Comments on: The ‘right to beat your child’ petition http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/ hopping along the corridors of power Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:48:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: fastbike http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-37019 fastbike Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:04:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-37019 BB said on January 29th, 2008 at 2:13 pm <blockquote>Given that <b>all</b> Green party members are communists or former communists</blockquote> BB then said on January 30th, 2008 at 8:31 pm <blockquote>For the record I do not think <b>all</b> Greens are communists</blockquote> Make up your mind BB. You either mean one thing or the other, or else you are here trolling. Now I will have to take everything you say here as likely to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_%28politics%29" rel="nofollow">flip flop</a> in a later post ;( BB said on January 29th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

Given that all Green party members are communists or former communists

BB then said on January 30th, 2008 at 8:31 pm

For the record I do not think all Greens are communists

Make up your mind BB. You either mean one thing or the other, or else you are here trolling. Now I will have to take everything you say here as likely to flip flop in a later post ;(

]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-37001 big bro Wed, 30 Jan 2008 07:31:00 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-37001 jingyang I wondered how long it would take for somebody to reply to that comment. For the record I do not think all Greens are communists, (although I do worry about the few MP's and aspiring MP's who have communist links) I made that comment in frustration at the labeling of all those who oppose S59 as child beaters. I merely used it as an example of the lies and half truth that surround this nasty little bill. Not all Greens are communists and not all those who oppose the S59 bill are child beaters (or pedophiles) I wish everybody could remember that. jingyang

I wondered how long it would take for somebody to reply to that comment.

For the record I do not think all Greens are communists, (although I do worry about the few MP’s and aspiring MP’s who have communist links) I made that comment in frustration at the labeling of all those who oppose S59 as child beaters.

I merely used it as an example of the lies and half truth that surround this nasty little bill.

Not all Greens are communists and not all those who oppose the S59 bill are child beaters (or pedophiles) I wish everybody could remember that.

]]> By: jingyang http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36996 jingyang Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:44:04 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36996 BigBro you say: "Given that all Green party members are communists or former communists do you not think that this is something you should tell the voters?" I am a Green party member, and have never been a communist. Therefore your statement is a lie. So, you also say: "Why do you guys insist on telling lies "... Mr Pot meet Mr Kettle. Wide sweeping statements such the above quote from you are really not useful at all, and only serve to undermine any other arguments you may have. Please try to rise above the sophomoric name-calling. BigBro you say:

“Given that all Green party members are communists or former communists do you not think that this is something you should tell the voters?”

I am a Green party member, and have never been a communist.

Therefore your statement is a lie.

So, you also say: “Why do you guys insist on telling lies “…

Mr Pot meet Mr Kettle.

Wide sweeping statements such the above quote from you are really not useful at all, and only serve to undermine any other arguments you may have. Please try to rise above the sophomoric name-calling.

]]> By: bliss http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36977 bliss Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:22:53 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36977 Big Bro Assault or not if I saw you walking, knowingly or unknowingly, into danger (into path of bus, off of a high place) I will grab you and push you out of the way if I possibly can. If anybody has a problem with that, tough! S59 never gave me the right to smack, slap, hit or beat my child. It gave me a defence if I was so charged. But *only* in the case of a child. In the above case of me saving Big Bro from accident or suicide I am not sure what defence I would have, and I do not care. But it would be the same for Big Bro as for my child. That is how it should be. peace W Big Bro

Assault or not if I saw you walking, knowingly or unknowingly, into danger (into path of bus, off of a high place) I will grab you and push you out of the way if I possibly can.

If anybody has a problem with that, tough!

S59 never gave me the right to smack, slap, hit or beat my child. It gave me a defence if I was so charged. But *only* in the case of a child.

