by frog
It seems the Government have decided having a man die in their custody whilst being detained indefinitely wouldn’t be such a good look.
The news that Panah was granted bail today – day 53 of his hunger strike – has been received with relief and joy from his supporters.
Not that Mr Panah is likely to receive much mercy. Only the odd couple of Keith and Gordon Copeland have spoken out on his behalf, while the Government and several politicians from across the spectrum have accused him of fraud, lies and rorting the system.
It seems indisputable that Christian converts are right to fear for their safety in Iran. (for example, see here, here and here). Perhaps the Government are just nervous about the tanty some of their coalition partners might throw if they are forced to reassess their intransigence?
Published in Justice & Democracy | Society & Culture by frog on Mon, September 3rd, 2007
Tags: environment
on the trolls and those who are unable to keep on topic
Hunger strike for tax cuts everyone
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Ha ha…well said Porc
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Frog
Is it the Greens intention that we are to become the drop off point for every refugee or asylum seeker in the world?
This chap is not wanted, not welcome and not our problem, perhaps when he is deported he could take Mr Zaoui with him.
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There are plenty of immigrants desperately wanting to come here – how many should we allow in? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? How many would be too many for Mr Locke?
I’m sure they all have a harrowing story to tell…
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Muslim pretty, christian bad, except when he embarrases government to the right of us.
Perhaps the Greens support him because he’s used up less of the panets resurces lately. I’ve told you about your knitting before greens – stick to it and you may not look so foolish.
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What underlying blog site is this? its the best, most responsive blog I’ve seen.
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WordPress
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Tonight the Minister of immigration implied that they had something on him, but couldn’t disclose due to privacy laws. That could be like pretending to have a gun in your pocket when it is only a banana. Having said that I don’t believe that the Green Charter is well thought out as social justice is a goal, but what constitutes social justice can be subjective and open to debate.
The charter is frequently quoted to justify a partisan viewpoint> mid argument.
[What is my opinion on the minimum wage.
a) people shouldn't be ripped off
b) we shouldn't have knee jerk reactions to issues.
c) actions can have unintended consequences
d) flexibility can mean a step up.
e) ??????]
jh
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BB and PEL – you raise very good valid points, no it is not the Greens intention that we are to become the drop off point for every refugee or asylum seeker in the world, and how many refugees can NZ take is a difficult question (I believe there is an immigration policy under development internally).
Currently we support:
* Increase our refugee quota from 750 per year to 1000 per year
* Ensure that all refugees and asylum seekers are treated humanely, with detention only used in exceptional cases where a genuine security risk can be identified.
* Abide by the provisions of the 1951 Refugee Convention and related international agreements.
and lots of other really valuable policy points.
http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/policy8825.html#migrants
porc, you may have told us to stick to knitting but as I told you it is right and proper that the Greens have a position on all aspects of government, if we genuinely stuck to purely environmental issues you would be attacking us for being a single issue party who are therefore not to be trusted because they are not a serious party. We are a serious party and we have the widest most detailed policy of any party! Prove me wrong on that one!
http://www.greens.org.nz/docs/policy/
http://www.greens.org.nz/election2005/policies.asp
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porc, what are you talking about “Muslim pretty, Christian bad”? Can you name a single time when the Greens expressed any negativity towards Christians or Christianity? Yes we don’t like the opinions, politics and behaviour of several Christian groups or political parties, but at the same time we thoroughly support and appreciate the positions and work of many others (e.g. there are two links to church websites in frogs post above).
porc and jh, question for you. If you think the Greens should avoid social justice issues, do you also think churches should avoid social justice issues? If not why not?
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It isn’t about avoiding social justice issues at all. As I have said before the single issue…adapting to resource depletion is a giant , with deep ramifications. The Greens stand out as the only Not business as usual party. One thing must come before another, and that is to figure how we deal with the physical, biological realities in which the world economy functions.
The Green Party is a chimera, having inherited a bunch of old socialists, they are making a charge and defining the flavour of the party before the hard work is done.
Social justice issues could be presented differently where the decision making processes and context are emphasised.
ps I can’t get on Kiwi Blogg (despite saved password)
jh
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Has anyone noticed a favourite tactic on Kiwiblog is to attack people who cut and paste as amateurs while “next time I design an oil field extraviction capacitating algorithmic system for a client… I’ll….” I reckon the PR industry is busy over there… Global warming and resource scarcity is bad for business
jh
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>>Increase our refugee quota from 750 per year to 1000 per year
What happens to hunger-striking refugee # 1001?
