Comments on: Get Real John http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/ hopping along the corridors of power Mon, 22 Mar 2010 06:19:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Stu Donovan http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33314 Stu Donovan Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:50:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33314 Nick C - are you an intellectual poodle? Progressives, United Future, NZ First SUPPORT motions of confidence and supply to Labour, whereas the Greens ABSTAIN. The ACT party is far more National's poodle than the Green Party is a poodle to any party. You should pull your head out of your own ass before you talk about the Greens and Helen being in some kind of pleasurable relationship. Nick C – are you an intellectual poodle?

Progressives, United Future, NZ First SUPPORT motions of confidence and supply to Labour, whereas the Greens ABSTAIN.

The ACT party is far more National’s poodle than the Green Party is a poodle to any party.

You should pull your head out of your own ass before you talk about the Greens and Helen being in some kind of pleasurable relationship.

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33253 jh Wed, 07 Nov 2007 08:51:41 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33253 You weren't too keen on the "ground breaking research" from otago University that poured cold water on claims that light occasional smacking was harmful. When Dr Miilichamp presented her findingsto the subcomittee Sue bradford questioned her motives. You weren’t too keen on the “ground breaking research” from otago University that poured cold water on claims that light occasional smacking was harmful. When Dr Miilichamp presented her findingsto the subcomittee Sue bradford questioned her motives.

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]]> By: stuey http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33245 stuey Wed, 07 Nov 2007 04:03:42 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33245 Oh go on, please name one. Go on. I bet you can't! I'm genuinely interested because I wasn't aware of any report that the Green Party has unequivocally championed. Personally I thought that the Greens take a balanced view on all reports, pointing out things they agree with in the reports and things they disagree with. As a single example, going back to the original posting for this thread, Russel points out what we agree with about the article but also points out that he finds some of it "questionable". So there's a double challenge for you: * Can you name a single report that the Green Party has "championed unequivocally"? * Can you name a single report by an NGO that you distrust the findings of because that NGO has an "anti-capitalist agenda"? Oh go on, please name one. Go on. I bet you can’t!

I’m genuinely interested because I wasn’t aware of any report that the Green Party has unequivocally championed.

Personally I thought that the Greens take a balanced view on all reports, pointing out things they agree with in the reports and things they disagree with.

As a single example, going back to the original posting for this thread, Russel points out what we agree with about the article but also points out that he finds some of it “questionable”.

So there’s a double challenge for you:
* Can you name a single report that the Green Party has “championed unequivocally”?
* Can you name a single report by an NGO that you distrust the findings of because that NGO has an “anti-capitalist agenda”?

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]]> By: PeterExitsLeft http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33232 PeterExitsLeft Wed, 07 Nov 2007 01:59:04 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33232 >>I expect you are good at recognising them because you employ them so often Ad hominem :) >>reports you distrust Almost any report that that has been unequivocally championed by the Green Party... >>I expect you are good at recognising them because you employ them so often

Ad hominem :)

>>reports you distrust

Almost any report that that has been unequivocally championed by the Green Party…

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]]> By: stuey http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33230 stuey Wed, 07 Nov 2007 01:40:48 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33230 PEL: "Straw man" I expect you are good at recognising them because you employ them so often. So who are the "green" groups whose reports you distrust, if it is not those NGOs? PEL: “Straw man”

I expect you are good at recognising them because you employ them so often.

So who are the “green” groups whose reports you distrust, if it is not those NGOs?

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]]> By: PeterExitsLeft http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33225 PeterExitsLeft Tue, 06 Nov 2007 23:40:09 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33225 Nice one, Stu. >>Do you believe in all paranoid conspiracy theories then? No. >>To argue that Oxfam, or GreenPeace, or Amnesty International, or the World Wildlife Fund have an anti-capitalist agenda is complete and utter tripe Straw man. >>Clearly you only have an open mind towards anything that doesn’t challenge your world view Depends on the level of proof, really. >>free-trade is good, growth is good world Certainly are. They keep more people fed, clothed and happy than the tried and failed protectionist alternatives. Nice one, Stu.

