20 days to have your say on preferential trade with China
You would probably expect me to be jumping up and down about these poll figures:
Asked if they supported New Zealand signing a free trade agreement with China, 44.7 per cent of those questioned in the DigiPoll survey said they did. Just about a third - 32.4 per cent - said no, while 22.9 per cent said they did not know.
Luckily for the government, MPs are not nearly so evenly spread across the spectrum of opinions.
But I think all you can take from that poll result, given no one has seen the agreement or knows what it might do, is that a large section of New Zealanders sit somewhere on the spectrum between ambivalent, distrustful and downright appalled by the generic concept of preferential trade agreements based on their past experience of them. Oh, and there is also a large group of people who are putting the economic and social effects of preferential trade agreements to one side and making a moral judgement similar to this one by Raybon Kan:
Much the way I don’t think the North Korean government should run North Korea, I believe China shouldn’t run Tibet. Also, I don’t think the Chinese government should run Guangzhou or Beijing or Tiananmen Square. Maybe I’m just hung up on that whole voting thing…
And we know deep down why we’re being quiet. For the free trade agreement. With a country that isn’t free. For the moola.
Good grief. We close shops at Easter and prosecute the shops that open for the sake of some execution 2000 years ago. Yet, while people are being executed right now, we shut up about it because we want to open shop with China.
These are all valid emotional responses to our past experiences of trade agreements, and selective human rights stances. The real test will be over the next weeks, when we get to see when we read the text if the trade agreement is truly free and fair, or if it is about favouring large exporters in both New Zealand and China with poor environmental and labour rights records.
It appears that just 20 working days will be allowed for the public to have their say, despite the China FTA being New Zealand’s biggest and most significant bilateral deal since closer economic relations with Australia 25 years ago.
March 31st, 2008 at 11:17 am
I suspect that the poll figures reflect largely the disinterest of a public which is in general uninformed. Many of those of us who feel strongly about Tibet, Darfur, womens’ rights, the Falun Gong, Taiwan, the economic effect on NZ of trade with China, and much else - are totally frustrated. Our local editors may possibly publish a few of our letters, we can approach our MP, but that is all. The potential for us to inform the smaller communities we live in, and thereby double these poll percentages, are blocked by a total lack of communication on the part of the leaders of the organisations which represent each of these issues. Appeals for feedback, badges, rubber stamps (to use on envelopes), T-shirts, advice on setting up a group, are ignored. If this had happened during say the anti-apartheid era, nothing whatever would have been achieved. Where are the stickers for use in supermarkets on Chinese goods? People appear in town centres distributing literature, you give them your contact data, tell them you are keen to help, and never hear back. Where can one buy a Tibetan flag? Or a Falun Gong T-shirt? After trying intensively for a year, I silk-screened my own. We have a country in which protest against injustice is both possible and safe; has no-one any guts?
March 31st, 2008 at 11:23 am
Frog, the last link in your post is broken.
March 31st, 2008 at 11:36 am
Link fixed hopefully - if not look on Stuff for the Dom Post story - ‘MPs to vote for deal on China’, 31/03/08 by Emily Watt and Tracy Watkins
March 31st, 2008 at 11:40 am
I’m generally in favour of free trade, but this one is beginning to bother me. For one reason:
Why so secret?
March 31st, 2008 at 12:14 pm
Well, generally trade deals aren’t made completely public until about when they’re signed anyway, so this is just a change of degree and not necessarily a change of policy.
As for why so secret- the government wants the issue to go away. For its long-term planning, it is important that we make some inroads with China, which at some point will catch up to and then replace the USA as an economic superpower.
Personally, I’d rather be remembered as a country that had a conscience, and at least symbolically delay the deal. I imagine in the long run it’ll need to be signed, but the terms are important, and so is the timing. It would be fitting if we could ask the chinese government to wait on the signing until they provide full media access to tibet, for instance.
Frog- didn’t Jeanette try to table a poll in parliament that dealt with people’s stance on the FTA with regard to the human rights abuses that showed that more people didn’t want it?