In the above case of me saving Big Bro from accident or suicide I am not sure what defence I would have, and I do not care. But it would be the same for Big Bro as for my child. That is how it should be.

peace
W

]]> By: LivingZim http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36976 LivingZim Tue, 29 Jan 2008 23:13:06 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36976 They way I and a lot of other people see it is that there should not be laws in place that prevent parents from disciplining their children with a smack. The parents themselves should not use excessive force when disciplining their children. I have had this conversation a number of times with people from the Zimbabwean and other migrant communities who see a need for that kind of discipline. How did we justify this? We took a look at the kids who a born and raised here and those who came from overseas after having experienced their sort of culture and type of discipline – majority of the children from migrant communities are more well behaved and have respect for their elders and themselves. The children of migrant communities who were born or moved here early in life do not seem to have the same morals as would be expected of them in the homelands and seem to have less morals and are rebellious. These changes in behaviour are scaring parents but at the same time, what can they do. They are after all in a foreign land thus they must conform to not only the rules and regulations of the land they live in but their way of life as well. <a href="http://livingzimbabwe.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Living Zimbabwe</a> They way I and a lot of other people see it is that there should not be laws in place that prevent parents from disciplining their children with a smack. The parents themselves should not use excessive force when disciplining their children. I have had this conversation a number of times with people from the Zimbabwean and other migrant communities who see a need for that kind of discipline. How did we justify this? We took a look at the kids who a born and raised here and those who came from overseas after having experienced their sort of culture and type of discipline – majority of the children from migrant communities are more well behaved and have respect for their elders and themselves. The children of migrant communities who were born or moved here early in life do not seem to have the same morals as would be expected of them in the homelands and seem to have less morals and are rebellious. These changes in behaviour are scaring parents but at the same time, what can they do. They are after all in a foreign land thus they must conform to not only the rules and regulations of the land they live in but their way of life as well.

Living Zimbabwe

]]> By: andrew http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36972 andrew Tue, 29 Jan 2008 22:08:43 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36972 a lite smack! well that sounds so fresh & modern! you could just market that in a snazzy sipper bottle. not at all threatening. <blockquote>Thus s59, as interpreted legally rather by common usage, makes it an offence to restrain a child about to dart out into the road or to take a child’s hand while crossing the road unless with the child’s consent.</blockquote> i believe the amended legislation has that situation covered, although i doubt the truth of your view that the judicial fraternity ever interpreted the law that way. <blockquote> The polls that suggested 80% of the population were against the repeal of S59 Are 80% of the population right wing nutcases?</blockquote> no barnsley bill, i was obviously referring to the people who used children to collect signatures as right-wing nutcases. identify with them if you will. <blockquote>The election will be all about the EFB, S59, tax cuts and crime,</blockquote> these seem to be winning issues for the greens except for tax cuts. i suspect national will be annoyed that tax cuts is relegated to one issue among many. a lite smack! well that sounds so fresh & modern! you could just market that in a snazzy sipper bottle. not at all threatening.

Thus s59, as interpreted legally rather by common usage, makes it an offence to restrain a child about to dart out into the road or to take a child’s hand while crossing the road unless with the child’s consent.

i believe the amended legislation has that situation covered, although i doubt the truth of your view that the judicial fraternity ever interpreted the law that way.

The polls that suggested 80% of the population were against the repeal of S59
Are 80% of the population right wing nutcases?

no barnsley bill, i was obviously referring to the people who used children to collect signatures as right-wing nutcases.
identify with them if you will.

The election will be all about the EFB, S59, tax cuts and crime,

these seem to be winning issues for the greens except for tax cuts. i suspect national will be annoyed that tax cuts is relegated to one issue among many.

]]> By: dbuckley http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36965 dbuckley Tue, 29 Jan 2008 19:53:55 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36965 psycho_milt says: "<i>...nobody knows what the law is until it gets taken through a whole lot of courts and a lot of precedent is created</i>" Thats the way English law system works, and has served us (and a multitudes of other jurisdictions) well for centuries. It's nothing unique to S59, or to the current NZ government. The real frustration is with legislation that doesn't get firmed out with precedent. The Privacy Act is one such law; there have been very few substantive judgments (and thus a lack of precedent) on virtually anything the Privacy Act says, so it is still a total mystery what it means. Anything that looked like it was going to involve a decent row with a precedent at the end of it has been settled out of court... psycho_milt says: “…nobody knows what the law is until it gets taken through a whole lot of courts and a lot of precedent is created”

Thats the way English law system works, and has served us (and a multitudes of other jurisdictions) well for centuries. It’s nothing unique to S59, or to the current NZ government.

