respectful disagreement.
Civil disobedience is one of the many ways people have rebelled against unfair laws. It has been used in many well-documented nonviolent resistance movements in India (Gandhi’s social welfare campaigns and campaigns for independence from the British Empire), in South Africa in the fight against apartheid, in the American Civil Rights Movement, and in peace movements worldwide. One of its earliest massive implementations was by Egyptians against the British occupation in the nonviolent 1919 Revolution.
The American author Henry David Thoreau pioneered the modern theory behind this practice in his 1849 essay Civil Disobedience, originally titled “Resistance to Civil Government”. The driving idea behind the essay was that of self-reliance, and how one is in morally good standing as long as one can “get off another man’s back”; so one doesn’t have to physically fight the government, but one must not support it or have it support one (if one is against it). This essay has had a wide influence on many later practitioners of civil disobedience. In the essay, Thoreau explained his reasons for having refused to pay taxes as an act of protest against slavery and against the Mexican-American War.
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was anyone violently attacked?
was attacking a military instillation (the spy base) preventing violence?
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“I must be missing something but is that not the purpose of your civil disobedience. To stop people doing what you dont want them to do. ”
I think that what you are missing is who is in charge. When we own things (such as the Waihopai base or Solid Energy) or have people acting in our name, we have a right to decide what they do. Likewise when something impacts on us, we have a right to take part in decisions made about how that something is done. This is democracy.
If the people who run things don’t allow us democratic control over them, we have a right to civil disobedience.
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Sam,
Thats cool and I understand what you are saying. But where do you draw the line?
We own the rail bridge, we own solid energy using our railways lines to transport coal, we dont like coal export. So we blow up a bridge.
Sounds like reasonable civil disobedience to me.
Or is (pun intended) a bridge to far.
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You can exercise your democratic rights in the November election, you have no right to commit criminal & terrorist acts.
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“Sounds like reasonable civil disobedience to me. ”
I would argue that other issues come in to play – the risk of harming somebody and the political consequences would seem to me to make blowing up a bridge a seriously wrong option in this case.
On the other hand, if you are talking about French people, under Nazi occupation in 1943, then blowing up a bridge might well be a reasonable thing to do. You can’t expect an action to be right or wrong without examining the circumstances in which it is performed.
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I fully agree that nobody has any right (ever) to conduct terrorist acts.
I don’t agree that the right to vote for a party, with a package of policies, no accountability to its purported policies once elected, and no constraints on its power in office, once every three years, constitutes democracy.
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But you do seem to think it is ok to commit criminal acts Sam ? Doesn’t sound like democracy sounds like anarchy.
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Anarchism and democracy are the same thing, aren’t they?
Please read my previous reply to Gerrit on the subject of allowing a government to decide what is moral or ethical.
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criminal is a rather vague term – if it was legal for Nazi’s to commit genocide is it then ok with you?
It wasn’t legal for solid energy to use thompson and clark to spy on the happy valley group by hiring people to infiltrate (and infiltrate other groups), but that was ignored by the law.
whose definition of criminal are you going by?
if it was legal to dump nuclear waste in the ocean would you be ok with it mawgxxxxiv? surely you see the law is not always the same for those who stand before it. last time i heard a judge she said” different justice for different people…
makes you think….
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The definition of criminality in the statutes passed into law by the democratically elected government of this country.
There are many laws in this country I personally detest. The ones requiring me to pay taxes and rates that are then wasted on ideologically mandated but pointless public transport systems or given as benefits to cigarette smoking solo mums particularly gall me. However that is the way democracy works, you just gotta ” Suck it Up” or move somewhere more to your liking.
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Pretty sad, this “I’ll just let the government do my thinking for me and obey orders” attitude, and rather irresponsible, but very common in NZ.
However, if you want to take a legalistic point of view, shouldn’t you be obeying the rangatira, whose right to rule was enshrined in the Treaty of Waitangi?
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Sam,
“shouldn’t you be obeying the rangatira, whose right to rule was enshrined in the Treaty of Waitangi?”
Yep ,lets and then see what real “civil disobedience” is really like!
You and frog though, are still to decide how far you would go.
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I thought I was fairly clear that it’s not clear? : )
It all depends on the circumstances we find ourselves in – which actually is much the same as the law says anyway. Ploughshares activists overseas have smashed up military equipment and were aquitted by the courts on the grounds that they were preventing a greater crime.
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WHAT?! Got a reference?
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Try this one, StephenR.
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And this one.
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Oh, and this one.
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Now that I think of it, I guess that could be the basis for an acquittal.
That was certainly interesting though (the indymedia one)
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I’d assume that the anti spy base group are pro Teliban then?
After all the attack on the World Trade Centre was a retaliation against the US who the anti spy spy base group despise so much too.
The anti spy nuts seem to forget that the CIA got the intel on Iraq right in the first place. (but they won’t mention this in their rebuttals to this comment). The CIA told Bush there was no proof of WMDs in Iraq and no link to Bin Laden either. The spys did a good job.
If you want to rubbish my comment, that’s fine, but answer this question at the end.
How many protesters have ever protested against the wrong thing?
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You can assume anything you like, Doug, it’s your own mind. If you want to assume peace activists are anti-American or there are fairies at the bottom of your garden, or the Taliban are hiding under your bed, go right ahead.
