Police raids
There is still a fog around what the police are up to today.
I’ve heard that the Wellington CIB turned up at various Save Happy Valley people’s houses this morning in Christchurch, but had no warrants and couldn’t talk their way into people’s houses so were sent away.
 128 Abel Smith st was raided by police waving the Terrorism Suppression Act. 128 is a centre for the anti-bypass movt and many others in Wellington.
And various other raids around the country. Still waiting to hear the full story.
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October 15th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
I heard “arms cashes”
October 15th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
It’s great to see that they are finally cracking down on the enviromental extremists! That ’save happy valley’ coillition are nutters, tying themselfs to railway tracks to slow down a delivery. Naturally the next step would be for them to do something more dangerous to get attention. It’s no wonder they refused the police entry to their house, tho no doubt they will be back with warents.
And apperently some of the anti-war protestors were arrested in this crack-down, described by the police commisioner as “nessesary to ensure public saftey”. I can see many of these people coming out with the old ends justifies the means arguement for using naplam in order to stop a war! Probably the same people who protested on ANZAC day.
But i wouldnt Russel, you’ll still get into parliment next year! Anyone who already votes green is crazy enough not to care about this sought of militant activity, so long as capitalism is eliminated and big bussiness is shut down. Better go into hiding until this boils over Russel, in case there are more arrests.
October 15th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
caches…… and molotov cocktails… nothing serious. No need for panic. It could be time to review the more radical elements of Green policy however…
eg support for tino rangitira tanga and ratification of the Maori version of the Treaty (and all that that implies). People need clear bounderies.
October 15th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Of course jh!!! That must be why Kieth Locke was advocating that people should be allowed to practise Bin Ladenism in parliment! Because he was secretly involved in the plot to Blow up a coal power plant or something. Better tell the police. Too late, he’s probably in Mexico by now.
Speaking of which, how did these pot head’s raise enough money to buy their arm’s cashes? Either selling pot or carbon credits, perhaps both.
And to think we scaled down the bypass project because of what these people who are now in jail said! Man we were conned.
October 15th, 2007 at 7:20 pm
John Minto say’s if they have guns and they have broken the law that’s fair enough, but we’ll have a fund to defend them and their loved ones… [not verbatem]…. CloseUp TV One
October 15th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Well the solution is obvious isnt it jh? Sell more carbon credits and pot to pay the legal fees. BTW does anyone using this blog know if i can sell carbon credits from my front lawn?
October 15th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Will we see an official response from the Greens on this issue deploring the use of arms?….I will not hold my breath.
I suspect you will say nothing about it as it involves racist maori groups.
October 15th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Typical - I leave New Zealand just before they throw all the hippies & racists in jail. Bad timing as usual
October 15th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
“And various other raids around the country. Still waiting to hear the full story.”
you’re closer to the horses mouth than we are………….
October 15th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
Here is your chance to come clean, Russel
http://tumeke.blogspot.com/2007/10/shit-is-really-going-to-hit-fan.htm l
I am sure you lot know something
October 16th, 2007 at 2:06 am
I’m not that happy about rainbow valley being raided for two reasons 1, they have a very ligament cause in trying to stop fossil fuels being burned and 2, they were apparently going to rid us of this evil helen (its not so much what she does as what she doesn’t).
Talking about police raids? did anyone else watch 60 minutes and that APPALLING story about the fertilizer companies paying off the Commerce Commission to prosecute Ewan Campbell who uses a alternative method. I am disgusted that this, what with 10% of the population being payed by the government i would expect someone to have stopped this prosecution. I hope the greens get right on this matter as the pollution that the some farmers do is unacceptable (in my mind) with runoff into streams.
As for keith locke i think he should talk more about what the people in this country need instead of what people who want to come and live here want.
October 16th, 2007 at 2:38 am
No fog really, Russel. Just an enforced reunion of the ‘06 grads of Tame Iti’s paramilitary college. Or something to that effect these links are actually as well informed as they seem to be.
http://home.nzcity.co.nz/news/article.aspx?id=77760&fm=newsarticle,nrh l
Whenua, Fenua, Enua, Vanua -
Revolutionary Anti Colonialism & Anti Capitalism in the Pacific
http://uriohau.blogspot.com/2007/10/state-reppression-in-aotearoa.html
October 16th, 2007 at 8:11 am
Perhaps all this is just a smokescreen for the Electoral Finance Bill currently going thru Parliament.
So why are the Greens supporting this bill which will make Mussolini’s Italy look like a holiday camp ??
So much for social justice blah, blah, blah.
Even the Law Society have come out against it.
You people have really made a big mistake this time.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:18 am
Buzz on Target: Personal Freedom is under unprecedented attack from the EFB currently before Parliament.
Further upcoming Legislation is actually worse in this regard.
Totally Agree Buzz - Total Priority of Focus Needed. Thank You!
October 16th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Oh, come on people! Whats the point of this thread if no one is going to try and justify the save happy valley coilition or the anti-bypass movement using assult weapons to get further their objectives? Russel, help us out!
October 16th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Nick you actually have no idea what you are talking about. I can’t comment on the supposed secret hiding places in the Urerewas, but it is drawing a long bow to start from the premise “there are dangerous Maori activists with guns in the Urerewas” to “we must arrest peacful activists in Wellington”. Perhaps the police don’t actually like pushing around people who can shoot back, so instead try to make out they are heroes by hassling innocent unarmed activists. The anti-war group in Wellilngton did no harm to the public safety at all. Even when they succeeded in closing down Te Papa, it was done in an orderly manner with no violence or threat of violence. I know. I was there. I have also regularly been to the house in Abel Smith St, and I am certain there were no guns hidden anywhere. Again, I was there.
October 16th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Kiore is right. I know the Save Happy Valley people and they are an incredibly neat bunch of people who are genuinely working for a better more peaceful society. In no way could any of their protest actions be seen as “terrorist” and its very very important to distinguish between the two.
Social activism has always had an important role to play in increasing public awareness and bringing about needed change in society, if people become too scared to protest then we will lose much of makes us a democratic society.
October 16th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
I see they missed you two; Awarua Bay and Kiore on the first sweep, better sleep in your clothes tonight tho!
Um Kiore, your conspiricy theorys about the police being afraid of Maori activists in the mountains because they can shoot back, so they then go into wellington to arrest some people who have done nothing wrong is just plain silly, the police dont raid houses for no reason. I know you hippies hate the police, but they arent conspiring against New Zealand just to make themselfs look good. And is this the same anti-war group who protested on ANZAC day? If so you make me sick.
Awarua Bay, the save happy valley people tied themselfs to a train track when they knew that a train filled with coal was coming (Didnt they also scale a building to put a banner up, or was that greenpeace?). I would call that dangerous and stupid. And having not been on the 6:00 news for a while they were bound to be prepairing for something even more dangerous and stupid. Kidnapping Helen Clark perhaps?
October 16th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Nick, you are living in a fantasy world, an apple pie world where the police are wholesome and clean. Do the names Shipton and Dewar mean anything to you? Do you actually think the Bay of Plenty police are a shining example of virtue? Do you really think a cop can’t lie? What basis do you have for calling me a hippy? Have you seen me? Do you know my name? Do you in fact have any evidence at all for your incoherent ranting?
Similalry, do you have any evidence at all that the Save Happy Valley people and the anti-war protestors have guns? Ie have you seen them? Did they carry their guns Rambo-like at Anzac day? Have you or anyone you know been shot/burned/stabbed by these alleged weopons? Or are you just prepared to believe anyone in a suit?
Somebody is being very silly and naive but it certainly is not me. Sorry to prick your bubble but this is the real world and there is no room in it for adolescent fantasies such as the infallibility of the police.
October 16th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
nick c..thanks for the belly-laugh..!
(heh-heh..!)
“.. the save happy valley people tied themselfs to a train track when they knew that a train filled with coal was coming
(Didnt they also scale a building to put a banner up, or was that greenpeace?).
I would call that dangerous and stupid. And having not been on the 6:00 news for a while they were bound to be prepairing for something even more dangerous and stupid.
Kidnapping Helen Clark perhaps?..”
you aren’t one of the ‘usual loopies’ posting under another moniker..are you..?
you seem to be as ‘barking’ as most of them..
(but funny with it..!..which is a ‘blessing’..eh..?…)
a new comedic/farcical-character/label has entered the lexicon..
