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In The Adventure of English Melvyn Bragg concludes that the historical evidence leads to exactly the opposite conclusion. American English is closer to the English imported by the puritans than is the case for England’s modern English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_English

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“On October 18, 2004, Arthur Shelton, a self described Christian and Eagle Scout, murdered his friend and roommate, Larry Hooper, because Hooper didn’t believe in God.”

http://www.parallelpac.org/murder.htm
http://weeklywire.com/ww/06-07-99/austin_pols_feature1.html

It isn’t usually a murder… people get fired, their lives are ruined, their property is wrecked and the community makes a real effort to drive them out. Murder is an extreme. The people involved are nutcases, through and through… they exist everywhere all the time… but the response of the police is the place which leads you back to fear if you are one of the “black sheep”

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/25659

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

Hell… even I had some trouble with the Boy Scouts. I adopted the protective colouration of a non-denominational church and played nice.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/downey_24_4.htm

The point I was making is and remains, there is a widespread willful ignorance in the USA, and it is making Thomas Jefferson’s little ditty….

“A society which wishes to be ignorant and free, desires what is not and which never can be” – Well that’s almost right anyhow…

look positively prescient.

respectfully
BJ

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http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/050802/2religion.htm

http://pressherald.mainetoday.com/story.php?id=159590&ac=PHnws

Oh, and this one is rich: “Can Parents Be Atheists?” http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,877155,00.html

http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/02/03/atheist-discrimination-suit-sett led.htm

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/25659

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/StateConstitutions.htm

Atheism is also “historically” linked to communism (hence why the “under God” was added to the US Pledge of Allegiance in 1952). Being an atheist is “unamerican” as Americans say (one of the most absurd words ever coined).

And lastly, this video is most revealing of the whole environment: http://www.atheistnation.net/video/?video/00420/atheist/20-20-atheist- discrimination/

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don’t worry, i’ll be your authority.

however, are you sure you aren’t exaggerating a smidgen about america? i’m in contact with a number of americans who still live there, & while it sounds like they have oppressive childhoods in the redneck states, i’ve never heard of any of them as adults suffering any discrimination let alone living in fear for their atheism or other religious beliefs

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However, as an American (aiming to emigrate to NZ in the next couple years), the idea that you have “more liberty” choosing a religion– you’ve GOT to be kidding me, right? I’m an atheist and I learned very quickly to keep my mouth SHUT on everything from homosexuality, race, evolution (and science in general), gun violence, and of course, anything remotely “religious.” I have a job I would like to KEEP, thankyouverymuch. Hell, even John Key would never get very far as a politician here because he’s expressed a more agnostic attitude toward God and an afterlife (and no, that is NOT an exaggeration).

And I can show you shanty towns and things that would shock the sensibilities of most people in other developed nations just walking a couple blocks down my road and in plenty of places here in Memphis, Tennessee (not to mention Dallas and pre-Katrina New Orleans and also Nashville). And I know the difference between what “low income areas” look like in NZ and how much worse they are in the US by comparison.

And big money does affect the outcome of elections in a joke of a two-party system where “third” parties are ignored and the only “liberal” politicians who get any media coverage are to the RIGHT of even most conservatives in New Zealand!!

As far as Huckabee goes, he knows how to milk the religious nuts– and there is a LOT of money being poured in all that by the likes of Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and a whole host of other religious nuts (imagine the Destiny Party in NZ, except that they actually have a lot of supporters). Politicians in the US do NOT represent US citizens– they represent lobbyists. I pay you large sums of money for your campaign– ok, now its quid pro quo time… (I think the EFB is one of the best insurances against the sort of anti-democratic streak that has been running through the US for at least the past three decades).

That being said, the US has (or had) some great things about it. But it is FAR from being the image of what it purports to be. I would GLADLY switch places with any kiwi that would rather live here in the US any day. You will not find a developed country more insular, more narcissistic, and less informed than the US. And “we” like it that way. Those cultural attitudes shape the political policies of the country and what is even permissible in public discourse.

No, its not as bad as Iran, but its a lot worse than I think many foreigners from developed countries could imagine, considering all what America is supposed to stand for. Please, don’t buy the propaganda from CNN, Fox, CBS, Hollywood, etc. You mostly get to see the good slivers of US wealth, but its a lot more highly concentrated than you think. Live here for 37 years and you’ll see what I mean.

