Comments on: Big wind to the rescue http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/ hopping along the corridors of power Sun, 21 Mar 2010 02:09:01 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33214 Kevyn Tue, 06 Nov 2007 16:01:13 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33214 Samiuela, my comment "regular cycles of blackouts and savage price increases" is from the Electricity Departments annual reports from the '50s and '60s. Basically politicians refused to increase the wholesale price to match inflation. The drop in real power prices led to demand growing faster than predicted by the department with the result that they simple couldn't build power stations fast enough. When the inevitable but unpredictable dry year occured there would be blackouts and there would finally be a full inflation adjustment in one hit, frequently 25% or 50% increase in the wholesale price. The claim that the electrity reforms would reduce power prices was pure political spin. There is nothing in the free market theory to support that claim. What the theory does say is that energy costs will be reduced, and that is what has actually happened. Once people realised that power prices were not going to be reduced they started investing in energy efficiency like never before. That increase in demand has produced economies of scale so the price of energy saving lights has dropped by more than half. Prices for solar water and double glazing haven't really fallen for but they haven't increased by more than inflation either so they are relatively cheaper compared with the price of electricity. Most free market advocates don't really seem to know their subject very well since they constantly confuse the free market's effect on costs to the economy with price to the customer. And the free market's effects mainly occur in the medium or long term not in the short term. For instance, the price of electricity goes up, you invest in a slolar water heater, ten years later you have saved back the original cost and now the money you are not spending on energy can be spent in some other economic activity. Samiuela, my comment “regular cycles of blackouts and savage price increases” is from the Electricity Departments annual reports from the ’50s and ’60s. Basically politicians refused to increase the wholesale price to match inflation. The drop in real power prices led to demand growing faster than predicted by the department with the result that they simple couldn’t build power stations fast enough. When the inevitable but unpredictable dry year occured there would be blackouts and there would finally be a full inflation adjustment in one hit, frequently 25% or 50% increase in the wholesale price.

The claim that the electrity reforms would reduce power prices was pure political spin. There is nothing in the free market theory to support that claim. What the theory does say is that energy costs will be reduced, and that is what has actually happened. Once people realised that power prices were not going to be reduced they started investing in energy efficiency like never before. That increase in demand has produced economies of scale so the price of energy saving lights has dropped by more than half. Prices for solar water and double glazing haven’t really fallen for but they haven’t increased by more than inflation either so they are relatively cheaper compared with the price of electricity. Most free market advocates don’t really seem to know their subject very well since they constantly confuse the free market’s effect on costs to the economy with price to the customer. And the free market’s effects mainly occur in the medium or long term not in the short term. For instance, the price of electricity goes up, you invest in a slolar water heater, ten years later you have saved back the original cost and now the money you are not spending on energy can be spent in some other economic activity.

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]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33213 Kevyn Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:40:28 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33213 alistair, The only electricity crisis I can actually recall from the 70s was winter 73. The oil price spike occured at the end of 73. This was the blackout when New Zealanders discovered ceiling insulation, in fact pink batts only came onto the market in 1969. I'm not sure if we had any blackouts after that. The last of big hydro schemes were completed in the late 70s and with the stagnant economy and then the speculative Clyde dam I think we had the rare situation of surplus generating capacity for a decade or two. alistair, The only electricity crisis I can actually recall from the 70s was winter 73. The oil price spike occured at the end of 73. This was the blackout when New Zealanders discovered ceiling insulation, in fact pink batts only came onto the market in 1969. I’m not sure if we had any blackouts after that. The last of big hydro schemes were completed in the late 70s and with the stagnant economy and then the speculative Clyde dam I think we had the rare situation of surplus generating capacity for a decade or two.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33212 Trevor29 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 11:00:50 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-33212 On a blog about a new wind farm, I'm not interested in discussions about anti-smacking! I'm much more interested in why they are bundling a 100MW gas-fired generator with the wind farm, and the surprising lack of mention of that generator in the responses. However this could be part of a cunning plan - by bundling the gas-fired generator with the wind farm, they are attempting to convince us that it is just there to top up the generation when the wind isn't blowing. However this means that the other gas-fired generators will presumably run more often and longer. I'd rather see the geothermal generating plant expanded and run more in a load following mode and use the existing gas-fired generation to handle the peaks. Trevor. On a blog about a new wind farm, I’m not interested in discussions about anti-smacking! I’m much more interested in why they are bundling a 100MW gas-fired generator with the wind farm, and the surprising lack of mention of that generator in the responses. However this could be part of a cunning plan – by bundling the gas-fired generator with the wind farm, they are attempting to convince us that it is just there to top up the generation when the wind isn’t blowing. However this means that the other gas-fired generators will presumably run more often and longer.