March 31st, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Frog - can I refer you to these great words from Rick Barker (on the appointment of David McGee to be an Omudsman):
If it’s that big a deal to you, then find yourself into a majority on the Select Committee, and stare them down.
http://www.parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/Debates/2/5/e/48HansD_200710 11_00000859-Appointments-Ombudsman.htm
March 31st, 2008 at 1:46 pm
While I abhor the violence in Tibet and think that free trade agreements which countries who perpetrate such cruelty should not be made unless there is an improvement in the way they treat the Tibetans, I wonder why it is that when China commits atrocities we’re willing to participate in a discussion about it, but if the United States are committing worse atrocities in which New Zealand is complicit whether it commits acts of violence would not, to be part of an aggressive operation makes one complicit. If you drive the getaway car assisting a bank robber is still part of the crime, so if New Zealand troops as part of the invasion of Afghanistan is still involved after seven years knowing full well that atrocities have been committed by United States and NATO soldiers then New Zealand has lost its high ground as far as morals with regards to human rights is concerned.
The United States has more prisoners in its prisons per capita than China, they rendition Hundreds If Not Thousands of mainly men from Arab descent to black holes, secret prisons, Guantánamo bay. They are illegally jailed without court cases, legal representation, in solitary confinement, without contact with their family for years and years.
Yet this morning I read in the newspaper had proud announcement of a New Zealand Company that has one title of preferred supplier of radio installations to Government contractors.
This will earn the company some $20,000,000,- in the next three years.
I wonder if these radio installations will be used by the army or in case of martial law, and if so should we not be extremely critical of the company that made the deal with America.
If we want to reserve the right to judgement of other countries policies with regards to human rights we should do so with all countries and not just the ones that we don’t like. Most importantly we should be above reproach.
The United States has shown itself to be as unreliable and as murderous if not far worse in the last seven years than China. It has engaged in illegal wars of aggression against Afghanistan and Iraq. It has been proven that the United States government was less than candid in his motivation to go to war with Iraq and the fact that troops are still fighting in Afghanistan means that we, as well as the United States have lost the high ground with regards to protecting human rights.
While I don’t think you should have free trade agreements with countries that kill, engage in what wars of aggression, and generally violate basic human rights, let’s stick a hand in our own bosom and ask our selves truly once and for all why we still have troops in Afghanistan knowing what we know now about America’s behaviour, it’s as we should go to the conclusion that the war was wrong and we extricate ourselves from the club of murderous thugs they have taken possession of both Afghanistan and Iraq and then perhaps we may criticise countries were less than perfect record on human rights.
March 31st, 2008 at 1:56 pm
John Barleycorn, you may be interested in this media release:
March 31st, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Edge, I’m not sure what point you are trying to make other than the one I was already highlighting which is that the government already seems to have the numbers on this deal. I’m sure the Greens, along with numerous other groups will be ’staring down’ the executive. The question is though, is 20 days enough time for these groups and the media to read and analyse a complex technical document then lead an informed public debate on it?
March 31st, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Why are Greens reportedly “opposing” if you also haven’t seen it?
March 31st, 2008 at 5:19 pm
BluePeter Says:
March 31st, 2008 at 3:52 pm
> Why are Greens reportedly “opposing� if you also haven’t seen it?
I haven’t seen it, and I oppose it because I’m opposed to the government signing New Zealand up to an agreement that Parliament and the poeple haven’t had a chance to scrutinise.
March 31st, 2008 at 5:22 pm
I sense it’s more of a default ideological position against free trade.
Put another way - what provisions of the free trade agreement would make it acceptable/unacceptable?
March 31st, 2008 at 9:25 pm
The government should look after our country the way a parent looks after a family.
Any kind of free trade opens up the family members to being abused and unreasonably taken advantage of.
Sadly however, it is already too late for our government to regain the level of stewardship it should have retained over our country.
When they sold out Telecom, Tranzrail etc, and allowed floods of British, Asian and South African immigrants to buy up our land and homes with incomes our average Kiwis could never hope to match, they threw the baby out with the bathwater and consigned us all to a form of social prostitution that continues all over again with the signing of the Chinese FTA.
