fancy agreeing with bjchip(grin) who was so scathing of support for the ALCP who at least believe in the primacy of this issue.

it is just not harm reduction by any stretch of the definition when people die as a prohibition-related harm. (but never scrutinised under Health ministry’s National drug ‘harm minimisation’ policy framework, and prohibition harms rarely if ever advocated against by eco-justice party, despit being so deserving and such a vulnerable target – ‘poor public policy’ in helen clarks words, but why have the green party let Labour forget their commitment to reviewing the law (1998 resolution).

half the back-block murders, police shootings , prospective ‘taser’ incidents, and crime damage and ‘miscreancy’ eg youth justic outcomes, in nz is arguably prohibition related harm.’FUCK OFF COPS’ is a general sentiment in many of the circles i move in (not all underclass either i might add).

but Keith Locke has yet to mention and apears to have no concept of the War on Drugs – after 8 whole years of being the law and order, foreign policy expert. And Nandor has forgotten what is at the heart of injustice in NZ?

VERY STRANGE.

regds

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Stuey – One of the reasons I am in the green party is because the law enforcement being done against people who smoke pot is one of the most egregiously evil things we do to one another and it is based on the most blatant lies and misinformation that I have ever encountered.

The lawyer was right. The court and police however, were doing their job as dictated by the parliament of the people.

I have scant respect for the law. Some for the police, they don’t write the laws they are sworn to enforce, but none for the professional evaders of responsibility who make the law.

respectfully
BJ

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one for the tough on drugs, tough on prisoners brigade
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/nelsonmail/4268969a19260.html

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Well, as far as I was concerned we were talking about crime, justice and punishment. IMHO social justice is inseperably linked with economic justice. You can’t have one without the other.

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excuse me the thread seems to have gone off topic. I thought we were talking about cannabis prohibition being a much bigger ‘toxic-policy’ issue for the greens to tackle, than tasers.

Adjusting one little regulation under the misuse of drugs act, a shift from class C to D. How hard is that?

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“The redistribution of wealth is simply another form of theft, I earn it and the govt gives it to somebody else who does nothing all day.”

I’m not arguing for state mandated redistribution of income, but merely a redesign of the current economic system that was designed to favour and protect the privileges and dominance of one social class over another.

I don’t like the State anymore than you do, probably less, because I recognise the fact that it works far more in the interests of the capitalist classes than for the workers and I despise the compromising, paternalistic, oppurtunistic Fabians as much as you do.
http://www.mutualist.org/id7.html

One fact that I’m sure of is your intellectual honesty so I highly recommend you read this.
http://www.mutualist.org/id4.html

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SleepyTreehugger, “Democrats for Social Credit” has had the brains to recognise the core dishonesty that’s de-legitimizing capitalism for a long time….which is why we get zero exposure in the farce that is modern debt-based democracy.
We are just dumb stupid slaves, but the inability of people to realize n act accordingly is what ultimately stops us from grasping a system that promotes our humanside.
It’s not the Bush’s, Iraq Wars etc that’s the opposition, it’s US, as a collective; and our dsymal failure to implement the simple reforms that should have been done years ago has allowed a build up power of unimaginable proportions and ambitions.
The heart of the change is thus:
http://www.democrats.org.nz/News/Articles/2007/Work-as-a-Vocation.aspx

There is a long heritage of monetary reform analysis, from rocket scientists, engineers, prominet public servants, etc but it essentially boils down to what is above; bUT i can tell you from personal experience that the character of DSC at all levels is vastly different from that which i xperienced as a green, so it probably wouldn’t suit many here.

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“But what incentive would there be to do the jobs no one likes doing, or the jobs the come with a lot of pressure and responsibility? If there is little differential in pay, then wouldn’t most people opt to go for the most personally satisfying job? Who would clean the gutters?”

What incentive is there for most people to do jobs that they don’t like nowdays? If you’d notice te least satisfying jobs tend to be the ones that provide the least compensation. Cleaners, hospitality staff (cooks, dishwashers etc). Why is this the case? Because degrees of financial compensation is dictated by the tension between the bargaining power of capital and labour.

If capital has to compete for a limited supply of workers (such as after the Black Plague devasted the population of Europe) then labour has a strong bargaining position and can negotiate for better wages, but if labour has to compete for a limited number of jobs (such as when land owners forced the majority of peasants off previously commonly held land in the Enclosure movement during the Edwardian Period) then the bargain position shifts to favour capital who is then able to negotiate the wages down.

Perhaps I used the wrong word. Maybe inequitable would be more appropriate e.g. unfair and it certainly is an unfair world when one section of society consumes consumes 30% of the world’s resources despite having 5% of the world’s population.