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Rambling thoughts follow: the problem with encouraging refugees is that you are also supporting a raft of illegal activities: immigration fraud, forgery, criminal gangs, people smugglers. Encouraging people to give their life savings to these nefarious types, in an effort to bypass normal immigration channels, is immoral.
Once they get here, some find that life is fairly difficult, turn to crime, especially those who are conditioned to view women as uncovered meat. The cost to health and social services is also not small.
IMHO it is not a solution to the world’s ills to be the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff and increase the quota above the UN requirements- we should be more pro-active with economic development, starting in our own back yard- the Pacific islands.
The Greens seem to have a solely global outlook on this issue, it would be nice if they also could spare a thought for those voters who have to live in the same communities as war-scarred survivors…
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THis guy looked awfully chubby after 53 days on hunger strike. I frankly question whether he has been truly rejecting food. IRA hunger strikers were emaciated, going blind and dying after 55 days in the 80s. That affects his credibility in my view
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Some of you know that I am not an optimist.
My current view is that the government:
– released him only when they expected that he was going to die
– sandbagged the Anglicans by denying them the hospital system
and are hoping that he will still die in circumstances where the blame will be shared with his supporters.
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uk_kiwi, you raise valid points …
1) That refugees once they get to NZ may find it difficult to support themselves. This is why there are a number of policy points in the Greens migrant policy that I linked to:
* Offer English as a second language courses that are affordable to all adult refugees who need them.
* Ensure greater availability of bridging courses for immigrants who have professional skills which Aotearoa/New Zealand needs.
* Increase the resources government makes available for successful resettlement.
2) That we shouldn’t be the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Yes, absolutely, which is why the Greens favour fair trade, increased foreign aid, and no support for human rights abusing governments. The policy says:
* Campaign for more far-reaching debt relief for poorer countries.
* Finalise a timetable to reach the United Nations’ overseas aid target of 0.7% of Gross National Income by 2015.
* Maximise the effectiveness of aid by delivering a higher proportion of it through Non Governmental Organizations, with a strong human rights dimension.
* Ensure that in any dealings with countries in which human rights violations occur, including economic and trade negotiations, the interests of disadvantaged and disempowered communities are paramount.
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PEL: “What happens to hunger-striking refugee # 1001?”
Well that is for the government agency to decide. Our policy is just that people should be treated fairly and humanely so they shouldn’t be imprisoned while their cases are heard.
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They certainly should be detained if they enter illegally. Alternatively, they can be turned back. It seems strange to jump the legal queue, then expect a welcoming committee.
I fear being lenient on offenders with well-crafted sob-stories will merely serve to open a floodgate of queue jumpers, which costs us all, and is unfair to legitimate migrants.
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It seems that xenophobia is alive and well in NZ, as usual.
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Heh heh.
It’s not xenophobia, though. I want more foreigners to come here. My mother wasn’t born here – my father only just.
Should we throw open the floodgates? Why have an immigration policy at all? At what point would you say “enough”? Would that point indicate xenophobia?
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PEL: It’s not xenophobic to be suggest that a hunger-striking man who is in danger of being killed if we deport him to his homeland being temporarily allowed to overstay sets a bad precedent? I’m not entirely sure if I can agree with that.
I find it incredulous that this man’s appeals have been rejected, let alone his original case. How can anyone say converts from Islam don’t count as genuine refugees, given that many Islamic people seem to feel that homicide is the only appropriate response to conversion? Really, the issue shouldn’t be about his having to manipulate the immigration system. The issue should be that he hasn’t been granted a visa yet.
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Get real the world population is collosal. A population increases exponentially until it runs out of resources (oil)or something kills it off. The sort of people who push for lots of immigration are those who directly benefit (ie the property industry ). The rest of the population are left to debate rate rises, new hydro etc, etc. No one can explain the long term plan (ie NZ’s comparative advantage)
A recent sudy by a massey? University economist pointed out that the benefits of immigration are overstated.
jh
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I wonder how much lobbying the property industry does… Funds to the main political parties etc…A LOT I suspect.
