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	<title>Comments on: Food democracy</title>
	<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/</link>
	<description>hopping along the corridors of power</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:28:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: StephenR</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38546</link>
		<dc:creator>StephenR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38546</guid>
		<description>The all-knowing FAQ would probably disagree with you on a few points there libertyscott...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The all-knowing FAQ would probably disagree with you on a few points there libertyscott&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: even</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38540</link>
		<dc:creator>even</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 21:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38540</guid>
		<description>Kevyn, pretty much yes to your questions but a thing is, which i won't say anything more about, this kind of stuff isn't even the A or B game, anyway here's some more blurbs from same book review drawn on above.
 Incidently, before i go on any further, all this friggin nonsense and much more besides, NZ wouldn't have to be beholden to in the first place if people had enough sense to vote for getting back ownership of their own money supply-DSC 08!!
 ahem...
 
 "Rockefeller Foundation funding was the Gene Revolution's catalyst in 1985 with big aims - to learn if GMO plants were commercially feasible and if so spread them everywhere. It was the "new eugenics" and the culmination of earlier research from the 1930s. It was also based on the idea that human problems can be "solved by genetic and chemical manipulations....as the ultimate means of social control and social engineering." Foundation scientists sought ways to do it by reducing infinite life complexities to "simple, deterministic and predictive models" under their diabolical scheme - mapping gene structures to "correct social and moral problems including crime, poverty, hunger and political instability." With the development of essential genetic engineering techniques in 1973, they were on their way...
...Argentina became the first "guinea pig" nation in a reckless experiment with untested and potentially hazardous new foods. No matter, potential profits are enormous so concerns for public safety and human health are ignored. Let the revolution begin in real time.

By the end of the 1980s, a global network of genetically-trained molecular biologists were ready to kick it off, Argentina was their first test laboratory, and it was hailed as a "Second Green Revolution." Look what followed. From 1996 to 2004, worldwide GMO crop planting expanded to 167 million acres, a 40-fold increase using 25% of total worldwide arable land. An astonishing two-thirds of the acreage (106 million acres) was in the US. By 2004, Argentina was in second place with 34 million acres while production is expanding in Brazil, China, Canada, South Africa, Indonesia, India, the Philippines, Colombia, Honduras, Spain and Eastern Europe (Poland, Romania and Bulgaria). The revolution was on a roll and looks unstoppable...
 ..Monsanto then pressured the government to recognize its "technology license fee." A Technology Compensation Fund was established and managed by the Ministry of Agriculture. It forced farmers to pay a near-1% fee on GMO soybean sales. Monsanto and other GMO seed suppliers got the funds. By 2005, Brazil's government relented. It legalized GMO seeds for the first time, and by 2006, the US, Argentina and Brazil accounted for over 81% of world soybean production. It "ensure(s) that practically every animal in the world fed soymeal (is) eating genetically engineered soybeans." It also means everyone eating these animals does the same thing unwittingly...."
 And while people are still coming to grips with GMO, nano-food technology is expected to start it's own march this year too. hoo hum....well what u expect, our monetary financial system is a treadmill like those the lab mice have, this other stuff is a natural consequence.