I wonder if capital gains, rental of housing, and interest on investment is included in income distribution statistics, and the tax system favouring those that own land (LAQC, lack of capital gains tax, and ability to write off interest payments), because this country could be more inequitable than we currently realize if they aren’t included.
There are studies that convincingly link housing affordability to poverty.
http://www.cpag.org.nz/cgi-bin/htsearch?config=cpag&restrict=&exclude=&words=Housing+Affordability+MUL

“I would like to hear the pros and cons of a different structure. Is there a credible academic analysis somewhere?”

There are both credible academic analysis of the work of Silvio Gesell and emperical research on how his theories worked in practice something that neoclassical economics and neoliberalism lacks.
http://www.transaction.net/money/cc/cc04.html

Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics at Yale University visited Worgl after reading the writings of Silvio Gesell to witness the theories being successfully demonstrated and wanted to apply the same theories in the United States, but was opposed by FDR, because it would threaten Federal centralisation of economic planning and therefore his power.

A similar project is being run in Tyrol, German and its success is such that the German Central Bank has completed a study on it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/01/18/cneuro18.xml

Jerome Blanc, The American Journal of Economics and Sociology
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-53449308.html

John Maynard Keynes wrote admiringly about the economic theory of Silvio Gesell (who influenced the designer of the currency of Worgl, Austria that I alluded to earlier) in his book General Theory of Employment, Money, and Interest, but his only disagreement was on the nature of interest when he said in his liquidity preference theory is that since people prefer to spend their money and those who decide to save should be rewarded for foregoing spending it.

Thats not why interest exists though.
Interest is a way for banker’s to attract capital to their institutions away from competing investment vehicles so that they can loan multiples of that money for interest, which is their primary means of profit. It is also useful for governments to contract and expand the money supply in the interests of the capitalist class as alluded to by John Kenneth Galbraith in his book the Good Society.

http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~roehrigw/keynes/engl.htm

Unfortunately that is the chief cause of economic instability for several reasons.

a) the interest component of the loan is not issued at the time that of issue so all business are competing for an insufficient supply of money, which means that businesses will fail unless the economy grows through the extension of greater amounts of credit.

b) at the beginning of the business cycle, firms tend to overinvest in production while both credit and labour are cheap, but as profits increase and employment rises, labour’s bargaining position is improved and are emboldened to demand pay increases, so in the interests of the capitalists the banks, but they don’t realise that their profits are determined by the demand for their products are dependant on the wages of their workers thus why there are frequent “business cycles”. Boom and Bust.

3) It reinforces itself as it encourages and rewards the hoarding of wealth, which insures an inadequate circulation of money supply, creating further demand for credit, and the concentration of wealth into the hands of a few.

4) It encourages and facilitates speculative investments, which have been the source of many economic crises since the institution of private banking was invested, going back to the first recorded bank run suffered in the time of Emporer Tiberius.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Influence_of_Wealth_in_Imperial_Rome/The_Business_Panic_of_33_A.D.

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The redistribution of wealth is simply another form of theft, I earn it and the govt gives it to somebody else who does nothing all day.

I am not against pensions or benefits for those who genuinely qualify for the sickness or invalids benefit, however the rest are simply sponging off the tax payer.

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>>more equal distribution of wealth

But what incentive would there be to do the jobs no one likes doing, or the jobs the come with a lot of pressure and responsibility? If there is little differential in pay, then wouldn’t most people opt to go for the most personally satisfying job? Who would clean the gutters? Who would drive a taxi at 3 in the morning? Once you have pay differential, you have economic inequality.

In the Kibbutz movement, they eventually returned to money and pay structures.

I find the banking structures interesting. I have seen the video about the development of fiat currencies, although I sensed I was watching a propoganda piece, and wondered who was behind it.

I would like to hear the pros and cons of a different structure. Is there a credible academic analysis somewhere?

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Also the successful example of Worgl, Austria in the interwar years that I cited earlier where unemployment of 30% and poverty before the monetary reforms design by Silvio Gesell to 0% unemployment and prosperity and back to 30% unemployment and widespread poverty after its threat to the traditional finance system came to the attention of Austria’s Central Bank who promptly shut it down.

“Some people do not have your best interests, or those of society at heart. Lead a horse to water…”

As I said earlier a more equal distribution of wealth will reduce the incidence of crime not stop it completely.

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“That is a lame excuse.”

There are degrees of difficulty from merely hard to nigh on impossible lol,.

I don’t think $1,000,000 for a small plot of land is particularly cheap a price that poor Jewish farmers in Palestine would never have even conceived of, perhaps compared to London, but we don’t trade in billions of pounds here like the City does.

My aim is rather more ambitious. To create a viable alternative to capitalism, which will be difficult when the Reserve Bank has powers like this.

“To enable the Reserve Bank to obtain information on the activities of the “fringe-bankingâ€? institutions and exercise some degree of control over their activities, the Bank is authorised to request any person or class of persons who (as a substantial part of their New Zealand business, accept deposits or carry on any banking business, or grant credit or make loans for the financing of industry, trade or commerce) to supply information concerning such business.”