I’d rather see the geothermal generating plant expanded and run more in a load following mode and use the existing gas-fired generation to handle the peaks.

Trevor.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32834 Trevor29 Sat, 27 Oct 2007 07:27:13 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32834 Samiuela was suggesting regulating the price to keep it constant. This is actually counter-productive. What we need is a system which encourages demand-side management, by lowering the price of electricity when it is cheap to produce and raising it when it is expensive to produce (e.g. high demand and/or no wind). The key to DSM is to pass those signals to the electricity consumer in close to real time so they can choose when to use electricity and when to defer that use or choose to use other energy sources (such as gas, coal, or biomass). Ideally this would be automated. By giving the consumer (house-hold or commercial/inductrial) a financial incentive to use electricity when it is available and to install the necessary equipment, the peaks in demand are flattened and there is less wasted energy. This may be as simple as having a second thermostat on a hot water cylinder to boost the temperature higher than normal when the power is cheap plus an extra ripple-control channel on the power metering. In general DSM leads to slight decreases in the efficiency of usage of electricity, but overall it leads to efficiency gains as more energy is used when available so it doesn't have to be stored in some other system or generated using less efficient plant. It also reduces the dips in the spot price of electricity, thus allowing the electricity generators to receive payment for generation that may otherwise go to waste. Unfortunately the electricity retailers are not encouraging / permitting this as they would probably lose some revenue as consumers use cheaper power. Trevor. Samiuela was suggesting regulating the price to keep it constant. This is actually counter-productive.

What we need is a system which encourages demand-side management, by lowering the price of electricity when it is cheap to produce and raising it when it is expensive to produce (e.g. high demand and/or no wind). The key to DSM is to pass those signals to the electricity consumer in close to real time so they can choose when to use electricity and when to defer that use or choose to use other energy sources (such as gas, coal, or biomass). Ideally this would be automated. By giving the consumer (house-hold or commercial/inductrial) a financial incentive to use electricity when it is available and to install the necessary equipment, the peaks in demand are flattened and there is less wasted energy. This may be as simple as having a second thermostat on a hot water cylinder to boost the temperature higher than normal when the power is cheap plus an extra ripple-control channel on the power metering.

In general DSM leads to slight decreases in the efficiency of usage of electricity, but overall it leads to efficiency gains as more energy is used when available so it doesn’t have to be stored in some other system or generated using less efficient plant.

It also reduces the dips in the spot price of electricity, thus allowing the electricity generators to receive payment for generation that may otherwise go to waste.

Unfortunately the electricity retailers are not encouraging / permitting this as they would probably lose some revenue as consumers use cheaper power.

Trevor.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32791 Trevor29 Thu, 25 Oct 2007 07:38:12 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32791 While it seems reasonable to assume that around half the prime wind generation sites are in the South Island, that doesn't mean that half the new wind generation will be in the South Island. What is more likely is that more of the prime sites in the North Island will be used, since this avoids the transmission line losses/constraints. However the Cook Strait link will still be a major constraint as other sources will be needed when the wind isn't blowing (enough) in the North Island. This is one reason that I would like to see more geothermal generation plant installed and operated more on a load-following mode rather than installing just enough plant to utilise the geothermal resource and operating it close to 100% capacity. Trevor. While it seems reasonable to assume that around half the prime wind generation sites are in the South Island, that doesn’t mean that half the new wind generation will be in the South Island. What is more likely is that more of the prime sites in the North Island will be used, since this avoids the transmission line losses/constraints. However the Cook Strait link will still be a major constraint as other sources will be needed when the wind isn’t blowing (enough) in the North Island. This is one reason that I would like to see more geothermal generation plant installed and operated more on a load-following mode rather than installing just enough plant to utilise the geothermal resource and operating it close to 100% capacity.