>>Do you believe in all paranoid conspiracy theories then?

No.

>>To argue that Oxfam, or GreenPeace, or Amnesty International, or the World Wildlife Fund have an anti-capitalist agenda is complete and utter tripe

Straw man.

>>Clearly you only have an open mind towards anything that doesn’t challenge your world view

Depends on the level of proof, really.

>>free-trade is good, growth is good world

Certainly are. They keep more people fed, clothed and happy than the tried and failed protectionist alternatives.

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]]> By: stuey http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33224 stuey Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:54:37 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33224 PEL: "I’m suspicious of green reports because I perceive a not-so-hidden anti-capitalist agenda." Do you believe in all paranoid conspiracy theories then? To argue that Oxfam, or GreenPeace, or Amnesty International, or the World Wildlife Fund have an anti-capitalist agenda is complete and utter tripe. Because that is the type of report that you are dissing. PEL: "I’d like to think I’d keep an open mind." Yeah right! Anyone else spot the irony? Clearly you only have an open mind towards anything that doesn't challenge your world view - anything that does challenge your cosy little free-trade is good, growth is good world view is automatically pigeonholed as "anti-capitalist" (whatever that is?) and therefore can be safely ignored. PEL: “I’m suspicious of green reports because I perceive a not-so-hidden anti-capitalist agenda.”

Do you believe in all paranoid conspiracy theories then?

To argue that Oxfam, or GreenPeace, or Amnesty International, or the World Wildlife Fund have an anti-capitalist agenda is complete and utter tripe. Because that is the type of report that you are dissing.

PEL: “I’d like to think I’d keep an open mind.”

Yeah right! Anyone else spot the irony? Clearly you only have an open mind towards anything that doesn’t challenge your world view – anything that does challenge your cosy little free-trade is good, growth is good world view is automatically pigeonholed as “anti-capitalist” (whatever that is?) and therefore can be safely ignored.

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]]> By: ash http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33219 ash Tue, 06 Nov 2007 20:14:35 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33219 B12 is fine thanks, as are all aspects of my health. Greens I know aren't anti-capitalist. they put people before profit as a golden rule though and are minimal consumers. They love business, though not business that oversteps it's line in society. These people do this for something that could be described as 'excess compassion syndrome' (they care deeply enough about humanity and the earth that they alter their consumeristic lifestyle to benefit ALL people and environments).... not something all of us will ever experience or understand.. though imagine if we did...I guess only a few are able to do that too. B12 is fine thanks, as are all aspects of my health.

Greens I know aren’t anti-capitalist. they put people before profit as a golden rule though and are minimal consumers. They love business, though not business that oversteps it’s line in society.

These people do this for something that could be described as ‘excess compassion syndrome’ (they care deeply enough about humanity and the earth that they alter their consumeristic lifestyle to benefit ALL people and environments)…. not something all of us will ever experience or understand.. though imagine if we did…I guess only a few are able to do that too.

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]]> By: PeterExitsLeft http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33218 PeterExitsLeft Tue, 06 Nov 2007 19:20:46 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33218 >>to have an anti-capitalist agenda is equivalent to not telling the truth Statistics can mean anything you want, depending on how they are framed... >>I wish people with an anti-capitalist agenda just stated it in as many words Agreed. Might put the 5% under considerable pressure..... >>to have an anti-capitalist agenda is equivalent to not telling the truth

Statistics can mean anything you want, depending on how they are framed…

>>I wish people with an anti-capitalist agenda just stated it in as many words

Agreed. Might put the 5% under considerable pressure…..

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]]> By: samiuela http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33210 samiuela Tue, 06 Nov 2007 10:41:50 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33210 PEL: You write: "I’m suspicious of green reports because I perceive a not-so-hidden anti-capitalist agenda." Are you implying that to have an anti-capitalist agenda is equivalent to not telling the truth, or something similar? As far as I'm concerned, I wish people with an anti-capitalist agenda just stated it in as many words. Its nothing to be ashamed of or hide. In fact, if someone is trying to hide an anti-capitalist agenda, I distrust them because they are trying to hide something, not because of what they are hiding. PEL: You write:

“I’m suspicious of green reports because I perceive a not-so-hidden anti-capitalist agenda.”