So what’s the point spending millions collecting intelligence if politicians are going to ignore it anyway?
In answer to your question: don’t know, haven’t kept count. Quite a few I would guess. Back in the eighties there was a pro-ANZUS demo in Auckland that three people attended. Then there was the one guy with a US flag outside the last Labour Party conference. Thousands of people have protested in favour of the Chinese Olympics recently. The Burmese government regularly organises pro-government demos that have huge turnouts (you get arrested for not going).
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If you had half the intelegence that you guys think you have, you would support the evidence that was gathered by the CIA. Instead you want to ban the gathering of intelegence by agencies like the CIA.
If you got what you wanted, there would be no way that you could actually prove that the Bush administration started an illegal war in Iraq.
The evidence for your cause is right there in front of you, and all you can do is spit on the agencies that got it for you.
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There’s a discussion on RNZ re the Waihopai Spy base:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/national/aft/the_panel_part_110
They interview someone from the center for Strategic Studies.
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Didn’t the ploughshares just use swords?
So which is it peace or war?
I’m confused.
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Frog says:
There is a rich intellectual tradition to civil disobedience.
“Rich” as in compost. Critical thinking is a better tradition
“Public debate is all too often characterized by repetitive contributions, digressions, argumentative fallacies, rhetorical flourishes, manipulative framing, obfuscation and personal attacks that result in a high noise-to-signal ratio and confusion rather than clarity.”
Having listened to the discussion above (RNZ link) I (personally) think this civil disobedience is of interest to a small minority (just about all of them Green Party members?) and the lack of wider public interest was fully justified.
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watermelon
n. a communist masquerading as an environmental activist
http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/watermelon
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Does Tearoom’s/NZ have a “Red” movement? If not where did they go?
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gee jh..!..haven’t heard that ‘watermelon’ line before.
you are quite the ‘wit’..aren’t you..?
very dry/droll..
got any more ‘gems’..?
or is that it..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Where’s Wally…………………?
http://www.converge.org.nz/abc/Blenheim%20Protest.html
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Good of them all to come together at once for the annual photo shop (saves a lot of effort on behalf of the authorities).
http://www.converge.org.nz/abc/Waihopai%202.html
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OMG! an A-merrrr-i-can plane at Christhchurh Airrr Porrrt!
http://www.converge.org.nz/abc/Harewood.html
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Hypocrisy:
Tūhoe freedom fighter in Porirua District Court
01 May 2008
permalink
by AIMC
Ploughshares Penetrate Waihopai Base Deflate Satellite Dome
30 Apr 2008
permalink
by Ploughshares
http://www.indymedia.org.nz/
[Applies Toad, Keith Locke, Eredwen and assorted bottom rung lefto's]
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go hard!! kia kaha – 2008 – the year of direct action
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most people say communists arent environmentalists – so when did watermelons fit into the picture?
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I’m curious to know. Do activist groups carry out any kind of background checks on the people that join them?
Is there any concern within these groups that they could be infiltrated and played by terrorists that wish to use them as a cover for attacks on the military or government?
After all the best place to hide is in a crowd. And if you want to want to commit an act of terrorism, what better place to hide than an organisation that regularly penetrates sensitive places like Waihopia.
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“..And if you want to want to commit an act of terrorism, what better place to hide than an organisation that regularly penetrates sensitive places like Waihopia..”
that’s right..!..brainstrust..!..
hang out with the zaoui crowd..
the security forces would never ‘look’ at you there..eh..?
feckin’ idjit..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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The reason I said it would be a great place to hide is because being in a group that is regularly monitored because of the things they do (like the Zaoui crowd), makes it harder to interperet the signs of a “real” threat.
If you are in amongst the “Zauoi crowd” then the things that make you look like a terrorist are the same things that make you look like one of the “Zaoui crowd”
But the SIS can’t “look” at everyone in activist groups, so all you would have to do is stand back a little bit so that you can’t be seen for all the main players that are being looked at. There would be no need to risk detection if you want to recon the area either, because the activists do it for you. All the hard work would already be done and the only people between you and the information are the activists.
The activists haven’t got a clue who could be using them. The fact that there was a Solid Energy spy amongst the Happy Valley protesters for 7 months just proves that it can be done.
But then again I’m a “feckin’ idjit..!” so what would I know.
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Another reason activist groups would make good hiding places and launch points for terrorists, is that the activists have already developed the ability to plan attacks undetected.
All the infiltrations by activist groups at Waihopai are proof of that, so why would any intellegent terrorist organisation that wanted to carry out an attack on NZ soil not take advantage of it?
Or is that just feckin’ idjit talk too?
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DougT, I think what they would be most worried about, in light of things that’ve actually happened, is government or industry infiltration
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/spyfiles/24011res20060131.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/28/SURVEILLAN CE.TMP
And the pacifist group that was infiltrated by the US govt in that movie ‘Fahrenheit 9/11′.
And didn’t the happy valley protestors get infiltrated by Solid Energy?
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indeed….!..
and..
yes..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“Is there any concern within these groups that they could be infiltrated and played by terrorists that wish to use them as a cover for attacks on the military or government?”
No, there isn’t Doug.
It did happen once – the French government sent two of its agents to infiltrate the NZ branch of Greenpeace and they helped carry out the last terrorist attack in New Zealand (20-odd years ago).