Trevor.

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]]> By: alistair http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32747 alistair Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:46:01 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32747 As I recall Kevyn, the blackouts in the 70s were associated with a spike in imported oil prices as well as low lake levels... am I wrong? Pertinent to the discussion : this piece from the Financial Times, on the effect of privatization of gas and electricity in Europe on consumer prices. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/29869d28-7fe1-11dc-b075-0000779fd2ac.html As I recall Kevyn, the blackouts in the 70s were associated with a spike in imported oil prices as well as low lake levels… am I wrong?

Pertinent to the discussion : this piece from the Financial Times, on the effect of privatization of gas and electricity in Europe on consumer prices.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/29869d28-7fe1-11dc-b075-0000779fd2ac.html

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]]> By: alistair http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32745 alistair Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:43:17 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32745 Thank you for those links Trevor... Excellent sources. So, the main emerging problem with new wind capacity appears to be the lag in transmitting it around the South Island, and, arguably, lack of capacity in the link to the N.I. Both these elements seem to relate to inertia and lack of planning in the transmission sector (the S.I. hasn't seen any big new generation development in the last 20 years, so they've got rusty). Since there is already excess generation capacity in the South and excess consumption in the North, for obvious and structural reasons, and assuming that at least half the prime wind sites are in the SI, it's logical that new wind developments will exacerbate the imbalance, i.e. increase the transport requirement. On a national scale, it's clear that there is enough hydro to balance a greatly expanded wind sector. What's more, a reinforced Cook Strait link will enable wind to take up an increasing baseload role (if the wind don't blow in Taranaki, it's quite likely it's still blowin' in Otago). Thank you for those links Trevor… Excellent sources. So, the main emerging problem with new wind capacity appears to be the lag in transmitting it around the South Island, and, arguably, lack of capacity in the link to the N.I. Both these elements seem to relate to inertia and lack of planning in the transmission sector (the S.I. hasn’t seen any big new generation development in the last 20 years, so they’ve got rusty).

Since there is already excess generation capacity in the South and excess consumption in the North, for obvious and structural reasons, and assuming that at least half the prime wind sites are in the SI, it’s logical that new wind developments will exacerbate the imbalance, i.e. increase the transport requirement. On a national scale, it’s clear that there is enough hydro to balance a greatly expanded wind sector. What’s more, a reinforced Cook Strait link will enable wind to take up an increasing baseload role (if the wind don’t blow in Taranaki, it’s quite likely it’s still blowin’ in Otago).

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]]> By: samiuela http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32738 samiuela Wed, 24 Oct 2007 11:06:58 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32738 Kevyn, I can't remember blackouts being any more common in the 1970s or 1980s. I'm not saying there were less blackouts, I am just very skeptical of your claim of regular cycles of blackouts. Maybe you were living in a rural area, not a city? I also dispute your claim of savage price increases ... if the electricity market is such a success, why haven't we seen big price cuts associated with the so called "market efficiency"? Free market proponents always make claims like yours. They would have us believe that pre-1984 was the dark ages, and that everything was so much worse than it is today. Of course lots of things have improved in the last 25 years, but to make the claim that this is solely because of free market "reforms" (and to neglect the influence of many other factors, such as improving technology) is very biased. Kevyn,

I can’t remember blackouts being any more common in the 1970s or 1980s. I’m not saying there were less blackouts, I am just very skeptical of your claim of regular cycles of blackouts. Maybe you were living in a rural area, not a city? I also dispute your claim of savage price increases … if the electricity market is such a success, why haven’t we seen big price cuts associated with the so called “market efficiency”?