‘the happy-valley-terrorist’..
(say it loud..!..and say it proud..!..)
i want a t-shirt..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 16th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Nick C said: so they then go into wellington to arrest some people who have done nothing wrong is just plain silly, the police dont raid houses for no reason.
I’m with kiore1 on this one Nick. I’m afraid in the real world the Police do this sort of thing. Well, I suppose they did have a reason - it was to harass and intimidate those who were politically opposed to certain actions of the Government of the day and were actively but peacefully protesting against these.
I’ve sued them on two occasions for false imprisonment and other actions in tort in instances of this type of overkill and they settled out of court. One of those involved a dodgy search warrant where they had actually lied on the warrant application to get the Court registrar to issue it.
BB said:Will we see an official response from the Greens on this issue deploring the use of arms?
Yep, here it is BB. Happy with that?
October 16th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
While the greens don’t condone violence their treaty policies are sympathetic to the ideas behind Maori activism, such as the ratification of the Maori version of the Treaty and all that that implies….).
October 16th, 2007 at 2:33 pm
Yes, the greens are sympathetic to IDEAS behind Maori activism. But this does not follow logically that they are sympathetic to the METHODS used by Maori activists. The Greens are sympathetic to a foreign policy that involves far less interference by the US, but that does not mean they support the methods of groups like Al Quaeda that share this policy. In other words, even if we accept the premises below
Group A supports X
Group B supports X
Group B is violent
then it is a non sequitur to conclude
Group A is violent
In the same way we could argue that ACT supports the santity of private property. Many of those who support the sanctity of private property are unbalanced nutters with shotguns who will shoot anyone on sight coming into their property. It certainly does not follow logically that ACT support violence.
October 16th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Proudly so too, jh - although I would suggest constitutional recognition, rather than ratification, is the correct term.
At international common law, any ambiguity between texts of a document will be resolved according to the principle of Contra Proferentem i.e that the indigenous language takes precedence.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Keith Locke’s press release talks about a “chilling effect”. How cynical. These words were recently used to describe the Electoral Finance Bill’s effect on freedom of speech.
NZ Law Society President John Marshall QC in his submission said “people could easily find themselves breaking the law unwittingly simply by participating in debates on election issues”.
By way of example, he cited clause 5(1)(iii), which essentially provides that a statement by any person, which takes a position on an election issue, is an ‘election advertisement’.”
In its written submission, the Society noted that the bill seemed to be inconsistent with the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 in that it limited freedom of expression in a way that could not be justified in a free and democratic society.
The Society submitted that the committee should recommend that the bill not proceed and that the issue should be approached afresh.
“The Society is of the view that the bill should be withdrawn,â€? John Marshall said. “It is not capable of being patched up. The policy-makers should start again, with clear objectives, and with better regard for the right of free speech and the right to participate freely and openly in the democratic process, both of which rights are basic to our democratic ideals. ”
So why is Keith Locke and the Green Party supporting this Bill?
And why was the Human Rights Commission denied the chance to speak in support of their submission?
I am ashamed to be a Green Party member.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
I would argue that the treaty was floored
a. It was made when Maori were in the overwhelming majority.
b. Hobson didn’t want the job, communication was difficult, they had to come away with a result.
c. Thus the deal was It’s your country (as before)… but the Queen will make sure your step brother and sisters don’t misbehave, and you will be protected from invasion by the French. Only the British Government will buy land etc.
Which in todays world means pakeha are like foriegners living in someone elses country. We own, what we own, but everything else belongs to iwi (oceans and beaches, national parks, rivers lakes)…. that’s what GPANZ policy implies.
But Maori aren’t cut from the same cloth as the rest of us, Maori wont stop us (blah! blah!) because Maori culture (blah! blah!).
[Michael King is too conservative for the Greens. ….. There seems to be a healthy Marxist influence (or something)]
October 16th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
I actually was not that impressed with Keith Locke’s press release. While he did not actually say so in so many words, the implication seems to have been that the activists were actually guilty of possessing offensive weapons, whereas in fact this allegation was pulled out of the addled brain of some police officer pretending to be a hero.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Well, maybe, jh. But it was also the Maori version that the vast majority of Rangatira signed.
If I go to China and negotiate a contract, am under pressure by my employer to finalise it, don’t know the language, get a mate of mine to do the translation, he stuffs it up, and I go ahead and sign the contract, does that nullify it if I later decide it wasn’t what I meant it to be? No chance - it’s my tough luck because I’ve made the mistake.
And your conclusions about what it means today re ownership only apply if there has been continued customary occupation and use, which in most cases there hasn’t, or if the Treaty has been abrogated to deny that customary ocupation and use. Anyway, the Treaty is largely about sovereignty and governance, rather than ownership - just like the Crown doesn’t purport to own my house!
October 16th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
What evidence do i have that kiore is a hippe?
1. He went to the houses that were raided a number of times.
2. He has an irrational fear of the police
3. He protested at Te Papa and has sympathy for the people who protested on ANZAC day (one of them possibly)
Consider i have never meet you and that these are about the only three things i know about you. I am begining to get a picture in my head
When talk about the recent cases where the police have been arrested we are talking about the actions of individual officers. Do you seriously believe that Howard Broad and the rest of the police hierachy is involved in a conpiricy with the government to crack down on its political opponents, and if it were wouldnt it target the right, not the far left? My explanation of these events is that the police suspected that these groups had weapons and were a threat to the public and had good evidence to support this belief. Yours is nothing more then crazy ranting about a conspiricy to crack down on the governments political opponents. Are you arrogant enough to believe the govt feel threatend by your lot?
And if you did protest on ANZAC day, violently or otherwise you make me sick.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Nick, I’m not saying this is the case now, but it has happened before - in 1981 with the Springbok tour when Muldoon cynically manipulated the Police and the SIS to win the election later that year.
It’s a fine line between the Police having the powers necessary to combat crime (including terrorism) and the unnecessary impingement of Police powers on the rights of individuals to go about their lives without harassment.
Having been on the receiving and of abuse of Police powers - lying on search warrant applications and unlawfully arresting people going about their lawful business solely because of their politicial activism - I find all this stuff going on with phone taps and email and text message interception pretty scary.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
“I got arrested for having an AK-47 even though im suppost to be a pacifist and all i got was this lousy t-shirt”
October 16th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
A message for the right-wing contributors to frog blog (many of whom seem to be very inexperienced, and unaware of the regularly repeated behaviour of self called “Homo sapiens” on this Planet of ours) …
“NOW IS A TIME TO LISTEN TO OTHERS WHO ARE WISER!”
Here are a couple of quotes:
“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”
(attributed to George Santayana)
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”
(Margaret Mead)
My response to the current news?
Today I have contacted my MP (who is a Cabinet Minister) to express my concern and I will meet with her in the weekend.
I will be in Cathedral Square (Christchurch) at 5pm this afternoon, and then at future rallies.
I am (and will be) contacting like minded people, and continuing to express my concerns as appropriate.
I suggest that now is a good time to frequent frogblog to learn, rather than to insult. (It would also be a good idea to think and learn about human behaviour and a lot more about human history (and, very importanly, about the history of humans in Aotearoa/New Zealand.)
Michal King’s “The Penguin History of New Zealand” and
Ranganui Walker’s “Ka Whawhai Tonu Matou (Struggle Without End)”
are just two of the books that are worth looking at.
I suggest that now is a good time to compare the society we have (and must preserve) with other societies elsewhere in the World …
Compare the USA and the way it behaves with (for example) Scandinavian countries …
We have a “TREASURE” here. Let’s not loose it!
eredwen
October 16th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Toad- i dont know what you are suggesting, but what others are suggesting is that there is a conspiricy between Helen Clark and Howard Broad to crack down on New Zealands pacifists. As we dont know the specific evidence against these pasifists we cant know what the scale of their crimes are, but conspiricies like this are just rediculous. I have faith in the police hierachy to only do something like this with stong evidence of crimes.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
but then again..nick c..there is a lot that makes you a tad bilious..eh..?
(and for some irrational reason..i am pleased to see a green party member voicing their feelings of shame at being tarred with that poxy/repressive legislation..