Last week there was a French surveillance frigate sitting in Wellington harbour, so I guess the NZ government has forgiven that particular terrorist organisation. Friendly aren’t we?
The reality is that nobody in New Zealand really wants to carry out terrorist attacks and we aren’t regarded as a significant enemy by groups from overseas. Maybe if we keep on backing America’s wars we’ll eventually get to that point and you’ll get your much desired threat and security clampdown.
Given the level of security in NZ if any raving idiot did want to carry out an attack, there wouldn’t be anything to stop them.
“If you are in amongst the “Zauoi crowd? then the things that make you look like a terrorist are the same things that make you look like one of the “Zaoui crowd?”
What are the things that make you “look like a terrorist” then? Having a beard? Being religious? Expressing political views? Green Party membership?
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Governments use spies to get information.
Terrorists use spies to get information.
and Activists use spies to get information.
All 3 groups think they are doing the right thing for their cause.
Why are you so sure that your cause is better that anyone elses?
Both the terrorist groups and many of the activists seem to have a common enemy. Don’t you see why that might be a concern?
The fact that say you are not concerned about whether an activist group might be used by a terrorist, just makes you a willing pawn for both sides.
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“Both the terrorist groups and many of the activists seem to have a common enemy. ”
Who, Greenpeace?
“The fact that say you are not concerned about whether an activist group might be used by a terrorist, just makes you a willing pawn for both sides.”
I don’t go chasing chimeras, Doug. Have you checked you garage for Taliban fighters today? If not, does that make you a willing accomplice of the terrorists?
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“Who, Greenpeace?”
No. the US government.
“Have you checked you garage for Taliban fighters today?”
No I haven’t Sam, because I am not planning the next protest on government property. I would be of no value to any terrorist.
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Phil u,
I’m too stupid to understand why my comments are so wrong.
Could you please explaint to me why there is no logic in what I said?
Sam mentioned that French terrorists infiltrated Greenpeace, so why are things so different now?
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I was referring to car bombs, Doug. If you have an unchecked car you could be unwittingly enabling terrorism. It seems about as likely that terrorists would sneak into your garage as into an activist group.
“what better place to hide than an organisation that regularly penetrates sensitive places like Waihopia.”
There is no such organisation, is there?
Seriously though, why would terrorists want to infiltrate an activist group other than possibly to attack it (the last two terrorist acts in NZ, the Rainbow Warrior bombing and the Trades Hall bombing both targetted leftists)? To attract police attention? Can’t find Waihopai on the map and need advice? Need to borrow a pair of wire-cutters?
Is there the tiniest little shred of evidence that terrorists have infiltrated a protest group in the last 20 years? I’d say about as much as the evidence that they’ve infiltrated the Lions Club, or are working at Whitcoulls or playing second violin in the NZSO.
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Ok, look at it this way.
If you wanted to assinate George Bush (the CIA is definately reading this now), and you knew there was a group of protesters who regularly got close to him, and knew alot about Bush’s movements and the weaknesses of his own security, wouldn’t it be a better idea to infiltrate that group, which is more likely seen as a nusance that a real threat to Bush, and is more likely than not already being monitored as well (I’ll come back to that) than using your own reconisance, at the risk of being caught?
The matter of the group already being montored has the benefit of that monitoring being subject to the problem of familiarity causing little things to go unnoticed.
If you have ever had to watch something for ages, you start to see things move that aren’t moving, and more importantly, you sometimes don’t notice things that are moving.
I’m not really trying to say that activists want to be used by terrorists, but I think that with the evolving tactics of terrorism, it would be prudent of activists to at least think about how they might be dragged into the same kind of warfare that they are against.
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“If you wanted to assinate George Bush (the CIA is definately reading this now), and you knew there was a group of protesters who regularly got close to him, and knew alot about Bush’s movements and the weaknesses of his own security”
Is there such a group? Certainly isn’t in NZ, and if there was in the US, I imagine it would be crawling with FBI agents or whoever. Once again, if you offer any evidence that this has happened, you might have a point. Right now it’s kind of on the level of locking plumbing supplies in a vault for fear that some terrorist might make a pipe bomb.
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“..I’m too stupid to understand why my comments are so wrong.
Could you please explaint to me why there is no logic in what I said?..”
no point..
(see your first line..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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[from the Herald]
But Mr Cozens said yesterday the facility is operated solely by the Government Communications Security Bureau and is paid for by the taxpayer.
“It is entirely, totally, cosa nostra New Zealand. It is New Zealand’s mafia, if you like, it’s our thing. It’s got nothing to do with the Americans.”
He believed “peace movement” claims that the facility has a military function were “really stretching credulity a bit”.
“I am sure there will be some odd military things that go by it, but it’s not its primary purpose.”
Instead, Mr Cozens says the installation – and a sister facility at Tangimoana, near Palmerston North – monitors “anything that bounces off a satellite” in the South Pacific region.
Such targets include cellphone, email, fax and radio communications from foreign sources. The GCSB is forbidden, by law, to monitor or record domestic communications.
The information is then collated for the assistance of the “trade negotiators, politicians or diplomats” who represent New Zealand abroad.
“We are better prepared for what our bottom line would be, or what advantage we might have … because we have been listening in.”