Sorry for the rant. Statements like that just leave me gobsmacked.

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Anyone who elects to be an atheist in any part of “middle-america” does so clandestinely or at large personal risk. I know you don’t believe it, I know you don’t understand it. I don’t think a New Zealander is equipped to understand it. It has to be seen to be believed and it has stuff all to do with “elitism”, thanks very much.

“I will also remind you the everyone has the opportunity to get wealthy “…

You really do NOT understand how America works now, do you. You have some idea of what it used to be and what it might have been but as far as what it actually is, you are as innocent as a Bee is of Ballistics.

Fortunately I was able to move here. Unfortunately you can’t go there to live and work. I wish you could. Really. Understanding can only come from having done that and done if for years on end. This isn’t about being anti-American. It is about being understanding that too much inequality is bad for a society, and concentrating power to absolute limits, as has happened in the USA lets the “corruption” saw show some pretty sharp teeth.

BJ

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Which is why I said it was the US, not everywhere… there is no real “authority” although most of us accept Webster’s

I wonder which (or how many) spellings they use for this word.

respectfully
BJ

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respectfully
andrew

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Will there be witnesses ?

—————–

In the USA- boogie

respectfully
BJ

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Would the Greens have supported troops to WWII? Context is everything

yes, but on the side of the invaded & threatened nations, not the aggressor.

o.k. ari got there first & also said: “Iran… is at least pretending democracy”
it’s worse than that. iran was inching toward better democracy but bush did his best to present a hostile intransigent face to the fledgling democracy there. as a result it was discredited at home & replaced with a more hardline approach.

The John Key interviews I have seen on TV suggests that he is not prepared to give a straight answer on very much at all

indeed… how many interveiws have you seen? maybe i don’t watch enough tv but it seems to me his strategy is to remain the totally unknown quantity that is now & was when he arrived in politics & suddenly started to be talked up as the next leader.
i suspect the more people know about him, the less we’ll like him.

These include our traditional partners, Britain, Canada and the United States.

funny they didn’t say australia. still at least they’re saying “traditional partners” this time instead of “traditional allies” (traditional allies would be france, russia, greece etc).

The US didn’t really go completely sour until Vietnam.

nonsense, the usa has been an imperialist power from day one. take the phillipines… oh, you already did.

There is a difference between supporting the soldiers and supporting the position the New Zealand Government takes on foreign policy. I won’t condemn the soldiers, wherever they may serve, even if they are serving in a war or conflict that I think is totally unjustifiable.

toad seems to have caught that peculiar american disease. toad, to you believe in individual responsibility?

The most powerful person is George Bush who was elected where as the most powerful person in Iran is religiously appointed

aside from the obvious point that someone who comes to power by electoral fraud can hardly be said to be “elected” there is more similarity between iran’s constitutional provisions for choosing its leader & the USA’s than you let on.
the president is appointed by the elected electoral college, the supreme leader in iran is appointed by an elected body too.

his time the boogey-man is Iran,

bogey man, no extra o required. likely from the scottish word “bogle” for ghost.
i love to nitpick.

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I’d say the Green Party, along with the Maori Party, are the two most independent parties in parliament right now.

The USA has some really great things about it, and I think supporting the USA in research, advancement of free speech, in trade where their businesses are ethical, and so on has a lot of potential to do great things for both our countries. But none of those things mean we should just line ourselves up by their side all the time. In the long term, our allies will respect us more if we hold our own, independent principles, and we stick up for them in a way that doesn’t antagonise them. I don’t see how implying that we wouldn’t support a war in Iran is anti-american in any sense.

I don’t support the idea that Iran and the USA are morally equivalent, (as the problems with US politics are unsanctioned and there is open talk and movement for reform among Presidential candidates) but I don’t trust anyone with nuclear weapons. Until there is a meaningful step-down from the countries with more ridiculous armaments, I see no reason why we should be antagonistic of peaceful attempts at nuclear power.

That said, I do agree with watching the Green Party for xenophobia. It is one of my few remaining concerns with the Party, and an area where they could truly do better. There is from time to time a lack of respect in the Greens’ calls for independence, and we should all avoid that sort of thing. That said, this is a relatively small failing compared to the social injustice and economic hegemony that I feel some of the other parties would allow.