It is just simply too late to do anything other than roll over and let the Chinese take advantage of us. As they certainly will.
Let me hazard a prediction: Once China signs the agreement they will be in a position to take control of vast areas of land (probably for the purposes of forestry etc) and merely use us as a seedbed for their own timber/food needs.
The best of NZ dairy produce etc will be sold off to the highest bidder overseas, and the rest of us will have to scrabble for cheap junky food imports from the worst areas of China, while so much of our (even marginal) arable land will be lost to NZ control, and be nothing more than an on-tap resource for the great Chinese populace.
If you think it is hard for our young people to afford a house now, just watch happens after 10 years of an FTA with China.
March 31st, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Good points travellerev.
Maybe that means we should only trade with ourselves though…
It would certainly put paid to the food-miles debate.
April 1st, 2008 at 8:57 am
greengeek
So after all is done and said we are still not discussing the f*@&ng war we are engaged in, what is wrong with you people?????
China does nothing wrong compared with the US and you guys don’t even want to start that discussion.
(And I hate what China is doing wrong)
I can’t believe you guys, you kiwis are so ignorant and so frustrating.
We are engaged in a war of aggression and we are doing so helping the USA.
get the hell real.
Sorry moderator, I generally try to stay polite but right now I want to punch something.
April 1st, 2008 at 12:30 pm
travellerev,
Please take a deep breath and relax!
As you seem to get your “you”s and “we”s mixed up, I assume you are someone who has come here to make Aotearoa your home ?
There is little use in RANTING on a Green Party website about “our” involvement in USA’s wars. You would do better to look through the archives and see how often we clearly disagree with that country’s belligerent behaviour in the World.
Greens believe in non violent conflict resolution.
Personally, I have attended every anti war protest for decades and regularly contact my Member of Parliament etc etc when Aotearoa’s so called “allies” try to bully us to join in their belligerance.
For decades now, when Aotearoan personnel do take part in various conflicts they tend to be small specialist groups who work alone. In general these are part of “support” rather than fighting forces.
There is a good saying that I always heed:
“Let Peace begin with me”.
I apply that on blogs as well!
eredwen
April 1st, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Dear eredwen,
I hear you and thank you for at least acknowledging my post.
Yes you are right, I am a relative newcomer in paradise, and I want to keep it that way. I apologise for my earlier rant. I know the Jeanette is fully up and running with the anti war thing and so are most greenies, but we need to rev this thing up and get our guys out, especially since they are now getting attacked. They have no cause to be there. If the Afghanistan peoples request kiwi assistance after the US and NATO have gone by all means, let’s help them, but until then let’s stay the hell away from the wars. And I agree with you, let peace start with me, but also; it is my duty to speak truth to power.
And sometimes you have to kick a little ass to kick start a discussion on the war we are currently involved in.
Kind regards and peace to you eredwen
April 1st, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Something about the phase of the moon perhaps
http://www.gocomics.com/tomthedancingbug/
April 1st, 2008 at 7:33 pm
This particular thread was about the value of an FTA with China, rather than about war.
If you can think of any practical ways of stopping NZ involvement with other nations’ wars I am sure many Greens will be keen to add their comments.
So far as I am aware we don’t have an FTA with the US so it is probably not a good comparison with what we are probably about to sign with China.
Personally I would like to see NZ tighten up it’s borders and not sign FTAs with anyone except those countries whose ethics, and behaviours we agree with. Unfortunately it would be a short list and New Zealanders would have to get used to a much reduced standard of living.
Who knows, maybe we would not even be able to get hold of solar panels etc etc. Maybe we would not be able to import food from overseas, which would leave us at the mercy of the farmers who would export most of their produce and profiteer from selling us the poor quality remainder.
It is a sad reality that we need to deal with ‘less-than-perfect” trading partners, if for no other reason that NZ needs to pay it’s bills, and doesn’t have the luxury any more of pretending that it is a fully self-contained isolated island in the middle of paradise.