There is limited monitoring of “bad people” in the region, such as Southeast Asian Islamic militant group Jemaah Islamiyah, he says.
Ultimately, all information is “pooled for mutual benefit” with similar material harvested by the US, Britain, Canada and Australia.
“These [pieces of information] are bargaining pieces …
“This is information that we have, that we have defined for our own purposes, and it’s no different to an old- fashioned game of you show me your hand, I’ll show you mine.”
Mr Cozens believes Wednesday’s attack will lead to a tightening of security at the base, but says the public are often the best form of security.
“The public are pretty well aware of what’s going on around the place. I think, in this instance, the perpetrators of this crime were fortunate not to be apprehended before they broke the perimeter.”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10507478 &pnum=0
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“Its fine for the activists to dream of their part in fighting Uncle Sam but their actions temporarily tore a tiny hole in the system that protects Kiwis and Aussies not only against terrorism but from organisations like the French DGSE. Waihopai is part of the worldwide sigint network just as your PC is part of the World Wide Web however Waihopai’s area of responsibility only covers New Zealand’s neigbourhood – South Pacific etc. Few/noone in that neighbourhood are oppressed by the US.
.
The activists will recall that the French external intelligence agency DGSE blow up Greenpeace’s Rainbow Warrior in Auckland Harbour in 1985. What they don’t know is the role of the UKUSA sigint network (popularly mislabeled “Echelon”) in nailing the French.
.
Detection, arrest, then conviction of the French DGSE agents was not only good Kiwi Police gumshoe work (partly PR). Sigint played a significant part in pressuring the French to confess and forcing the French Government to back down. Basically the French realised their Operation Satanic (to destroy the Rainbow Warrior) would have been exposed by collection methods that included intercepts by satellite, aircraft and land based sigint platforms.’
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/2008/04/damage-to-gcsb-dish-by-new -zealand.html
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What Locke and Co are afraid of (perhaps), is that all the little outbreaks of resistance to “”the system” (the fires of revolution) will be nipped in the bud….
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The example was just a hypotetical one. And yes if there was one in the US it would be shut down pretty fast I would expect.
There are groups that attack sensitive defence areas in New Zealand for the purpose of protesting against them. That’s what everyone has been discussing here. And there has been a case where terrorists have infiltrated and killed innocent people in New Zealand, Sam pointed out with the Rainbow Warrior bombing. Admitedly it was a totally different set of circumstances in that case, but it proves that it has happened here.
“Right now it’s kind of on the level of locking plumbing supplies in a vault for fear that some terrorist might make a pipe bomb.”
Making the pipe bomb is not the hard part, getting it to the target is the hard part.
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If the Greens want to support people who break the law because of what they believe in, I guess that’s their call.
Do they support all civil disobedience?
or just the causes that they believe in?
Would the Greens support civil disobedience against the Catholic Church as a protest against the child abuse that some priests have commited?
Would they support an attack on them if someone disagrees with a law that they helped pass?
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I think it civil disobedience definately is valid if a government is doing something wrong. it comes down to principles and which of these the govt is violating. You can assess principles, by doing an honest analysis, something Helens crowd is very good at smokescreening.
in the case of teh national drug policy for example, all underpinning principles are being perverted, and the silly public has no idea what soever what a crock is going on there. (and the silly greens???)
heres the principles getting the reverse treatment under Clarks administration (they could apply to any policy, but in this case they were specifically stated as underpinning the National dRug POlicy when it was introduced a decade ago):
*effectiveness, including cost-effectiveness
*equity
*harm reduction as well as ‘harm prvention’
*upholding individual rights where these do not impinge on others
*special attention under the treaty of waitangi, to ensure Maori get a fair deal (paraphrased, that one)
some of you may have noticed Jim Andeton and Annette King recently bleating on about the social cost of illicit drug use – one and a half billion or so per year – that is bullshit for starters, because the cost is actually attributable to PROHIBITION. Putting people in jail for life for ‘P’ and bustin Maori for pot, while alcohol dealers get to be rich c**ts, is plain hypocrisy if NZers could only realis they are being taken for fools over this appalling sort of doublestandard
(nice if youre a grifter on the recieving end of the 1.5 billion, not so good if your a med pot victim of the abuse – and there are still up to 20,000 convitions a year for the NON CRIME (pot) every year)
so i would dearly like to put an axe or two through annette king and Jim andertons electorate office windows. (the axes of evil -lol). Because these two especially are EVIL in my ethical beleif.
But i wont because i know the pigs will come straight after me. But if someone else would like to do it, our govt deserves much more for giving its blessing to the WAR ON DRUGS (instrumental in the USAs global imperalism, which is what that stupid big air sack was serving)
so if anyone else thinks that a bit of mild-axe-wielding violence would be a valid bit of civil disobedience (and trifilling compared with the compound violations and abuse of human dignity and freedom under ‘criminalisation’), please be my guest, tell the JUdge, weedeater said it was alright.
cheers
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we shouldnt be so precious about ‘non violent direct action’. Hitler wasnt defeated by waving olive branches. for every thing there is a season, a time for peace a time for war, and a time for expressing anger at unjust, corrupt powers… peace is a nice ideal, but sometimes you gotta swing the axe a little bit.
