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	<title>Comments on: South Australia adopts NZ Green Party policy</title>
	<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/</link>
	<description>hopping along the corridors of power</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38729</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 12:51:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38729</guid>
		<description>Maybe y'all need to relax, sit a spell, take ya shoes off
http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/nasacity/index.htm
y'all come back now, ya hear?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe y&#8217;all need to relax, sit a spell, take ya shoes off<br />
<a href="http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/nasacity/index.htm" >http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/nasacity/index.htm</a><br />
y&#8217;all come back now, ya hear?</p>
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		<title>By: bjchip</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38721</link>
		<dc:creator>bjchip</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 09:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38721</guid>
		<description>http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/edn.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/edn.htm" >http://www.nanosolar.com/cache/edn.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: waymad</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38711</link>
		<dc:creator>waymad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 07:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38711</guid>
		<description>Thx for your instruction, Trev.  I prefer the original formulation from ol' T J Rodgers hisself - the guy who owns &lt;a href="http://sunpowercorp.com/" rel="nofollow"&gt;Sunpower&lt;/a&gt; - he did, after all, invent the VMOS chip fab process:  if he thinks Moore is in play, and is producing panels while holding that belief as we speak, that'll do it for me.  Pro experience over amateur opinion, really.

And the point about PV pricing, esoterica aside, is that there are multiple, competing technologies in play, well funded, and just at the start of their S-curves.  All of Nanosolar's output is contracted to Germany for 2008, for example, and several of the other roll-to-roll thin-film players haven't actually turned on the presses yet.  So we are in the 'eagerly anticipating' phase, here at the other end of the world.  But there are a couple of predictions that are no-brainers about this whole business:

1 - production capablility already announced runs to gigawatts per year, and more players are joining the gold rush.  There will be much scope for local dealerships, franchises, JV's and other distribution modes. SunPower, for instance, sells only in 25+ subdivision house lots.  There's scale to burn.

2 - in NZ's funky little economy, with new large-scale generation made practically impossible, the more-aware power companies will be looking at this and other distributed generation modes, as their mainstream business model.

Ain't nanotechnology wunnerful?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thx for your instruction, Trev.  I prefer the original formulation from ol&#8217; T J Rodgers hisself - the guy who owns <a href="http://sunpowercorp.com/" >Sunpower</a> - he did, after all, invent the VMOS chip fab process:  if he thinks Moore is in play, and is producing panels while holding that belief as we speak, that&#8217;ll do it for me.  Pro experience over amateur opinion, really.</p>
<p>And the point about PV pricing, esoterica aside, is that there are multiple, competing technologies in play, well funded, and just at the start of their S-curves.  All of Nanosolar&#8217;s output is contracted to Germany for 2008, for example, and several of the other roll-to-roll thin-film players haven&#8217;t actually turned on the presses yet.  So we are in the &#8216;eagerly anticipating&#8217; phase, here at the other end of the world.  But there are a couple of predictions that are no-brainers about this whole business:</p>
<p>1 - production capablility already announced runs to gigawatts per year, and more players are joining the gold rush.  There will be much scope for local dealerships, franchises, JV&#8217;s and other distribution modes. SunPower, for instance, sells only in 25+ subdivision house lots.  There&#8217;s scale to burn.</p>
<p>2 - in NZ&#8217;s funky little economy, with new large-scale generation made practically impossible, the more-aware power companies will be looking at this and other distributed generation modes, as their mainstream business model.</p>
<p>Ain&#8217;t nanotechnology wunnerful?</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor29</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38702</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 06:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38702</guid>
		<description>If you are going to quote Moore's Law, get it right. It is double the capacity every 2 years, not 12 months.

Moore's law is not necessarily applicable to solar cells. It was originally used to describe transistors, where reduced feature size directly increased capabilities and therefore reduces costs. Solar panels need area, so reducing feature size doesn't help (or if it does help, it doesn't help as much as when making arrays of transistors).

Solar panel prices will fall, but I doubt that it will be by a factor of 2 every 2 years.

Trevor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are going to quote Moore&#8217;s Law, get it right. It is double the capacity every 2 years, not 12 months.</p>
<p>Moore&#8217;s law is not necessarily applicable to solar cells. It was originally used to describe transistors, where reduced feature size directly increased capabilities and therefore reduces costs. Solar panels need area, so reducing feature size doesn&#8217;t help (or if it does help, it doesn&#8217;t help as much as when making arrays of transistors).</p>
<p>Solar panel prices will fall, but I doubt that it will be by a factor of 2 every 2 years.</p>
<p>Trevor.</p>
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		<title>By: waymad</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38697</link>
		<dc:creator>waymad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 04:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38697</guid>
		<description>Foller this &lt;a href="http://waymad.blogspot.com/2008/02/solar-is-subject-to-moores-law.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;, read the harticle (tip:  &lt;a href="http://www.instapundit.com" rel="nofollow"&gt;Instapundit&lt;/a&gt;), and be hedumicated, Buckles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Foller this <a href="http://waymad.blogspot.com/2008/02/solar-is-subject-to-moores-law.html" >link</a>, read the harticle (tip:  <a href="http://www.instapundit.com" >Instapundit</a>), and be hedumicated, Buckles.</p>
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		<title>By: dbuckley</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38679</link>
		<dc:creator>dbuckley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 22:41:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38679</guid>
		<description>On &lt;a HREF="http://www.solarbuzz.com/ModulePrices.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;this web page&lt;/a&gt; is some data on retail price of PV modules over about the last five years.  During that entire period the USD price per watt (peak) has always begun with a 4.  Doesn't look much like Moores Law in action to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On <a HREF="http://www.solarbuzz.com/ModulePrices.htm" >this web page</a> is some data on retail price of PV modules over about the last five years.  During that entire period the USD price per watt (peak) has always begun with a 4.  Doesn&#8217;t look much like Moores Law in action to me.</p>
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		<title>By: waymad</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38673</link>
		<dc:creator>waymad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 22:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38673</guid>
		<description>samiuela:  Solar PV being a semiconductor tecnology, follows &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law" rel="nofollow"&gt;Moores Law&lt;/a&gt;:  costs halve or capabilities double every 12 months.  Current US manufacturers are aiming for $USD0.50/watt as a bare-panel price.  That's 10% of the current cost. 

