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	<title>Comments on: Peak Oil and Food</title>
	<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/</link>
	<description>hopping along the corridors of power</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:27:23 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3</generator>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37832</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Feb 2008 13:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37832</guid>
		<description>fastbike, 

I like your description of oil as "free". That's half the problem, and half the solution. Because oil has been virtually free we have used it like there's no tomorrow. Half the solution to coping without "free" oil is summed up in the adage "waste not want not". 

The other half of the solution is to go back to a very basic fact then think forward from that. One of the most basic facts about crude oil is that it is a useless product until it is cooked. Once it has been cooked the vapours can be condensed at various temperatures to create various useful products which can be used in various ways. It follows logically that the replacement for oil wont be a single this or that. 

The replacements for heating oil already include electricity and geothermal and solar energy.

The replacements for petrol already include diesel and public transport. Diesel only because the greater fuel efficiency of diesel engines extends the life of oil resources till a more permanent alternative can be productionised.

Algae fuels seem to be targetting the jet engine, possibly because the necessary volumes of fuel are smaller than for internal combustion engines.

To drag out another old adage - horses for courses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fastbike, </p>
<p>I like your description of oil as &#8220;free&#8221;. That&#8217;s half the problem, and half the solution. Because oil has been virtually free we have used it like there&#8217;s no tomorrow. Half the solution to coping without &#8220;free&#8221; oil is summed up in the adage &#8220;waste not want not&#8221;. </p>
<p>The other half of the solution is to go back to a very basic fact then think forward from that. One of the most basic facts about crude oil is that it is a useless product until it is cooked. Once it has been cooked the vapours can be condensed at various temperatures to create various useful products which can be used in various ways. It follows logically that the replacement for oil wont be a single this or that. </p>
<p>The replacements for heating oil already include electricity and geothermal and solar energy.</p>
<p>The replacements for petrol already include diesel and public transport. Diesel only because the greater fuel efficiency of diesel engines extends the life of oil resources till a more permanent alternative can be productionised.</p>
<p>Algae fuels seem to be targetting the jet engine, possibly because the necessary volumes of fuel are smaller than for internal combustion engines.</p>
<p>To drag out another old adage - horses for courses.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37760</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37760</guid>
		<description>Nothing strawman about it at all. A simple historical parallel. 110 years ago motorcars were rich mens toys. It would have taken a brave man to assert that these could be scaled up to be successful replacements for commercial horsedrawn vehicles. This didn't really happen until the deisel engine came into common use in the 1920s and 1930s.

It was the mindset that I was attempting to draw attention to, not the actual problem of the day that elicited the comment about gasoline or oats. Trying to revert to horsedrawn transport would create even more of a biofuels crises precisely because of that 40x growth.

Perhaps I should have provided this link to clarify -
http://www.all-creatures.org/nyca/ch-hist-19711000.html

Your last comment is certainly true for the governments earning the royalties and the companies paying those royalties. But most investors are simply gambling on the future price being higher than the current price. Investors need the price to keep rising to make a profit. At $40 barrel it would be raining investors on Wall St. Algae seems to be the only viable alternative for jet fuel at the moment. I'm not sure what alternatives are are being considered for plastics and fertilisers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nothing strawman about it at all. A simple historical parallel. 110 years ago motorcars were rich mens toys. It would have taken a brave man to assert that these could be scaled up to be successful replacements for commercial horsedrawn vehicles. This didn&#8217;t really happen until the deisel engine came into common use in the 1920s and 1930s.</p>
<p>It was the mindset that I was attempting to draw attention to, not the actual problem of the day that elicited the comment about gasoline or oats. Trying to revert to horsedrawn transport would create even more of a biofuels crises precisely because of that 40x growth.</p>
<p>Perhaps I should have provided this link to clarify -<br />
<a href="http://www.all-creatures.org/nyca/ch-hist-19711000.html" >http://www.all-creatures.org/nyca/ch-hist-19711000.html</a></p>
<p>Your last comment is certainly true for the governments earning the royalties and the companies paying those royalties. But most investors are simply gambling on the future price being higher than the current price. Investors need the price to keep rising to make a profit. At $40 barrel it would be raining investors on Wall St. Algae seems to be the only viable alternative for jet fuel at the moment. I&#8217;m not sure what alternatives are are being considered for plastics and fertilisers.</p>
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		<title>By: fastbike</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37758</link>
		<dc:creator>fastbike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:15:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37758</guid>
		<description>Kevyn said
&lt;blockquote&gt;A century ago a similar debate was raging.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

A strawman's argument  and you know it.  Why ?
Over the last 100 years we've had &lt;i&gt;4x population, 40x economic&lt;/i&gt; growth.  We can't go back, but if we go forward we hit the progress trap.

