by frog
The big political event tomorrow in New Zealand will be Waitangi Day, but I get the feeling that political science junkies have all got one eye overseas on the United States Super (Duper) Tuesday Primaries – and especially the Obama-Clinton race.
To many New Zealand eyes it’s fascinating that political parties would let this messy, scarring, costly debate be played out in the national consciousness for months at a time. So much easier for the party to get together and plot out a new leader and shadow cabinet, arrange the numbers, then tap the incumbent on the shoulder and give her or him the bad news.
It’s interesting that the Greens are unusual among political parties in New Zealand in that they run the equivalent of a primary to decide their candidate list for the election. It’s limited to Green Party members, which is not the case with many US state primaries, and it doesn’t involved $40 million advertising budgets or televised nationwide debates. But it has contributed to the Greens being light on Pam Corkery/Mark Blumsky type MPs.
Published in Campaign | Justice & Democracy by frog on Tue, February 5th, 2008
Tags: Clinton, list selection, Obama, primaries, Super Duper Tuesday
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
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Frog
If the Greens “run the equivalent of a primary to decide their candidate list for the election” then do you not think it is both deceitful and anti democratic to “engineer” Nandor out of the house and then have the next candidate (selected by the party) stand aside for Russel Norman?
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do you really want the spotlight turnes on the recent green party leadership contest..?
and you are extolling that (dirty) process over an open vote..?
whoar..
got a feckin’ nerve..!..haven’t you..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Big bro: Do you really think Nandor wouldn’t object had he been engineered out of the house?
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ari…
no..he wouldn’t..!
(for a raft of reasons..)
(and in the interests of accurate reporting..
the last time i saw/spoke with nandor..some months ago..
..he told me he thought norman ‘would be/make a good green party leader’..
(and i had/have no reason to doubt the sincerity/honesty of his words..)
..(the ‘pull’ of nandors’ family/desires/for different activism..also have their part to play..)
but none of that alters the facts of what happened in the leadership battle..
..and the ‘manouvering’/pressures to get nandor out..and norman ‘in’ also can’t be denied..
but the reality for greens is..that this is a ‘done-deal’..
nandor is going/gone..
so..who is there..?..to be male co-leader..?
save norman..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Ari
“Do you really think Nandor wouldn’t object had he been engineered out of the house?”
I have no idea if Nandor would object or not, but then that is not the point.
Frog said that the list is decided by the Green party members and as such any alteration to the list in an effort to get a lower ranked member into the house is undemocratic.
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BB & Phil, nothing can be “engineered” – the process is governed by the Electoral Act.
It is Nandor’s decision, and his alone, whether he stands down from Parliament before the election. As far as I know, he hasn’t decided to do so.
If he were to do so, the candidates on the 2005 Green Party list (Mike Ward) become an MP, just as Nandor did himself when Rod died.
For Russel to fill such a vacancy would require both Mike Ward and the next candidate on the 2005 Party List, Catherine Delahunty, to decline to take up the vacancy. Again it is their decisions, and theirs alone, under the Electoral Act whether they take up such a vacancy or stand aside to allow Russel to enter Parliament. The Party has no say in the matter.
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Toad
I feel a Tui billboard coming on.
Look, I have no problem with Russel taking Nandors seat in the house but please do not tell us that these other two (or three if you include Nandor) will stand aside of their own volition.
The longer the Greens stay in coalition with Labour the more they start to take on the worst of Labour’s spin doctors traits, be different, tell the truth.