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However your not near convincing anyone that the Waihopai Spy base isn’t in our interest.
Most people are happy if it eaves drops Jemiah Islamia or picks up on a big money laundering scheme.
I for one have never felt too convinced that the “Peace Movement” was about “peace”, in fact scratch the surface and you’ll find sentiments such as yours weedeater.
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Stop the GODDAMMEND usa/CIA admin and institutionalised cronies interfering in everyone elses business (war on drugs) and it will pull the pin on global alienation and terrorism. we wont need to worry about jemiah islamia (or whatever his name is).
as for money laundering, organised crime, – well for Christs sake, what is at the root of that – anyone remember AL Capone????.
Illicit Drugs. is it really worth this failed, bullying hypocritical global regime and do ‘p’ enthusiasts really deserve the same sentence as murderers??, while alcohol pushers get stinking rich.
no wonder the muslums hate the West.
I am a peaceful person in general, in fact Jesus is my inspiration, and Krisna and buddha, and i belive in turning the other cheek to some extent. but even JC tipped ove the money launderers carts in the temple one day in a fit of anger.
and thats why id love to put an axe through Anderton’s …. window
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Maybe it’s not the terrorists you guys need to worry about infiltrating your protest groups, maybe the fanatics among your ranks are the ones that are the biggest threat to your cause.
If the Greens are going to encourage this sort of thing, they are going to have to accept that someone is bound to take things to the next level. Especially when they think they are doing God’s work.
Didn’t Bush say that God told him to invade Iraq?
And don’t the suicide bombers believe they are doing Alah’s bidding?
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Seems to be an issue of facts here about Waihopai
Eredwen says:
Some of the material that passes through Waihopai (that NZ does not even see, much less “vet?) could implicate Aotearoa New Zealand in War Crimes, or Crimes Against Humanity. I for one do not want this for the victims, nor for my country, (and definitely not for my descendants to have to live with.)
Peter Cousins from the Center for Strategic Studies at Victoria University says it is “wholly owned and operated property of NZ Govt. There are no foreigners based here. Scare mongers say it goes to Washington DC” If we have material we will trade it with Washington DC [I suppose that would rankle the Greens]. The military use more covert means.
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bush just signed a bill to have a national DNA database for all new born infants in the states,how long before we (Leading the charge in all things) will follow suit or am i behind the times and we already have it in place?
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http://infowars.net/articles/may2008/020507DNA.htm
i think this is the one?
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Here’s another claim:
“First of all let me correct some people with the facts, this base titled as Waihopai is not funded by nor owned by NZ or its citizens, it’s U.S government Property, read the signs outside it and the book ‘Secret Power’ by Nicky Hager.”
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“If the people who run things don’t allow us democratic control over them, we have a right to civil disobedience.”
In this country democratic control means exercising your two votes once every three years, and making submissions. Ergo New Zealanders don’t have a right to civil disobedience.
But if you did then surely the most effective form of civil disobedience would be to infiltrate the government’s focus groups so that they will always deliver the messages you want government to get and lead to the actions you want the government to take.
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The Waihopai Spybase is democratic because, (I would think) most people would agree with what goes on and disagree with Green Party policy.
Policies such as these are the low raters hampering the BIG ecological issues, relating to the approaching perfect storm: powerdown, population, sustainability and values (community).
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Amon Says:
May 3rd, 2008 at 2:12 pm
bush just signed a bill to have a national DNA database for all new born infants in the states,how long before we (Leading the charge in all things) will follow suit or am i behind the times and we already have it in place?
If we do not have it in place we should, all Kiwi’s and those who enter NZ should have their DNA recorded.
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jh – its no use having democracy if the voters are dumb-arses or ruled by fear and ignorance and MANUFACTURED CONSENT- backing policies completely idiotic or counterproductive -like stupid spybases, like stupid ‘tough on crime’ mentality (sensible idiot trust), like the war in iraq, like the war on drugs (actually on Humans, mainly black or brown).
no doubt a majority of those canvassed supported Apartheid in south africa, and nazi germany likewise, (just dont ask any of the oppressed people if they have an opinion.)
thats why it comes down to principles (like equity, cost-effectiveness, upholding of individual rights where not impinging on others) in resolving the rights and wrong of anything.
othewise its actually democrisy…
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Well said jh,
I don’t know why the Greens are so caught up in things that have nothing to do with environmental issues.
If they are so bent on human rights, why are they supporting the minority groups that have little concern for the values of the majority?
Democracy is s’posed to be the fairest way to run a country, so why is it that the Greens seem to want to dismantle it by pusing the values of the minority, and encouraging people to break the laws that were made by a government selected by the majority of New Zealanders?
I’m glad that I have been able to see this side of the Green party, because I was very close to voting for them in the next election.
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So DougT if the majority of New Zealander’s decided that DougT should be placed in prison for the rest of his life, you would of course support them
since after all we are only practising democracy the fairest way to run a country.
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Well if I was breaking the law in some way I would probably have to accept that wouldn’t I turnip.
I’m not sure if there is a specific law to put me in jail so I’m not really concerned about that, and I’m not sure why the majority of Nzers would want to put me in jail either.
Can you think of any reason I might be a risk to this country or the people in it?
I’ve lived with stricter rules that what the every day person has to live with, and I’ve even been punished for things as trivial as not polishing my boots when I was a soldier, but I had accepted those rules when I signed up.