Beer Wine and Spirits lobbyist had her own parliamentary pass until stopped by Matt Robson
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Crooks
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Ari – he is not in danger of being killed – any more so than any other Christian in Iran, of which there are thousands. Are they all being systematically killed off? No. And why did he return to Ian on holiday? Twice?
Or perhaps we should just open the floodgates. How many would be too many? One million? Two million? 40 million?
At what point do you become “xenophobic”?
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“And why did he return to Iran on holiday? Twice?”
Where did u here that?
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Never forget, this man is good for us according to the leader of this emerging Muslim nation.
Welcome to the soon to be renamed Islamic republic of Clarkistan
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PEL, I wasn’t suggesting that you were xenophobic for suggesting that there should be a limit to immigration. Limits are entirely sensible because of resource constraints and as I said earlier, it is a difficult question for which the Green Party has no answer at present beyond the increase from 750 to 1000 policy.
Rather I used that word because of (1) your perceived assertion that there are no genuine refugees, that they are all cheats with well-crafted sob stories and that (2) there is a “flood” of migrants. In particular “flood” is a classic example of the language of xenophobes who are scared of outsiders.
Also, you have to provide a ref for your went back to Iran on holiday twice assertion or you will completely lose all credibility around here.
BB, can you express your point in English please? WTF are you on about?
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Stuey
I do not mind immigrants, what I object to is refugees who contribute nothing to our society, why on earth would you want to take more of them?
I would hope that the incoming National govt put a stop to all refugees immediately they take office.
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BB, please don’t avoid the subject. What do you mean by:
I truely do not understand what kind of point you are trying to make.
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sorry to dissapoint you BB, but National’s policy is to keep the current 750 quota. They do however promise to get rid of the Refugee Family Quota which allows those 750 to bring family members in too.
http://www.national.org.nz/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4912#6
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You could be forgiven for thinking that this group and Keith Lockes faction are the same>
Global Peace And Justice Auckland Newsletter
“”Syd was also well known to other Green MPs through his trade union work – and particularly through his groundbreaking efforts in organising Maori workers through their own kaupapa Maori union,” Greens’ Industrial Relations Spokesperson Sue Bradford says.” Emoticon= :MrRed:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0709/S00004.htm
jh
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>>Where did u here that?
On the news last night.
>>your perceived assertion that there are no genuine refugees
There are, but not all refugees are genuine.
>>“flood? is a classic example of the language of xenophobes
Now you’re just being silly. As I’ve said, I welcome immigrants (I preety much am one myself) and think we should be accepting a a lot more.
Skilled immigrants, through appropriate channels.
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Do we have an update on his (alleged): two trips to Iran on holiday???? Maybe that was before he converted to Christianity? Close Up asked if he would waiver his right to privacy so they could release the info the minister of immigration was holding, but he was (still) unwell.
As I said being a “social justice party” is hunky-dory, but issues aren’t as clear cut as they are in Gotham City. A political pressure group can be forgiven for having a partisan position, but the Greens are (presumably) aiming at a broad base. It looks as though Global Peace And Justice and this party> GPANZ are one and the same.
jh
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There are over 6000 Muslim converts to Christianity living in Iran today. Why aren’t they all dead?
“Panah was born into a Muslim family in the Iranian capital, Tehran, and lived there until he was 27. Through the ’90s he lived in Turkey, returning to Iran for a short time after his father died. Panah moved to South Korea in 2000 where he converted to Christianity. He returned home to visit his sick mother a year later before seeking permission to stay in New Zealand in 2002.”
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PeterExitsLeft Says:
As I’ve said, I welcome immigrants (I preety much am one myself) and think we should be accepting a a lot more.
Skilled immigrants, through appropriate channels.
—————-
Many of my cousins (family of ex pat Uncle are moving out here). The UK is too crowded. What bothers me is when the process is too fast and the cost to the local population (who don’t have a lobby group) aren’t taken into account.
Notice Don Ha, arrived here from Vietnam as an 11 year old and is now worth about 20 million..Easy to see the benefit to him, and the flow down through tradesmen etc, but what is the cost to those not directly affected?
In NZ if there are zoning changes in your neighborhood, and a developer builds to the north he can take your sunlight without compensation and sell it to his purchasers…. but small fry aren’t influencial.
jh
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“The Refugee Status Appeals Authority was absolutely clear on what it thought of Iranian hunger-striker Ali Panah when it twice dismissed his appeals to stay in New Zealand.
