Comments on: Solid Energy spying on lawful protesters? http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/ hopping along the corridors of power Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:26:59 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: davey http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27903 davey Sun, 03 Jun 2007 07:04:55 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27903 Why do we say it's wrong to harm humans? It generally boils down to because it causes harm. So why is it generally seen as more acceptable to harm animals than it is to harm humans? It can't be because we are more intelligent than animals, because then it would be acceptable to harm infants and the mentally disabled. So why? If you say "because humans are more important than animals" without providing any justification for that claim then there's nothing to stop racists and sexists from using the same argument, i.e. "because whites are more important than blacks" or "because men are more important than women". It's the same argument, just different groups. In my opinion the best thing to do would be to choose the course of action which causes less harm. Killing flies is generally justified because if you dont, then it is likely that they will spoil your food, thus harming more beings than just one fly. Killing pukekos may be justified on these grounds, but killing them just because we decide their lives are worth less than ours just because they are a different species is not justified. Why do we say it’s wrong to harm humans? It generally boils down to because it causes harm. So why is it generally seen as more acceptable to harm animals than it is to harm humans? It can’t be because we are more intelligent than animals, because then it would be acceptable to harm infants and the mentally disabled. So why? If you say “because humans are more important than animals” without providing any justification for that claim then there’s nothing to stop racists and sexists from using the same argument, i.e. “because whites are more important than blacks” or “because men are more important than women”. It’s the same argument, just different groups.
In my opinion the best thing to do would be to choose the course of action which causes less harm. Killing flies is generally justified because if you dont, then it is likely that they will spoil your food, thus harming more beings than just one fly. Killing pukekos may be justified on these grounds, but killing them just because we decide their lives are worth less than ours just because they are a different species is not justified.

]]> By: big bro http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27901 big bro Sun, 03 Jun 2007 06:27:27 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27901 Panda 8 Billion!.....8 Billion! Why the hell do dairy farmers drive Rextons then? Panda

8 Billion!…..8 Billion!

Why the hell do dairy farmers drive Rextons then?

]]> By: panda http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27900 panda Sun, 03 Jun 2007 05:33:12 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27900 Oh Dear Oh Dear I am not sure where to begin I am more than happy to engage in a philosophical argument but I am too busy running my farm creating the wealth this country survives on let me get this right pukeko = human ?? because it is alive ? fly = pukeko because it is alive can I kill flys if they are a pest ? gee taking your argument to its logical conclusion is a bit problematic isn't it I know you greens have decided farming is this country's great evil (eg the Green Nana's keynote speech today )but I ask you where would NZ be with out it "three key questions around a carbon emissions trading scheme, the polluting dairy industry and what National would do to help the people Mr Key had labelled the underclass. "Where will you set the cap (on emissions) John and how will you allocate the permits to trade, will they all go to the current polluters?" Ms Fitzsimons said Fonterra had set a goal of 4 per cent annual growth in the dairy industry, which meant 4 per cent more cows, more methane and more pollution" $8 Billion that's rights boys and girls $8 billion a year in foreign exchange that keeps NZ going and allows you to live in the manner to which you are accustomed I ask you now what do you want ?? how about all us farmers sell our farms pocket the coin and bugger off 12000 dairy farms worth about 3 million each employing a least 30000 kiwis earning about $8 billion a year $360 billion that's right $360 billion you know most of the time we don't know why we bother we can earn more most years putting our money in the bank Oh Dear Oh Dear
I am not sure where to begin

I am more than happy to engage in a philosophical argument but I am too busy running my farm creating the wealth this country survives on

let me get this right
pukeko = human ?? because it is alive ?
fly = pukeko because it is alive

can I kill flys if they are a pest ?

gee taking your argument to its logical conclusion is a bit problematic isn’t it

I know you greens have decided farming is this country’s great evil (eg the Green Nana’s keynote speech today )but I ask you where would NZ be with out it
“three key questions around a carbon emissions trading scheme, the polluting dairy industry and what National would do to help the people Mr Key had labelled the underclass.

“Where will you set the cap (on emissions) John and how will you allocate the permits to trade, will they all go to the current polluters?”

Ms Fitzsimons said Fonterra had set a goal of 4 per cent annual growth in the dairy industry, which meant 4 per cent more cows, more methane and more pollution”

$8 Billion that’s rights boys and girls $8 billion a year in foreign exchange
that keeps NZ going and allows you to live in the manner to which you are accustomed

I ask you now what do you want ??
how about all us farmers sell our farms pocket the coin and bugger off
12000 dairy farms
worth about 3 million each
employing a least 30000 kiwis
earning about $8 billion a year

$360 billion that’s right $360 billion

you know most of the time we don’t know why we bother

we can earn more most years putting our money in the bank

]]> By: Kevyn http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27852 Kevyn Sat, 02 Jun 2007 02:26:44 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27852 Katie, The Liberal and Reform parties that were responsible for formalising the Marginal Lands Board approach to farm development. Since they are the predeccessors of National and Labour those two parties will have to admit they jointly created the problem before they can do anything to correct the mistakes. Unfortunately politicians only admit to infalibility when it is "the other lot" who made the mistake because then it is the ideology that was wrong. If both major parties made the same mistake then politictians will do everything possible to avoid admitting that any mistake was made because that would mean admitting that politicians make mistakes. This is not a lot different from the denial stage of grief or addiction counselling, which at least tells us what politicians need to do in order to address the mistakes of their predecessors. Katie, The Liberal and Reform parties that were responsible for formalising the Marginal Lands Board approach to farm development. Since they are the predeccessors of National and Labour those two parties will have to admit they jointly created the problem before they can do anything to correct the mistakes. Unfortunately politicians only admit to infalibility when it is “the other lot” who made the mistake because then it is the ideology that was wrong. If both major parties made the same mistake then politictians will do everything possible to avoid admitting that any mistake was made because that would mean admitting that politicians make mistakes. This is not a lot different from the denial stage of grief or addiction counselling, which at least tells us what politicians need to do in order to address the mistakes of their predecessors.