‘locke is ‘chilled’.?…indeed..!
as are some of us.!.as are some of us..!
except we are ‘chilled’/horrified at the actions of locke/the greens..
in their promotion of repression..
i repeat..had these proposed ’silencing’ laws been in place/force..
the anti-ge movement would have been dead in the water..
and new zealand would now be flooded with ge plants..
and where the feck are those (formerly very noisy) anti-g.e.ers..?
when they are needed..?
we feckin stepped up for you..?
(can’t they see this nose at the end of their faces..?
or are they just happy to sleepwalk into repression..)
and hey..!..what’s the bet..that after this legislation is passed/forced through..
that we will see a new wave of ge applications..
and a knackered/muted protest movement..
‘first they came for the pot-smokers’
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 16th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
I’m not quite sure what that post has to do with the debate eredwen. it was very philisophical, but all youve done is conjure 2 irrelivent quotes, talk about your afternoon. You havent acctually stated an opionon on the current situation…
October 16th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
toad Says:
October 16th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
If I go to China and negotiate a contract, am under pressure by my employer to finalise it, don’t know the language, get a mate of mine to do the translation, he stuffs it up, and I go ahead and sign the contract, does that nullify it if I later decide it wasn’t what I meant it to be? No chance - it’s my tough luck because I’ve made the mistake.
…………………………………..
If it were that simple and the context was apt, but it isn’t… the stability and level playing field approach we have now is arguably better, even if it did come about in a shonky sort of way.
==================================
And your conclusions about what it means today re ownership only apply if there has been continued customary occupation and use, which in most cases there hasn’t, or if the Treaty has been abrogated to deny that customary ocupation and use. Anyway, the Treaty is largely about sovereignty and governance, rather than ownership - just like the Crown doesn’t purport to own my house!
—————————————
People need clear boundaries. Starting with the Maori version of the Treaty creates possibilities a mile wide ; who decides who has access to the marine resources (for example), since they will be in tribal territory?
October 16th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Do- gooder
A naive idealist who supports philanthropic or humanitarian causes or reforms.
(I would put the people behind the UN report in this category, and the people behind the Treaty as they promised more than they can deliver and people who call for the abolision of the State of Israel .. (give or take some detail) Create a mess and walk away).
October 16th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
Interesting to compare the contrasting treatments of the invasion of the Chathams by Ranganui Walker and Michael King. King uses it to point out that we should be balanced (we all have skeletons in the cupboard)* Walker calls it a myth used to justify colonisation….there’s part of the Problem.
* in a speech called Origons
October 16th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Eredwen wants us to
“….LISTEN TO OTHERS WHO ARE WISER!â€?
Bit partronising to think those who are right wing and green are not as wise as you - left wing and green.
Do I have to wait for the lights to come on? Better still, maybe I’m wiser and you just dont know by how much more so?
October 16th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
So in other words Nick has as much evidence that I am a hippie as he has that the activists in Wellington had guns - ie none at all. I am certainly glad his sort isn’t running the country - talk about guilt by association. A number of quite respectable people have been in 128 Abel Smith St, not all of whom agree with the protestors, yet Nick would have them all tossed in prison. A great advocate for law and order - not!
Whether you agree with the Anzac day protests is neither here nor there. there are a great many people who make me sick (some of whom I would actually agree with politically), but annoying me is not a crime - though perhaps you are arrogant enough to think nobody must ever burst your precious bubble or ruin your own fantasies.
By the way who says I have an “irrational fear” of the police. If their recent incompetence is anything to go by, they deserve derision rather than fear. Though perhaps you may ask Louise Nicholas and some others about whether their fear of the Bay of Plenty police is “irrational”. Next time some uniformed thug bursts into your place in the middle of the night or threatens to insert a large object inside you, and you are wetting yourself with terror, then ask yourself if your fear is “irrational”.
The prostests at Te Papa followed the same tradition of non-violent protests started by people like Ghandi and carried on in NZ by anti-tour protestors, animal rights protestors, native forest action and others. You may disagree with the causes, but this does not mean that those attending are “hippies”. Unlike you I was there (though it is a mark of arrogance that you seem to believe you know everything without any sort of credentials or evidence), and many of the protestors took time off work in order to attend. Most of the people there were intelligent loyal and dedicated, the type of attributes employers look for so it is no wonder they had well paid jobs.
October 16th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
My current view of turning over 128 is that it was a distraction for the media from turning over other houses that were serious.
I’m not sure whether I think the whole set of raids was a distraction.
If it was, I don’t know what it was a distraction from, so it seems to have worked
October 16th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Your right Kiore, i have no evidence that these people are guilty of anything. That’s because the police have not realised the details to the public yet, which they will do in due course. If they hold these people illegally without charge or evidence then will switch to your side, but that is not going to happen. I however simply refuse to believe that these people are guilty of nothing and that the police are breaking into these houses because Helen and Howard Broad ordered a crackdown of the far left.
I will say again, the incidents involving Louise Nicholas are incidents of individual police officers breaking the law. These people were arrested and prosecuted in a fair trial. To suggest that these incidents provide evidence that the police hierachy would conspire to do something that most commonly happens in North Korea or Zimbabwe is just stupid. That you are suggesting Helen Clark and Howard Broad are just as bad as Shipton is silly, i mean come on.
And the fact that anyone would denounce the rememberance of the people who died to make us free, who fought so that we might live in a better society is disgusting. They would be turning in their graves. You people claim that ANZAC day is a celebration of war. I didnt see any tanks at that memorial, all i saw was dedicated kiwi’s getting up early to thank those who fought and died to protect our freedom.
October 16th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
I doubt that this is about the environmentalists.
………………………………………………………………………………….
Here’s an interesting post from Kiwiblog:
# kiwi in america Says:
October 16th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Just caught up with the TVNZ footage plus print media. There is no mileage in this for Labour at all - reason: middle NZ has long suspected a hidden undercurrent of Maori radicalism that has existed on the fringes and now appears to have reared its ugly head in a way that stirs NZ out of its complacency and shatters the myth that its distance from the world has insulated it from these sorts of incidents. Make no mistake - in today’s politically charged environment where the police have feared to tread into areas with political overtones - to commit 100s of police over a 12 month period (and involve the SIS and other experts) would NEVER be done unless there was due cause for alarm. The fact that they intend to break new legal ground by considering prosecutions under the new post 9/11 anti-terrorism laws is also a pointer to the seriousness of the threats. These prosecutions must stand up in court. The SIS will be smarting about the Zouai situation and will have made doubly sure these people will do time.
The media will give ample air time/print space to the left wing activists (like Sykes and Minto) who will mutter “nothing to see - move along� or “police overreaction/brutality�. When prominent Maori (such as MP Flavell) weigh in with similar sentiments, that is where the damage lies for Labour as middle NZ forms a view that excessive pandering to Maori may have made it easier for radicals to thrive relatively unimpeded.
Another downside is the loss of innocence as a country seeing armed radicals proposing similar tactics to ETA in Spain or the Shining Path in Peru. The peripheral involvement of ‘peace’ activists and arnarchists posing as environmentalists exposing an ugly side to the the more extreme end of the Green movement that also leaves middle NZ feeling a little queasy.
The rise of violent crime that is evident with the recent crime stats is further seared into people’s pyches when they witness a big bust like this. All power to the NZ Police for acting pre-emptively.
October 16th, 2007 at 5:16 pm
I’m slightly left of center but compared to some of the Greens I look like Ghengis Khan.
October 16th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Nick you seem very quick to point out what “you people” think. Arrogance again. Who are “you people”? Do you mean Green Party supporters, people with curly hair, middle aged males, academics, those with IQ over 140, New Zealanders, people born in the UK, fans of Tolkien? I am a member of all these groups and others, which one are you referring to, and what evidence do you have that any members of these groups support the ANZAC day protests? I am neither confirming nor denying my involvement in the ANZAC day protests, are you arrogant enough to think that you think you can read my mind and know what I think when I never stated it.
In any event, your personal beliefs on ANZAC day are irrelevent, and it matters not a jot to me whether I make you sick or not. Arrogant and violent people who take delight in the roughing up of those who disagree with them make me sick, but I do not support arresting you for it. Some of the protestors are too self righteous for their own good, and they make me sick as well, but I am not so puffed up by my own importance that I consider offending my sensibilities to be a crime.
The independent report (commissioned by the way by Helen Clark) on the police actually had a number of things to say about general police culture, so the police rapes were not just an isolated incident, but were a symptom of the rot. And if I have an irrational fear of police, then what can I say about your irrational fear of protestors. To infer that someone who ties themselves to a railway line is going to get a gun and shoot somebody is plain silly. The protestors are not so stupid. They know that they would immediately lose credibility if they protested against killing by killing.