 DSC 08.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevyn, pretty much yes to your questions but a thing is, which i won&#8217;t say anything more about, this kind of stuff isn&#8217;t even the A or B game, anyway here&#8217;s some more blurbs from same book review drawn on above.<br />
 Incidently, before i go on any further, all this friggin nonsense and much more besides, NZ wouldn&#8217;t have to be beholden to in the first place if people had enough sense to vote for getting back ownership of their own money supply-DSC 08!!<br />
 ahem&#8230;</p>
<p> &#8220;Rockefeller Foundation funding was the Gene Revolution&#8217;s catalyst in 1985 with big aims - to learn if GMO plants were commercially feasible and if so spread them everywhere. It was the &#8220;new eugenics&#8221; and the culmination of earlier research from the 1930s. It was also based on the idea that human problems can be &#8220;solved by genetic and chemical manipulations&#8230;.as the ultimate means of social control and social engineering.&#8221; Foundation scientists sought ways to do it by reducing infinite life complexities to &#8220;simple, deterministic and predictive models&#8221; under their diabolical scheme - mapping gene structures to &#8220;correct social and moral problems including crime, poverty, hunger and political instability.&#8221; With the development of essential genetic engineering techniques in 1973, they were on their way&#8230;<br />
&#8230;Argentina became the first &#8220;guinea pig&#8221; nation in a reckless experiment with untested and potentially hazardous new foods. No matter, potential profits are enormous so concerns for public safety and human health are ignored. Let the revolution begin in real time.</p>
<p>By the end of the 1980s, a global network of genetically-trained molecular biologists were ready to kick it off, Argentina was their first test laboratory, and it was hailed as a &#8220;Second Green Revolution.&#8221; Look what followed. From 1996 to 2004, worldwide GMO crop planting expanded to 167 million acres, a 40-fold increase using 25% of total worldwide arable land. An astonishing two-thirds of the acreage (106 million acres) was in the US. By 2004, Argentina was in second place with 34 million acres while production is expanding in Brazil, China, Canada, South Africa, Indonesia, India, the Philippines, Colombia, Honduras, Spain and Eastern Europe (Poland, Romania and Bulgaria). The revolution was on a roll and looks unstoppable&#8230;<br />
 ..Monsanto then pressured the government to recognize its &#8220;technology license fee.&#8221; A Technology Compensation Fund was established and managed by the Ministry of Agriculture. It forced farmers to pay a near-1% fee on GMO soybean sales. Monsanto and other GMO seed suppliers got the funds. By 2005, Brazil&#8217;s government relented. It legalized GMO seeds for the first time, and by 2006, the US, Argentina and Brazil accounted for over 81% of world soybean production. It &#8220;ensure(s) that practically every animal in the world fed soymeal (is) eating genetically engineered soybeans.&#8221; It also means everyone eating these animals does the same thing unwittingly&#8230;.&#8221;<br />
 And while people are still coming to grips with GMO, nano-food technology is expected to start it&#8217;s own march this year too. hoo hum&#8230;.well what u expect, our monetary financial system is a treadmill like those the lab mice have, this other stuff is a natural consequence.</p>
<p> DSC 08.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38530</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38530</guid>
		<description>even, Can you clarify your comment "a global food system that can give give rats leukemia and tumors is implemented for millions purposely"?

Do you mean like Ford with the Pinto. They know it's dangerous but their cost/benefit analysis concluded that it will simply be cheaper to settle the court cases than to fix the product. Or like the tobacco industry, they hope they can supress the evidence long enough to retire in luxury?

Or do you actually mean that there is a global population control program?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>even, Can you clarify your comment &#8220;a global food system that can give give rats leukemia and tumors is implemented for millions purposely&#8221;?</p>
<p>Do you mean like Ford with the Pinto. They know it&#8217;s dangerous but their cost/benefit analysis concluded that it will simply be cheaper to settle the court cases than to fix the product. Or like the tobacco industry, they hope they can supress the evidence long enough to retire in luxury?</p>
<p>Or do you actually mean that there is a global population control program?</p>
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		<title>By: libertyscott</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38528</link>
		<dc:creator>libertyscott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 13:16:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38528</guid>
		<description>Stephen, fair point.  You can choose to pay an inflated price for "fair trade" rather than buy something else with the difference, but my chief concern is most of that premium being held onto by the retailer.   The accountability for the premium seems to be very low, and there are a mountain of other reasons to not send signals to keep overproducing inefficiently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen, fair point.  You can choose to pay an inflated price for &#8220;fair trade&#8221; rather than buy something else with the difference, but my chief concern is most of that premium being held onto by the retailer.   The accountability for the premium seems to be very low, and there are a mountain of other reasons to not send signals to keep overproducing inefficiently.</p>
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		<title>By: bikemike</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38521</link>
		<dc:creator>bikemike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2008 09:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38521</guid>
		<description>The choice we have here is illusory.  What value the choice among many tweaks to a denatured product?  This flavour, that cut, the other twist.  How devalued is our sense of food.

To be topically literal about it, I find one, and on some days two, varieties of milk in my supermarket that that are not homogenised.  The staff don't even seem to know what un-homogenised is, let alone have any idea of the philosophical, commercial or health reasons I would want to buy unhomogenised milk and not the other stuff.