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BB The point Toad made is a real one. The Green Party does not control the actions of the individuals who make it up. Nobody is going to be told what to do. The order of people’s standing on the list is what it is, the individual decisions of 4 people stand between Russel and a seat in parliament and those individuals have their own ambitions and reasons and considerations to make. Likely too, they have real jobs and real reasons they would NOT want to become MPs this close to the election. The answers that they come up with are going to be THEIR answers, not the Green Party’s answers. Nor do I see any particular value in forecasting their decisions or gainsaying them. They’re pretty good people, or they wouldn’t be where they are on the list. Any of them will serve well as MP,
respectfully
BJ
BJ
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well..as for them having ‘real jobs..
mike ward just got trounced in the nelson mayoralty race..
he’d be at a bit of a loose end..
and as for delahaunty..?
her ambition enters the room slightly ahead of her..
and she would crawl over almost anything to be an mp..
so..a ‘spontaneously ‘un-dealed’ ‘own volition’ from either..
is highly unlikely..
what’s the next ‘spin’..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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big bro et al:
You posts make it very obvious that not knowing the facts is absolutely no barrier to your spouting forth!
The GREEN PARTY and its members take/s democracy and representation seriously in everything it/we do/does.
All potential candidates for a General Election (who are usually well known among Greens) are asked to give detailed information about who they are, and about what they believe and what they each have to offer.
EVERY member of the Green Party (who has usually been following what is going on and already knows “who is who”) is given ALL this information and is asked to rank candidates in his or her individual order of preference.
(It takes me several days, and some consulting with others, to do this ranking to my satisfaction.)
These rankings (by every individual member) are collated as the basic Party List prepared before each NZ Election.
We don’t have a “big brother” or “big sister” who overrides this process.
Nor do we have someone who can overturn the resulting List.
As for your other bs:
Nandor is NOT leaving Parliament because our current Male Co Leader is outside Parliament. Nandor is leaving because he feels that he has “done his bit”, and because he “has a life” outside a place that many Greens see as “Toxic” because of the way in which some people behave there.
Russell Norman is doing a good job as Co Leader where he is … outside Parliament.
As Toad has said, those higher up the list (and who the Greens consider will make good MPs) will make decisions for themselves!
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Welcome back, eredwen. We’ve missed you – where have you been?
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eredwen
As a matter of fact this thread has been highly educational re the process for selecting the ranking order of the Green party list, I actually think it is a very good system.
However as I have already said that is not the point, Phil seems to have some very good contacts and on this I am prepared to take his word, Nandor is being pushed and those higher up the list are also being pressured to stand aside to let him enter the house.
If Russel is doing such a good job as co leader (why do we need co leaders in todays enlightened world anyway?) then why the big push to get him into the house?, the facts are that Russel will continue to be irrelevant as long as he stays outside of parliament, you only have to read his increasingly bizarre attacks on anything to do with the Nat’s or the Yanks to appreciate this.
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toad,
I’ve been hovering around in the background some of the time, but, like others of the now-absent former frog blog followers, I have found the “combative”, “dismissive” and generally “point scoring” tone of the place too toxic to enter …
.. and apart from the tone, much of what passes for comment now is hardly worth the effort to read, much less to reply to!
eredwen
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BB
What big push? Phil THINKS that they will step aside but has no real information that this is actually going to happen. There’s no visible pressure for this to happen coming from within the party, only speculation from without. Maybe he’s right,,, it is possible if they themselves decide to do so but his description of their circumstances would not lead me to be reading up on how to behave in parliament, were my name Russel.
However they decide however, is up to them. The party itself, while not disinterested in the outcome, is no longer much connected with it.
respectfully
BJ
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Aww shucks Eredwen… I didn’t think I left THAT many bloodstains on the furniture.
Did you go skiing somewhere?
respectfully
BJ
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big bro,
Having read your posts here, and elsewhere, I find it very hard to take you seriously, however, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt one time!
phil “knows what goes on” … from his perspective.
However, phil has his own reasons for “stirring” (which is what he is doing on frogblog … Right Phil?)
Nandor’s reasons for leaving Parliament are genuine.
(Rod Donald’s untimely death has caused some MP’s to have to stay in Parliament longer than they had intended, not shorter!)