“Deep down, you know it will not work.”

Its worked before and has been shut down, because the banker’s and financiers have seen it as a threat to their power and privilige.

The Continental Congress where the English counterfeited wagon loads in order to drive up inflation, which it did successfully.

Abraham Lincoln was conveniently murdered after he instituted a reform whereby the US treasury issued interest free fiat money much to the opposition of the bankers, but after he was assassinated the US moved to the gold standard and contracted the supply of greenbacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Note

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>>There are many barriers to entering the market.

That is a lame excuse. You want it to be easy?

You face risk. That is life. If you and others believe in your ideas, you will find a way, not make excuses. Are you less able than poor Jewish subsistence farmers? You live in New Zealand. Food grows. Land is cheap.

I think you hold an academic position which you are not prepared to put into reality. Ask yourself why. Deep down, you know it will not work.

>>Surely it is better to do that BEFORE they go into prison rather than AFTER.

Some people do not have your best interests, or those of society at heart. Lead a horse to water…

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BluePeter
“Which post are you addressing?”

This one

“You’re missing the point. They can redistribute wealth without killing their cash-cow in the process. If we overtax our business in NZ, we’ll have less to redistribute than we do now.”

“Pool together, form a commune, and share the profits equally. There is very little stopping you from creating Kibbutzim. I suspect you choose not to do so. Why?”

Its not as easy as you maintain.

There are many barriers to entering the market. Lack of capital due to high startup costs, market dominance by big enterprises through their preferential access to capital, economy of scale, popularity to investors due to limited liability laws that protect them, monopoly of ideas through state protected IP and patent laws etc etc.
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secC4.html#secc41

Why should I pay extortionate interest rates AND risk my house if my business went under even if I did have a house to use as security, when they’ve merely pulled the “money” out of thin air? Don’t believe me?

“In essence, it states that for every $100 of loans, a bank should have at least $8 of capital, of which at least $4 must be permanent equity. Because loans secured over residential property were seen to be less risky than other loans, they only had to have 50% as much capital. Loans to banks from OECD countries were seen to be less risky still, so they only had to have 20% as much capital, and loans to governments denominated in their local currency 0%. There were several other categories and treatment for off-balance-sheet exposures.�

http://www.rbnz.govt.nz/speeches/0104984.html

The institution of banking where private bankers issue credit, which also allows them to demand the money back with interest AND for their borrowers to secure their land as collateral in case they are unable to pay back their fine, despite not even being required to have sufficient reserves to cover it was justified in the 1956 Royal Commission on Monetary, Banking, and Credit Systems where the Solicitor General defends the system by merely cites an article in the 1918 Law Quarterly Review that quotes a book on the history of banking that claimed that Italian bankers had not only been banks of deposit, but banks of issue.

If you prefer to trust private bankers to issue our means of exchange then I’d be only to happy draw your attention to examples of where their greed and malfeance have had devastating effects.

Bank Panic of 1909 (Notice how in those days banks issued their own private currencies, which was supposedly backed by gold? How was so much credit created without a complementary increase in production of gold? Thats right Fractional Reserve Banking.

Panic of 1907

Depression of 1918-1921

Great Depression

Savings and Loans Crisis

1982 Mexican economic crisis

1994 Mexican economic crise

1997 Asian Crisis

Brazil, Russia, and Argentina economic crises

The collapse in Long Term Capital Management

The recent collapse of the subprime real estate market

Notice how in situations where banks and other financial institutions run immediately run to the government for help despite their exhorations that the government shouldn’t intervene in the market or rather help out the little guy.
http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2006/06/signs-of-hope-in-unlikely-places.html

Personally I don’t trust either as both act in their own best interests or those that fund them, which is why I prefer a system like this.
http://alt-money.tribe.net/thread/70e5eb29-853d-44ca-9faa-b789d1757037

As for blaming crime on the so-called Left. Fuckin bunch of compromising oppurtunistic, pateralistic sell-out Fabians the lot of ‘em.

Capitalism doesn’t cause crime, but its reform or replacement with a system that is design to meet the needs of everyone rather than to protect the privileges of one small section of society would limit it. Why do you think there is less incidence of crime among the middle and upper class compared to the poor? Does poverty make people committ violent crime? Of course not, but it makes them angry, depressed, undervalued and stressed though.

They’re are many academic studies that link economic hardship to crime and inequality, especially when governments encourage capital to shift economic development to the suburbs.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophyandsociety/0,6121,1538844,00.html

“Social disorganizations and crime rates in U.S. central cities: Toward an explanation of urban economic change”
Joong-Hwan Oh
Sociology Department, Hunter College, The City University of New York

“Urban Change and Poverty”
Commission on Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education

“Impact of Inequality”
http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophyandsociety/0,6121,1538844,00.html

Even George Bernard Shaw was aware of its ramifications in his day.
http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/shaw/works/guide2.htm

And no. Using people in prison as cheap labour is not exactly a good way to show people that their contribution to society is valued. Surely it is better to do that BEFORE they go into prison rather than AFTER.
Thats no better than the Edwardian Work Houses.