I had previously thought that the police raids may have been letitimate at least as far as the groups in the Urerewas are concerned. However, after chatting with some of my colleagues, who have lived in the Bay of Plenty longer than I have, I am having my doubts even about police competence in that department.
October 16th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Gerrit said: Bit partronising to think those who are right wing and green are not as wise as you - left wing and green.
Interesting comment, Gerrit. I guess my immediate response often tends to be a left wing one, because I came to the Greens around 17 years ago from a left wing background, but was disillusioned by the political left’s inaction on environmental issues.
But I am prepared to listen and learn, and sometimes I agree that policies that could be labeled “right-wing” may be more effective. For example, I’ve been convinced that a Kyoto credit trading regime is a better response to climate change, given that it allows developing countries to opt in, than my instinctive left wing response, which was to simply punitively tax the polluters in New Zealand, which would probably encourage them to just pass the cost on rather than modify their activities.
The Greens have come to this position as a Party too. So I don’t think we should necessarily talk about right-wing Greens and left-wing Greens - I think we should look to whatever policies will advance the interests of the Green Charter principles of ecological sustainability, social justice, appropriate decision-making and non-violence - wherever they sit on the left-right spectrum.
But I think the debate about the police surveillance and raids has got very little to do with the left-right spectrum. It sits on a very different spectrum - the authoritarian-libertarian one, which is about the extent to which the State should interfere in people’s lives. This is not an economic issue, it is an issue about personal freedom and privacy.
I know Tame Iti, and have had occasion to phone him on a few occasions -most recently in relation to the welfare of a mutual friend who (interestingly, in the context of this discussion) had been beaten up and thrown into a police cell overnight by police who presumed she was drunk when she was actually suffering an adverse effect from cancer medication).
Anyway, does the fact that I phoned him, and his phone calls have been intercepted, mean that I am a “known associate”? Could the Police have assumed that our conversation was some form of coded message, or just be pissed off with me because I talked to Tame about an incident that I thought the Police had seriously mishandled. Does my contact with Tame over this mean I am under electronic surveillance too? Do my communications with various people in the Green Party also get caught in any such surveillance?
These are the scary issues, and I hope some of you who identify yourselves as “right wing” and/or “libertarian” on this blog will appreciate this. Regardless of the evidence, and whether anyone is actually convicted on the charges that may be brought, does the “threat” justify the impingement upon my privacy and that of the vast number of other people whose communications with those who have been arrested have been intercepted by the Police?
October 16th, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Yes kiore, im refering to people who read lord of the rings. Use that 140 IQ brain to work out that i am refering to the far left, more specifically to the people arrested for fire-arms charges. My “fear” of the protestors is based on the fact that four have just been arrested on fire arms charges:
“Police believed that each faction of those connected to the camps planned to hit targets spesific to their own interests in coordinated attacks aimed at causing maximum chaos”
“All four arrested in wellington lived at different addresses. Between them they were charged with possession of of large calibre semi-automatic weapons, molotov cocktails, shotguns and rifles” (this refers to the so called pacifists) Both of these are from todays Dominion Post.
Now lets be very clear (yes or no answer), are you saying that these charges are entirely made up and that there is absolutlely no substance to them, and further that these charges are made up by Howard Broad or some other high ranking policeman in some sort of conspiricy against the far left? Broad has put his job on the line with these arrests as 3 news pointed out, and he sounded confident he had the right people at the press confrences. If they all turn out to be based on nothing almost everyone will call for his resignation, so i am no convinced as you believe that this is more police brutality.
And regarding my views on ANZAC day, these are the views shared by the vast majority of New Zealanders and you know it. An opinion poll immediatly after the protests showed that 85% of New Zealanders did not believe that people should be protesting on ANZAC day. Meaning not only do they disagree with you, they dont even think you should be allowed to protest. I know it may sound silly to you but people believe in this sort of worship of the people who did these nobel things for us. There is also a thing called “patriotism” But i wont confuse you further.
October 16th, 2007 at 7:09 pm
my bad sorry
October 16th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Toad
As it happens I am not happy with the statement released by Kieth Locke, as usual it makes excuses for those maori that wish to “kill the whites”.
Ten years ago a very good friend of mine from Scotland came to visit NZ on a working holiday, (if he had have been a convicted terrorist he could have stayed for ever) he mentioned to me on many occasions that there was a very high level of racial tension in NZ and that all of the aggression seemed to be coming from maori, one drunken evening he said that he would not be surprised if the situation deteriorated into civil war within 15-20 years…it seems he was right.
Unless the govt (and it does not matter which govt) comes down hard on these terrorists then I fear for the future of New Zealand.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Kiore
Please come and protest at our Anzac day parade this year, I have many many friends who would love to have a chat with you.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:19 pm
Hmm BB - not as much tension as between the Scots and the English who still occupy their country, I suspect. Go the SNP!
Anyway, back to Aoteroa/New Zealand “coming down hard” on Maori nationalists will only invoke more militancy, and exacerbate your friend’s fear of civil war.
What need to happen is to go back to te Tiriti (te Reo version) and actually start to genuinely negotiate not just grievance issues but constitutional issues. Deal with the grievances and constitutional issues, and you deal with the potential threats. Let the grievances fester, as they have for 167 years already, and eventually there will be people who become so desperate that we’ll see some real terrorism/freedom fighters here.
Witness Iraq, Ireland, Israel/Palestine, Catelonia, apartheid South Africa, Aceh, West Papua… the list goes on. When oppressed people become desperate, they will sometimes take desperate measures. I don’t think this country wants to go there, but making martyrs through a “get tough on dissent” approach will surely take it there.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Toad
What needs to happen is for maori to stop living in the past, these ‘grievances” seem to miraculously disappear when ever a few million bucks is tossed their way.
If you really think that the majority of Kiwi’s will allow the treaty (it should be done away with in my opinion anyway) to be renegotiated then you are sadly mistaken.
If you go down that track then you risk a backlash, maori are not the only race of people who will feel that they need to take desperate measures, martyrdom is not reserved exclusively for those of brown skin.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Toad
PS….maori…Opressed people????….now that is stretching things a bit far don’t you think?
October 16th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Little bro, I might take you up on that, where you at? Since the first protests in recent times there’s been a wonderful change in emphasis to remember the horror of war in our past rather than mindlessly praise it’s participants. It’s important such changes are made to stick.
Anyhoo, aside from the wingnuts showing up here, good to see the odd informed comment. TV3 tonight pointed out these guys have been “training” in the bush for at least 20 years, if not 150, and the idea that it became an urgent enough matter to round up all our unrelated dissidents over seems far more like what Kieth Locke warns about than what George Bush does.
Surprise surprise, ludicrous anti-gun laws and draconian surveillance powers used to target those who publicly disagree with large corporations. Who’d a thunk it. Expect union leaders to be the next lot rounded up.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:49 pm
Tussock
The Waikato is where I will be celebrating the next Anzac Day, are you promising to turn up?…….please do come, and make sure you bring plenty of your pals, I am sure those of us who come out early would love to hear you tell us that we are “mindlessly praising its participants”
I do however love your idea about union leaders, that is the best idea I have seen on here for some time.
October 16th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
I imagine that militants get a lot of encouragement from your sort Toad
“Let the grievances fester, as they have for 167 years already, and eventually there will be people who become so desperate that we’ll see some real terrorism/freedom fighters here.?”
As you would have heard they are/were out there Toad, with (at least) the ability to “scare the hell out of” (someone).
October 16th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
I think people under-estimate middle NZ. If fringe groups pose a serious threat, the PC mask will fall.
Extreme activists have had a free and easy ride *only* because middle NZ regards them as benign….
October 16th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
A friend who is an international counter-terrorism expert brought the news item to my attention… I laughed and laughed.
I informed them that any group involving Tame Iti was not worthy of international attention… I mean he’s a good-looking guy and all, but he’s a comic-opera revolutionary at best.