You are IMHO thinking too narrowly on two points:

1 - letting the perfect get in the way of the good.  Ferget the world population.  Act Local.  Solar is a good thing from several POV's:  it decentralises generation, end-runs the otherwise rancourous debate about haram and halal appliances (if you can generate the juice, why not have the electrical equivalent of a Humvee?), and privatises presently social costs of generation such as wild viewscapes (windfarms), wild rivers (hydro), Gaia's body temperature (geothermal) and the relic of the 5000 ppm CO2 levels of yore (coal).

2 - not thinking about the capacity of private sector marketing and financing to get that good deal.  Hell, if a gormless car hoon can put down $1 and drive away in his Nissan Skyline, it should be possible even for the calcified bureaucracies of State generators to devise a pay-as-you-go scheme.  You're assuming a self-funded private-person approach.  Stand in a central generator's shoes for a second - if you cannot build new capacity because of NIMBY's, the RMA, a wallowing Gummint and a raging mass delusion over AGW, then, suddenly, financing thousands of homeowners into their very own personal generator does have some sudden appeal as a new business model, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>samiuela:  Solar PV being a semiconductor tecnology, follows <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law" >Moores Law</a>:  costs halve or capabilities double every 12 months.  Current US manufacturers are aiming for $USD0.50/watt as a bare-panel price.  That&#8217;s 10% of the current cost. </p>
<p>You are IMHO thinking too narrowly on two points:</p>
<p>1 - letting the perfect get in the way of the good.  Ferget the world population.  Act Local.  Solar is a good thing from several POV&#8217;s:  it decentralises generation, end-runs the otherwise rancourous debate about haram and halal appliances (if you can generate the juice, why not have the electrical equivalent of a Humvee?), and privatises presently social costs of generation such as wild viewscapes (windfarms), wild rivers (hydro), Gaia&#8217;s body temperature (geothermal) and the relic of the 5000 ppm CO2 levels of yore (coal).</p>
<p>2 - not thinking about the capacity of private sector marketing and financing to get that good deal.  Hell, if a gormless car hoon can put down $1 and drive away in his Nissan Skyline, it should be possible even for the calcified bureaucracies of State generators to devise a pay-as-you-go scheme.  You&#8217;re assuming a self-funded private-person approach.  Stand in a central generator&#8217;s shoes for a second - if you cannot build new capacity because of NIMBY&#8217;s, the RMA, a wallowing Gummint and a raging mass delusion over AGW, then, suddenly, financing thousands of homeowners into their very own personal generator does have some sudden appeal as a new business model, no?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38607</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 13:59:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38607</guid>
		<description>Frog pointed out that "Currently, in NZ, you can only be paid the wholesale price of the juice, (not the lines charge bit either)."

The very situation LAQC was designed for. Am I right or am I right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frog pointed out that &#8220;Currently, in NZ, you can only be paid the wholesale price of the juice, (not the lines charge bit either).&#8221;</p>
<p>The very situation LAQC was designed for. Am I right or am I right?</p>
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		<title>By: samiuela</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38602</link>
		<dc:creator>samiuela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38602</guid>
		<description>The problem I can see with solar panels is the initial cost. They may well recover their cost over 15 or 20 years, but if you can't afford to buy them in the first place, its a bit academic.

The reality, is that most of the world's population will not be able to afford PV panels, even if the cost came down by a factor of 10 (I'm serious). At present, it costs over $10000 to equip an average house with solar panels. Even at $1000, people in developing countries are not going to be able to afford the initial outlay.

What is needed is some inovative way to make the installation costs affordable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem I can see with solar panels is the initial cost. They may well recover their cost over 15 or 20 years, but if you can&#8217;t afford to buy them in the first place, its a bit academic.</p>
<p>The reality, is that most of the world&#8217;s population will not be able to afford PV panels, even if the cost came down by a factor of 10 (I&#8217;m serious). At present, it costs over $10000 to equip an average house with solar panels. Even at $1000, people in developing countries are not going to be able to afford the initial outlay.</p>
<p>What is needed is some inovative way to make the installation costs affordable.</p>
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		<title>By: Ari</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38600</link>
		<dc:creator>Ari</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Feb 2008 10:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/28/sa-adopts-nz-green-party-policy/#comment-38600</guid>
		<description>Mouldwarp: One person's tea is another's coffee. I know biology majors who would be far more interested in frogs than in solar panels. :)

I agree thought that this does highlight another area in which New Zealand could really improve its energy legislation. Keep on pushing the good policies on energy, Greens! :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mouldwarp: One person&#8217;s tea is another&#8217;s coffee. I know biology majors who would be far more interested in frogs than in solar panels. <img src='http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I agree thought that this does highlight another area in which New Zealand could really improve its energy legislation. Keep on pushing the good policies on energy, Greens! <img src='http://blog.greens.org.nz/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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