]]> By: katie http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27848 katie Fri, 01 Jun 2007 23:32:44 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27848 Pukeko's, snail's or indeed kiwi's interests are not taken into acccount in any policy outside the MFE, so the philosophical argument you're proposing will be null, davey. Can't see panda engaging in it, anyway. Marginal land that has been used for pasture, such as raupo swamps and the like, will mostly dry out in the decades to come, although west coast areas may become more swampy, so panda, if you want to continue farming livestock, invest in breeding stock that swims, or gets itself out of bogs without assistance. Sheep not a good look in that context, too stupid to learn to stay out of bogs and swamps. A childhood of avoiding decaying sheep carcasses on my rides round the farm taught me that. Personally, I think there are far too many places where people were inadvisably settled after the first WW, which should be unsettled pronto to save us all the grief. Generations have struggled in some marginal areas, and if the stock agents are making more out of selling fertiliser thatn the farmer is from selling stock, there should be an incentive for the Crown to buy back marginal land and de-stock. They certainly took their time to work out how to settle the High Country land leases, so I don't expect anyone to work on this one until the climate shift has made enough paupers out of formerly prosperous farmers... Pukeko’s, snail’s or indeed kiwi’s interests are not taken into acccount in any policy outside the MFE, so the philosophical argument you’re proposing will be null, davey. Can’t see panda engaging in it, anyway.

Marginal land that has been used for pasture, such as raupo swamps and the like, will mostly dry out in the decades to come, although west coast areas may become more swampy, so panda, if you want to continue farming livestock, invest in breeding stock that swims, or gets itself out of bogs without assistance. Sheep not a good look in that context, too stupid to learn to stay out of bogs and swamps. A childhood of avoiding decaying sheep carcasses on my rides round the farm taught me that.

Personally, I think there are far too many places where people were inadvisably settled after the first WW, which should be unsettled pronto to save us all the grief. Generations have struggled in some marginal areas, and if the stock agents are making more out of selling fertiliser thatn the farmer is from selling stock, there should be an incentive for the Crown to buy back marginal land and de-stock. They certainly took their time to work out how to settle the High Country land leases, so I don’t expect anyone to work on this one until the climate shift has made enough paupers out of formerly prosperous farmers…

]]> By: davey http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27833 davey Fri, 01 Jun 2007 13:49:42 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27833 BJ I wasn't asking whose interests are more important to US, I was asking why should we believe our interests are more important than the pukekos in the grand scheme of things? BJ

I wasn’t asking whose interests are more important to US, I was asking why should we believe our interests are more important than the pukekos in the grand scheme of things?

]]> By: bjchip http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27827 bjchip Fri, 01 Jun 2007 07:49:24 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27827 Davey We are not Pukekos, therefore to us and for us, OUR interests are more important than the Pukekos. In a broad sense it makes sense to have as little impact and maintain as much ecological diversity as we can. Evolution is inherently destructive of excessive specialization and monocultural development. That doesn't mean there's a special place for Pukeko in Panda's Paddocks. Nature DOES rule over us Panda, but not at the level of the Pukeko. It rules us where the base of the food chain meets the acidified ocean and an expanding population meets an inconvenient climate for growing next years crops. respectfully BJ Davey

We are not Pukekos, therefore to us and for us, OUR interests are more important than the Pukekos. In a broad sense it makes sense to have as little impact and maintain as much ecological diversity as we can. Evolution is inherently destructive of excessive specialization and monocultural development.

That doesn’t mean there’s a special place for Pukeko in Panda’s Paddocks.

Nature DOES rule over us Panda, but not at the level of the Pukeko.

It rules us where the base of the food chain meets the acidified ocean and an expanding population meets an inconvenient climate for growing next years crops.

respectfully
BJ

]]> By: davey http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27824 davey Fri, 01 Jun 2007 06:42:26 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27824 What is a pest? Something which we have decided works contrary to our interests. By that definition, pukeko are indeed pests. But makes our interests so much more important than the pukekos? What is a pest? Something which we have decided works contrary to our interests. By that definition, pukeko are indeed pests. But makes our interests so much more important than the pukekos?

]]> By: kiore1 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27819 kiore1 Fri, 01 Jun 2007 05:02:23 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27819 How do you kow what sort of world I live in? You don't know me, so be careful making those sort of arrogant biographical assumptions without proof. Sneering and jeering is not an argument. Your response shows all the intelligence of "yah, booh, sucks" How do you kow what sort of world I live in? You don’t know me, so be careful making those sort of arrogant biographical assumptions without proof. Sneering and jeering is not an argument. Your response shows all the intelligence of “yah, booh, sucks”

]]> By: panda http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27818 panda Fri, 01 Jun 2007 04:35:20 +0000 http://blog.greens.org.nz/2007/05/27/solid-energy-spying-on-lawful-protesters/#comment-27818 Oh my GAWD at real life pukeko hugger the damn things are pests, they root up paddocks like little pigs destroying the root system of clover plants which causes severe damage to my pasture I know you live in a delusional world where nature rules over us humans but in the real world where the rest of us live in we have the ability and duty to protect our investments and livelihood Oh my GAWD
at real life pukeko hugger
the damn things are pests, they root up paddocks like little pigs destroying the root system of clover plants which causes severe damage to my pasture

I know you live in a delusional world where nature rules over us humans but in the real world where the rest of us live in we have the ability and duty to protect our investments and livelihood

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