Talking Tibet in Cape Town
I’m in Cape Town for the 118th Inter parliamentary Union meeting. It’s been written off as a junket by the NZ media so I thought I’d let people see for themselves.
There’s some serious politicking over Zimbabwe. The New Zealand delegation is playing an instrumental role in ensuring that the IPU discusses it. I’ll write about that after this afternoon’s session, as we are expecting an announcement that should resolve some problems.
In the meantime, I’ve been at the debate to discuss the draft report of the 1st standing committee of the IPU on Human Rights and International Security. From my speech:
Governments say “we don’t deal with terroristsâ€? while negotiating with states that invade other countries, commit acts resembling genocide, and routinely use torture to repress dissent.
In this context, my own government has just signed a trade agreement with the PRC, even as Lhasa erupts in violence and international media is excluded. We have no way of knowing if arrested people are being tortured as we speak, because there is no independent source of information. Some NZ Parliamentarians opposed that agreement, on human rights grounds among other things.
After finishing I was approached by Liu Deyu of the Foreign Affairs Bureau of the National People’s Congress, People’s Republic of China, asking for my name and a copy of my speech. The Chinese delegation is now seeking to have my comments struck from the record.
April 15th, 2008 at 6:40 am
Kia Ora, Nandor,
Tautoko a koe, kia kaha i teenei take,
arohanui ki a koe,
na keri
April 15th, 2008 at 8:13 am
Good on you for speaking up on this issue.
April 15th, 2008 at 8:34 am
Thank you for speaking out. That is totally unacceptable and despicable behavior. Yet so typical of the Chinese minions. Please keep us posted…
April 15th, 2008 at 8:42 am
That is so spooky…good on you Nandor.
April 15th, 2008 at 8:58 am
cool..
i’ve linked..
http://whoar.co.nz/2008/the-chinese-delegation-is-now-seeking-to-have- my-comments-struck-from-the-record/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
April 15th, 2008 at 9:42 am
Go figure they’re trying to shut you up. China seems to think if they scramble fast enough they can suppress dissent. It won’t happen.
April 15th, 2008 at 9:50 am
I was at a NZ trade and enterprise event in New York a while back for NZ business in the US. Everyone was looking forward to the signing of the NZ free trade deal with China everybody was talking about the economic benefit but nobody was talking about the ethical or moral costs. Well at least the greens still have integrity and honor, opposing this free trade deal is another reason to vote green.
BTW I was a wimp at this NZ trade and enterprise event as i didn;t have the guts to question the nz bottled water company that was making bottled water in NZ and then shipping it to the US, in 100 years time humans are going to look back on this period in history and think we were the dumbest human beings to have ever lived.
Keep up the good work Nandor.
April 15th, 2008 at 9:59 am
unbelievable ey? BTW fresh evidence shows (not the pic of the
Chinese Police carrying Tibetan Monk robes - more than that) that the violence was definitely the local Chinese dressed in Tibetan Chupa’s (as they do to make more sales) and Monks robes. the “monks” spoke no Tibetan, their hair was longer than the allowed shaved length, and these Chinese people pretending to be Tibetan for the camera had special things around their neck so they wouldn’t be shot. So all the “violent Tibetans” Chinese people are currently being encouraged to hate, is just another propoganda exercise and excuse to kill again. We have to find a way to stop this! back home the Chinese spies do not leave the ex Chinese now NZ citizens in peace either - so this initimidation even in other countries is a bit of a sign as to what they are plotting next. We don’t need the materialism!!
April 15th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
They took a three minute right of reply and gave an ‘explanation’ of what happened in Tibet, including a comment of how restrained they were basically because they didn’t shoot people in the street. I guess that is an improvement!
Interesting comments though Angela, thanks.
April 15th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
“China’s ancient culture has many admirable aspects. But if we dislike its forcible enrichment of Tibet’s ancient culture, we are entitled to feel equally uneasy about the growing presence of a foreign culture here. Immigration can be useful and a little diversity charming, but large numbers of unabsorbed immigrants of any culture are a recipe for division and disaster.
About one-quarter of the population of New Zealanders resident here were born overseas. That is dangerous. Some in the Chinese community are already lobbying against support for Tibet. Once a beach-head immigrant population is established, their votes, as well as our own economic addictions, will ensure further immigration. Then it will be too late.
China is a corrupt, polluted, tyrannical ant-heap. It has overwhelmed Tibet, and I fear what may happen here. Long live the Dalai Lama.”
http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/4480043a22215.html
April 15th, 2008 at 9:51 pm
jh, I agree with you, but then I don’t. Your analysis of the politics o China/Tibet is spot-on. But then you get into an anti-Chinese immigrations argument that is based on stereotypes.
Sure, if we have Chinese immigrants coming here, there will be some who support the Chinese Government. But I suspect the vast majority will come here for what they see as a better life because the Chinese Government has failed them.
Skills and labour market shortages (apart from our international obligations to refugees) should be the criteria for immigration - not ethnicity.