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Oops, yes, I did mean Iran.

BB said: your case is not helped by the likes of Keith Locke who seems to go into melt down mode whenever he gets the chance to have a crack at the Yanks.

Actually, I’ve just trawled Keith’s media releases throughout 2007 for statements criticising actions of foreign governments. Those Governments that get one or more mention in that regard are:

Iran (6), United States (6), Burma (4), China (2), Philippines (2), Zimbabwe (2), Tonga (2), Fiji (2), Afghanistan (1), Israel (1), Indonesia (1) and Australia (1). So only 20% of Keith’s 2007 media releases criticising foreign governments criticise the US, the same as criticise Iran. Hardly “going into melt down mode whenever he gets the chance to have a crack at the Yanks”!!!

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Could the US be about tied with the USSR as the leading *historical* state sponsors of terror? Hmm

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It doesn’t take away from the nonsense of “the US being the leading state sponsor of terror”. It grants Iran moral equivalency to the US, which is little more than the fantasy of a grey haired old Marxist, or an outright lie. It also deflects attention from Iran’s own declared aggressiveness, it doesn’t need defending by anyone – its government attacks its own people and is generating enough fear to incite pre-emptive strikes against itself. It is hardly innocent.

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Um, what about here on the Greens’ human rights campaign page, Scott. There are 6 links relating to the persecution of Christians in Iraq.

Incidentally, the other countries to get one or more condemnatory mentions on that page are Burma, China, Singapore and Saudi Arabia.

Despite the horrors of Guantanamo Bay, not one mention for the US!

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and the Green party wonders why it gets flamed for being anti-American. I seem to recall Keith Locke was one of those cheerleading the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan at the time, a murderous occupation, but somehow you DON’T say that Russia was a leading sponsor of terror – of course not, that was “back then” during the Cold War. So even though the US Presidency has changed three times since then (indeed more than the Soviet/Russian Presidency), the actions of previous administrations mean it can be blamed. Imagine if the NZ government was blamed for the actions of the Muldoon administration.

More importantly, to apply moral equivalency to the USA, compared with those who deliberately target to murder the maximum number of civilians in cities is repulsive.

The Green party likes to claim it takes the moral highground on human rights internationally, but when it is a state the US targets (for whatever reason) it starts finding excuses for it. The Iranian state murders homosexuals, political dissidents, teenage girls for having consensual sexual relations, it brutally suppresses debate about religion or its Islamist state. Iran is backing the spread of similar Islamism to Iraq and the Palestinian territories. Iran’s President has repeated called for the eradication of Israel, including rhetoric that talks of annihilation – meanwhile Iran fails to deliver the level of transparency the IAEA requires of it.

However, the Green (declared) beliefs in feminism, freedom of speech, secular government, liberal democracy and human rights can be dismissed, as can the agenda against nuclear weapons, or even the belief in peace, because Iran is being exposed for what it is by the USA. Your blind anti-Americanism is such that you NEVER protest against the torture and executions carried out by Iran, you NEVER protest Iran’s failure to be transparent with the IAEA (even though you profess to believe in multilateralism).

If you damned Iran for its abuses of human rights and its lack of nuclear transparency, but also declared opposition to any initial use of force against Iran it would at least show principle, and I could respect that.

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he does? really? can you provide an example? a quote?

personally I would imagine that keith having a go at the US is pretty rare, and his comments are well reasoned, so I doubt you can find an example of him going into melt down mode

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Im going to assume this is tounge and cheak, please tell me if i’m wrong. However what it does show is that you have a very eliteist attitude. Clearly you believe that Americans who live in rural areas are somehow inferior to those who live in urban areas. Perhaps its for their political or religious beliefs or maybe their lifestyle but deep down you are an eliteist.

You then proceed to go into a Marxist rant about how the proletariat are nothing but the playthings of the rich upper-class. I would like to remind you at this point that everyone has one vote in America, its superior to Communism in that regard. I will also remind you the everyone has the oppourtunity to get wealthy and become a filthy rich prick through the free market. Your attitude of tall poppy syndrome however means that you see rich people not a successful men and women to whom we should aspire but as but as socially unacceptable demons. You will deny this of course but I assure you its in everything you type, just like the anti-Americanism.

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