I also pointed out that a co-ordinated police sweep that includes interrogation of Greenpeace activists (the name of Greenpeace was omitted from the Sydney Morning Herald article they referred me to) was an indication that it’s either a deliberate provocation by police (arbitrarily associating people they don’t like with weapons offences) or that they don’t have an effin’ clue who they are actually looking for.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Because the”militants”, as you describe them, jh, actually have a valid legal point - the consitutional basis of this country in international law is Te Tiriti, but it has no recognition in the (largely unwritten) constitution of this country.
I don’t support violent tactics to resolve this, and nor do the Green Charter principles. But those attempting to assert tino rangatiratanga do have a legitimate claim in international law, and I support them in that.
My position is that we should seriously consider their claims, and attempt to negotiate a mutually agreed resolution, because, both in the interests of justice and, as has happened in so many other parts of the world, because locking up people who have legilitmate grievances, but feel only extreme measures remain available to them to try to achieve justice, only exacerbates the tension.
Let’s get past the “us” and “them” and try to negotiate a consensus position in this country on what the Treaty actually means constitutionally today.
As far as Tuhoi are concerned (which is where most of this has gone down), let’s not forget that they never actually signed Te Tiriti. There is therefore a strong constitutional argument that they continue to be a sovereign nation that is not a part of the State of New Zealand.
A negotiatied constitutional position on Te Tiriti therefore also means that we have to negotiate with those iwi/hapu who never actually signed it, some of whom still proclaim their governance over their rohe, let alone their sovereignty, remains intact. We may yet see arguments in Court, brought on that basis, that the NZ Police and Courts have no jurisdiction in Tuhoe in respect of the current pending charges.
And although the NZ Courts will inevitably reject such arguments, they do have validity in international law.
This is actually a huge issue for this country to come to grips with, and one that we’ve so far only gnawed at the edges of.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Exactly why does the Green Party pander so shamefully to an overtly racist movement, the Maori Party (the clue is in the name)?
The very existence of such a party is offensive. They are the New Zealand equivalent of the National Front or the Vlaams Blok. The Green Party should have had the guts to call them what they are. I’m guessing cynical political calculation got in the way of principle.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
(and my friend agreed with me)
The likes of PEL and Big Bro and Duncan Donut are jumping on the bandwagon the police operation has started : “Tame Iti crew = peace/environmental activists = Greens = terrorists”. This is exactly what one would expect.
jh is on the bandwagon too, this is a little bit surprising, I guess it’s the authoritarian streak overcoming his usual faculty for reason.
Gerrit is reserving his judgement, which is wise…
October 16th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Mouldy, the Green Party position on this issue was determined long before the Foreshore and Seabed Act and long before the Maori Party was ever a glint in Pita Sharples’ and Tariana Turia’s eyes.
The fact the Greens and the Maori Party agree on his doesn’t mean they “pander” to each other. In fact, Sue Bradford has pur out a media release very strongly attacking the Maori Party position on work-for-dole (whiich is a Maori Party position that, from previous posts of yours, I suspect you probably agree with).
October 16th, 2007 at 10:18 pm
Dwarp : “The very existence of such a party is offensive.”
Ahh the authoritarian streak of the self-described libertarians.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Alistair - no. I’m not jumping to any conclusions. We have so few facts.
I’m saying that if activists think middle NZ will sit still in the face of violent threats, they’re sadly mistaken.
Agreed with Mouldwarp.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
The Ureweras! Heartland of the cannibal Hauhaus… (not to be confused with the modernist Bauhaus…) A rich vein for the fears of the thin-skinned Pakeha masses. What a pity they have no sense of history… They might come to better understand their ingrained white-supremacist instincts.
Comic opera, I tell you.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Yeah, it’s the authoritarian streak eh Peter… Lock ‘em up.
Lock who up? Well, what have you got? The “Activists” that inhabit my nightmares.
Yeah where are the facts? Who has been charged with what?
October 16th, 2007 at 10:29 pm
The guy on the news looked rather white to me…
Iti, on the other hand, I find amusing. I’d find it hard for anyone to consider him a threat, but will be interested to see what the police have to say.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
>>Yeah, it’s the authoritarian streak eh Peter… Lock ‘em up.
Sure. The lesson of history is that peace is fought for.
There is a line….
October 16th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
This is not to say that the emergence of an armed separatist Tuhoe movement should be taken lightly. Comic-opera revolutionaries are a pain in the *rse in Corsica, for example, often a threat to property, occasionally a threat to life and limb. Government sometimes tries to crack down hard, sometimes buys off a generation of activists with government jobs (has that been tried with this crew? It would probably be a lot cheaper than big police operations.)
But calling such a thing “terrorism” is really a big call. Looks more like the police being desperate to try out their new legislation. Is there anything in this business that couldn’t be dealt with by ordinary law : firearms offences and whatnot?
October 16th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
PEL said: The lesson of history is that peace is fought for.
Yep, Peter, like the peace Dubya’s forces were commanded to fight for in Iraq, I guess!!!
October 16th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Very well put Toad,
The direction of my comment was at eredwen whose comment implied that left wing greens were wiser.
While I have some sympathies to your predicament, I await with interest the full police reasons for the arrests.
Problem I have is that while “peaceful” protest are considered OK and laudable, the Police upholding the law is considered not OK?
I have thus similar sympathies for the Police for their duty to uphold the law as applied to every citizen.
Whiel we make not like some laws (and the EFB if passed is a good example of a detestable law) we have to take responsibility to change them in a democratic and lawful manner.
October 16th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Indeed Gerrit. The detestable thing about the fact that the police raids seem to have targeted “peace” and “environment” groups, is that it encourages people, even reasonable ones like you, to leap to the conclusion that
“those [XXX] activists [insert your own adjective] are secretly plotting violent revolution”
while those of us who are among, or have had close contact with, those [xxx] activists know instinctively that it’s completely absurd [with the possible exception of Tuhoe].
This leads the “activist” camp to circle the wagons and assume the cops are up to no good. This was my own first instinct, and it ain’t necessarily so…
I remember when I was a young activist, there was a young guy who blew himself up at the entrance to the Wanganui computer centre. I knew several people who had met him, he apparently hung around in “activist” circles.
My point is that there can be nutters, romantic Che Guevara impersonators, or ill-intentioned people mingled with the sincerest of activists. Look at how easily the French DGSE infiltrated Greenpeace.
October 16th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
i wonder, how can we honour Te Tiriti O Waitangi without sacrificing a significant part of what stability NZ has? if we granted them land we would be bound to displace people of other ethnicitys, granting them seperate representation would be apartheid, both would cause alot of friction. prehaps a solution would be to offer limited subsidies to maori iwi when purchasing land (of a limited size, in non urban areas) on the condition that that land will be used for a marai and offering similar subsidies in urban areas where the land will be used for a cultural institution? but then again that will just be positive discrimination (which means negitive discrimination for all other ethnicities). I cultures are one of the many spices of life, all cultures should be given the opportunity to express themselves, maybe offering the subsidies to all organised cultural units, though of course limiting it somewhat?
or maybe we should just cut new zealand off above auckland and say “go for it”, or better yet, cut new zealand off at the bombay(sp?) hills, no jafa’s, id love it.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:58 am
Sapient, I think the current treaty settlement process seems to be the best system. Compensation is adjudged at the nett economic impact. The compensation for land taken by dubious means by the Crown takes into account the value that was added because of the Crown’s ability to borrow against the unimproved value of the land to raise capital to develop the roads and railways needed to open up the land for settlement and agricultural development. The Crown relied very heavily on settlers with personal contacts amongst British investors to raise it’s public works loans. If the land had remained in Maori ownersip those personal contacts would have been missing and native title was a major barrier to obtaining mortgages from banks. Thus, while the gross effect of Maori losing their lands is the loss of the current value of the land, the nett loss is much smaller because of the impact on capital formation. The latter greatly increases value of the land above what it would have been in Maori hands. I must emphasise that this is not the result of Pakeha being better managers or farmers than Maori but simply that Pakeha were better connected to obtain capital to develop the land. The catch 22 is that the Crown couldn’t have leant money to Maori to develop the land because the Crown didn’t have any spare money. That’s why it needed to get the land cheaply so that it would have something to borrow against.
Arguments can certainly be put forward that a slower initial rate of development could have allowed later development to be targetted at higher value primary sectors, but it would be equally valid to argue that it would just have resulted in a Johnny-come-lately being queezed out by it’s Australian and Canadian commonwealth rivals, and fighting for the same commonwealth status as India or Kenya.