In any case, it is a forlorn hope that we could ever improve the behaviour of countries such as China or the USA. Scream and yell all you want they will never take notice.
April 1st, 2008 at 9:05 pm
travellerev,
I hope you feel a bit better!
If you can, do get to know a few more Greens, if you haven’t already!
Just one example: Keith Locke (MP) comes from a family which has a long and respected history in Peace Movement.
As a newcomer here, please realise:
1. AotearoaNZ is a small and geographically isolated country.
Affecting “our” decisions are:
(a) current partnerships with other countries … in terms of alliances and trade:
(Had a National Government been in power, currently we could well have had regular Service Personnel involved in both Afghanistan and in Iraq.)
The specialist groups, that were sent to represent us instead, were to a degree, “expedient”.
(b) We also have History:
eg : 1. our ANZAC partners the Aussies
2. the many young Americans who died stopping the Japanese moving south in the “Battle of the Coral Sea” in WW2
(At that time, Aotearoa would have been unable to stop a Japanese invasion.)
One of the ways we, as a small country, can get around our vulnerability is to “play our part” in non combatant ways.
In Vietnam, for example, my brother did two tours of duty working in an “ANZ Armed Forces Field Hospital for Vietnamese civilians” staffed by Kiwi doctors and Aussie nurses … These hospitals treated everyone who came for help.
YES we would love to be purists … sometimes we have to settle for expedience first … while we aim higher!
April 1st, 2008 at 9:16 pm
travellerev
You will have to excuse Eredwen as he/she is given to telling lies.
There is no evidence that would support the accusation that NZ would have troops in Iraq, this is simply propaganda pushed by left wing parties.
I wonder if you can tell me how non violent conflict resolution works with somebody like Bin Laden….it would be fascinating to see how it was done.
April 1st, 2008 at 9:22 pm
To add to the previous … by “we ” I mean Aotearoa and its human inhabitants.
April 1st, 2008 at 9:34 pm
big bro Says:
April 1st, 2008 at 9:16 pm
> You will have to excuse Eredwen as he/she is given to telling lies.
> There is no evidence that would support the accusation that NZ would have troops in Iraq, this is simply propaganda pushed by left wing parties.
admittedly it is not proven either way, because National MPs have said both that they would have sent troops and that they wouldn’t.
> I wonder if you can tell me how non violent conflict resolution works with somebody like Bin Laden…
The US could have started by negotiating with the taleban to hand over Osama Bin Laden for trial. The Taleban said they were willing to hand him over. They might have been lying, but it would have been worth testing their offer in the first instance to see if they were genuine.
April 1st, 2008 at 9:40 pm
Good on you big bro!
The behaviour attributed to “somebody like Bin Laden” is produced when somebodies (like the group who currently shelter behind the Presidency of the USA with George Bush as a figurehead) use often covert violence and destruction in other peoples’ countries to gain wealth and power for themselves …
But let’s not go there big bro … it would require a lot of research and reading on your part for you to “get up to speed” from where you seem to be now.
One thing that you have absolutely WRONG about me … Apparently I gave up telling lies as a VERY small child.
Cheers!
eredwen
April 2nd, 2008 at 2:25 pm
>I wonder if you can tell me how non violent conflict resolution works with somebody like Bin Laden…
Osama bin Laden, now there is an interesting story. Osama, did you mean the CIA trained, financially supported by the USA when he fought with the Mujahedeen against the Russians. Did you mean Osama who’s head was going to be brought to the White House in the weeks after 911 and who was no longer important to Bush 6 months after 911. Did you mean the Osama bin Laden was allowed to escape from Torah Borah, or the one whose family the Bush family still does business with through the Carlyle group, or the one who’s family was allowed to fly out of the US the day after 911, while not a single other plane was allowed to fly. Or the Osama who pops up every time the the US government needs to scare the wits out of their own population, or the perhaps the Osama who was in a Pakistany military hospital on the 10 of september, a day before 911 because he needed kidney dialysis. Or Osama the brother of Shafig bin Laden who met with Bush senior, the morning or 911.