“In today’s enlightened world (?!) …
The Greens, acknowledge differences between the sexes, (in life experiences, perspectives, upbringing, etc …) and have male and female co-appointees, in all major positions in the Party. This gives better representation, and also has the advantage of sharing the workload,
but above all we know that in any group, male and female points of view will always be represented. (Don’t knock it until you try it!)
I assume you didn’t miss the fact that when Rod Donald died so suddenly, the Green Party still had a Leader who just kept on going?
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Not wanting to go off-topic too much, but we stopped acknowledging inherent differences between the sexes as a way of promoting equality – the Green co-leadership would seem to sacrifice the potential for ‘the best’ for the symbolism of having a both a woman and a man. This logic would make discrimination justifiable…no? Having diversity in a party is healthy, but at the cost of competence perhaps? (not implying anyone is incompetent).
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bj
No! No skiing for me this northern winter (because of a reluctance to contribute to oil depletion and global warming … well supported by a dearth of cash!)
I’m serious about my criticism of the tone of frogblog.
I suspect that you possibly didn’t notice it bj ? …. As a former New Yorker (“you can take the boy out of New York but you can’t take New York out of the boy” type of thing) your “skin” may not be sensitive enough, nor your Kiwi-English tuned enough (?) to feel the “dripping blood” ?
I think it is also a gender thing … though I notice (and mourn) the disappearance of several excellent regular (male) contributors …
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StephenR
Even in the context of having a “better” (and I doubt seriously that this could be shown to be true except in retrospect) representation by having 2 co-leaders who happen to be the same gender. I have learned as I have aged, that we (males and females) think differently. Not necessarily reaching different conclusions but definitely reaching conclusions differently.
The advantage of having both logic engines going at the same time is pretty clear to me. It’d have to be a pretty poor representative of one of those genders to overcome the advantage, and I think most of our people are better than that. I’ve seen other methods, I LIKE this one. I really really do.
respectfully
BJ
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Eredwen
Of course I don’t notice it… at least not much. Our right-wing guests have occasionally triggered some fairly pointed criticisms (hence the blood) but the regular postings here aren’t all that nasty… I do miss fastbike and some of the others.
Leads to an interesting question. I wonder what percentage of folks on the politically oriented forums are female overall…. because I think you are quite correct. There is a gender difference.
There are other aspects to that difference too… When I visit the Green Forum I notice the gender participation seems more even there.
Here on Frogblog is a bit of the party that faces outwards… there’s another group that faces in… I don’t know the answer to making participation more even… or even if it should be attempted. It reminds me of something by C.J. Cherryh – in particular her series “The Faded Sun” – It is Science Fiction, but it seems relevant. She writes a good story.
respectfully
BJ
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eredwen said…
“..However, phil has his own reasons for “stirring? (which is what he is doing on frogblog … Right Phil?)..”
yes eredwen..i want an effective parliamentary wing of the environmental movement..
not just more of what we have had until now..
and i like to think my arguments/points are not without their logic/reason..
but hey..!..whatever..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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what do you want eredwen..?
a ‘polite’ tea party/private club….?
can’t you see..!..that is/has been one of the main problems..
and how we have ended up with a geriatric green party..
all bent over..
staring at their own navels..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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cani suggest a ‘book club’..?
petanque..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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StephenR.
“we stopped acknowledging inherent differences between the sexes as a way of promoting equality – the Green co-leadership would seem to sacrifice the potential for ‘the best’ for the symbolism of having a both a woman and a man. This logic would make discrimination justifiable…no? Having diversity in a party is healthy, but at the cost of competence perhaps? (not implying anyone is incompetent).
1. It is not “symbolism”.
The Greens do have “the best”.
We want the best available woman and the best available man to work together (and apart) for each of our (many) combined roles.
2. “We stopped acknowledging inherent differences between the sexes as a way of promoting equality”.
This does not mean that there are no inherent differences.
The two greens chosen bring different skills and insights to the combined role, these are not necessarily gender based, but are a part of the reason that each person has been chosen.