Free market proponents always make claims like yours. They would have us believe that pre-1984 was the dark ages, and that everything was so much worse than it is today. Of course lots of things have improved in the last 25 years, but to make the claim that this is solely because of free market “reforms” (and to neglect the influence of many other factors, such as improving technology) is very biased.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32719 Trevor29 Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:28:08 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32719 There are a number of articles on Wind generation and related issues in the latest Energy Watch: http://www.energywatch.org.nz/issues/EW45_8-2007.pdf particularly pages 29-33. On page 29, Contact Energy is quoted as warning that it would have to spill water from its Clyde and Roxburgh stations if additional wind generation [in the South Island] was put in place without increased transmission line capacity. Trevor. There are a number of articles on Wind generation and related issues in the latest Energy Watch:
http://www.energywatch.org.nz/issues/EW45_8-2007.pdf
particularly pages 29-33.

On page 29, Contact Energy is quoted as warning that it would have to spill water from its Clyde and Roxburgh stations if additional wind generation [in the South Island] was put in place without increased transmission line capacity.

Trevor.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32717 Trevor29 Wed, 24 Oct 2007 06:06:42 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32717 Link to MED Wind Integration final report http://www.med.govt.nz/upload/9548/final.pdf or http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/MultipageDocumentTOC____4317.aspx as requested by Alistair Trevor. Link to MED Wind Integration final report
http://www.med.govt.nz/upload/9548/final.pdf or
http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/MultipageDocumentTOC____4317.aspx

as requested by Alistair

Trevor.

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]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32691 Kevyn Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:10:12 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32691 samiuela, Your heresy was practiced from the 1950s to the 1990s. It was an unmitigated disaster with regular cycles of blackouts and savage price increases. This was all because of the one flaw in your idea. The decisions about electricity generation should have been made by engineers but they were actually made by shortsighted politicians, focused on winning this election and we'll worry about the next election when we come to it. samiuela, Your heresy was practiced from the 1950s to the 1990s. It was an unmitigated disaster with regular cycles of blackouts and savage price increases. This was all because of the one flaw in your idea. The decisions about electricity generation should have been made by engineers but they were actually made by shortsighted politicians, focused on winning this election and we’ll worry about the next election when we come to it.

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]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32690 Kevyn Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:01:39 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32690 Trevor, A few tens of km when there isn't enough windspeed to drive a wind turbine. Hundreds of km on windy days. I assume, from the Swedish claims that their acid lakes were a result of Britain adopting tall smoke stacks as part of it's Clean Air Act, that the Swedes have solid evidence that constant drizel doesn't make the sulphur fall on Britain, and that the winds are actually pushing these plumes all the way across the North Sea, and that smokestack hieght is definitely a critical factor. I know in industrial boilers the flue gases are not allowed to fall below 170c as this would allow the steam to condense and cause acid rain within the flue. I don't know if this is the case with power stations using pulverisers because the moisture is extracted before combustion. Anyway, in winter the water vapour lets you see how the flue gases from factory stacks disperse, and they rise until they cool to ambient temp. But that is just my observation, the Swedish research on the movement of acid rainclouds is objective and respected. Trevor, A few tens of km when there isn’t enough windspeed to drive a wind turbine. Hundreds of km on windy days. I assume, from the Swedish claims that their acid lakes were a result of Britain adopting tall smoke stacks as part of it’s Clean Air Act, that the Swedes have solid evidence that constant drizel doesn’t make the sulphur fall on Britain, and that the winds are actually pushing these plumes all the way across the North Sea, and that smokestack hieght is definitely a critical factor.

I know in industrial boilers the flue gases are not allowed to fall below 170c as this would allow the steam to condense and cause acid rain within the flue. I don’t know if this is the case with power stations using pulverisers because the moisture is extracted before combustion. Anyway, in winter the water vapour lets you see how the flue gases from factory stacks disperse, and they rise until they cool to ambient temp. But that is just my observation, the Swedish research on the movement of acid rainclouds is objective and respected.