The independent tribunal clearly felt it was being fed a pack of lies by the would-be refugee.
Mr Cunliffe also threw down a challenge to the Anglican Church, John Minto’s Global Peace & Justice Auckland, the Greens
and other sympathisers of Mr Panah to tell the full story about him.
Mr Cunliffe will not be holding his breath for that to happen. But his challenge is a pretty big hint to the public that the facts are not quite what others seem to infer. ”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10461695
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“In what is seen as a sign of growing religious tolerance in Iran, church services have been held in Tehran to mark the installation of a new Anglican bishop.” http://tinyurl.com/29zxbu
You’d think the utterly useless media in New Zealand could actually consider doing their jobs. Maybe even use that interweb thingy occasionally…..
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They could even try looking up Wikipedia: http://tinyurl.com/ct6bd
Just if they can spare the time…
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See, I’m wondering if the peace-nik reaction is born out of latent xenophobia? “Those mad Iranian b*st’ds! They’ll kill anyone! Mad, I tell you! All mad!!”
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“See, I’m wondering if the peace-nik reaction is born out of latent xenophobia? “Those mad Iranian b*st’ds! They’ll kill anyone! Mad, I tell you! All mad!!?
Nope PEL, its, because technicially conversion from Islam (apostasy) is illegal in many Muslim countries under Sharia law, including Iran. If you actually googled apostasy, Iran, and executions. You would find many examples of people being tried and sentenced for the “crime” in Iran and only to have the accused acquitted due to international condemnation.
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The how come there are thousands who aren’t killed? Why is there an Anglican bishop? What do you think of Jama’at-e Rabbani?
It is simply *not true* that all converts to Christianity get killed. It is only true to say a few have been killed. It is also true to say many more die on the roads in Iran each year than ever get killed for converting to Christianity.
None of this seems to matter if you don’t eat for a bit and gain the sympathy of a few useful idiots. Perhaps that should be the criteria for selection in future – how much national news coverage you can generate.
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PEL
“The how come there are thousands who aren’t killed?”
Like the Muslims and Jews during the Spanish Inquisition, most new Christian converts hide their knew beliefs. Its not illegal to be a Christian in Iran, its illegal to be an apostate and the sentence for THAT crime is death, which is why I would have supported Ali Panah’s request to apply for status as a refugee, although the publicity surrounding his appeal case will grant him some protection from persecution from the State if he was deported, but I couldn’t say the same for him being safe from his neighbours who are likely to lynch him with tacit approval from the clerics, the true power in Iran.
Not to mention the fact that we just don’t know how many people are actually being killed in Iran by the State anymore than we know how many are killed in Egypt, Uzbekistan, the Congo, Sudan, China etc etc. We only hear of the rare few cases that get international media coverage.
“It is also true to say many more die on the roads in Iran each year than ever get killed for converting to Christianity.”
Same is true for terror attacks and child abuse, but you’re quite happy to condemn the perpetrators for those crimes and support “justice” for the victims in those cases, so why are you so dismissive of people getting killed merely due to their religious beliefs?
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The problem here isn’t letting one individual in. The problem is sending the wrong signals to future applicants.
Ultimately, it is unfair on those who use the correct channels. There’s no point having correct channels if we don’t enforce them.
The evidence does not back the proposition that all aposates are put to death. Jama’at-e Rabbani would made up almost entirely of people who are aposates. And why did Panah return to Iran for a holiday after he converted if he feared for his life?
He’d be more likely to be killed by Iranian’s laissez faire attitude to the give-way rule….
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oh come on, now you really are being hypocritical.
If it is not OK for commenters on this blog to characterise Americans as stupid, then it is not OK for you to characterise Iranians as bad drivers. You used a bell curve argument in that thread and the same is true here. There are crap drivers all around the world and plenty of them live here in NZ.
Unless you have some proof on rates of death from traffic accidents in countries around the world?
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stuey
No ones saying that Iranians are bad drivers, but like Italians from Rome they DO have a rather cavalier attitude to road rules.
BTW. Americans aren’t stupid, merely ignorant about the outside world. Apparently one third of Americans can’t place their own country on a map. See this video on the Miss Teen America pageant.
http://www.morningtoast.com/index.php/2007/08/im-sorry-i-missed-the-miss-teen-usa-pageant/
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stuey,
http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/publications/en/index.html
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>>not OK for you to characterise Iranians as bad drivers
Humour bypass on the left, I see…
The point is, of course, that you’re more in danger of being run over by a car in Iran that you are being strung up for being a Christian.