There are plenty of laws that I don’t agree with, but I just have to live with it, it’s a matter of having to take the good with the bad.
You may think you have the right to do what you want, but there are certain boundaries that need to be set in any society (unless you want anarchy). This country has decided that a freely elected government is the best way to set those boundaries.
You have the right to protest turnip, and if that doesn’t work you even have the right to become the Prime Minister as Helen Clark did.
You think you have no rights at all, but you have exactly the same rights that I have. If you don’t like the rights you have, you can always leave.
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“we shouldnt be so precious about ‘non violent direct action’. Hitler wasnt defeated by waving olive branches. ”
NVDA isn’t about waving olive branches. However, if activists had blocked exports to Germany when they were rearming and if Russia and the western democracies hadn’t been so keen to support Hitler in the early days of his rule, maybe the extreme violence that it took to defeat him wouldn’t have been necessary.
“Can you think of any reason I might be a risk to this country or the people in it?”
Don’t know, as you seem reluctant to give your name when you make statements, so maybe you’ve got something to hide? : )
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So what would be best for NZ then?
Democracy?
Dictatorship?
or
Anarchy?
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Why is my name so important to you Sam?
Are you concerned that I am some kind of threat to you?
Assuming you are the same Sam Buchanan that was arrested in Genoa 2001 during the G8 summit protests, maybe you could understand why I wouldn’t give my name to you.
“All of the protestors have been simultaneously charged with four charges including unlawful association, possession of a weapon, obstructing police and attempted murder. It is believed that the attempted murder charge is in relation to the death of protester Carlo Giuliana.”
My appologies if I have mistaken you for one of the nut jobs I was talking about earlier.
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it’s ok..!..relax everybody..!
we can just ignore doug t…
he’s an army-head..!
(a former military man..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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good point sam. always try peaceful means first. but what can you do when even the green party wont advocate for the oppressed cannabis folk of NZ, and extortioned taxpayer, paying for more and more and more prisons.
(crime growth industry =secret Labour party agenda)
incidently to jail all half million kiwi weed people will require another 1000 prisons. bad news for the NZ taxpayer but could be great for economic growth….and im getting more and more in favour of putting P somewhere safer than class A too – how about class D or medicalised?
meanwhile my post from this afternoon about he difference between democracy and democrisy (ie unprincipled/ill informed/ scaremongered majority rule) is not there.
what are you doing with my posts frogs? I am getting a bit annoyed about this. some of my posts go straight up on frogblog, some appear the next day and some never at all (that i know of).
does anyone else have this problem, or is frog just picking on me
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Doug T
I suspect that you have chosen the wrong forum in which to “cast your pearls”.
Do I detect a heavy American influence upon your way of thinking, and the way in which you write?
Please don’t assume that Kiwis know little of the USA.
One example: My brother and family (all Greens) are American citizens. As a serviceman during the Vietnam War, he worked as a surgeon in a (Kiwi) field hospital for civilians in Vietnam. At the time he decided that “we were on the wrong side”. (“History” has proved him right.)
There are many American citizens (including currently serving service men and women) who have reached similar conclusions about the current “wars”.
Why, do you think, did the USA attack and then invade Afghanistan, and then Iraq (and, unless stopped, will invade Iran ?)
The growing number of Greens in the USA, seem to think very much like their Kiwi counterparts. With a few changes to the USA’s seriously outdated voting systems, who knows what might be possible?
eredwen
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Why do we just have to live with it Doug T? I know my rights and the rights of others. I will never just accept something because some other ‘person’ (governments are only made up of people – not necessarily more capable or intelligent than I – and democracy is not flawless, it needs to be kept in check) dictated to me that I must. I’d rather find out for myself whether it is actually just.
Spy bases in this country are a waste of money and violate the right to privacy. As Sam said, the activists were welcome to slash my share…
The best way to measure whether the government is acting rightfully in my opinion is whether it is in line with the universal declaration of human rights – you know those things called rights… laid out in international law – for us all to enjoy, the rights that our grandfathers and grandmothers fought hard for. Why would we accept anything less that those rights to be respected for ourselves and for others?
I agree with non-violent direct action when governments or companies violate international law, particularly human rights law.
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It looks like you guys have made alot of assumptions about what I was talking about.
Personally I don’t agree with Bush’s Iraq war, and I even pointed out that the CIA had also disagreed to the reasons for starting it. I have never believed that the war in Iraq was justified, and you won’t find any comments of mine saying that I did think it was.
Go ahead guys. Protest. You have the right to do it in this country.
But if someone does decide to take it too far, it’s not going to look good for your cause. It just makes people angry at you, like you are angry at me for exercising my right to disagree with you.
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A democracy can be a very evil form of government since it is simply the tyranny of the majority, so in order to have a free country we need to accept protest against laws that violate our self-evident rights. Even more so when we live in a country like New Zealand that has a very poor implimentation on human rights, we don’t even have a true Bill of Rights.
Your arguments DougT that if you disagree with the law you should become the government is absurd, how does a minority become the government under a democracy (tyranny of the mob).
It is because of the reason above that a real nation should and needs to have a constitution to protect the minority from the majority.