I once counted over 40 varieties of humus; not one of them claiming to be GE free or organic.  Every one but two being some 'added value' choice, not a choice of quality or providence for example, no expressions of the essence of good humus.

Don't get me started on the zillions of options provided for what passes as bread on those shelves!  What about some real bread....!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The choice we have here is illusory.  What value the choice among many tweaks to a denatured product?  This flavour, that cut, the other twist.  How devalued is our sense of food.</p>
<p>To be topically literal about it, I find one, and on some days two, varieties of milk in my supermarket that that are not homogenised.  The staff don&#8217;t even seem to know what un-homogenised is, let alone have any idea of the philosophical, commercial or health reasons I would want to buy unhomogenised milk and not the other stuff.</p>
<p>I once counted over 40 varieties of humus; not one of them claiming to be GE free or organic.  Every one but two being some &#8216;added value&#8217; choice, not a choice of quality or providence for example, no expressions of the essence of good humus.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me started on the zillions of options provided for what passes as bread on those shelves!  What about some real bread&#8230;.!</p>
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		<title>By: StephenR</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38489</link>
		<dc:creator>StephenR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38489</guid>
		<description>Mmm. On Fair TradeI don't know whether to post here or there...Trade Aid has a lengthy FAQ that you might have seen http://www.tradeaid.co.nz/Fair%20Trade/FAQs#price which of course does not erase incidences of whatever-happened-that-was-bad. On quality, I know their chocolate and tea is damn fine though...

The Trade Aid guys are fully aware of the non-free markets that we have and tend to be associated with those lobbying for their repeal, like Oxfam. It's making do with the current situation i'd say...Wouldn't have a problem with properly accountable 'fair trade' (env/labour standards, money going towards building schools, digging wells etc...which presumably aids economic development) when the only other choice may be to sell only the rawest, least profitable materials to Europe etc..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mmm. On Fair TradeI don&#8217;t know whether to post here or there&#8230;Trade Aid has a lengthy FAQ that you might have seen <a href="http://www.tradeaid.co.nz/Fair%20Trade/FAQs#price" >http://www.tradeaid.co.nz/Fair%20Trade/FAQs#price</a> which of course does not erase incidences of whatever-happened-that-was-bad. On quality, I know their chocolate and tea is damn fine though&#8230;</p>
<p>The Trade Aid guys are fully aware of the non-free markets that we have and tend to be associated with those lobbying for their repeal, like Oxfam. It&#8217;s making do with the current situation i&#8217;d say&#8230;Wouldn&#8217;t have a problem with properly accountable &#8216;fair trade&#8217; (env/labour standards, money going towards building schools, digging wells etc&#8230;which presumably aids economic development) when the only other choice may be to sell only the rawest, least profitable materials to Europe etc..</p>
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		<title>By: libertyscott</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38485</link>
		<dc:creator>libertyscott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38485</guid>
		<description>StephenR - The problem with food miles is that while it may be legitimate in terms of air freight, for sea freighted goods the carbon impact is very low compared to the means people actually GET to the shop to buy the food.  I'm happy for there to be an objective measure of carbon footprint of food production and distribution, but to highlight the trunk transport side of things distorts things significantly.  It is a particular fetish in the UK, still.

On fairtrade my blog has a lot of points as to why it is not a good idea, it encourages overproduction, poor quality, is subject to significant gameplaying and there is evidence that most of the fairtrade "premium" is taken by retailers.  There are also likely to be better ways to improve the lot of farmers (and labourers) than messing with price signals.

and yes the earthquake caused by climate change guy, is a graduate of drama school, naturally!

Even - I know about the WTO, having actually been involved a little in negotiations with it.   There is no free trade in food, and that is largely the fault of the EU, Japan and the USA, but the WTO is a structure to advance towards that with no ratcheting back.   If what you claim is true, then presumably those involved can be sued for negligence and recklessness.   

I find you calling me an idiot demonstrates more about you're own inability to put together a cogent structured argument than a series of claims of conspiracies, which look mostly like scaremongering.  Companies want to make products that kill and injure people, and "nobody knows", except you and those who agree with you - even their COMPETITORS don't know, and wouldn't exploit that fact. 