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I see, and so I take it you had a humour bypass on the right when you pulled people up for light-heartedly saying Americans being stupid doesn’t surprise them. In fact you said that was evidence of xenophobia. That sounds like a pretty extreme humour bypass on your behalf.
Admit it, you just like making sweeping negative statements about left wingers and greenies at every opportunity and with the slightest provocation!
P.S. please don’t label me, I don’t consider myself to be “of the left”.
P.P.S. As sleepy said:
“Same is true for terror attacks and child abuse, but you’re quite happy to condemn the perpetrators for those crimes and support “justice? for the victims in those cases, so why are you so dismissive of people getting killed merely due to their religious beliefs?”
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Russ Brown says:
“Sentiment informs me that someone who is so desperate to live here as to try and starve himself to death could be welcomed. But the idea that Panah has not received due process is unsupportable, and his supporters’ claims yesterday that there were only “relatively minor and explainable discrepancies” in the two cases made by Panah are frankly” rediculous.
http://www.publicaddress.net/default,4448.sm#post4448
Greens loose credibility
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Out, Out, Damn Spot!
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I think that people are essentially selfish. People set up their community and when they are doing well want to keep it to themselves, except for entrepreneurs who want to make big profits by selling off bits of the environment (land), and perhaps benefiting or (perhaps not) the remainder of the populace. Socialists are selfish in so far as they want to see complete osmosis amongst the worlds workers> the zillions can level out here and there. They can all be grey suited, and the great leaders charge through the cheering crowds in the landrover, waving, while swooning in the adoration.
jh
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>>Americans being stupid
But Americans aren’t stupid. The context that in which that statement was used was clearly no joke.
I’m not saying that Iranians are bad drivers. I have no idea about their overall driving standards. They’re probably no better or no worse than drivers here.
What I’m getting at is risk assessment by contrasting something very prosaic (driving) with something emotionally charged (a death sentence for conversion). Both are highly unlikely, but possible.
He might as well argue he doesn’t want to go back due to traffic concerns. That is *equally likely* to be a cause of his death, but it wouldn’t get the peace-niks lining up outside the prison, now would it?
>>you just like making sweeping negative statements about left wingers
Play the argument, not the man.
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>>so why are you so dismissive of people getting killed merely due to their religious beliefs
Because he’s making out the risk is 100%, which isn’t backed up by the facts given that there are thousands of apostates in Iran who are very much alive.
Probably driving cars…
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jh
Yes. it is ridiculous.
The screening is clearly working in most cases (although taking far too long in my view), the peace-niks have proved how gullible and easily manipulated they are, once again (Zaoui is also taking you for a ride), and we’ve possibly got genuine refugees more deserving of attention.
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PEL: “Play the argument, not the man.”
your hypocrisy knows no bounds. I always address the argument and only rarely resort to ad homs. You on the other hand are always at it (e.g. calling people xenophobic or that they are lacking in humour). Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
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Ali Panah might wish he was back in Iran, if he was living in Chch this morning>> Brrrrrr! Chch has lots of old cold houses. Now they are shoving 3 on sections where there was one…. Maybe some of the troops should be withdrawn from the Russian front. Emoticon: :cossackdancing: [if you get a moment Frog?]
jh
(bj getting some work done at last)
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>>You on the other hand are always at it
You’re not really convincing me that you have a sense of humour….
Care to address my points? What is the risk he will get killed in a traffic accident vs the risk he will get killed by a rabid crowd of rock wielding fanatics. With beards. Some of them men…… (ducks)
Heh heh.
Also, the peace-niks are twisting the argument because they lost the last one. Due process was followed. Time to warm up that seat in economy…
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PEL- the danger is not from being a Christian in Iran. Muslims in general are quite tolerant about visitors they may even have a shot at converting.
The danger for him is that he has converted to Christianity and used to be Muslim. This is considered by mainstream Islam to be punishable by death. I suggest you go pick up a copy of the Koran and have a read
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Ari
Are you seriously suggesting that we should be thankful that ” Muslims in general are quite tolerant about visitors”?
These are the same Muslims that demand their rights when they move to a Western or Christian country?
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hey BB, you still haven’t explained what you meant when you said:
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