Although it is little consolation to iwi, they have fared much better than the native Americans who signed a similar treaty with the Crown a century earlier. Their treaty was annulled when Britain lost the war of independence. The settlers of the new nation have been taking land by force ever since, from the Indians, from the Mexicans, from the Spanish, from the Panamanians. The lists goes on and on and seems to be getting longer every day.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:37 am
Ah well, since this saga seems to have brought every conspiracy theory out for an airing we might as well look at the possibility that our police took the opportunity to use these raids as fishing expedition on behalf of the German police “following the money trail” in the Seimens “questionable transactions” scandal. Last week Seimens was fined 200 million euros and taxed 180 million for claiming tax deductions on 400 million euros of “contract incentives” by it’s telecommunications division. A week earlier it disclosed that internal investigations had unearthed a further 1.6 billion euros of “questionable transactions” in other divisions of the company. While the payments are often legal in the countries in which they are made they often aren’t tax deductable in Germany. Payments to light rail campaigns are included amongst these “questionable transactions”, but third party political donations are perfectly legal in many countries, even for referenda on public works schemes. Perhaps Seimens have been making their donations in illegally anonymous ways. (Sideshow Bob was talkin up light rail and wouldn’t admit who his backers were till after the election - and its after the election and he still hasn’t fessed up, or maybe he has and I wasn’t listening).
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/view/302399/ 1/.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/04/business/siemens.php
October 17th, 2007 at 4:18 am
I know I’m oversensitive to police raids because of what’s happening here in America. I think the Green Party’s position - and duty - should be to get all the information possible and disseminate it to the people, to make sure that these aren’t politically motivated raids.
October 17th, 2007 at 7:17 am
What an ignorant, stupid lot some of you right wingers are. You should listen to Eredwen and a few others. Middle NZ - judging from TM message boards, has easily seen this issue for what it is - a beat up. There are some hilarious threads on there to prove it. Even just a cursory viewing of TV news showed the real agendas at work. Particularly as the Terrorism Bill is due to be passed this week. Other countries who passed their versions did exactly the same type of crackdowns prior. Now back to what should be the real story here - the Electoral Finance Bill currently going through Parliament. If this is passed this blog will become illegal as from 1 January 08.
October 17th, 2007 at 7:47 am
Hey Buzz - a beat up that the NZ Police took a year to set up! No wonder there’s no money for the Health System or anything else. It’s being spent to further Political Careers.
In Australia this week, the Federal Government has Banned the forming of any new Political Parties - period.
Same illness - different (thank god) country. Wonder when they’ll pass that here?-wonder if the Greens will show a bit of backbone over the EWB, and the proposed ‘drugged driver’ legislation which, as written, will be an open ticket to roust anyone.
All I see from the Greens in Parliament is Keith Locke - looking like a very tired defender of Thermopalye - all dem Persians hey….
October 17th, 2007 at 7:57 am
>>Yep, Peter, like the peace Dubya’s forces were commanded to fight for in Iraq, I guess!!!
Are you trying to suggest that war was about liberation?
October 17th, 2007 at 8:16 am
paul buchanan has spoken sense on this ‘beat-up’/justification for repressive legislation..
http://whoar.co.nz/2007/a-glaring-example-of-how-our-media-are-not-fai ling-ustodays-must-watch/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 17th, 2007 at 8:16 am
buzz, it is ridiculous to suggest there is a government/police conspiracy to force a bill through. The government don’t need such theatrics to force unwanted bills through. They have no problems forcing unwanted bills through now i.e. EFB, S59 etc. The Terrorism Bill isn’t even on the radar of most NZers.
I suspect TV News was showing a one sided report because they a) have little choice - there is no further information and b) they’re playing the drama for all it is worth.
People are waiting for further information. If it is shown that Police over-reacted, then sympathy will rest with those harassed. If it is shown that the police have damning evidence, then you can expect middle NZ to react strongly.
Lockett reportedly said “white men are going to die in this country” (Reuters)? Does he mean me? Is that a serious threat?
October 17th, 2007 at 9:00 am
Is this true? If it is, what do you think?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominionpost/4240026a6000.html
“Tame Iti was preparing to declare an IRA-style war on New Zealand in a bid to establish his long-standing dream of an independent Tuhoe nation, according to police documents. “
October 17th, 2007 at 9:14 am
We’ll have to wait and see what the evidence reveals I guess. I certainly wouldn’t support any “IRA style war” or other violent tactics.
However, given that Tuhoe never signed the Treaty, I think he has a strong constitutional argument that an independent Tuhoe nation still exists.
For those who dispute this, answer this question: By what means did the Crown obtain legitimate governance over Tuhoe?
October 17th, 2007 at 9:22 am
>>strong constitutional argument that an independent Tuhoe nation still exists.
Maybe he does - I don’t know enough about Tuhoe to comment.
However, the point here is the use of ultraviolence against fellow New Zealanders in 2007.
I say unacceptable.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:05 am
If that is what the evidence actually verifies Peter. Remember, at law there is a presumption of innocence unless a Court finds otherwise - that applies as much to Tame Iti as it does to Clint Rickards. To presume otherwise and publicly state it can jeopardise the right to a fair trial. At the moment, all we have are allegations.
Back in 1981 Muldoon produced a list of 20 “subversives and terrorists” the Police and the SIS had cobbled together - alleging all sorts of things such as a plan to gas spectators at rugby games. It all turned out to be load of rubbish (although one on the list went on to become a corrupt ACT Party MP - Donna Awatere-Huata).
October 17th, 2007 at 10:05 am
I couldn’t find your link to Paul Buchanan Phill.
I enjoyed this link
http://www.publicaddress.net/default,4544.sm#post4544
October 17th, 2007 at 10:10 am
>>Remember, at law there is a presumption of innocence unless a Court finds otherwise
Of course. I’m merely asking questions about the stated allegations, as published in the Dominion.
I think most are hoping it’s just a bunch of “enthusiasts” playing toy soldiers and talking tough.
The alternative is a little unsettling, don’t you think…
October 17th, 2007 at 10:29 am
buzz Says:
October 17th, 2007 at 7:17 am
What an ignorant, stupid lot some of you right wingers are. You should listen to Eredwen and a few others.
…………………………………………………
Yes quite a difference. One side goes to the depth of the grievance and accepts every idea as valid being historically, culturally, spiritually based. The result is that groups develop strongly negative positions on a collision track with the rest of the population. This is the reverse of modern practice in psychotherapy where negative ideas are disputed.
Refugees from Cambodia are better off as arrive knowing nothing is theirs..
“We’re different! Our skin is different” Ken Mair opening shirt TV program from past.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:37 am
it’s there jh..it’s there..!
(get a young person to show you..)
and..earlier on.. i also de-bunked russel browns anti-green/anti-vegan attack of the vapours..
http://whoar.co.nz/2007/russel-brown-has-an-attack-of-the-vaporsand-ge ts-an-anti-greenanti-vegan-swipe-in-on-the-way-through/
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 17th, 2007 at 10:39 am
I couldn’t find Paul Buchanan on the TVNZ site.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:44 am
It occurs to be that quite a few Al Quaeda attacks are amateurish but could have been deadly.
Tariana Turiana… (Mrs Milosovitch) “Moari don’t want to be considered terrorists in their own country.”
October 17th, 2007 at 10:50 am
‘ I know you hippies hate the police”
I live at the house that was raided in Wellington and “hippie” I am not - I am an old punk.
“the save happy valley people tied themselfs to a train track when they knew that a train filled with coal was coming (Didnt they also scale a building to put a banner up, or was that greenpeace?). I would call that dangerous and stupid.”
You can call it what you like, but delaying a train or dropping a banner isn’t ‘terrorism” is it?
October 17th, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Oh dear!
Nick C said: (16 Oct at 4:07 pm) “I’m not quite sure what that post has to do with the debate eredwen … all youve (sic) done is conjure 2 irrelivent (sic) quotes, talk about your afternoon … ”
and
Gerrit said: (16 Oct at 4:38 pm) “… Eredwen wants us to ““….LISTEN TO OTHERS WHO ARE WISER!â€? … Bit partronising to think those who are right wing and green are not as wise as you - left wing and green.”
These remarks were later repeated to Toad, I notice.
………………………………………………………….
I reply:
Well, I didn’t expect people on frogblog to misinterpret what I wrote, as
“put downs” are not our style!