Algae, show me the oil ?  All the figures I've seen to date show it being useful but it won't scale to replace what we get for "free" at the moment.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Iâ€™d put my money on algae if I was an investor&lt;/blockquote&gt;
At the moment all the smart money is actually on oil as there's many years of super profits to be made at anything over $40 per barrel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevyn said</p>
<blockquote><p>A century ago a similar debate was raging.</p></blockquote>
<p>A strawman&#8217;s argument  and you know it.  Why ?<br />
Over the last 100 years we&#8217;ve had <i>4x population, 40x economic</i> growth.  We can&#8217;t go back, but if we go forward we hit the progress trap.</p>
<p>Algae, show me the oil ?  All the figures I&#8217;ve seen to date show it being useful but it won&#8217;t scale to replace what we get for &#8220;free&#8221; at the moment.</p>
<blockquote><p>Iâ€™d put my money on algae if I was an investor</p></blockquote>
<p>At the moment all the smart money is actually on oil as there&#8217;s many years of super profits to be made at anything over $40 per barrel.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevor29</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37749</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor29</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37749</guid>
		<description>Can anyone tell me if natural gas a.k.a. methane a.k.a. CNG is covered by the BioFuels Sales Obligation, or does that only cover liquid fuels?

Trevor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can anyone tell me if natural gas a.k.a. methane a.k.a. CNG is covered by the BioFuels Sales Obligation, or does that only cover liquid fuels?</p>
<p>Trevor.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37693</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37693</guid>
		<description>fastbike, "It is all a question of dollars and cents, this gasoline or oats proposition." A century ago a similar debate was raging. Could cities be freed from disease by replacing the horse with the motortruck and motor omnibuses? Pessimists argued that motors were too expensive and too unreliable to ever challenge the dominance of proven horse-drawn vehicles. Optimists argued that it would only be a matter of time before the cost and reliability of the motor would become superior to that of the horse. Within a decade and a half the optimists were proved right.

I'd put my money on algae if I was an investor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fastbike, &#8220;It is all a question of dollars and cents, this gasoline or oats proposition.&#8221; A century ago a similar debate was raging. Could cities be freed from disease by replacing the horse with the motortruck and motor omnibuses? Pessimists argued that motors were too expensive and too unreliable to ever challenge the dominance of proven horse-drawn vehicles. Optimists argued that it would only be a matter of time before the cost and reliability of the motor would become superior to that of the horse. Within a decade and a half the optimists were proved right.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d put my money on algae if I was an investor.</p>
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		<title>By: fastbike</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37688</link>
		<dc:creator>fastbike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 13:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37688</guid>
		<description>"What about recycling and non-rural biofuel, like landfill waste, algal and so on."

Two words:
- scalability
- yield</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What about recycling and non-rural biofuel, like landfill waste, algal and so on.&#8221;</p>
<p>Two words:<br />
- scalability<br />
- yield</p>
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		<title>By: bikemike</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37686</link>
		<dc:creator>bikemike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 10:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37686</guid>
		<description>I guess we are talking cropping biofuels, on productive land?
What about recycling and non-rural biofuel, like landfill waste, algal and so on.  They may not be cost-effective yet (?) but they don't pose the same competitive risk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess we are talking cropping biofuels, on productive land?<br />
What about recycling and non-rural biofuel, like landfill waste, algal and so on.  They may not be cost-effective yet (?) but they don&#8217;t pose the same competitive risk.</p>
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		<title>By: toad</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37679</link>
		<dc:creator>toad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:16:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37679</guid>
		<description>Moulwarp said: &lt;i&gt;No subsidies, no biofuel humanitarian disaster.&lt;/i&gt;

Mouldy, first sensible thing based on ereal evidence I can recall you ever saying on this blog.  Keep it up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moulwarp said: <i>No subsidies, no biofuel humanitarian disaster.</i></p>
<p>Mouldy, first sensible thing based on ereal evidence I can recall you ever saying on this blog.  Keep it up!</p>
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		<title>By: Mouldwarp</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37678</link>
		<dc:creator>Mouldwarp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 07:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37678</guid>
		<description>- "With global oil production relatively stagnant as the demand for more oil from Asia and the Middle East continues to grow, biofuels production has been plugging some of the gap."

That's entirely incorrect. Biofuels have had such an impact purely and simply because of the subsidies thrown at them by politicians. No subsidies, no biofuel humanitarian disaster.


Joy,

- "As a people, a nation, we need to be mindful of the basics, for our own communities and endeavour to help promote healthy global policies."