You see I have a problem with Osama and his role in the attacks of 911.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO311A.html
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4PGmnz5Ow-o&feature=related
http://www.prisonplanet.com/041203metwithbinladen.html
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/46.html
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:02 am
Great links travellerev!
Thank you (for saving me the trouble of locating that stuff again!)
April 3rd, 2008 at 10:12 am
Hi eredwen,
If you like this stuff than you are cordially invited to visit my two blogs I run,
I could really do with someone who is up and running with the events of 911.
I was in Sidney three weeks ago to meet with some of my 911 truth heroes, it was awesome.
http://crazyrichguy.wordpress.com
http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com
I’m curious to hear what you think of my blogs and 911.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Interesting blogs, but what exactly are you hoping to achieve by expending so much energy on evaluating 911 and contemporary politics?
Are you hoping to discover that modern politicians and big business may in fact be working hand in hand for their own benefit rather than our own? Shock horror. What a surprise.
You belittled green efforts to evaluate the benefits (or otherwise) that a Chinese FTA holds for NZ, but then waste infinite time chasing the tails of the rich and powerful.
Why??
April 4th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Dear green geek,
I apologise if my writing can be interpreted as anti green anything. I have met Jeanette and admire her greatly I want to support her and the green party, anything I want to enable her and her party to be able to speak out more broadly. If I decide to vote there will probably vote for the green party.
I do not only talk the talk, I walked the walk. My husband and I live a sustainably as we can afford to live on a small rented farm. Our garden is slowly turned into a veritable perma culture food forest and supports us and our in laws.
In his spare time my husband works on alternative sources of energy and we try to limit the consumerism to what we really need.
I hope this sets your mind at ease as far as my dedication to the green cause is concerned.
So that leaves us with your second question.
Let’s start with my attitude towards wealth. I know a fair amount of people that have amassed more than average amounts of wealth whether it be land or money. And good for them, they have their reasons and needs as I’ve made my choices based on my needs. I count many of these people among my friends and I value their opinions and the integrity with which they approach their life and our friendship, so I don’t have a particular problem with people who have wealth.
And to a certain extent I can even understand that different interests come into play with the accumulation of wealth. During our long history societies have never been egalitarian and some people are just simply better at earning a buck or farming or digging up gold.
In general this doesn’t present much of the problem, just so long as they see themselves part of the community they live in. If the wealthier see themselves as blessed and are prepared to help the less fortunate on occasion or are too share some of what they have to spare we can all get along. There may be a time that fortunes reverse and they need someone else to help them out. For me this has human proportions and as a sustainable way in which a human community can survive while not exhausting our environment. I
In general the difference in income only becomes a problem when the people who are wealthier begin to imagine themselves as deserving of that extra wealth and begin to see those of us as less deserving or even as lesser human beings.
Again, this has occurred many times in our history. Abuse, genocide, war they’re nothing new but it doesn’t make them any less horrible.
At this moment two wars are raging. One in Afghanistan, and the other in Iraq. Other than what the main news outlets tell us the war that we are involved in, the one in Afghanistan is not a good war.
It is a slow and horrible genocide and New Zealand soldiers however honourable their attitude are caught in the middle.
The fact that New Zealand is part of the Coalition of the willing and as such lends the legality to the war.
The ultimate motivation for us entering the war were the events of 911. The world was swept up in a huge wave of solidarity with the American people when we thought 19 hijackers with box cutters were able to attack the world trade centres and the Pentagon. And as true friends of the American people we wanted to help me wanted to catch the perpetrators and we were ready to stand by their side.
But after a couple of years with the initial focus on getting the perpetrators completely abandoned and with another war initiated by the United States on a country that had nothing to do with the events of 911 and based on what was clearly a series of deliberate lies many of us began to ask questions.
We began to ask questions about the wars, and more importantly we began to ask questions about what led to the wars. And it turns out that everything changed on the day of 911. And since it turns out that this was the single most important moment in recent history, one that enabled the United States of America to go to war against two innocent countries, Iraq and Afghanistan and possibly Iran, it was inevitable that many of us would start to question what happened on that fateful day.