Since our spy bases along with the GCSB are all closed and not open how do we the people know how our tax dollars are being spent. A society which values liberty simply can’t have any parts of its government closed from the public. Only the abilitiy of the people to scrutinise government will lead to a free society.
Here is a question for people which of these 2 forms of society would you live under, which is more free?
1) Live under a democracy without an enshrined constitution that protects the citizens rights and limits the powers of government.
2) Live under a dictatorship but with an enshrined constitution that protects the citizens rights and limits the powers of government.
It should be clear from above that democracy does not equal freedom.
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So you must be against people Like Zaoi then.
He fought the government of Algeria because they were afraid he would win the election (which ment that they were worried that the majority agreed with him).
So if you agree with Zaoi, you aree with majority rule.
And if you had it your way, would you support any other minority groups that wanted to overthrow your government?
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Actually, I don’t really care about your name, Doug, I was just making the point that I can’t really answer your question:
“Can you think of any reason I might be a risk to this country or the people in it?”
…if I don’t know who you are. That’s reasonable isn’t it?
“Assuming you are the same Sam Buchanan that was arrested in Genoa 2001 during the G8 summit protests, maybe you could understand why I wouldn’t give my name to you.
“All of the protestors have been simultaneously charged with four charges including unlawful association, possession of a weapon, obstructing police and attempted murder. It is believed that the attempted murder charge is in relation to the death of protester Carlo Giuliana.?”
Yes that’s me, but hang on – haven’t you been arguing for the rule of law all along? And since the judge in this case said there was no evidence, that the arrests were illegal and threw out all the charges after a ten-minute hearing, why does this have any bearing on revealing your name to me?
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“…if I don’t know who you are. That’s reasonable isn’t it?”
That is one of the reasons governments spy on each other, Its also why protest groups are spied on. If you can find out information on someone then you know who you are dealing with, and you don’t need to make decisions based on assumptions, and you can decide whether they are a threat or not. That’s reasonable isn’t it?
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Not that we’re anti American
I don’t mind if they thwart a terrorist, catch people laundering money or get an angle on what our trading partenors are up to. I think we should leave it to Matt Simmons, Richard Hienberg Senator Bartlett (Republican) and a myriad of other people to influence the course of the American Government. Anyone read Whiskey and Gun Powder,or, Daily Reckoning?
Seems to be an issue of facts here about Waihopai
Eredwen says:
Some of the material that passes through Waihopai (that NZ does not even see, much less “vet?) could implicate Aotearoa New Zealand in War Crimes, or Crimes Against Humanity. I for one do not want this for the victims, nor for my country, (and definitely not for my descendants to have to live with.)
Peter Cousins from the Center for Strategic Studies at Victoria University says it is “wholly owned and operated property of NZ Govt. There are no foreigners based here. Scare mongers say it goes to Washington DC? If we have material we will trade it with Washington DC . The military use more covert means.
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The reason I brought up the G8 protest was because that is a classic example of what I was talking about when protests are hijacked by violent extreemists.
The protesters said
“We want to protest against this and show the alternatives.”
And this was the alternative that the world saw
“Masked protesters have broken up paving stones to use as projectiles and overturned and torched several vehicles, spreading a pall of black smoke over the area.”
Can you not see why there is little support for your causes when people like myself see this sort of thing?
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Doug T. I get the feeling that even if someone who might be arrested for something yet is later released based on a wrong conviction would still be persecuted by you as having committed that crime. Might I ask why?
Guilt by association enough for you eh? Just another David Hicks. Hold him in a solitary confinement cell the size of a small toilet for five years and then send him home to serve more – who care whether he’s innocent or not! Gosh, wtf does that matter!
—–
Ahmed Zaoui is a free man, no thanks to the NZ government who in a disgusting display of their own ignorance had him imprisoned without fair trial or charge for more years than I could ever imagine. Mr. Zaoui is not guilty of anything other than coming from a country with a corrupt government that spread rumors about him – a democratically elected MP. Subsequently a few European governments in a ‘war on terror’ mindset took those rumors as truth (despite their dubious source), which resulted in his fleeing to New Zealand. There seems to a number of people who just don’t seem to get the guy is not guilty of anything.
Being a democratically elected MP, overthrown and then convicted as a “terrorist” in absentia by the terrorist government who overthrew you is a f*ing joke. Then to be convicted by two European governments of terrorism on that basis, again without being there to defend yourself – is equally deplorable. Then again to be held and imprisoned in NZ (a supposed human rights defender of countries – another f*ing deplorable joke) for five years – well, I personally would never recover from my disgrace in the human race. The guy, like those released from Guantanamo Bay this weekend – deserve a f*ing medal!
I am sure Mr. Zaoui wouldn’t approve of the swearing, but I am so over it.
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“If you can find out information on someone then you know who you are dealing with, and you don’t need to make decisions based on assumptions, and you can decide whether they are a threat or not. That’s reasonable isn’t it?”
Trouble is, Doug, we are dealing with people (i.e. the NZ and US governments who can’t be trusted with information. As you pointed out, the US government misused info on Iraq for its own political ends.
It’s a bit like the info on Genoa you posted aboput me. Either deliberately or from not having done your homework, you presented information that in isolation it makes me look like a violent nut, if you know the full story, things look very different. We have every reason to suppose that our government treats info the same way – take Zaoui, whatever you think of him, the government’s line “we have secret information, but we aren’t going to tell anyone what it is” is a line that can’t be accepted.