The problem is that biofuels was touted as just the sort of initiative you describe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>- &#8220;With global oil production relatively stagnant as the demand for more oil from Asia and the Middle East continues to grow, biofuels production has been plugging some of the gap.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s entirely incorrect. Biofuels have had such an impact purely and simply because of the subsidies thrown at them by politicians. No subsidies, no biofuel humanitarian disaster.</p>
<p>Joy,</p>
<p>- &#8220;As a people, a nation, we need to be mindful of the basics, for our own communities and endeavour to help promote healthy global policies.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem is that biofuels was touted as just the sort of initiative you describe.</p>
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		<title>By: fastbike</title>
		<link>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37673</link>
		<dc:creator>fastbike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 04:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/02/12/peak-oil-and-food/#comment-37673</guid>
		<description>Hey frog, you missed the most interesting item in that ASPO bulletin.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;b&gt;Quote of the Weekâ€¦a letter from the Oil &#38; Gas Journal, Feb 4th, 2008&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;i&gt;World Decline Rate:&lt;/i&gt;
â€œThe January 17th 2008 press release by Cambridge Energy Research Associatesâ€¦reported the worldâ€™s oil supplies were to rise to 112 million b/d by 2017. This rise is in spite of CERAâ€™s other conclusion that the worldâ€™s oil fields are declining in capacity at the average rate of 4.5%/year. These conclusions are clearly suspect."
â€œAlthough it is unlikely that global oil production is likely to drop significantly in the next few years, major sustainable increases are equally unlikely. Given the current global production of 86 million b/d and CERAâ€™s 4.5% decline, global capacity would have to increase by 7.5 million b/d each year for the next 10 years to reach 112 million b/d. This is a total of 75 million b/d of new capacity in 10 years. Even excluding the effect of declining rates, achieving 112 million b/d within a decade represents a massive leap of 26 million b/d in global capacity."
&lt;b&gt;â€œTo put this in perspective, 75 million b/d of new capacity is the equivalent of eight new Saudi Arabias or 14 new Irans in just 10 years. &lt;/b&gt;Considering the reality that Saudi Arabia, with 25% of the worldâ€™s best proven reserves, is already investing $50 billion to increase its production capacity by 2 million b/d, where does CERA expect the additional 24 million b/d of production capacity to come from, let alone the replacement for the 51 million b/d of declines?â€?
Dr. Moujahed Al-Husseini, GeoArabia; Manama, Bahrain
Dr. Sadad Al-Husseini, Saudi Aramco (retired); Dharan
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
If it wasn't so serious it would be hilarious.  Are there clowns asleep at the wheel, or is there some ulterior motive behind the reckless disregard ?.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey frog, you missed the most interesting item in that ASPO bulletin.</p>
<blockquote><p>
<b>Quote of the Weekâ€¦a letter from the Oil &amp; Gas Journal, Feb 4th, 2008</b><br />
<i>World Decline Rate:</i><br />
â€œThe January 17th 2008 press release by Cambridge Energy Research Associatesâ€¦reported the worldâ€™s oil supplies were to rise to 112 million b/d by 2017. This rise is in spite of CERAâ€™s other conclusion that the worldâ€™s oil fields are declining in capacity at the average rate of 4.5%/year. These conclusions are clearly suspect.&#8221;<br />
â€œAlthough it is unlikely that global oil production is likely to drop significantly in the next few years, major sustainable increases are equally unlikely. Given the current global production of 86 million b/d and CERAâ€™s 4.5% decline, global capacity would have to increase by 7.5 million b/d each year for the next 10 years to reach 112 million b/d. This is a total of 75 million b/d of new capacity in 10 years. Even excluding the effect of declining rates, achieving 112 million b/d within a decade represents a massive leap of 26 million b/d in global capacity.&#8221;<br />
<b>â€œTo put this in perspective, 75 million b/d of new capacity is the equivalent of eight new Saudi Arabias or 14 new Irans in just 10 years. </b>Considering the reality that Saudi Arabia, with 25% of the worldâ€™s best proven reserves, is already investing $50 billion to increase its production capacity by 2 million b/d, where does CERA expect the additional 24 million b/d of production capacity to come from, let alone the replacement for the 51 million b/d of declines?â€?<br />
Dr. Moujahed Al-Husseini, GeoArabia; Manama, Bahrain<br />
Dr. Sadad Al-Husseini, Saudi Aramco (retired); Dharan
</p></blockquote>
<p>If it wasn&#8217;t so serious it would be hilarious.  Are there clowns asleep at the wheel, or is there some ulterior motive behind the reckless disregard ?.</p>
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