However, it now seems that a disclaimer is necessary:
What I said was:
“NOW IS A TIME TO LISTEN TO OTHERS WHO ARE WISER!�
This referred to: “… a couple of quotes:”
Which are:
“Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.�
(attributed to George Santayana)
“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.�
(Margaret Mead)
… and to a couple of books:
Michal King’s “The Penguin History of New Zealand� and
Ranganui Walker’s “Ka Whawhai Tonu Matou (Struggle Without End)�
are just two of the books that are worth looking at.”
(other worthwhile books include those written by James Bellich)
Nick C and Gerrit,
Might I remind you, in future, to remember that you are guests here and follow the maxim “When on frogblog do as the Greens do!”
(An apology would be a good place to start!)
eredwen
Thanks for the support Buzz … it gave me the courage to write this.
October 17th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Nick, you have finally got it have you? Well done. Yes, I think the police made the whole thing up, at least as far as the Wellington activists are concerned, and possibly concerning the alleged illegal training camps in the Urerewas as well. I have had a lot of experience with the police arresting activists on trumped up charges that are later thrown out of court, often accompanied by a stern warning by the judge to the police not to waste the court’s time. In one incident a protester was pepper sprayed by some Neanderthal thug in Rotorua (Bay of Plenty police again), and the judge not only dismissed the charges but in his summing up gave a strong recommendation to the accused to sue the police.
So yes, if it comes down to accepting the word of protestors, many of whom I know, and the police, who have a culture of rape and violence and are so hard put to find recruits they are taking people who can’t even read, then I will take the word of the protestors.
And as for ANZAC day, for the record I did not think it a good idea to choose that day or that occasion to protest. But I support their right to do so, even if it is offensive. There is no law that says everyone should be allowed to go through life without being offended by anyone. But if you want to honour the people who died fighting fascism then perhaps one way would be to avoid behaving like the people they were fighting.
And hippies? Are you living in a 70s time warp or something? Get into the 21st century why don’t you?
October 17th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
PEL asks: “Is this true?”
well no of course it isn’t - that is a headline and a byline in a newspaper, I wouldn’t believe that quote at all since the MSM tends to make up headlines and bylines that bear no resemblance to the rest of the story in order to generate controversy and sell papers.
I would however believe the body of the story where the only evidence of this IRA claim seems to be a txt message reading “wage war on NZ” - but this wording doesn’t have to refer to violence of course.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
jh said I couldn’t find your link to Paul Buchanan Phill.
Try here jh, and the video link out of that page.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Whoops - I meant here:
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/411749/1406496
October 17th, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Stuey - I guess ’cause you say so….
I’ll wait for more evidence before I make up my mind.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Eredwen,
I have nothing to apologise for.
What you are saying that those writers of the books you refer to are wiser than anyone else.
To make that statement you need to quantify how wise they are. Something you did not do.
Nor do you know how wise I am.
Are you suggesting that only green party members are entitles to have differing view points on this blog?
I had better cancel that Green party membership cheque that is in the mail. Unless, as soon as it is cashed, my wisdom increases and I can join in the discussion.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
How does tino rangitiratanga apply in the Tama Iti case:
1. The Green Party affirms that Te Tiriti o Waitangi remains a living and fundamental constitutional document.
2. The Green Party, through its Charter and its constitution, acknowledges the indigenous language version of Te Tiriti as the legitimate text of an agreement that described the rights and responsibilities of hapu and the Crown, and which:
a)gave the Crown the right to kawanatanga,
b)confirmed the chiefs’ tino rangatiratanga,
c)gave Mäori the individual rights of British people, and
d)confirmed their religious, spiritual and customary rights.
3. The Green Party acknowledges that the Crown and its representatives have breached, and continue to breach, te Tiriti. We support the resolution of, and restitution for, all outstanding historical and contemporary breaches.
4. The Green Party believes there is a need for an ongoing dialogue grounded in Te Tiriti, both to give effect to the relationship that it enshrines, and to build a high level of awareness among all citizens of the unique role of Te Tiriti in our nation.
The whole policy can be read here.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
eredwen..
how about asking green party members to actually read/consider/understand this election reform bill..?
and..devoid of party spin/calling up of exclusive brethren demons..
consider what these laws would have meant for the anti-ge movement..as just one example..
then..when they see how repressive/anti-democratic it is..
hopfully they will start lobbying the green mps..
with some degree of urgency..
the labour party/green party plan is to force the legislation through before chriistmas..
and then come january 1st..
the new laws will kick in..
and shortly after..i’m predicting..
the civil disobedience will also commence..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 17th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Toad made the comment that the debate over the police raids is related to the authoritarian-libertarian spectrum, ie the extent to which the state can interfere with our lives. I think it is more complex that that, it is more to do with the circumstances in which the state can interfere.
I for example am quite authoritarian when it comes to passing regulations to protect children, animals and the environment. I supported Bradfords “anti-smacking bill”, I cheered when a factory farmer had the book thrown at him for abusing animals, and I would support a total ban on set netting around the Maui dolphin habitat, and a ban on open cast mining. I would even go further; I would support sending in the Navy after the Japanese whalers, boarding them and confiscating their boat (one thing BB and I would agree on I think).
On other issues however I am quite libertarian. I certainly support the right to protest, and the rights of free speech and freedom of assembly and religion. I support the rights of the ANZAC day protestors to be there even though I found it offensive. It comes down to what you think the role of the state is. IMHO the state is there to protect those who need protecting. But we need to continually guard against the tendency for it to become a means of protecting the status quo, and the sensibilities of the rich and powerful who support it.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
PEL: “I’ll wait for more evidence before I make up my mind.”
really? you seem to have made up your mind already with your “unacceptable” comment. That is surely you expressing your presumption of guilt is it not?
but anyway, I’m glad we all agree that we should wait until there is actual evidence presented in court, because that is what I was arguing for as well … by saying that we shouldn’t believe the media editorial line.
hooray for consensus lets all stop talking past one another and the world will be a better place.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Wait Longer…’evidence presented in Court’ does not mean Automatic Guilt.
October 17th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
kiore1, I acknowledge that I may have expressed it somewhat simplisticly above. I actually agree entirely with what you say here. The State should intervene to protect the interests of the vulnerable, whether they be human beings or other species, against those who would exploit them in their personal interests.
But it should not intevene to impinge upon the privacy or freedom of people who take a “dissident” point of view and/or organise lawful and legitimate protests against actions of the State they disagree with.
My experience as a long-time activist on environmental and social justice issues is that it often does - and I have several “badges of honour” (ie victories against the Police in the Courts) to back up this assertion.
October 17th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
>>you seem to have made up your mind already
I haven’t, but there is a possibility you know my mind better than I do.
We’re agreed.
October 17th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
“But it should not intevene to impinge upon the privacy or freedom of people who take a “dissidentâ€? point of view and/or organise lawful and legitimate protests against actions of the State they disagree with.”
Seems that GPANZ is 80% dissident. Of course if people do meet violent types they have a duty to spill the beans (if they aren’t blinded by anti-authoritarian paranoia).
October 17th, 2007 at 7:20 pm
Gerret,
I’m at a loss about what I should say in reply to your post (17 October 3:18pm).
Perhaps it is best that I say nothing.
eredwen
October 17th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
You could see if you could get his status changed from Tauiwi to Order of The Plonker.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
jh said: Seems that GPANZ is 80% dissident.
Of course we are, jh - more likely 100%. So are the Nats, Maori Party, & ACT, although on different issues. If we were not, we would have all joined the Labour Party and had a nice little one-party state.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
If only I’d thought of an issue like this before the last election to back up my Orewa speech. I might have been Prime Minister now. Oh well… (sigh)
October 17th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
It will be interesting to see what “Evidence” the police come up with.
In the meantime this charade will be keeping the Americans happy.
Are the Greens really going to allow the Electoral Finance Bill to go through as it stands. If so, as I said before this blog and most others will be illegal come 1 Jan.
October 18th, 2007 at 2:18 am
Toad,
It seems that the boy racer legislation was a practice run for the anti-terrorist legislation.
1. find a group of people who, individually, are no trouble but who, in a group, disturb the peace and make a nuisance of themselves. Activities which of course are adequately covered by existing legislation.
2. take a few isolated instances where these people have been aggressive or dangerous and insist that this what they are all like, all the time.