April 15th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
Yes being clear of anti-Chinese sterotypes is very important. I am a bit bothered by people not realising, this is not Anti-China - this is trying to be diplomatic but straight up, without compromising anyones universal human rights or closing doors. Being nice will not work but being harsh will be worse. There is more power in straight up truth. The number imprisoned so far across Tibet has reached 4000. The Army are in full force everywhere, a friend is confined to the school they teach in, along with the other teachers, far far away from Lhasa .Yes, thankfully it did seem to be an improvement on eg Tiannamen Square, but they are being strategic in when to do certain things. Unfortunately, Nandor, the sad fact is they DID and ARE shooting people - innocent people well away from riots (eg the solitary 14th March is the only “riot” day yet the term is still being used regularly as an excuse to bring in the tanks). Without the media to report, how will this ever be proven? Old people in Lhasa opening their doors in an effort to go and find food and water after being locked in for days. Shot dead on their doorstep. Hand Grenade killing another 6. Witnessed. To date I have not one safe way or organisation to pass on the information on to, without it leading to further problems once people are named. Most are not even risking to phone or write to Tibet anymore. And this is just one witness! I have a far too large pile of info about whats up. The majority of main Monasteries are in lockdown without food and water, and there have been deaths already from this - as that started from March 10th. Days before the “riots”. What to do? Thank you for mentioning Tibet and facing the usual process that follows.
April 16th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Toad Say’s
Skills and labour market shortages (apart from our international obligations to refugees) should be the criteria for immigration - not ethnicity.
…………………
[That was from David Rounds column
http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/4480043a22215.html
Population increase 25% between 1990 and 2005 (?)…. skill shortages?
I don’t think we should import over population and i think we should look at the values and attidues of those who come here eg people who have 10 children and Islamic fundamentalists.
Essentially your saying one shouldn’t be judgmental: culture, background, religion shouldn’t be considered. Yours is is a pc position: ….. to be unsure is racist.
Maybe populism isn’t such a bad thing at times as political parties are stymied by personal agenda; in this way NZ First is greener than the Green Party (and will take a few votes?).
April 16th, 2008 at 7:10 am
Green Party priorities:
Winston Peters is at it again. His immigration policy, released yesterday, makes for depressing reading for anyone who believes in an open-minded, open-armed, and compassionate New Zealand. In his speech launching the policy, he said
http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2005/05/28/ejecting-the-squinty-ey ed/
I’m more of a lifestyle protectionist (allthough it is allready too late for that)
.
April 16th, 2008 at 7:59 am
angela..i run an on-line news-service/news-site..
http://whoar.co.nz/
i have already featured these two comments from you..
and would be happy to disseminate any more information/insights into what is actually happening in tibet..
and i can provide a guarantee not to publish names/information that could identify/put in danger any of your informants..
my contact details are available on whoar..
phillip
(phil(whoar.co.nz)
April 16th, 2008 at 8:10 am
jh said: I don’t think we should import over population…
I agree with you wholeheartedly on that bit jh. But at the moment, the ecological footprint of New Zealand’s population is below the population carrying capacity of its land. It is arguable how much below, but most estimates are between 1.5 and 2 million.
And with a birth rate that is below replacement level, we are not in any immediate danger of becoming overpopulated. Sure, we need to have some spare carrying capacity to allow for the possibility of climate change refugees should ecological disaster consequent on climate change befall Australia and/or South Pacific island nations. But I see no harm in reasonable levels of immigration to address skill shortages.
BTW, jh, why do you specifically mention “Islamic” fundamentalists. I would have thought our immigration policy should be geared to ensuring minimal immigration of all fundamentalists, including Christian ones. The essence of fundamentalism is that it strives to remove from society the tolerance and diversity that I value.
April 16th, 2008 at 9:17 am
How many people can you get in a mini? [Ans: 21]
“BTW, jh, why do you specifically mention “Islamicâ€? fundamentalists.”
I imagine you and like thinkers would see Islamic fundamentalism mainly in the light of the geopolitics of the Middle East. I tend to believe that Islam is one of the worlds worst religions in that it really does say what apologists say it has a significant number of passages which can be interpreted as exhorting violence.
We have had plenty of examples of guttural lava erupting from the bearded fuzziwuzzies (extremists).
April 16th, 2008 at 9:19 am
How many people can you get in a mini? [Ans: 21]
“BTW, jh, why do you specifically mention “Islamic� fundamentalists.�
I imagine you and like thinkers would see Islamic fundamentalism mainly in the light of the geopolitics of the Middle East. I tend to believe that Islam is one of the worlds worst religions in that it has a significant number of passages which can be interpreted as exhorting violence.
We have had plenty of examples of guttural lava erupting from the bearded fuzziwuzzies (extremists).
April 16th, 2008 at 9:24 am
The frickin bible says in exodus Exodus 35:2 “whoever does any work on it [the sabbath] shall be put to death.” I just don’t see the point in confining debate to any one religion, as if there’s a uniform code of conduct that everyone follows to a T. So, Tibet
April 16th, 2008 at 10:09 am
It is a matter of how public policies are implemented: seeing through (official) rose coloured spectacles and ignoring negative side affects.
April 16th, 2008 at 10:37 am
jh said: … Islam is one of the worlds worst religions in that it has a significant number of passages which can be interpreted as exhorting violence.
jh, I don’t think Islam is unique as a religion in this. There are many references exhorting violence in the Bible. These are from Leviticus alone:
April 16th, 2008 at 10:43 am
I think Nandor is going to be very bemused to see what this thread has turned into…hopefully he will keep up with updates anyway…
April 16th, 2008 at 11:35 am
The new Testament has moderated the Old Testament and there has been a change in cultural interpretation.
Would you do an analysis of the relative density (prominence?) of statements exhorting violence Toad. That’s the nub of the issue.
April 16th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Jesus said: “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” etc.
V’s “…. get stuck in”… That’s the difference. Much more recent too remember.
April 16th, 2008 at 11:45 am
Regards Nandor in Tibet