Do you really think Helen Clark can be trusted to tell us what Waihopai has come up with without putting her own spin on it?
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Sam
Waihopai spy base might even find out something that would save the life of thousands on innocent civilians, it might help prevent another 9/11.
Why are you so intent on protecting the rights of terrorists?
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Yes I did deliberately leave out the fact that the charges were dropped Sam. I did it for the same reason that you leave out certain information also.
You (like some of your counterparts) claim that the Waihopia base is involved in some way in the war in Iraq, because it is a government operation, and it’s goings on are kept secret. But there is no real evidence that you can base your claim on. Just speculation and hear say.
You conveniently leave that little bit of information out, because if you included it, it would show the biggest hole in your theory.
Tell me Sam, who was it that wrote these little gems?
“And calling wars ‘peace-keeping’ doesn’t make them not wars.”
“…the current armed forces, who actively recruit people to go and fight overseas…”
“I’ve praised the NZDF for its mine-clearing and UXO work on several occasions. The air force does some search and rescue at times and fisheries protection, which is no bad thing, though it’s coastguard work rather than military work. I don’t actually think the NZDF (or the army at least, which is the branch I’ve had most contact with) is that bad a bunch.”
“But there’s an awful lot not being said”
Well Sam are you bothered when you sh*t on the same people you seem to praise? And are you bothered that there is an awful lot not being said by you too?
I read an interesting account from a guy who was at the Gonoa protest and the parts quoted here may give some insight as to why the police overreacted. I’m not saying the police were right, but it does let you see the situation from a different angle, and makes you realise that the unprovoked attack wasn’t entirely unprovoked
Those aren’t my words Sam, they are from a guy who was at the sumit to call for cancellation of third world debt.
The judge in your case in Genoa threw out the charges because there was no evidence, and I would expect that he even knew about what had happened the day before too.
You and your Ploughshares buddies have no evidence in your quest to have Waihopai closed, and yet for some reason you persist in your unfounded claims that it is used for evil purposes.
There are a few similarities between the unfounded protests against the Waihopai base, and the unprovoked attack on the protesters at Genoa.
There was unrest the previous day in Genoa, which maybe made the police speculate that there could be worse trouble the next day.
Although no real evidence can prove it.
The Waihopai Base is used to gather information which may be sensitive to our security, hence the information is kept secret from the general public. There is a war on the other side of the planet, so you speculate that maybe Waihopia has something to do with it.
Although no real evidence can prove it.
The big difference is that the charges against you were dropped when it was discovered that the evidence to arrest you was unfounded.
Of course it doesn’t mean that you weren’t planning something.
Or would that just be unfounded speculation too?
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“Yes I did deliberately leave out the fact that the charges were dropped Sam. ”
What exactly is that reason? I find your argument difficult to follow.
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Ok lets put it this way Sam.
As you said before,
“It’s a bit like the info on Genoa you posted aboput me. Either deliberately or from not having done your homework, you presented information that in isolation it makes me look like a violent nut,”
but most importantly you said,
“… if you know the full story, things look very different.”
And the thing that that you and your anti Waihopai mates have been leaving out “Either deliberately or from not having done your homework”
is that your claims of Waihopai being used for evil are based on speculation and hearsay.
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Contrary to what you say, I’ve never claimed Waihopai was involved in the war in Iraq. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a link, but I know of no hard evidence that it is so involved.
“Well Sam are you bothered when you sh*t on the same people you seem to praise? ”
No. Things aren’t back and white. Are institutions that do something useful at times beyond criticism at others? This isn’t about abusing particular people, it’s about the role institutions play, and those institutions do good work at times and highly dubious work at others.
In the case of Waihopai, I do not believe the government can be trusted with information on its own, and other, citizens. I am consider it likely that it will use information to smear its opponents and undermine dissent. It might, for example, by being highly selective in the information it releases, misrepresent people it disagrees with and thus undermine their views. Rather like you’ve just done.
“Yes I did deliberately leave out the fact that the charges were dropped Sam. I did it for the same reason that you leave out certain information also.”
If you want to indulge deceitful ad hominum attacks from a position of anonymity, please do it elsewhere. Frankly, if you are admitting deliberately trying to smear me with information you knew to be inaccurate, I don’t think I want to have discussions with you.
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You obviously have your reasons for giving up your right to remain anonomous. Just as I have resons to keep my anonymity. But if you decide to give up that right, you have to realise that whatever you say and do may be used against you in public arguements. I let people know that I was an ex military man despite knowing that it would be used against me. Funny that nobody asked what Corps I was in though. Or was there an assumption that all soldiers are trained to kill (now theres a hint)?
I’d say that you could be right in your assumption that Waihopia does some work that might be seen as inappropriate, but just because someone drives a Ferrari doesn’t mean they automaticly drive over the speed limit.
Surely even an anarchist would agree that you can’t just go accusing people of something based on an assumption, and the fact that they “might” be up to no good.
If you were to use the CIA evidence that the Bush administration dismissed before attacking Iraq I would fully support you on that one though. Dispite what some readers here might think, I was totally against the invasion of Iraq. And at least with that arguement, the evidence has already been put on the table by the CIA.
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