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BB: I quite agree that child abusers are the scum of the earth. I am against the death penalty not because nobody is bad enough to die, but because nobody is good enough to kill. I liked Gandalf’s argument against the death penalty when applied to Gollum.

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>>criminals will eventually get released back into the community

Not if I had my way they wouldn’t.

Before parole, they’d need to prove they are suitable for release. The way they would do this is by being a model prisoner in my 9-5 environment, they would possess a marketable skill, and they would pass the psychological profile.

No parole until the criteria is met. They reform, or they stay inside.

The aim is protection of the public and rehabilitation.

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“As for violence, the causes are varied. I would refer you to a study in the book Freakonomics. Whilst government were predicting increasing violence levels in the US, the trend actually reversed. Why? What happened?”

First thing. Levitt’s claim is incorrect. He apparently made a couple of critical mistakes in his model/methodology. Besides its the left or progressives who are responsible for sex education, contraception and legislation to legalise abortion much to the opposition from moral conservatives.
http://www.isteve.com/abortion.htm

What you also seem to forget is regardless of at what stage of criminal development they are locked away, criminals will eventually get released back into the community. The US recitivism rate is no better or even worse than ours despite their hard stance on crime.

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big bro,

I have scant regard for Middle NZ’s opinions when they come in to conflict with the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

The death penalty is the ultimate denial of human rights – the premeditated and cold-blooded killing of a human being by the state in the name of justice. It violates the right to life as proclaimed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and is the ultimate cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment.

BluePeter,

Not sure what unqualified hand-outs you’re referring to…or whether I agree with them.

I agree prisons should employ inmates in full-time work that pays for their confinement and qualifies them with a skill/trade. Organic gardening should be compulsory as should literacy studies. There should be strict yet fair rules surrounding all inmates activities. This should be run by the state, family and community.

Criminals should be sentenced to long hard years of contemplation and work – which by necessity must contain some form of education on what they have done, how it is wrong and how they can make amends and integrate themselves back in to society as a stable and functioning individual (if society agrees they can return).

“The alternative is what we have now. Violent attacks against innocent citizens. Shame on the left.”

What are you referring to? Burton? If so, I have no sympathy for those responsible for his utterly perplexing release, their ‘heads must roll’ (though not literally big bro).

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Which post are you addressing?

People need to work in order to produce the things we need. What is the alternative?

You don’t have to trade your liberty for recompense that I dictate. Pool together, form a commune, and share the profits equally. There is very little stopping you from creating Kibbutzim. I suspect you choose not to do so. Why?

I have no sympathy for ultra-violent offenders. They have crossed a line. They should be removed for the greater good. They should count themselves lucky they keep their lives, which is more than they offer their victims. They get to live and work, and an opportunity to regain freedom, once they’ve proved themselves.

The alternative is what we have now. Violent attacks against innocent citizens. Shame on the left.

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The attitude of you righties is just mindboggling.

Capitalism is designed to entrench and protect your social and economic privileges and still you’re not happy! For example your so-called property “rights” that excludes others not only from the use of that land, but also participation in any part of the economy beyond having to trade their liberty for eight hours a day or more for recompense that YOU dictate.

The fact that the economy doesn’t function without extensive government intervention at the taxpayers expense is a testament to the flaws of that economic system, not some supposed socialist ideological need for control.

FDR was hardly a liberal after all. He was a conservative reactionary much like Churchill who wanted to preserve capitalism against the radical left and it was the business community that designed the New Deal. Price controls, a biddable workforce (through forced arbritration and the like were in their best interests after all.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/4512566.html

The same could be said for New Zealand after the death of Michael Joseph Savage. Fraser was rather conservative for a supposed liberal and furthermore kicked out John A Lee who (an influential leftie) who had influenced Michael Joseph Savage’s decision to nationalise the Reserve Bank and request that it issue the government cheap credit (1.25% interest rate) to fund the housing and hydroelectric projects, and guaranteed prices, rather than depending on expensive (and fraudulent) private bankers.

“Where will the money come from?�?; the Government’s answers were never explicit, but in fact a good deal of the money came from State credit created by the Reserve Bank. This institution, by an Act of 1936, had become a fully governmental body; where these expensive programmes could not be financed out of current revenue or overseas funds, the Government simply borrowed from its own bank. Neither the housing programme nor the guaranteed price could have been financed without such credit.�?

http://www.teara.govt.nz/1966/H/HistorySettlementAndDevelopment/193549theLabourRegime/en

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