Sorry Trevor29,

Have studied this intensively and have realised this concept will never be a commercial reality.

I could argue all day on this but not going to bother anymore.

My donation to charity stands if they sell a 1000 square metre unit commercially and it is in use for 12 months. Wonder if you will do the same if they are unsuccesful and fold.

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Gerrit,

You are confusing the need for airflow with a need for energy. The kite sail has some drag when flying, and that is the only energy needed to keep the kite set properly. The key performance factor is the lift to drag ratio.

The kites used by kite surfers are a compromise and I expect that their lift to drag ratio isn’t as good as the kite sail can be. Remember that the kite sail can be adjusted in flight and isn’t just controlled by a pair of cables. Also the surf boards used by kite surfers are also a compromise and don’t have the same performance as a less constrained design.

Why are Beluga starting with smaller kite sails? Because they are still experimenting, and are working their way up to bigger models, and also because there are a large number of smaller vessels that they can sell the smaller models to.

Trevor.

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Trevor29,

Still suggest that you go and talk to the kite surfers and ask them to sail to windward with a kite.

I know what the answer will be (been there, got the t shirt).

Comparing a kite with a wing or a sail leaves out one very large component. Wind energy is needed to keep the kite “inflated” and flowing.

Wings are solid so dont need energy to maintain their shape and sails are flown from masts and booms so dont need energy to keep them up.

If Beluga were serious they would be trialing the recommended 1000 square metre kite not the puny 160 metre one.

Why arent they? Because it is too big, too cumbersome, too hard to launch and retrieve and with no real benefits and with substantial risks and costs.

And until they do the kite will never fly commercially (after all is that not the point of the whole excercise?).

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Gerrit:

A yacht can tack into the wind. A good glider can glide several times further than it descends without finding an updraft. The same principle applies to both, except the yacht’s sail is at right angles to the glider’s wing. It also applies to the kite sail.

If the wind is beam on or ahead, the kite sail is flown nearly horisontally with just enough vertical to keep it up. In this mode, the kite sail is ahead of the ship even though the wind is in a direction that would push it behind the ship. Remember, the kite is being flown. It is under complete control, with more control than a paraglider pilot has of his (or her) parasail.

You are being mislead by applying simple physics – the sort that said that heavier than air vehicles can’t fly. The kite sail’s behaviour is a bit more advanced than that. It isn’t just a parachute and doesn’t behave like one.

Therefore I see no reason not to believe the claim that the kite sail can be effective for winds up to 45 degrees or so ahead of beam. However the towing force would be much higher for winds coming from behind the vessel.

Trevor.

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Interesting link! The basic Lug Sail design would do – inexpensive and highly effective – the kite looks like a bit of a joke…but yeah a hullbased vertical water turbine would probably charge any number of batteries for good reserves of electricity….

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Mark,

Absolutely, Have seen horizontal wind power generators being developed which have a huge advantage over the vertical blade type. Tha tis were the future is at.

No vertical rotor blades that require a high tower and expensive wind following rotating heads.

http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/design/horver.htm

Could quite easily see these on shipping and have the advantage of being able to be used irrespective of wind ditrection and course sailed.

Trevor29,

Suggest you go to an area where local kite surfers are playing and ask them if it is possible to generate lift from a kite with the wind anywere but in a 180 degree arc from behind themselves.

Any kite flown aft off broad beam will be a drag not a lift. Simple physics.

The further to kite is to dead down wind, the more efficient it is, broad of beam it is at it leasts efficient, aft of beam it is a drag and head to wind it wont fly.

Dont believe everything you read from Beluga.

The write not for the commercial operator but for their funders to keep the money flow going.

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frog blog’s help links are broken. All I get is Error 404.

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Sorry – still getting the hang of the blockquote.

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Gerrit said:

Remember the kite is only deployable if the wind is from dead astern or within a 180 degree arc from dead on the port side to the opposite starboard side.

Have you actually read what they say about the kite sail? They can use the kite to save fuel over a much wider arc than that. Requiring a tail wind (or at least not a head wind) during the 20 minutes or so to launch is not a major issue. It may just mean that the ship has to change course a bit for a short while.