Are you implying that to have an anti-capitalist agenda is equivalent to not telling the truth, or something similar?

As far as I’m concerned, I wish people with an anti-capitalist agenda just stated it in as many words. Its nothing to be ashamed of or hide. In fact, if someone is trying to hide an anti-capitalist agenda, I distrust them because they are trying to hide something, not because of what they are hiding.

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]]> By: PeterExitsLeft http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33192 PeterExitsLeft Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:29:50 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33192 >>go meat-free for life and enjoy the benefits Peter…your body and mind will >>thank you Too much of a foodie. We're omnivores. Too much of either isn't healthy. How's your b12? ;) >>go meat-free for life and enjoy the benefits Peter…your body and mind will >>thank you

Too much of a foodie.

We’re omnivores. Too much of either isn’t healthy. How’s your b12? ;)

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]]> By: PeterExitsLeft http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33191 PeterExitsLeft Mon, 05 Nov 2007 22:17:55 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33191 >>you still wouldn’t trust certain reports because they are so-called green at the source? They may be telling a truth. I'd like to think I'd keep an open mind. I'm suspicious of green reports because I perceive a not-so-hidden anti-capitalist agenda. There are costs, and there are benefits, and the two should be weighed carefully. A factory may well make an impact on the environment, but it also pays taxes, which pays for education, health and welfare. >>you still wouldn’t trust certain reports because they are so-called green at the source?

They may be telling a truth. I’d like to think I’d keep an open mind.

I’m suspicious of green reports because I perceive a not-so-hidden anti-capitalist agenda. There are costs, and there are benefits, and the two should be weighed carefully. A factory may well make an impact on the environment, but it also pays taxes, which pays for education, health and welfare.

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]]> By: ash http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33187 ash Mon, 05 Nov 2007 20:43:37 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33187 PEL - I would be happy with a number of international independent groups, including any 'green' groups, because at their core is health, environment and animal welfare - all aspects that are crucial and at the heart of the debate. Unlike the meat industry, whose entire purpose is to sell you something...telling I know. what are your thoughts on that? you still wouldn't trust certain reports because they are so-called green at the source? I am far more suspect of people and industries trying to 'sell' product than those (usually NGOs or charities) trying to highlight that that product is detrimental to people's health, the environment or animal welfare. Everything with it's own merits of course. There are recent reports here carried out by international and ameican cancer research institutes...just one report of many that mentions red meat specifically. http://www.aicr.org/site/News2?abbr=pr_&page=NewsArticle&id=12898&news_iv_ctrl=1102 go meat-free for life and enjoy the benefits Peter...your body and mind will thank you. PEL – I would be happy with a number of international independent groups, including any ‘green’ groups, because at their core is health, environment and animal welfare – all aspects that are crucial and at the heart of the debate. Unlike the meat industry, whose entire purpose is to sell you something…telling I know. what are your thoughts on that? you still wouldn’t trust certain reports because they are so-called green at the source?

I am far more suspect of people and industries trying to ’sell’ product than those (usually NGOs or charities) trying to highlight that that product is detrimental to people’s health, the environment or animal welfare. Everything with it’s own merits of course.

There are recent reports here carried out by international and ameican cancer research institutes…just one report of many that mentions red meat specifically.
http://www.aicr.org/site/News2?abbr=pr_&page=NewsArticle&id=12898&news _iv_ctrl=1102

go meat-free for life and enjoy the benefits Peter…your body and mind will thank you.

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33176 jh Mon, 05 Nov 2007 07:33:07 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33176 Thanks David, I'll take you up on that. Thanks David, I’ll take you up on that.