3. having thus created fear amongst mainstream voters you can now safely propose legislation that
a) worked really well in another country
b) appears to say one thing and target one group but when a judge uses the literal interpretaion rule will actually mean something quite different and apply to almost anybody
c) allows imprisonment (for up to 28 days) solely at the discretion of a police officer, in the case of the boy racer law it is the persons pride and joy that is imprisoned, before the alleged offence has even been proved in a court of law
d) specifically excludes the right to sue for wrongful imprisonment
Originally the media coverage of the boy racer problem was all about the public nuisance aspect but once Labour decided to run with it the media coverage quickly became focused on road safety even though senior police officers (in Christchurch) insist that boy racing is primarily a public nuisance problem. Media coverage of boy racer blitzes is encouraged and high profile, probably because it provides great visuals.
Notice how Labour have placed the EB at the centre of the EFB debate. Same tactic of creating a boogeyman where there is really only a few naughty boys. Ditto, placing Tame Iti at the centre of the current test of the anti-terrorism laws.
Goebbels would be proud!
October 18th, 2007 at 7:31 am
Then there is the case of the God Squad at Waipara
From Public Adress from Dom Post”|:
[O]ne former member of the Full Gospel Mission, John Turton, who later became a Presbyterian minister at Reporoa, said the sect members marched as a military group “basically preparing for what I consider was anarchy”.
Police raids on the camp and members’ homes throughout New Zealand in 1977 blunted its military capacity. Firearms and ammunition were confiscated and charges were laid against several sect members, including some against Dr Metcalf that were later dismissed.
Mr Turton later said the police action prevented a siege in the style of the shootout in Waco, Texas, where a 51-day stand-off between a religious cult led by David Koresh led to the death of Koresh and 85 of his Branch Davidian followers.
Police raided Camp David again in 1987, but – without the powers conferred by the Terrorism Suppression Act, which only came into force in 2002 – a glitch with the search warrant gave cult members 48 hours to bury their arms along the highway between Waipara and Murchison and in forests, said Mr Turton.
So perhaps the God Squad wasn’t entirely benign.
http://www.publicaddress.net/hardnews
October 18th, 2007 at 9:31 am
Kevyn said: It seems that the boy racer legislation was a practice run for the anti-terrorist legislation.
Proud to say the Green opposed both of these when they were going through Parliament.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:37 am
so toad..simple/obvious question..
why is the green party supporting that poxy election reform bill..?
instead of ‘proudly opposing it’..?
as they should..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 18th, 2007 at 9:42 am
can the greens not see past the exclusive brethren..?
and see what this repressive legislation means..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 18th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
jh: Apart from the Bill of Rights Act issue, the Greens also predicted that the Boy Racer Bill would not achieve its objective. And as events, including a very sad one in Christchurch, have shown, it hasn’t.
I think most Greens totally despise the boy racer mentality, but that doesn’t justify impinging on fundamental human rights. Same argument goes for the Terrorism Suppression Act too.
Similarly, something in my guts tells me to outlaw the Exclusive Brethren. But something in my head tells me they have the right to practice their religious beliefs, however offensive they may be to me, and I need to respect that.
October 18th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Well Said Toad! And when Religious Belief mixes with Political Ambition? I think we start down a road toward absolute folly…
Boy Racers are a real danger where I live, but when enacting the Confiscation of Private Property, I think our Legislators need to be very very carefull.
The ‘thin edge of the wedge’ view is fraught with the dangers of abuse. Extrapolating Confiscation Legislation, the next step?
The Greens were and are completely right to oppose this Legislation as it is written.
The intent may be good, but the body of Legislation is not.
October 18th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
Yes lets wait until a few people have been shot before we act on Terrorism Suppression , that way we know we are not making any mistake .Its not against the law to verbally threaten is it , specially when combined with organised exercises with guns .
And these boy racers cause many accidents and even kill people sometime may women and young children who have just started living their wonderful life .But in thinking of the boy racers we must first beware , The ˜thin edge of the wedge” view is fraught with the dangers of abuse . Maybe after a few more kids have died we will have decided what exactly to do , and if a few more kids have to die because of crazy teenages so what ? thems the breaks thats life .We can afford the abuse of the kids that die , but we must beware of the abuse by the thin edge of the wedge …We cannot afford to make mistakes even if we are trying to save lives .
Yes we must also observe the exclusive brethrens rights to practice their religion however they wish .However offensive they might be and if they wish to be deceitful to thats fine because its religious to do so .Thats why they recieve tax exemptions see the say they are a church and amongst other things are a charity who help people and everyone is welcome to come along etc etc which is great seeing we help them by giving them tax exemptions .But its a thin edge of the wedge if we start asking them to prove anything , no we should just take them at their word who cares if we might have to pay more tax and might actually be lining their pockets for nothing .Lets just take them on their word even if they have seemed to be rather deviate ,we must not be judgemental .And if they have been splitting familys and disregarding court orders for access rights to children , so what ? thats their religious right ! and we must respect religious beliefs no matter what .
Some people who read the koran believe in jihad we should respect these beliefs too , and if my clu clux clan friends decide they want to hate dark people they should be allowed to .They might transulate it that way from the bible and we shouldnt ask any questions we should just respect their beliefs , otherwise its the thin edge of the wedge and its fraught with the dangers of abuse .
Besides theres no thin edge of the wedge the other way around if we just let people do what ever they wish is there ?, this wont abuse anyone will it ? .
So what do we have to lose ? .
Im starting my own church it should be tax exempt its called the church of piggy muldoonism,we give charity to boy racers who have had their cars confiscated .Hopefully we will have a big membership of boyracers as we read the bible and our transulation is that the brothers were merry as they moved around .So we hope that in future we will not be judged for any drunk in charge of motor vehical charges , as its part of our belief .We also will stone anyone to death who owes us money , we reserve the right to do this according to the old testiment we follow .
October 19th, 2007 at 1:24 am
Toad, the objective of the boy racer legislation was to stop large groups of youths with noisy cars from congregating in Clayton Cosgrove’s electorate.
If you think safety was a geuine problem then take off your leafy-tinted specs and read what Inspector Erasmus has to say about that.
http://stuff.co.nz/thepress/4212215a6530.html
October 19th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Dear Piggy - I thought you were gone - is the hysteria Porphyra?
Anyway I just wanted to say - you were a sh**t Prime Minister…that’s right - the worst. Exported more good Kiwi’s than any combination of things before or since - damaged the Country almost beyond repair - we were rich when you started but you fixed that like only a true Gin Freak can…
No one - repeat for your weak eyes - no one, is supporting “Boy Racers” here.
Verbal threats are assault by definition - trouble is Police here won’t (in my experience) enforce the Law - even when invited to do so.
Incidentally the Sarge likes your car….he’s gonna book you as a Boy Racer and grab it…better go home the other way.
October 19th, 2007 at 9:30 am
PS Pigster: Gather up your National Mates and p*ss off back to your own little paddock will you - yeah all five of ‘em, they’re not helping you or anyone else.
October 19th, 2007 at 10:36 am
Mark
You are wrong, Klark and this corrupt govt have driven more good Kiwi’s out of this country than any other administration, 700 of our best are leaving every week and we replace them with refuges (Labour voters)
October 19th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Every Kiwi is a ‘good’ Kiwi to me bro - just some need help to realize their potential. I just wonder why you guys are’nt on your own Party Website - supporting and encouraging them. Giving of your able talents there.
Maybe you are…I’ll have a look. It’s not as though you’re gonna gain converts here….
I think you’ll find that under Muldoon the figure was over 800 a week
Of course a few World Wars hold the record for Kiwi human exports.
October 19th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
a national party supporter is claiming labour to be corrupt? i must realy of gotten the definition of corruption wrong, i would of sworn that trying to take government so as to maximise ones profits without caring about the damage that would do and bending to the will of big companies in exchange for large ‘donnations’ was a prime example of corruption.
October 20th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
….’First they come for the cannabis users’ says Phil U perhaps tounge in cheek, but actually its quite right. “and no one said anything”.
pot smoking maori seen defiantly outside court on tv3 news… there is your real vehicle for oppression suppression and depression and repression. ramping up police powers, eroding civil liberties, electronic survellience, normalising hypocrisy and funding of useless programmes/grifter groups, busting & locking up maori 4x disproportionately, more prisons, more divisiveness amongs kiwis, and more criminality than