Trevor.

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Have to ask Russel I guess Gerrit. Not only sails but power turbines (wind,water) could be fitted for smog free electric running as well

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Have they sold a commercial unit yet?

How much research money has this project eaten up and why are the commercial ship operators not rushing in to utilise this technology?

Research and trials have been going on for roughly five years and still no commercial sale?

It just is not viable in a commercial sense where ships tend to be larger than a small freighter.

And gee, they did not launch the kite till the lighter winds at the Azores was reached. No wind in the North Sea or the Bay of Biscay? Or too much or from the wrong direction.

Remember the kite is only deployable if the wind is from dead astern or within a 180 degree arc from dead on the port side to the opposite starboard side.

The kite is just a toy to soak up funding for the researchers, it is a feel good project to let people think something is happening while nothing of commercial or environmental value actually is.

Now, when we see a practical 1000 square metre kite sold commercially and deployed for 12 months from a larger and more practical freighter. Than we can all get exited. My offer for a $200 donation to charity stands when this event occurs.

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As a sailor I’m glad to see it – could design a much (much) better sail set for vehichle pictured – shut down those slow and noisy, polluttin’ engines!

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It is now on its way back to Europe:
http://www.beluga-group.com/News.72.0.html?&cHash=55f876775b&tx_ttnewstt_news=570

Trevor.

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It reached Venezuela on 6 Feb:

http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/ms-beluga-skysails-completes-h-002897.php

Trevor.

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“To update the story, the MS Beluga Skysails set sail today from the northern Germany port of Bremerhaven on her maiden commercial voyage, carrying parts for wind turbines (ironically enough) to Guanta Venezuela.” (also dated 22 January, 2008)

http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/the-ms-beluga-skysails-leaves–002869.php

Trevor.

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It would appear to be on its way:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22788488/
“The world’s first commercial ship powered partly by a giant kite set off on a maiden voyage from Bremen to Venezuela on Tuesday, in an experiment that inventor Stephan Wrage hopes can wipe 20 percent, or $1,600, from the ship’s daily fuel bill.” (dated Tuesday 22 January, 2008)

Another link:
http://www.greenrep.net/2008/01/10/new-cargo-ship-cuts-fuel-use-with-a-kite-like-sail/

Trevor.

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no problem is insurmountable, just the implementation of the solution may not be commercially viable.

anything is commercially viable which is: a) possible &
b) pays a good enough return. in this case the commercial prize of a huge cut in fuel bills

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plus there’s no world government to administer them – the trading scheme is a mechanism for countries to co-operate on this

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Now can I interest you in the carbon credits for my uncut lawn?

why not? people should mow their lawns a lot less. i can’t understand the obsession with short grass. another manifestation of the general insanity in society. but i doubt you’ll get any significant saving for just one lawn. what you don’t seem to understand is that when people buy credits, those credits have to come from somewhere. the existence of credits doesn’t encourage carbon emmissions, it creates a transfer of wealth from those who are emmitting to those who are planting forest, or other activities to reduce carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.
it could also be done through taxes & subsidies, but for some reason those things have a bad name

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Trevor29,

Absolutely, without an independent auditing system in place this will and has happened.

Problem I see see is that with the big auditing firms seeing a chance to make a buck it adds another layer of “ticket clippers” to the cqrbon trading cost.

Have commented earlier on another post that carbon trading with corporate money making involved is here for the long term. They will not be interested in seeing a carbon reduction (earth saving) because they would not be making money.

Carbon trading is supposed to reduce carbon emmisions, instead it will do the opposite.

Corporates will be looking for every opportunity to find a carbon sinkhole and “selling” this to the carbon emitors. With a 30% fee for carrying out the transaction and 5% per annon to keep it audited??

Now can I interest you in the carbon credits for my uncut lawn?

Andrew, let me know when the first commercial 5000 square metre kite flies for 12 months on a ship and what charity you would like me to donate the $200 to.

As I said before, no problem is insurmountable, just the implementation of the solution may not be commercially viable.

Me thinks sailing ships along the more conventioanl lines will be the answer. That plus nuclear propulsion when (as BJ says) security can be guaranteed.

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