While most of us were just inquisitive citizens and as such possibly not entitled to draw conclusions other than the official version, some of us were very well equipped a question the official conspiracy theory, but when ex policemen, physicists, chemists, architects and engineers and pilots and military start to ask pertinent questions and find answers that are directly opposing the official version of events, in fact if sound science proves conclusively that the official “conspiracy theory” is impossible, then don’t you think that it is important for all of us to know?
If the official conspiracy theory is in fact the only theory that would have been impossible, then the world has had very, very big problem.
In fact, I put it to you that if the events of 911 could not have been perpetrated by 19 young hijackers inspired by I fundamentalist Muslim in a cave in Afghanistan or Pakistan and the world is hijacked by very small group of very powerful people. To me this is a terrifying idea.
The thought that a very small group of people can do whatever the hell they like to other people and to the world without any accountability is unbearable to me. Especially since what it appears they wanted to is to destroy the Middle East, its people, its cultures and it seems they don’t just want to destroy it for now but for hundreds of years since the amounts of depleted uranium used the battlegrounds will guarantee environmental destruction of an unimaginable scale in the Middle East into the far future. Not only that, the American government has now made a nuclear first strike part of its policy and the suggestion is that they intend to attack Iran and its nuclear facilities bunker busting nuclear bombs.
Knowing this I have no choice but to spend my life fighting the horrors to come, I really mean I literally have no choice.
For someone intend on living green within the human community the very thought of a country using nuclear weapons of mass destruction at all should be unbearable, and the thought of a country using nuclear bombs as a first strike option against a country that has not attacked another country in 300 years should allow you no choice but to spend your time fulltime fighting this evil no matter where you live on earth because nuclear fallout will go everywhere.
Other effects of the two wars fought already have an impact on your life. Food prices will rise to the point where even we might not be able to afford a piece of cheese or butter let alone what we’ll do to third world countries, their peoples and their environment.
A couple of months ago six armed nuclear devices were mounted under the B52 bomber, there were flown from the basis where they were stationed to the basis from were military operations aimed at the Middle East are initiated. Apparently this alarmed military personnel so much that they leaked this information to the Military times. This news exploded onto the Blogosphere and since they couldn’t suppress the information, the mainstream press in the United States had to acknowledge the incident and an official investigation was started, then ended prematurely, and finally it was put down as an unfortunate accidental series of events that shouldn’t have happened, I think someone was fired and it was the end of that.
But it wasn’t the end because military top Brass started to speak out and people knowledgeable on nuclear protocol began to write articles that spread throughout the blogosphere again, it turns out that it is impossible without the right people, the right codes, and multiple layers of authority to move or even get into the caves where these devices are being kept, let alone remove six of them. The Correct protocol to move nuclear devices across the United States would have been to dismantle them, to disarmed them, pack the parts in crates, the crates inside planes had are especially build for this purpose, and then bring them to wherever they need to go. It turns out that as soon as the nuclear devices are mounted under the wing of the B52 bomber they connect with the aeroplane’s computer which announces them exactly forward they are, nuclear weapons of mass destruction. In other words the pilot of the B52 bomber must have known what he was carrying.
To the military Brass writing about the “incident” it was clear that authorization must have come from the highest echelons of power some of them even dared to speak of Dick Cheney’s Office.
The soldiers who spoke out must have been aware of what was intended, and they were incredibly courageous to speak out and leaked the information to Military times, in fact the newspaper was incredibly courageous for printing the information, the fact that us bloggers spread the information like wildfire throughout the world, so that the mainstream press was forced to acknowledge it, is perhaps one of the clearest examples of what we can achieve as private citizens, and how vigilant we need to be at this crucial moment in time. The immediate and huge interest in the event, and the huge exposure may have been what prevented Nuclear arms having been send to the Middle East.
By the way, six army personnel of the nuclear base have died violently deaths in the weeks after the news leakage.
Coming to the end of this post, if I have to draw a conclusion as to why it is so important to me to discuss this subject on the green blog it is that I honestly believe that in order to be able to grow towards sustainability we have to address war as a Green issue. War is one of the most destructive human activities, not just for us as human beings but destruction perpetrated on our world. In the bigger picture of course war should be an issue for everybody, and I write on other blogs as well but here on the green blog it is relevant as a green issue.