I don't want praise, but you addressed nothing that I said, and didn't suggest any options.  So what is it?  You want to force people to not be able to trade what they produce, force people to not be able to buy what they want?  I have no argument with you if you don't want to use force.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>StephenR - The problem with food miles is that while it may be legitimate in terms of air freight, for sea freighted goods the carbon impact is very low compared to the means people actually GET to the shop to buy the food.  I&#8217;m happy for there to be an objective measure of carbon footprint of food production and distribution, but to highlight the trunk transport side of things distorts things significantly.  It is a particular fetish in the UK, still.</p>
<p>On fairtrade my blog has a lot of points as to why it is not a good idea, it encourages overproduction, poor quality, is subject to significant gameplaying and there is evidence that most of the fairtrade &#8220;premium&#8221; is taken by retailers.  There are also likely to be better ways to improve the lot of farmers (and labourers) than messing with price signals.</p>
<p>and yes the earthquake caused by climate change guy, is a graduate of drama school, naturally!</p>
<p>Even - I know about the WTO, having actually been involved a little in negotiations with it.   There is no free trade in food, and that is largely the fault of the EU, Japan and the USA, but the WTO is a structure to advance towards that with no ratcheting back.   If what you claim is true, then presumably those involved can be sued for negligence and recklessness.   </p>
<p>I find you calling me an idiot demonstrates more about you&#8217;re own inability to put together a cogent structured argument than a series of claims of conspiracies, which look mostly like scaremongering.  Companies want to make products that kill and injure people, and &#8220;nobody knows&#8221;, except you and those who agree with you - even their COMPETITORS don&#8217;t know, and wouldn&#8217;t exploit that fact. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want praise, but you addressed nothing that I said, and didn&#8217;t suggest any options.  So what is it?  You want to force people to not be able to trade what they produce, force people to not be able to buy what they want?  I have no argument with you if you don&#8217;t want to use force.</p>
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		<title>By: BluePeter</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38484</link>
		<dc:creator>BluePeter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:18:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38484</guid>
		<description>&#62;&#62;very phrase that got me a telling off from the blogmeister for breaching Frogblog’s rules of etiquette

Indeed. 

With all due respect to the editors - how can I say this in the gentlest, kindest, non-offensive, carbon neutral manner possible - the application of the etiquette policy seems to be a little....one sided.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;very phrase that got me a telling off from the blogmeister for breaching Frogblog’s rules of etiquette</p>
<p>Indeed. </p>
<p>With all due respect to the editors - how can I say this in the gentlest, kindest, non-offensive, carbon neutral manner possible - the application of the etiquette policy seems to be a little&#8230;.one sided.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Buchanan</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38483</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Buchanan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38483</guid>
		<description>"Food democracy exists, now, it is called choosing what you buy"

That would be true if we all had the income to make the choices we want to make - either to buy particular food or to buy or rent land to grow it. We'd also need to reign in companies who take more than their fair share of the commons - fish for example.  

Yup, it's been a great year for pumpkins. I've also got basil coming out of my ears (I'm about to tuck into sandwich with home made pesto, and with rocket, arugula and tomato out of the garden, the bread and avocado is commercial though, but I'm getting there! By the way does anybody know where to get sunflower seeds for a good oil-producing variety?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Food democracy exists, now, it is called choosing what you buy&#8221;</p>
<p>That would be true if we all had the income to make the choices we want to make - either to buy particular food or to buy or rent land to grow it. We&#8217;d also need to reign in companies who take more than their fair share of the commons - fish for example.  </p>
<p>Yup, it&#8217;s been a great year for pumpkins. I&#8217;ve also got basil coming out of my ears (I&#8217;m about to tuck into sandwich with home made pesto, and with rocket, arugula and tomato out of the garden, the bread and avocado is commercial though, but I&#8217;m getting there! By the way does anybody know where to get sunflower seeds for a good oil-producing variety?)</p>
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		<title>By: BluePeter</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38481</link>
		<dc:creator>BluePeter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:58:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/27/food-democracy/#comment-38481</guid>
		<description>I don't hold utopian views. I prefer pragmatism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t hold utopian views. I prefer pragmatism.</p>
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