The real frustration is with legislation that doesn’t get firmed out with precedent. The Privacy Act is one such law; there have been very few substantive judgments (and thus a lack of precedent) on virtually anything the Privacy Act says, so it is still a total mystery what it means. Anything that looked like it was going to involve a decent row with a precedent at the end of it has been settled out of court…

]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36962 big bro Tue, 29 Jan 2008 18:37:23 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36962 The fact that this topic is still able to generate a heated debate means that despite the plans of Clark and Bradford it is still going to be a huge election issue, I did warn you that the public will not forget. The election will be all about the EFB, S59, tax cuts and crime, on all of these issues the Greens are in bed with Labour and that is not a good sign for the future of the party, you have eight months to divorce yourself from Labour or face oblivion. The fact that this topic is still able to generate a heated debate means that despite the plans of Clark and Bradford it is still going to be a huge election issue, I did warn you that the public will not forget.

The election will be all about the EFB, S59, tax cuts and crime, on all of these issues the Greens are in bed with Labour and that is not a good sign for the future of the party, you have eight months to divorce yourself from Labour or face oblivion.

]]> By: psycho_milt http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36961 psycho_milt Tue, 29 Jan 2008 17:51:18 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36961 <i>...I don’t accept that you make laws by letting the police decide what is and isn’t illegal. That IS Parliament’s job. This is not uncommon here in NZ. As a way to implement a “rule of lawâ€? however, it sucks swamp water.</i> An excellent summing up of why this bill was crap. After all the "swamp water" of emotive bollocks about child beating has been waded through, here's the nub of why they shouldn't have voted it into law. <i>We just did the same thing with the EFB for crissakes. The Electoral Commission gets to decide all manner of complex stuff and nobody knows what the law is until it gets taken through a whole lot of courts and a lot of precedent is created.</i> An equally-excellent summing up of why <i>that</i> bill was crap. Same approach of leaving some other poor sods to figure out who's going to be arrested and who isn't. That's twice in one year - so why would anyone really want to give these incompetents another 3 years in charge of the legislature? …I don’t accept that you make laws by letting the police decide what is and isn’t illegal. That IS Parliament’s job. This is not uncommon here in NZ. As a way to implement a “rule of lawâ€? however, it sucks swamp water.

An excellent summing up of why this bill was crap. After all the “swamp water” of emotive bollocks about child beating has been waded through, here’s the nub of why they shouldn’t have voted it into law.

We just did the same thing with the EFB for crissakes. The Electoral Commission gets to decide all manner of complex stuff and nobody knows what the law is until it gets taken through a whole lot of courts and a lot of precedent is created.

An equally-excellent summing up of why that bill was crap. Same approach of leaving some other poor sods to figure out who’s going to be arrested and who isn’t. That’s twice in one year - so why would anyone really want to give these incompetents another 3 years in charge of the legislature?

]]> By: will http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36958 will Tue, 29 Jan 2008 11:10:33 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2008/01/29/the-%e2%80%98right-to-beat-your-child%e2%80%99-petition/#comment-36958 <blockquote>Don’t believe FAMILY FIST’s propaganda - they are being economical with the truth for their own ends.</blockquote> That's pretty patronising. I haven't been presented with their petition, I haven't read it, and I haven't signed it. <blockquote>Reasonable force is permissible to prevent offensive or disruptive behaviour by a child occcurring or continuing under the amendment agreed to by Parliament.</blockquote> Who defines "reasonable force"? Who defines "disruptive behaviour"? In BJ's words <i>"I submit to you that simple and clear laws are a hell of a lot better than what comes out of this parliament"</i>.

Don’t believe FAMILY FIST’s propaganda - they are being economical with the truth for their own ends.

That’s pretty patronising. I haven’t been presented with their petition, I haven’t read it, and I haven’t signed it.

Reasonable force is permissible to prevent offensive or disruptive behaviour by a child occcurring or continuing under the amendment agreed to by Parliament.

Who defines “reasonable force”? Who defines “disruptive behaviour”? In BJ’s words “I submit to you that simple and clear laws are a hell of a lot better than what comes out of this parliament”.

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