The fact that there is another highly skilled person (or two) waiting in the wings (presumably doing something useful already) may be a problem for that waiting person, but it is not a problem for the Party. This is no different than one or two people waiting for a turn at any job.
While they are “waiting” (if indeed they are) there are other exciting roles they can fill … in this case, such as being an MP!
The results for the Party are better if both work together.
In the Green’s case Jeanette was number one and Rod Number two on our party list. You’d be pretty hard pressed to say that any two men or two women would have been better.
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ok eredwen..
so..mike ward to replace nandor then..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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Hi phil,
I can’t speak for your area, but that is not the impression I get in this part of the World.
However, if a lot of the volunteer work for the Greens is done by older people because they have more time to contribute, this can be used to the advantage of giving busier younger people the chance to take on meaningful roles in the Party unburdened by the “chores” that often go with such roles!
Having said that, I don’t understand how your contributions here help towards what you want to see happen …
eredwen
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gee..!..maybe i should ‘stop’..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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hi again phil,
You are presuming that Mike Ward would want the job now.
What I DO know is that we can’t/mustn’t mess with the rules without following proper procedures. Any changes to be made must be thought through seriously and made appropriately.
Nandor has yet to give a date for when he is leaving …
I always work on the assumption that the Greens (politicians, adminstration and the Party) know what they are doing, and do it well.
I am yet to be disappointed.
eredwen
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phil,
Don’t do that. I’d miss your raves!
(But currently, you could turn the “tone down” button a bit. )
e
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i actually decided about a week ago that my views on historical matters are widely known..
so i am going to focus on the upcoming election..
and am now sharpening/exercising my claws/fangs over at kiwiblog..
(and if you think the tone here is ‘rough’..?
whoar..!
you’d better stay away from there..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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i play ‘get the natty/rightie..!’..
and have a ‘take no prisoners’ policy..
i just leave them where they fall..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
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“how your contributions help towards what you want to see happen”
Please share, sounds like Phil being told to quiet down as he is ruining what is trying to be acheived.
Is there a secret agenda at the Greens?
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# Roman Says:
February 7th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
> Is there a secret agenda at the Greens?
Do you think we’d tell you if there was?
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bjchip Says:
February 7th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
> Leads to an interesting question. I wonder what percentage of folks on the politically oriented forums are female overall…. because I think you are quite correct. There is a gender difference.
Yeah, I’d been wondering if I was the only female left on Frogblog after Eredwen disappeared…
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Roman:
Referring to my comment: “how your contributions help towards what you want to see happen?, you ask,
“Is there a secret agenda at the Greens?”
………………………………………..
I reply (or, as you say, “share”):
Forget your conspiracy theories !!
I believe that the Greens would be the most “open” Political Party in Aotearoa NZ.
My comment was that of a long-time Green advising a frogblog friend about the best way to get HIS message heard by other Greens.
OK?
eredwen
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kahikatea,
I’m back online today, and pleased to see that you are here.
Over the holiday period I was finding the content of too many posts, trite and manipulative … the posturing, put downs and lack of positive acknowledgment from some of our so called “guests” disturbing, (and a serious waste of space), so, reluctantly, “I left them to it”.
I’ve been in contact with another female frogblog contributor, and plan to contact others …
eredwen
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eredwen, That seems to be a certain type of university student. They always strike me as being know-nothing know-it-all’s trying to teach their grandmothers to suck eggs. That is one particular form of stupidity that I don’t suffer from. Those of us with high IQs and low EQs have our own peculiar forms of stupidity with which we can annoy everybody else without resorting to in your face arrogance.
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I’ve been missed BUT fastbike is lurkin … LOL
Hey, talking about the internal Green selection process, I see the Chch Central electorate ran a fantastic candidate selection meeting last night.
And all of this chosen by grass roots members – not engineered by some power seeking clique.
There were 3 strong contenders – just a shame the electoral rules do not allow co-candidates to stand to stand in a general election !
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