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]]> By: Nick C http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33171 Nick C Mon, 05 Nov 2007 04:09:27 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33171 Stu- The fact that the greens prop up the Labour govt with your confidence and supply vote in return for, well nothing really proves that the greens are Labours poodle. What did you guys get in exchange for proping up Labour in 2005? A "Buy Kiwi Made" campaign and... thats it. No ministers, no place around the cabinet table, no baubles like winston. You guys talk tough when theirs no election but when push really comes to shove in 2008 you will do what you always do: Kissing Helen's ass. Stu- The fact that the greens prop up the Labour govt with your confidence and supply vote in return for, well nothing really proves that the greens are Labours poodle. What did you guys get in exchange for proping up Labour in 2005? A “Buy Kiwi Made” campaign and… thats it. No ministers, no place around the cabinet table, no baubles like winston. You guys talk tough when theirs no election but when push really comes to shove in 2008 you will do what you always do: Kissing Helen’s ass.

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]]> By: David http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33168 David Sun, 04 Nov 2007 23:56:18 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33168 JH, Thanks for championing Debatemapper in this context I co-founded Debatemapper with Peter Baldwin, the former Australian Minister for Higher Education -- and we piloted the web application with the UK Prime Minister's office at the start of the summer. We are in public beta now, with the goal of developing Debatemapper as a new kind of public service: one that makes the best arguments on all sides of every complex public debate freely available to all, and continuously open to challenge and improvement by all. If you are interested I would be happy to work with you and any fellow blog readers to start building a debate map around any of the major issues discussed above; from a New Zealand and/or international perspective. My contact details are available on the Debatemapper main site for anyone who would like to explore this further. David JH,

Thanks for championing Debatemapper in this context

I co-founded Debatemapper with Peter Baldwin, the former Australian Minister for Higher Education — and we piloted the web application with the UK Prime Minister’s office at the start of the summer.

We are in public beta now, with the goal of developing Debatemapper as a new kind of public service: one that makes the best arguments on all sides of every complex public debate freely available to all, and continuously open to challenge and improvement by all.

If you are interested I would be happy to work with you and any fellow blog readers to start building a debate map around any of the major issues discussed above; from a New Zealand and/or international perspective.

My contact details are available on the Debatemapper main site for anyone who would like to explore this further.

David

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]]> By: PeterExitsLeft http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33165 PeterExitsLeft Sun, 04 Nov 2007 21:27:18 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33165 >>PEL - studies commissioned by meat associations don’t count… So only studies commissioned by green-leaning organisations count? >>PEL – studies commissioned by meat associations don’t count…

So only studies commissioned by green-leaning organisations count?

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33164 jh Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:43:15 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33164 I was thinking of (one example) Cullen questioned about IEA's call to conserve energy and Cullens glib.. "I remember the Club of Rome (?) saying we would run out (blah, blah..)"... they just have to open their mouths long enough to fill the time slot. The system seems to be set up to allow politicians to side step straight answers... I wonder if there is really a need for face to face parliamentary sessions given that we have the internet. In box [questions] filtering >summarizing, sorting > answers > review > clarification etc. I was thinking of (one example) Cullen questioned about IEA’s call to conserve energy and Cullens glib.. “I remember the Club of Rome (?) saying we would run out (blah, blah..)”… they just have to open their mouths long enough to fill the time slot. The system seems to be set up to allow politicians to side step straight answers…
I wonder if there is really a need for face to face parliamentary sessions given that we have the internet. In box [questions] filtering >summarizing, sorting > answers > review > clarification etc.

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]]> By: phil u http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33162 phil u Sun, 04 Nov 2007 20:26:03 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33162 i agree with you jh.. for ..say..select committes to get more oversight/pro-active powers.. phil(whoar.co.nz) i agree with you jh..

for ..say..select committes to get more oversight/pro-active powers..

phil(whoar.co.nz)

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]]> By: jh http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33160 jh Sun, 04 Nov 2007 18:50:20 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/11/01/get-real-john/#comment-33160 Shouldn't that be a goal: improve the political system as they do in the US when congressional committees ask the hard questions? It seems to me that politicians can get away with glib answers too often. Shouldn’t that be a goal: improve the political system as they do in the US when congressional committees ask the hard questions? It seems to me that politicians can get away with glib answers too often.

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