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]]> By: Mark52 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32689 Mark52 Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:01:29 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32689 Just that the Private sector is efficient - a price watchdog is not out of order. My experience of the Public Sector - innaccurate, innefficient, can't change, unwieldly, breaks down, gets it wrong and won't admit it. Nz's consumers probably want the opposite of all those things. Be nice if a NZ private company could get it right. Keeps all our money here aye? Just that the Private sector is efficient – a price watchdog is not out of order.
My experience of the Public Sector – innaccurate, innefficient, can’t change, unwieldly, breaks down, gets it wrong and won’t admit it.
Nz’s consumers probably want the opposite of all those things.
Be nice if a NZ private company could get it right.
Keeps all our money here aye?

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]]> By: alistair http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32685 alistair Tue, 23 Oct 2007 13:12:33 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32685 Hahaha! Heresy indeed. Burn him! Has anyone done a cost/benefit analysis of the privatization of NZ's electricity sector? Without ideological prejudice? It's not good enough to say "Well of COURSE the private sector is more efficient" because of the railways... nor to say "of COURSE state ownership is better" cos there are probably counter-examples too... I've been doing some work recently for Electrabel, who used to be the Belgian state monopoly electrical outfit, and are now, among other things, a niche actor in the French electricity market. They are almost all hydro, having the Rhone and various small mountain dams. It sort of offends me that these are managed for private profit, rather than for overall national benefit (though you could argue that they contribute to that too, through the magic of market forces and the spot electricity price). If the spot electricity price is what you make your profits on, that can lead to some pretty skewed priorities and investment decisions. We don't even need to mention Enron to work that out. Hahaha! Heresy indeed. Burn him!

Has anyone done a cost/benefit analysis of the privatization of NZ’s electricity sector? Without ideological prejudice? It’s not good enough to say “Well of COURSE the private sector is more efficient” because of the railways… nor to say “of COURSE state ownership is better” cos there are probably counter-examples too…

I’ve been doing some work recently for Electrabel, who used to be the Belgian state monopoly electrical outfit, and are now, among other things, a niche actor in the French electricity market. They are almost all hydro, having the Rhone and various small mountain dams. It sort of offends me that these are managed for private profit, rather than for overall national benefit (though you could argue that they contribute to that too, through the magic of market forces and the spot electricity price).

If the spot electricity price is what you make your profits on, that can lead to some pretty skewed priorities and investment decisions. We don’t even need to mention Enron to work that out.

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]]> By: samiuela http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32684 samiuela Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:33:56 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32684 Trevor29, There is another possibility. This may be considered heresy now days, but we could simply regulate the electricity market, and say electricity can be sold for x cents per kilowatt hour. Perhaps we could go further, and say renewable energy can be sold for more than non-renewable energy? In fact, maybe all electricity generation should be nationalised, and let decisions about electricity generation be made by engineers? It has always struck me than electricity generation is one of those areas where deliberate planning can provide much better results than leaving things up to the "free market". Trevor29,

There is another possibility. This may be considered heresy now days, but we could simply regulate the electricity market, and say electricity can be sold for x cents per kilowatt hour. Perhaps we could go further, and say renewable energy can be sold for more than non-renewable energy?

In fact, maybe all electricity generation should be nationalised, and let decisions about electricity generation be made by engineers? It has always struck me than electricity generation is one of those areas where deliberate planning can provide much better results than leaving things up to the “free market”.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32683 Trevor29 Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:47:13 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32683 "The obvious place that comes to mind is lakes Benmore and Aviemore in the Central Waitaki valley." Sounds good to me. However a location in the North Island would be better, given the large amount of hydro in the South Island and the smelter being down here too. Trevor. “The obvious place that comes to mind is lakes Benmore and Aviemore in the Central Waitaki valley.”

Sounds good to me. However a location in the North Island would be better, given the large amount of hydro in the South Island and the smelter being down here too.

Trevor.

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]]> By: kahikatea http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32682 kahikatea Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:30:37 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32682 Trevor29 Says: October 23rd, 2007 at 10:24 pm >I am not aware of any pumped storage in NZ and I wonder how many suitable sites we actually have. The problem isn’t so much finding a lake for the top - it is finding a source of water to pump up into the lake. The obvious place that comes to mind is lakes Benmore and Aviemore in the Central Waitaki valley. Lake Benmore is at the top of the Benmore Dam, and Aviemore is roughly at the bottom of the Benmore Dam. They're both artificial lakes, built for electricity generation. Trevor29 Says:
October 23rd, 2007 at 10:24 pm

>I am not aware of any pumped storage in NZ and I wonder how many suitable sites we actually have. The problem isn’t so much finding a lake for the top – it is finding a source of water to pump up into the lake.