Here are a couple of links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_United_States_Air_Force_nuclear_weap ons_incident
http://indymedia.org.nz/newswire/display/73657/index.php
http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_7409.cfm
http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/?q=node/57
http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=203529
Kind regards
Evelyn Gilbert
April 4th, 2008 at 10:40 am
Apologies for the typos,
English is not my first language and sometimes I don’t spend enough time checking.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Travelerev
I suspect Cheney of many many things, but the nature of the work being done makes it far more plausible to me that the more innocent explanation of the transportation of the supposed-to-have-been-unarmed missiles is the correct one.
Live warheads were mounted on the weapons and that was how they were stored. Dummy warheads were supposed to be mounted on the missiles before transport… so this transport would NOT contravene standing orders about nukes. The conspiracy theorist glosses over this point to then demand to know who ordered that the standing order should be violated. There are more logical errors in the analysis that followed that… I won’t repeat all of them.
I know how this sort of mistake can occur… even in a place like Minot… heck… ESPECIALLY in a place like Minot. Humans are very bad at maintaining a reliable and secure process. Inevitably nothing happens (the process is working perfectly) and the people involved become complacent and start to cut corners. The process starts to break down. Finally something breaks… something gets loose… a catastrophe occurs or is narrowly averted, and the lesson is driven home again and the process is fixed…. but the very perfection of the correction is its own downfall because the cycle will repeat, nothing bad happens and people become complacent again. This is one of the problems with nuclear safety in general. It applies specifically to an ordnance handling unit.
Cheney is (to me) another “Dr Strangelove” character straight out the movie of the same name. His evil goes so deep that he seems proud of it… but the nukes conspiracy is just over the top for me. Sorry… Cheney arranged for the Iraq war, his operations to alter the intelligence reports and estimates are publicly acknowledged. His office is behind the deaths and maiming of upwards of 150 thousand people… and he is proud of doing his job. He’s a treasonous treacherous snake who deserves nothing but the back of my hand… but I can’t go with this conspiracy.
On the OTHER hand… welcome to NZ and to the Green Party website and don’t worry ’bout your English…. we have philU and PeterQuixote.
respectfully
BJ
April 4th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Hi BJ,
Thank you for your welcoming words.
It wasn’t me saying that about Cheney but Pentagon insiders. Have you seen some of the links?
Especially the one on protocol and the fact that if the computers of the bombs the IRA connected to the computer of the B52 bomber it tells the computer and hence the pilot reads what he is carrying. Fake nuclear warheads are shown as fake nuclear warheads, life nuclear warheads are alive nuclear warheads. According off to a pentagon insider a chain of errors was so long it just wasn’t plausible. If in several stages of getting to the nuclear warheads different people with different codes would have to connects would have to enter codes in order to be able to take nuclear warheads out of their vaults. Fake nuclear warheads are not stocked in the same vaults as life nuclear warheads. It is not like they are lying around ready to be picked up by any old guy who happens to be around them. To get to the nukes you have to get through the whole chain of command, pairing officers checking each other and entering codes, one wrong code, No entrance. One wrong code, and alarms will ring and computers will be warned. This was the first time in 40 years that life nukes were flown across the United States hanging from a B52, from Minot air base to Barksdale air base, the air base which serves as the base from which most of the actions for the Middle East theatre originate.
I realise that for most people it is easier to call someone like me at “conspiracy theorist� but the fact of the matter is I spend about 8 hours a day just fact checking. I can do this with the help of my husband and thanks to the fact that we have an abundant vegetable garden and I can make our income stretch by doing things in the house that most people go out and buy and have to earn money for, like making our own bread, or make our own booze. I would love nothing better than to be proven wrong about the issues that I write about. But until now the science and facts lead me away from the old paradigm. The one that says you can trust your leaders, they’re there to protect you. The fact is “false flag� operations are done and have been done many times by especially our governments.