The obvious place that comes to mind is lakes Benmore and Aviemore in the Central Waitaki valley. Lake Benmore is at the top of the Benmore Dam, and Aviemore is roughly at the bottom of the Benmore Dam. They’re both artificial lakes, built for electricity generation.

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32681 Trevor29 Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:24:03 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32681 Alistair wrote: "Does that happen often Trev?" Sorry, I can't give you an answer on that, but I do know it happens now and as we increase our intermittant generation, it will happen more. I have a number of sites I could give you, but not just now. The hydro contributes a bit to the problem because there are minimum water flows in some rivers. The fundamental problem is variable demand, so on a mild summer night, there is little demand (other than the smelter) but there can be considerably more generation. I am not aware of any pumped storage in NZ and I wonder how many suitable sites we actually have. The problem isn't so much finding a lake for the top - it is finding a source of water to pump up into the lake. I'd guess that for a high enough price we could build it, but other solutions will be more cost effective at first. Trevor. Alistair wrote: “Does that happen often Trev?”

Sorry, I can’t give you an answer on that, but I do know it happens now and as we increase our intermittant generation, it will happen more.

I have a number of sites I could give you, but not just now.

The hydro contributes a bit to the problem because there are minimum water flows in some rivers. The fundamental problem is variable demand, so on a mild summer night, there is little demand (other than the smelter) but there can be considerably more generation.

I am not aware of any pumped storage in NZ and I wonder how many suitable sites we actually have. The problem isn’t so much finding a lake for the top – it is finding a source of water to pump up into the lake. I’d guess that for a high enough price we could build it, but other solutions will be more cost effective at first.

Trevor.

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]]> By: alistair http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32680 alistair Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:11:23 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32680 Does that happen often Trev? Is there any site where one can get numbers, statistics etc. on generation, transmission, consumption in NZ? The subject fascinates me. But the sheer mass of hydro running as base-load generation would surely negate the effect? Otherwise, the opportunities for pumped storage in NZ must be pretty limitless... is anyone doing it yet? Does that happen often Trev? Is there any site where one can get numbers, statistics etc. on generation, transmission, consumption in NZ? The subject fascinates me. But the sheer mass of hydro running as base-load generation would surely negate the effect? Otherwise, the opportunities for pumped storage in NZ must be pretty limitless… is anyone doing it yet?

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]]> By: Trevor29 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32678 Trevor29 Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:03:32 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/index.php/2007/10/18/big-wind-to-the-rescue/#comment-32678 What hasn't been mentioned is that adding 650 MegaWatts of wind generation will increase the frequency and duration of periods when the intermittant and must-run generation exceeds the demand, and the spot price of electricity falls to practically zero. This will impact on other generators, but we need those other generators to provide power when insufficient wind is available. There are many solutions. Pumped hydro storage is one. So are flywheels and flow-batteries. However better demand-side management could reduce this problem at lower cost and higher efficiency, with shorter lead times. This includes running refrigeration harder when there is spare generation. It can also include using electricity for heating instead of natural gas or coal in industrial processes depending on the electricity prices. Trevor. What hasn’t been mentioned is that adding 650 MegaWatts of wind generation will increase the frequency and duration of periods when the intermittant and must-run generation exceeds the demand, and the spot price of electricity falls to practically zero. This will impact on other generators, but we need those other generators to provide power when insufficient wind is available.

There are many solutions. Pumped hydro storage is one. So are flywheels and flow-batteries. However better demand-side management could reduce this problem at lower cost and higher efficiency, with shorter lead times. This includes running refrigeration harder when there is spare generation. It can also include using electricity for heating instead of natural gas or coal in industrial processes depending on the electricity prices.

Trevor.

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